Backs for architecture/commercial photography

[Danijela D. Karic]

Danijela..you can contact view pictures directly regarding the event.

marc
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100964\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Marc,

Since I  am definitely missing this one, I thought Yair is part of the program and that he may know the future schedule.

Thanks anyway

Regards
Danijela

[Danijela D. Karic]

the brumbaer tool is reducing the needs for a mf back software to its absolutely minimum, but delivering the optimum in quality. little bit like good valve amplifiers.....

1. it safes the raw files from the back to the hard disc, without converting them to any other format as *.mos or *.sti or whatever. so you can save the pure imager data for archiving.

the dng converter also reads and converts to dng the files written by capture shop,- also files from the 54H back ( but not so sophisticated till now ) as well as emotion 22+75 ( here it works "perfect").

2. it writes after that *.dng files, meanwhile the writing procedure is removed the centerfold stitch from the dalsa sensor ( a software code the leaf programmers havent been able to write or to COPY till now... greatings to yaya here :,- ). also it is possible - if desired - to calculate in the dng a white reference shot , similar as capture does with its lcc and leaf with its gain adjuster,- but in a very sophisticated way regarding long time exposure moise and other things.
the white references are used in the right moment in a batch, so you have not to care about them after you have shot them subsequently. thats a great workflow help for architectural use with shift cameras. with normal mf cameras usually one white reference is enough for all lenses, at least with my 5 contax and 4 hassy lenses it works with one reference.

two color profiles are used for the conversion and they are seamingless blended, a.e. you can take one profile ( made with a color checker ) with daylight and one profile with tungsten light and the dngconverter blends from one to the other profile, depending on the color temperature you have used meanwhile shooting.

it implements in the *.dng files highlight information, meanwhile other programms cut them out after a certain point, stephan is providing these informarions to the conversion program ( as lightroom or whatever ) in a form that it can recover highlights mostly perfect neutral. so it gains about 1 till 2 stops !!! compared to the files from other software /manfufactors .
thats an absolute great feature, you have not longer to care much about clouds and windows,- it works really impressive well.

there are several other little tools available from brumbaer.
one tool let you find to each *.ia file the corresponding *.br file. usefull for sinar owners, not worth to explain here...
one tool for tethered shooting. simple but functional.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100952\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Theoretically it is pretty straightforward to digest. I will see how everything makes sense in the real life scenario.

I didn't know that e75 has internal storage capacity. That is actually very, very good idea. How many MB? how does it hold in the winter?

Regards
Danijela

[Danijela D. Karic]

Hi Thierry,

Are e75 files compatible with Lightroom?

If the answer is no, what about the near future?

Regards
Danijela

[Danijela D. Karic]

Att: [span style=\'font-size:11pt;line-height:100%\']Thierry[/span]

Att: [span style=\'font-size:11pt;line-height:100%\']Steve Hendrix[/span]

Att: [span style=\'font-size:11pt;line-height:100%\']Phase One[/span] - I don't know anybody here from Phase, is there someone? Where is the dazzling Praetorian Guard?

Att: [span style=\'font-size:11pt;line-height:100%\']Yaya[/span]


Using digital back in cold/warm weather with the ground glass off and on, how does the DB hold in the winter/summer/moisture/particles/etc.? Perhaps Cambo, Gottschalt, Linhof 679 are using Sliding Adapters and therefore there is no need for removing the GG, but that's not the case with ALPA.

I would appreciate your opinion on the camera such as ALPA or any other for that matter when used without the sliding adapter, how do the associated DBs hold
under these conditions.

Thank you

Regards
Danijela

[thsinar]

Danijela,

the eMotion 75 has an internal storage capacity of 6 GB (the e22 has 4 GB). The important point is that it is not a harddrive memory, subject to shocks and mechanical problems. It is a very secure hard state memory.

The other nice thing of this is that this internal 6 GB are used as a buffer: means you won't have any slowndown while shooting. Shoot at full speed until this internal memory is full, without any slowdown.

Hope this answers.

Thierry

Theoretically it is pretty straightforward to digest. I will see how everything makes sense in the real life scenario.

I didn't know that e75 has internal storage capacity. That is actually very, very good idea. How many MB? how does it hold in the winter?

Regards
Danijela
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100996\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[thsinar]

hi Danijela,

Yes, Lightroom supports dng's coming from the eMotion backs (75 or 22): as explained by Rainer's workflow in his post above.

Interesting to read is Sefan's (Brumbaer) opinion on dng files in the tread "MFDB and DNG":

here the link:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....topic=13131&hl=

thierry

Hi Thierry,

Are e75 files compatible with Lightroom?

If the answer is no, what about the near future?

Regards
Danijela
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100998\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[Danijela D. Karic]

Danijela,

the eMotion 75 has an internal storage capacity of 6 GB (the e22 has 4 GB). The important point is that it is not a harddrive memory, subject to shocks and mechanical problems. It is a very secure hard state memory.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101002\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[span style=\'font-size:11pt;line-height:100%\']Excellent, excellent idea!!![/span] Also, Sinar needs to improve their screen and perhaps make it a bit bigger like the one LEAF has.

I am sorry but so many people fall for Leaf DBs just because of the 6x7 Screen, including myself. If they didn't have their CF/Software issues/etc., I know Leaf DB would top my list for sure.
 
Of course their mistake is permissible, but the way they handled it it's not.

The other nice thing of this is that this internal 6 GB are used as a buffer: means you won't have any slowndown while shooting. Shoot at full speed until this internal memory is full, without any slowdown.

Hope this answers.

Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101002\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

So the speed of the CF card is of no advantage/value in this case. What about
the speed of the frame per second, is it improved because of the secure hard state memory?

Is Sinar coming out with the new model like P45+/A75s or something like that,
and what should we expect to see. I hope they will have it on PMA.

Regards
Danijela

[thsinar]

Danijela,

the eMotion backs are usually used with a sliding adapter.

As for my experience under hot/cold temp conditions, here my experiences (as a photographer, not as Sinar's rep.   ):

- I have been assisting Rainer in his Suvarnabhumi airport shooting under extrem hot temperatures and humidity, and sometimes extrem dusty conditions with the trucks around, in Bangkok last year. We had days with 50°C. The issue you have to care about at this temperatures is the noise produced with e22, (the e75 is less an issue): shooting as much as possible with nominal ISO (50) and creating a black reference for each image (the eMotion allows it) is reducing the noise level to the minimum possible. Rainer can certainly extrapolate here.

- Cold conditions: the only issue I had under very cold (-15°C or under) weather conditions is the batteries' life time which can be reduced dramatically. It's advicable to keepp them warm.

But that was by using the back on Rainer's Gotschalk with or on the Sinar m MF camera, this was not with an Alpa.

Thierry

Using digital back in cold/warm weather
Thank you

Regards
Danijela
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101001\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[thsinar]

Danijela,

Some information about the display used on eMotion backs: it is smaller than the one on Aptus, that's for sure. But then I would suggest you to go out and test and compare it on location. We are not using a display with LCD technology, but an OLED display (Organic Light Emitting Diode). Advantages are that you can view it from any angle and general brightness is about 1 stop higher. I dont say that it is sufficient under sunny conditions, but brighter.

Shooting Rate: it is improved in the sense that you won't have any slowdown: the internal memory of 6 GB is the buffer, and as long it is not full you can shoot (0.9sec/frame with the e22 and 1.4 sec/frame with the e75), continuously!

I must say here that we are always working on issues like speed and shooting rate, but IMO, the little sign "+" we have it since the begining   , and I hope I won't be accused to try to sell a product. Anyway: try and see by yourself.

Then: we are effectively coming out with our own "+" series, the eMotion 54 LV and the new eMotion 75 LV, in April. So the chance that you see them at PMA is slim. What's new? These 2 new eMotion backs will first have Live Video capability, but not only. They are fitted with new internal electronic hardware improving quality and high ISO.

Speed of CF cards/ shooting rate: of course, this is important as well. You have the choice to write/store your files 3 different ways in the eMotion:

- Internal Storage Only
- Internal Storage AND CF Card
- CF Card

For the 2 last the speed of the CF card is of importance. However, you can still continue shooting while it is writing on CF card, because you have these 6 GB "kind of Buffer".

Best,
Thierry

[span style=\'font-size:11pt;line-height:100%\']Excellent, excellent idea!!![/span] Also, Sinar needs to improve their screen and perhaps make it a bit bigger like the one LEAF has.

I am sorry but so many people fall for Leaf DBs just because of the 6x7 Screen, including myself. If they didn't have their CF/Software issues/etc., I know Leaf DB would top my list for sure.
 
Of course their mistake is permissible, but the way they handled it it's not.
So the speed of the CF card is of no advantage/value in this case. What about
the speed of the frame per second, is it improved because of the secure hard state memory?

Is Sinar coming out with the new model like P45+/A75s or something like that,
and what should we expect to see. I hope they will have it on PMA.

Regards
Danijela
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101004\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[rainer_v]

with e75+e22 no issues in cold weather ( -5 till -10 degrees, colder havent used it ). i was not aware of shortened battery life, although for sure it should be so, but at least at this temperatures not dramatically.
in hot weather with the e22 longer exposures than 4 seconds showed noise in temperatures over 40degrees ( if the back- body + electronic got hot cause beeing hours in this temperature ) ,- was not aware of problems here with the e75.
no problems with moisture,- even when i had to wait 30 minutes till the lenses became dry for condensation.


the oled display helps, the image is still visible in sunlight,- but you have to increase the brightness to 5 where the letters are difficult to read and to see the motif good you have still to shade with your hands.
but its better than the other mf displays i know for exterior work. for interior i would be happy also with a bigger display as the leaf has,- on the other hand the viewing angle of the sinar display and its brightness is thn very good.

[yaya]

Hi Marc,

Since I  am definitely missing this one, I thought Yair is part of the program and that he may know the future schedule.

Thanks anyway

Regards
Danijela
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100994\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No, I am not a part of the programme,

Some of these people use digital backs which is why they know us and why they've invited us to attend the open day.

I hope this helps

Yair

[yaya]

( a software code the leaf programmers havent been able to write or to COPY till now... greatings to yaya here :,- ).

I think we've been through this discussion before and my advice would be to stick to what you KNOW and not to what you DON'T know.

We already have two different tools for dealing with this issue and they both deal with it quite well (and fast), while keeping the RAW file as a RAW so it can still be processed through LeafCapture, Raw Developer, ACR, LightRoom, Bibble etc.

Nothing is perfect (yet). Still, to blame someone for copying without knowing what you're talking about is a dangerous game.

Best regards,

Yair

[rainer_v]

I think we've been through this discussion before and my advice would be to stick to what you KNOW and not to what you DON'T know.

We already have two different tools for dealing with this issue and they both deal with it quite well (and fast), while keeping the RAW file as a RAW so it can still be processed through LeafCapture, Raw Developer, ACR, LightRoom, Bibble etc.

Nothing is perfect (yet). Still, to blame someone for copying without knowing what you're talking about is a dangerous game.

Best regards,

Yair
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101017\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

i dont think i am blaming you, although you did that several times with my work in a direct or indirect way. which is  i.m.o. for a representant of a well reputated company as leaf maybe not "dangerous" but for sure bad taste ( whats the hell you want to say with the word "dangerous" ?? ) . it is  bad and unfair behavor to blame images from me or my work in general in the public in a consciently wrong way, just because it has been shown by another company. same about your last post against my work,- although here even not beeing brave enough to use my name in that discussion. know what i  mean?

[Dustbak]

With regard to the Leaf screen. Yes, it is large but it also has a few drawbacks.
 
When using the DB outside the image on the screen is very quickly difficult to see. Just a little bit more light will render it virtually useless.

Inside however it is a very nice usable screen.

When your work is mainly outside I would definitely opt for a quality screen even if it is significantly smaller or learn to use histograms well.

[thsinar]

I think it's important here to inform that "rehnniar" has been much involved and closely worked together with Stefan Hess to write and develop the Brumbaer Tools to overcome and solve the sensor's centrefold effect he had with his eMotion back

It was a day after day work over the whole period of his shooting of the Bangkok airport. Certainly a long process of testing and improving the software, step by step. Sometimes going the wrong way, sometimes making progress.
This software has been written to correct and eliminate the now famous "Centrefold" effect, as well as to find a way to integrate an automatic correction of colour casts issues (due to lenses or shifts) by applying "white references" on images in a batch and fully automated process and workflow. In addition, he helped also to develop the integrated highlight recovery in these Brumbaer software, keeping details in otherwise burnt out parts of the images, due to the way other softwares cut off the highlights.

Stefan Hess was then kind enough to accept to work together with Sinar to integrate his code as well in our Captureshop software to solve the sensor's centrefold effect problem as well with our soft. I think this qualifies Rainer to speak about this problem and how Stefan and him solved it.

Thierry

the brumbaer tool is reducing the needs for a mf back software to its absolutely minimum, but delivering the optimum in quality. little bit like good valve amplifiers.....

[rainer_v]

edited my older post a little bit to calm something here.

[Danijela D. Karic]

the brumbaer tool is reducing the needs for a mf back software to its absolutely minimum, but delivering the optimum in quality. little bit like good valve amplifiers.....

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100952\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

His tools, are they part of the Sianr's new EXPOSURE software?

1. it safes the raw files from the back to the hard disc, without converting them to any other format as *.mos or *.sti or whatever. so you can save the pure imager data for archiving.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100952\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[span style=\'font-size:11pt;line-height:100%\']:Before we open the files in Lightroom:[/span]

Assuming the photos are already exposed and you are on the way to Home/Studio/etc. Am I right in saying that at the very beginning you can bypass Sinars Capture Shop software if you have Braumbaer Tools?

If so, with the Braumbaer Tools I can save the raw files to HD,DVD,etc. without converting them to any other format as *.mos or *.sti or whatever, Basically I can save the pure images data for archiving without literally any modification/irritation.

the dng converter also reads and converts to dng the files written by capture shop,- also files from the 54H back ( but not so sophisticated till now ) as well as emotion 22+75 ( here it

works "perfect").

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100952\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

So the Brumbear Tools dng converter also reads and converts to dng the files written by capture shop. Is this the time where CF/Lcc/are Corected. If so,
does it mean that the nue files/images or already archived from Capture Shop are still showing the CF issue and if, why use Capture Shop at all if that is the case?

Second thought,

Is CF issue apparent in the Capture Shop Raw files and when converted to dng still the same story happens because of the poor conversion/correction or else...?
and therefore Brumbear Tools are there just complimenting the whole process with aid to correct the apparent flaws. If that is the case, I strongly hope you can use the Brumbear Tools by it self.

2. it writes after that *.dng files, meanwhile the writing procedure is removed the centerfold stitch from the dalsa sensor ( a software code the leaf programmers havent wrote till now... greatings to yaya here :,- ). also it is possible - if desired - to calculate in the dng a white reference shot , similar as capture does with its lcc and leaf with its gain adjuster,- but in a very sophisticated way regarding long time exposure moise and other things.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100952\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Do you mean when the files are open in Brumbear Tools as a raw file images, Brumbear Tools writes after that *.dng files, and during this writing procedure centerfold stitch is removed from the dalsa sensor, so that basically all of the files are clean without the flaws, or is it something entirely different where you have to correct the files yourself individually with the Brumbear Tools using/saving associated reference profiles/etc.

also it is possible - if desired - to calculate in the dng a white reference shot , similar as capture does with its lcc and leaf with its gain adjuster,- but in a very sophisticated way regarding long time exposure moise and other things.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100952\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Very nice, to calculate in a very sophisticated way regarding long time exposure how?, in what way?

the white references are used in the right moment in a batch, so you have not to care about them after you have shot them subsequently. thats a great workflow help for architectural use with shift cameras. with normal mf cameras usually one white reference is enough for all lenses, at least with my 5 contax and 4 hassy lenses it works with one reference.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100952\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What is the speed of batch processing per image using e75 Files. I know Phase: CaptureOne is very fast software, however I was not impressed with the speed of single file when Batch processing much less when you have hundreds of images.

it implements in the *.dng files highlight information, meanwhile other programms cut them out after a certain point, stephan is providing these informarions to the conversion program ( as lightroom or whatever ) in a form that it can recover highlights mostly perfect neutral. so it gains about 1 till 2 stops !!! compared to the files from other software /manfufactors . thats an absolute great feature, you have not longer to care much about clouds and windows,- it works really impressive well.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100952\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I am so excited about this one because every camera you use today somehow feels like you are missing highlights, perfect exposure included. I basically
have to sandwich 3 or more images to recover highlights in some parts, if brumbaer tools can improve the highlights that much so that I don't have to worry as much about clouds and windows just like you said, then that is really, really NICE!!!.

there are several other little tools available from brumbaer.
one tool let you find to each *.ia file the corresponding *.br file. usefull for sinar owners, not worth to explain here...

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100952\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Love to know about it a bit more. Is there a SINAR FORUM?

one tool for tethered shooting. simple but functional.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=100952\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Oh, almost forgot to ask about tethered shooting, Do you need a cable with e75 or is it wireless?

[span style=\'font-size:14pt;line-height:100%\']SCREEN SHOTS!!![/span] on the above procedure would really HELP since I don't even have the software, it is all theoretical at this point but you guys realize, it is very important!!!

Perhaps, Thierry could post some too?

If you guys don't feel comfortable about the Screen Shots or any of the subjects above, you can send it through PM.

REGARDS
Danijela

[Danijela D. Karic]

With regard to the Leaf screen. Yes, it is large but it also has a few drawbacks.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101022\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I agree but I was referring to the 6x7 actual area as something desirable by others including myself, not their quality.

When using the DB outside the image on the screen is very quickly difficult to see. Just a little bit more light will render it virtually useless.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101022\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I know but Leaf is not the only one on this one. Which Digital Back do you use?

Inside however it is a very nice usable screen.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101022\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I agree.

When your work is mainly outside I would definitely opt for a quality screen even if it is significantly smaller or learn to use histograms well.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=101022\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I am planning to shoot tethered with a little monster Mac. But cruising Morocco/etc. you can't just set-up your system in the middle of the street and behave like: yes, that happens every other minute. People get intimidated by any kind of equipment wherever you go, not only Morocco. That is where nice 6x7 would come handy. Learning to use histograms well is imperative these days. Do you have any short-cut/literature/Books/Links to suggest.


Regards
Danijela

[rainer_v]

posted double... see next ...

[rainer_v]

His tools, are they part of the Sianr's new EXPOSURE software?

i think that codes will be implemented, but thierry has to speak here.

Assuming the photos are already exposed and you are on the way to Home/Studio/etc. Am I right in saying that at the very beginning you can bypass Sinars Capture Shop software if you have Braumbaer Tools?

yes.

If so, with the Braumbaer Tools I can save the raw files to HD,DVD,etc. without converting them to any other format as *.mos or *.sti or whatever, Basically I can save the pure images data for archiving without literally any modification/irritation.

yes.

So the Brumbear Tools dng converter also reads and converts to dng the files written by capture shop. Is this the time where CF/Lcc/are Corected.

only with .sti files from the aerea where captureshop has not had the cf-removal code implemented, but it use the same code form stephan  since several months.

If so,
does it mean that the nue files/images or already archived from Capture Shop are still showing the CF issue and if, why use Capture Shop at all if that is the case?

no. captureshop removes the cf issue in any case, in the same way as the programm from stephan.

Second thought,
Is CF issue apparent in the Capture Shop Raw files and when converted to dng still the same story happens because of the poor conversion/correction or else...?
and therefore Brumbear Tools are there just complimenting the whole process with aid to correct the apparent flaws. If that is the case, I strongly hope you can use the Brumbear Tools by it self.

you can sue the tools by itself, but as i said before. the .sti files already dont have anymore the cf issue.

Do you mean when the files are open in Brumbear Tools as a raw file images, Brumbear Tools writes after that *.dng files, and during this writing procedure centerfold stitch is removed from the dalsa sensor, so that basically all of the files are clean without the flaws, or is it something entirely different where you have to correct the files yourself individually with the Brumbear Tools using/saving associated reference profiles/etc.

so is it. means: you have not to do anything to remove the cf effect, it is corrected automatically in every file. no white shots or whatevere are nessesary therefor.

Very nice, to calculate in a very sophisticated way regarding long time exposure how?, in what way?

well, to explain this in detail leads to far. but to give an easy example: if the white shot is a long exposure a.e. with 20 seconds the white refence itself will show noise. if you do not remove it, it will be added to the noise the image data shows . it makes a substantiell difference for the final image which "quality" has the white file. sounds easy, but in practice appear many sideeffects if you just "denoise" them.

What is the speed of batch processing per image using e75 Files. I know Phase: CaptureOne is very fast software, however I was not impressed with the speed of single file when Batch processing much less when you have hundreds of images.

i have not my g5 quad here, only my g4 laptop 1,67Ghz power pc.
it needs for one e75 file conversion to dng: 13seconds. here a white reference file was used during the conversion.

I am so excited about this one because every camera you use today somehow feels like you are missing highlights, perfect exposure included. I basically
have to sandwich 3 or more images to recover highlights in some parts, if brumbaer tools can improve the highlights that much so that I don't have to worry as much about clouds and windows just like you said, then that is really, really NICE!!!.

yes it is great.

Love to know about it a bit more. Is there a SINAR FORUM?

yes there is one, although i dont know how it runs cause i am never there.

Oh, almost forgot to ask about tethered shooting, Do you need a cable with e75 or is it wireless?

firewire cable.

[span style=\'font-size:14pt;line-height:100%\']SCREEN SHOTS!!![/span] on the above procedure would really HELP since I don't even have the software, it is all theoretical at this point but you guys realize, it is very important!!!

what will show you the screenshots more than you cant see in the programm itself?
you can download it here:

http://www.brumbaer.de/Tools/Tools.html

there are  newer versions available if you mail to stephan, but no difference from the user interface. ( [email protected] )