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Author Topic: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa  (Read 1299640 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3160 on: December 01, 2020, 04:08:27 pm »

Back to Covid. Chinese sociologist Dr. Li Yi said in an October 16, 2020 speech delivered at the Shenzhenwan Dialogue Forum in Shenzhen, China that China would overtake the United States in GDP by 2027, and that COVID-19 has been harmful to the U.S. and Europe but beneficial to China and North Korea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ig8zjMxzBZ4&feature=youtu.be
I only hope that the Biden administration realizes China is an adversary and acts accordingly.

One comment about North Korea.  They are really suffering because of Covid.  They have recently shut down commerce to practically zero with China, basically their only trading partner,  to avoid human contact so fearful are they of it spreading in NK where they have little medical facilities to handle it. 

James Clark

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3161 on: December 01, 2020, 04:12:30 pm »

State legislatures make the rules.  If you don't like what the rules say, change them.  Oh wait, thats what a bunch of Judges did prior to the election.  My bad.

"IF" (and I'm well aware that none has been proven yet) there is fraud that is yet uncovered, one person one vote is already out the window.  A LOT of really hinky shit happened in this election.  Is it fraud?  I guess it depends on how you - and the law - define fraud.

Ultimately, and in a general sense, in a nation that is governed by the consent of the people, "fraud" ought to be a measure of actions that work to deliberately undermine the desires of the governed (in my opinion of course).  So while things like extending the window for voting, increasing the places for voting, and making it easier to vote may in some instances diverge from the text of a statute, votes received under those conditions *still reflect the will of the people* and perhaps more (most?) importantly, so long as those accommodations are available to *everyone equally* in order to facilitate the ability to have input, I would have a very very hard time invalidating or considering that fraudulent.   If, on the other hand, an individuals ability to have their voice registered is infringed - say by having their ballot changed, or having influence exerted on their choice - I'm all on board with considering that to be fraud.

It also goes to the larger question of democracy, the consent of the governed, and the interaction between the will of the majority of the people and the ability of the minority to retain baseline rights in the face of a larger state that may disagree with  them.  In this case, in dozens upon dozens of attempts, no one has been able to show that this second kind of fraud - the one where someone's voice is altered or silenced - has occurred in any way that would impact the outcome of the election. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3162 on: December 01, 2020, 04:12:34 pm »

His son tweeted this
I don't think legal proceedings are usually referred to as "Total War" but it must be his youthful enthausiasm if he really didn't mean to imply some kind of violence to get his way.

And this call for violence by one of his lawyers doesnt look too good either:
And now Barr is joining Krebs: US Justice department has found no evidence of widespread voter fraud

I wonder when he is shown the same door as Krebs and starts getting death threats by Trump Lawyers, telling the truth should be lethal according to some alt-right morons, especially when they remember the presidential advice of "stand back but stand by"'. I hope with all my heart that they are not going to mobilise the troops that were addressed with that statement.



Relax.  It's hyperbole. No one's shooting anyone.  And we're not going to war. After five years of Trump, you should know better.  He speaks figuratively.  Don't take him literally. 

faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3163 on: December 01, 2020, 04:12:54 pm »

Minority viewpoints and groups don't have the vote.  That's why they need protection by a constitution.  It's always the majority to fear unless the minority has guns. But then, they have to face the majority as well who have guns, at least in America.  In other countries where guns have been confiscated like Cuba and Venezuela, the minority gets guns, and the majority loses.  That's why our 2nd Amendment right to bear arms is so important.  Sorry to go off on a tangent.

Sigh.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3164 on: December 01, 2020, 04:13:34 pm »

Ah, that explains:
Giuliani Is Said to Have Discussed a Pardon With Trump
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/01/us/politics/rudy-giuliani-pardon.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

Typical NYT bullshit story...

"according to two people told of the discussion."
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James Clark

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3165 on: December 01, 2020, 04:19:01 pm »


Barr just got his mojo back with Trump....

Barr names Durham Special Counsel in Russia probe.

https://dbdailyupdate.com/2020/12/01/boom-barr-converts-durham-to-special-counsel-in-russia-probe/

Got my fingers crossed that he can figure out where I left that laptop that I stashed in Delaware last time I visited my parents.  My dad was DoJ for 20-some years, so there's a decent chance that pic of me snaking a beer in college could be a game-changer.

If he's looking for bigger fish to fry, I hear Trey Gowdy wants to talk to Hillary about Benghazi again.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3166 on: December 01, 2020, 04:19:16 pm »

Ultimately, and in a general sense, in a nation that is governed by the consent of the people, "fraud" ought to be a measure of actions that work to deliberately undermine the desires of the governed (in my opinion of course).  So while things like extending the window for voting, increasing the places for voting, and making it easier to vote may in some instances diverge from the text of a statute, votes received under those conditions *still reflect the will of the people* and perhaps more (most?) importantly, so long as those accommodations are available to *everyone equally* in order to facilitate the ability to have input, I would have a very very hard time invalidating or considering that fraudulent.   If, on the other hand, an individuals ability to have their voice registered is infringed - say by having their ballot changed, or having influence exerted on their choice - I'm all on board with considering that to be fraud.

On this point I completely disagree.  Change it in the legislature and its fine by me. Change it by judical fiat and its not.


Quote
It also goes to the larger question of democracy, the consent of the governed, and the interaction between the will of the majority of the people and the ability of the minority to retain baseline rights in the face of a larger state that may disagree with  them.  In this case, in dozens upon dozens of attempts, no one has been able to show that this second kind of fraud - the one where someone's voice is altered or silenced - has occurred in any way that would impact the outcome of the election.

I agree that this fraud has yet to be proven but its getting interesting. Time will tell.
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James Clark

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3167 on: December 01, 2020, 04:20:18 pm »

Relax.  It's hyperbole. No one's shooting anyone.

Well, I man, unless we're talking about a big man on a canned hunt shooting a kitty.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3168 on: December 01, 2020, 04:20:46 pm »

Got my fingers crossed that he can figure out where I left that laptop that I stashed in Delaware last time I visited my parents.  My dad was DoJ for 20-some years, so there's a decent chance that pic of me snaking a beer in college could be a game-changer.

If he's looking for bigger fish to fry, I hear Trey Gowdy wants to talk to Hillary about Benghazi again.

Joke all you want but the FBI for certain is guilty as sin.  At least in my opinion. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3169 on: December 01, 2020, 04:23:45 pm »

Ultimately, and in a general sense, in a nation that is governed by the consent of the people, "fraud" ought to be a measure of actions that work to deliberately undermine the desires of the governed (in my opinion of course).  So while things like extending the window for voting, increasing the places for voting, and making it easier to vote may in some instances diverge from the text of a statute, votes received under those conditions *still reflect the will of the people* and perhaps more (most?) importantly, so long as those accommodations are available to *everyone equally* in order to facilitate the ability to have input, I would have a very very hard time invalidating or considering that fraudulent.   If, on the other hand, an individuals ability to have their voice registered is infringed - say by having their ballot changed, or having influence exerted on their choice - I'm all on board with considering that to be fraud.

It also goes to the larger question of democracy, the consent of the governed, and the interaction between the will of the majority of the people and the ability of the minority to retain baseline rights in the face of a larger state that may disagree with  them.  In this case, in dozens upon dozens of attempts, no one has been able to show that this second kind of fraud - the one where someone's voice is altered or silenced - has occurred in any way that would impact the outcome of the election. 
You can't have rules made up on the fly.  A legal system can't operate that way.  No one will know what's going on and people can bend the rules to fit their purpose against others. Can you imagine a soccer game where one side changes the rules to make their formerly illegal offside kick legal so their point counts. After all, he did kick the ball.  Who cares from where?   

What kind of game would that be?

James Clark

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3170 on: December 01, 2020, 04:25:20 pm »

On this point I completely disagree.  Change it in the legislature and its fine by me. Change it by judical fiat and its not.


To clarify, I'm not saying it's fine - if the outcome is that the PA court was incorrect in extending a deadline to receive ballots, I don't really have a problem with that, but it's tough to convince me that the mail arriving a day later than I expected means that the intent of the voters has been infringed, which is sort of my point.  The goal in an election ought to be to most accurately reflect the desires of those of us subject to the jurisdiction of the elected official.  Yes, there's a whole lot more that goes into this - dark money, out-of-state contributions etc. but in a *general sense* the most important factor, again, IMHO, is reinforcing the consent of the governed.
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James Clark

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3171 on: December 01, 2020, 04:28:08 pm »

You can't have rules made up on the fly.  A legal system can't operate that way.  No one will know what's going on and people can bend the rules to fit their purpose against others. Can you imagine a soccer game where one side changes the rules to make their formerly illegal offside kick legal so their point counts. After all, he did kick the ball.  Who cares from where?   

What kind of game would that be?

*But this is exactly what Trump is doing RIGHT NOW Alan*  The more appropriate analogy would be if the rules were changed prior to kickoff, neither team objected, then when the winning team won because of the rules change, the losers started saying they won, and told their fans to storm the field :/
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3172 on: December 01, 2020, 04:32:53 pm »

*But this is exactly what Trump is doing RIGHT NOW Alan*  The more appropriate analogy would be if the rules were changed prior to kickoff, neither team objected, then when the winning team won because of the rules change, the losers started saying they won, and told their fans to storm the field :/
He's not changing the rules that the courts are accepting. That's how democracy and our legal system work.  What could be fairer?

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3173 on: December 01, 2020, 04:40:05 pm »

faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3174 on: December 01, 2020, 04:48:22 pm »

Here we go again.

Barr appoints special counsel in Russia probe investigation
https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-donald-trump-robert-mueller-statutes-elections-ae0275b4eb23981c1e6fbf9fc49c3239

That doesn't bother me in the slightest. If some wrongdoing has occurred, it can be addressed. If no wrongdoing has occurred, then those who were investigated will be able to whine about it being a hoax and a witch hunt for the rest of their lives. As long as I don't have to listen to their whining every night on TV, they are more than welcome to do so.

Now what about an investigation into the investigation investigating the investigation?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2020, 05:08:00 pm by faberryman »
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faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3175 on: December 01, 2020, 05:10:02 pm »

He's not changing the rules that the courts are accepting.

I don’t have any idea what meaning that statement is intended to convey.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3176 on: December 01, 2020, 05:13:23 pm »

To clarify, I'm not saying it's fine - if the outcome is that the PA court was incorrect in extending a deadline to receive ballots, I don't really have a problem with that, but it's tough to convince me that the mail arriving a day later than I expected means that the intent of the voters has been infringed, which is sort of my point.  The goal in an election ought to be to most accurately reflect the desires of those of us subject to the jurisdiction of the elected official.  Yes, there's a whole lot more that goes into this - dark money, out-of-state contributions etc. but in a *general sense* the most important factor, again, IMHO, is reinforcing the consent of the governed.

Where do you draw the line?  If the rules say votes need to be recieved by a certain time and date and everyone knows the rules, is it ok to just say ah heck, lets just add another day, or maybe two or even another week?  Why even have the rules?  Now that said if the Legislature decides to change the rules to allow an extra week, and they do it 'by the rules" I'm perfectly fine with that. 
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3177 on: December 01, 2020, 05:14:38 pm »

One here is spouting typical BS speculations/opinions again. One is posting a report that may or not end up being a correct report.
As is so often the case here, you don’t have a freaking idea what happened or was said between Trump and Giuliani nor the two sources who may have been there but you are certain it's BS. In 50 days we will know whether or not what was reported is true or not.

So you agree its totally BS reporting.  Thanks for that admission.
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digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3178 on: December 01, 2020, 05:18:16 pm »

So you agree its totally BS reporting.
I never said that so no.
I'm willing to wait on the facts. I might say that when the facts present themselves in 50 days or less.
This is where we greatly differ.
Quote
Thanks for that admission.
No such admission; another assumption.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2020, 05:21:40 pm by digitaldog »
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3179 on: December 01, 2020, 05:25:17 pm »

I never said that so no.
I'm willing to wait on the facts. I might say that when the facts present themselves in 50 days or less.
This is where we greatly differ.No such admission; another assumption.

So you have no facts but you promote a story which has no facts either, but the story is not BS.  Got it.

But waiting 50 days might not reveal the facts even IF Trump would pardon Rudy.  The story and your denial are complete BS.

So exactly what IS the story then if its not BS?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2020, 05:33:01 pm by Craig Lamson »
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