US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)

Biden

14 (66.7%)

Trump

7 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: November 02, 2020, 06:25:59 pm

[hogloff]

It doesn't matter if he has the constitutional authority.  Politically, he'll look like he's trying to help the unemployed while the Democrats are refusing to fund it.

Still playing politics as the people die. 162,000+, tic toc, tic toc, tic toc...

[PeterAit]

Well-reported piece by Julian Barnes in the New York Times today about the latest assessments by U.S. intelligence agencies regarding the attempts by Russia and China to interfere in the November U.S. presidential election.

China and Russia are on opposite sides here, so maybe they'll cancel each other out and the American people can decide this one on their own.

[Chris Kern]

China and Russia are on opposite sides here, so maybe they'll cancel each other out and the American people can decide this one on their own.

Clearly the American people can make a decision on their own if they base their votes on reliable, uninfiltrated information sources.  Alas, given recent experience, that doesn't seem likely.

In any event, it does not appear from the publicly-available intelligence assessment that the Chinese government and individuals working at its behest are currently trying to influence or disrupt the election the way the Russian government is.

The threat from China is more in the nature of its economic and technical influence―particularly the real possibility that concealed firmware "hooks" in communication infrastructure devices manufactured in China (e.g. switches used for high-speed wireless transmission) will be exploited by the Chinese government to steal intellectual property, and that mobile application software will be used to eavesdrop on researchers in the United States and its allies.

The threat from Russia involves its attempt to corrupt our election system.  Not just to influence the outcome of the presidential election in Trump's favor, if it can, but to provoke doubt among voters about the legitimacy of the democratic process.  Based on the information that has been released by the director of U.S. intelligence, it appears the Russians are using the same techniques they used in 2016.

The Chinese approach is more subtle and long-term, albeit not ultimately less dangerous―in the long term.  But given how the Russian efforts played out in 2016, Putin's government appears the be the more imminent threat.

[hogloff]

Putin's government appears the be the more imminent threat.

I think the biggest imminent threat spends equal time in the White House and the golf club.

[Alan Klein]

The House passed another relief bill 3 months ago.  It's sitting rotting on McConnell's desk as we speak, because politics.  So, for the third time then, why is it all the Democrats' fault?

Because the Democrats refuse to extend the PPP for unemployed people unless they also get money to give to the state treasuries.  Both sides want to give money to the unemployed, so they should just do it.  Discuss other funding is a separate issue for another bill.  The Democrats are tying the unemployment funding to state relief. 

[Alan Klein]

The Democrats who run the House already passed a bill for the unemployed and to extend the PPP. It's the Republicans under Majority Leader McConnell that run the Senate. So the Republicans are holding it up. If the Democrats ran the Senate too, the ill would have passed Congress already and signed by Trump and the unemployed would be getting their PPP checks.

You see, it works both ways.

The Democrats in the House passed a bill and the Republicans in the Senate passed a bill. They are different. So the Democrats in the House and the Republicans in the Senate need to come together and negotiate the differences. The problem is the Republicans left town to go on their summer vacations so the Democrats have no one to negotiate with. The Democrats and the public at large will simply need to wait until the Republicans have finished their summer vacations and come back to work.

Meanwhile, 164,887 Americans have died from COVID-19, and the total is growing at over 1,000 deaths a day.

Frank, see my last post.  Same answer,

[Alan Klein]

Still playing politics as the people die. 162,000+, tic toc, tic toc, tic toc...

Both sides are playing politics with Covid because this is election season, unfortunately. But the funding in any case is mainly for economic support of the unemployed and businesses.  People are going to get sick and die regardless and sadly.   By bringing up deaths with an economics bill, you're playing politics with it.

[hogloff]

People are going to get sick and die regardless and sadly.   

You sound just like Trump, "it is what it is"

[Alan Klein]

You sound just like Trump, "it is what it is"

Low class ad hominem attack.  Stop with the moral superiority.  You know that's not what I meant.  The bill is not to relieve Covid but to pay people's rent. 

[Alan Klein]

So Trump just signed the executive order that placed Democrats between a rock and a hard place.  The ball is in their court.  All the Dems have to do is agree to sign a bill to make in legitimate.  After all, don't they want to help out-of-work Americans and other during these times of economic difficulties? If they don't the Dems and Biden will get blamed.  The polls next week are going to be interesting.

Trump signs executive actions after stimulus talks break down on Capitol Hill

"President Donald Trump tried to assert executive power by signing four actions Saturday, one of which will provide as much as $400 in enhanced unemployment benefits -- 25% of which states are being asked to cover -- after Democrats and the White House were unable to reach an agreement on a coronavirus stimulus relief bill this week.

The other three actions he signed include a memorandum on a payroll tax holiday for Americans earning less than $100,000 a year, an executive order on "assistance to renters and homeowners" and a memorandum on deferring student loan payments."
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/08/politics/trump-executive-order-stimulus/index.html

[faberryman]

The bill is not to relieve Covid but to pay people's rent.

... while they are unemployed because of COVID.  Seems like you might want to address the underlying problem at some point.

[faberryman]

Frank, see my last post.  Same answer,

It wasn't a question. It was a recitation of facts.

[faberryman]

But the funding in any case is mainly for economic support of the unemployed and businesses.

What economic support is provided to businesses with these executive orders?

[hogloff]

Low class ad hominem attack.  Stop with the moral superiority.  You know that's not what I meant.  The bill is not to relieve Covid but to pay people's rent.

Just commenting on your cold view of the people that lost their lives...and your insistence of the economic effects of Covid. Lines up with Trump's views.

[faberryman]

Both sides want to give money to the unemployed, so they should just do it.

They couldn’t do it if they wanted to because the Republicans went on summer vacation.

[Alan Klein]

Biden's the one on vacation.  Trump just took control and made Congress irrelevant.   The unemployed see him as their champion while Congress twiddles their thumbs.  Pelosi and the Democrats will reverse themselves to save themselves.  Trump holds all the cards.

[John Camp]

Biden's the one on vacation.  Trump just took control and made Congress irrelevant.   The unemployed see him as their champion while Congress twiddles their thumbs.  Pelosi and the Democrats will reverse themselves to save themselves.  Trump holds all the cards.

It's almost a sure thing that Trump's payroll tax cut is illegal -- a president can't overturn laws on his own -- but you know what the payroll tax supports? Social Security and Medicare. Haven't seen Alan speak out in favor of his boy on that. And, of course, cutting payroll tax doesn't do much to help prop up the millions of covid unemployed, since it only affects people who actually are employed.

[Alan Klein]

It's almost a sure thing that Trump's payroll tax cut is illegal -- a president can't overturn laws on his own -- but you know what the payroll tax supports? Social Security and Medicare. Haven't seen Alan speak out in favor of his boy on that. And, of course, cutting payroll tax doesn't do much to help prop up the millions of covid unemployed, since it only affects people who actually are employed.

of course it's illegal.  But that's not the point.  He's giving money to both the unemployed and the employed for their vote while Congress twiddles their thumbs, especially the Democrats who refuse to help unless they can bailout the states,  especially Democrat run states.   This helps Trump and Republicans in November. Pelosi hurt her side.

[Jeremy Roussak]

This thread is straying dangerously close to political discussion of Covid-19, and hence to being shut down.

Jeremy

[Robert Roaldi]

Low class ad hominem attack.  Stop with the moral superiority.  You know that's not what I meant.  The bill is not to relieve Covid but to pay people's rent.

Why is comparing you to Trump an ad hominem attack?