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Author Topic: Covid 19 Updates Part 2  (Read 83816 times)

JoeKitchen

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Re: Covid 19 Updates Part 2
« Reply #460 on: April 02, 2020, 07:34:18 am »

Well this is interesting. 

Prosecutors: Engineer deliberately ran train off tracks in attempt to smash the USNS Mercy

That's the military hospital ship sent to LA.  Apparently this guy is one of those government conspiracy theorist that thinks there is always an alternate explanation for something.  Thankfully he did not hit the ship. 
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William Walker

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Re: Covid 19 Updates Part 2
« Reply #461 on: April 02, 2020, 08:12:48 am »

Well, if that is the case, then ...

I'm not one for hypocrisy. 

Here's the deal though, if who ever succeeds Trump criticizing him for golfing and then he/she golfs while in office, should it still be open season?

Joe, you understand, of course, that  - added to that hypocrisy - Trump only plays golf at his courses/resorts, with the resultant Secret Service accommodation and related costs going into his pockets? Sounds like a win all round!  8)
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Covid 19 Updates Part 2
« Reply #462 on: April 02, 2020, 08:14:23 am »

Joe, you understand, of course, that  - added to that hypocrisy - Trump only plays golf at his courses/resorts, with the resultant Secret Service and accommodation and related costs going into his pockets? Sounds like a win all round!  8)

But is he paying his own green fees?

Honestly, I have no issues with that. 

Would you rather him fly to Pebble Beach every time he plays and we tax payers pay those, presumably, much higher fees? 
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Alan Klein

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Re: Covid 19 Updates Part 2
« Reply #463 on: April 02, 2020, 08:26:16 am »

Joe, you understand, of course, that  - added to that hypocrisy - Trump only plays golf at his courses/resorts, with the resultant Secret Service and accommodation and related costs going into his pockets? Sounds like a win all round!  8)
Where should he play golf?  At someone else's golf course?  Maybe Palm Beach County Municipal Golf COurse.  Maybe he should rent a room and sleep at Hotel 6 when he goes home to NYC instead of his condo in the Trump Tower that he and his wife owns.  When the Clintons bought their home in upper NYS, the Secret Service built additions to it at taxpayer cost.  They added security fences, security cameras, and sleeping quarter for SS guards.  It's standard practice.  How much did the taxpayers pay every time Obama fly on Air Force One to his home in Hawaii with his family 6000 miles from DC to play golf and get some sun?  It would have been cheaper if he rented a room in Florida at Trump's Mar-a-lago.  The sun there is just as nice.  You're just being petty and picky because you don't like Trump.   

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Covid 19 Updates Part 2
« Reply #464 on: April 02, 2020, 08:33:55 am »

Instead of a statement, here's an honest question for liberals and conservatives alike. (Even a few liberals play golf. Like Obama.)

My golf club has a policy of allowing people on the course but only if (a) you walk -- no carts, which could be contaminated. (b) You don't come within 6 yards of another golfer. (3) You have you bring your own clubs -- there are no people in the storage areas to retrieve them. You're allowed to use the practice chipping and putting areas if (a) you bring your own balls, and don't exchange balls with anyone, (b) you don't get within 6 yards of another player. Again, no carts.

Arizona (where I don't live) is currently having a controversy about golf courses being allowed to remain open. Do you think the courses should be closed as a matter of solidarity with the rest of the country which has no such outlet? Or that they should be allowed to remain open under conditions outlined above? Is this a richie-richie v. proletarian kind of controversy, even though the biggest golf courses around here are (a) public or (b) operated by casinos at cheap prices? Is this controversy aimed at Trump, who, by actual count, has been in office 1,167 days (as of April Fool's Day) and has, by actual count, on that day, played 117 rounds of golf at an approximate cost to the taxpayers of $133,000,000?* (There are actual websites who keep track of these things, easily found on the net.)

Anyway, should golf be banned?

The temptation for me is to say no. I don't play golf but the actual mechanics of it can be made consistent with physical distancing, it seems to me. So what can go wrong.

Hiking on forest trails is probably also as safe as can be. But in southwestern Ontario, local authorities had to shut down a Conservation Area last week (or maybe the week before, it's kind of a blur) because the spot attracted so many people that the parking lot overflowed and people were parking where they shouldn't, blocking access, etc. But also, with that many people access bottlenecks were being created at trail heads, outhouses, etc. Being spring, some spots were muddy and were being trampled. Lacking the staff to police all the sensitive spots, they chose to close the place down. So a relatively safe thing, hiking, was made relatively unsafe because of overuse, or so the people in charge judged. I'm sure many people were not happy with that decision.

(FYI, Conservation Areas are a designation used for semi-wilderness protected areas that can host picnicking, hiking, cross country skiing, rock climbing, soccer fields, canoeing, swimming, etc., depending on topography. They vary greatly in size and layout, but they all tend to be much bigger than what you'd normally think of as a park, some are bigger than golf courses.)

Not knowing much about golf, it seems that bottlenecks can occur before the first hole and after the last but that seems easy enough to manage, we do it in grocery stores every day. But compliance could ruin things. If a few people show up who haven't bought into the distancing thing and one is a carrier and inadvertently infects an innocent bystander and he brings the bug home, it's easy to imagine a bad sequence of events.

This can happen in a grocery store line too, of course. Except that at any one time, a grocery store contains a wide variety of people. A queue at the first hole only has golfers in it. If a non-complier (is that a word?) shows up, will people feel more or less reticent to voice their displeasure at the behaviour, seeing as how they are all part of the same "club". I don't know.

To my mind, a question of responsibility arises. If that bad sequence of events happened, would the golf course operators feel responsible for the bad outcome. I understand that the proximate cause of that kind of transmission is not the golf course rules, it is the people who were careless about distancing, but I can see a situation where some operators might feel as if they're partly to blame. Other operators might not. What might lead them to think one way or the other is probably affected by what's going on around them. If the golf course is in the middle of nowhere in Arizona or Utah, and only 13 Covid-19 cases exist in the immediate area, that's one thing. But if we get to the point that 2000 people are dying every day and the hospitals are backed up, then the operators of a golf course in a Connecticut suburb might see things differently. In that latter case, anything that could remotely be seen as a risk would be frowned upon by a lot of people.

The governor of Florida only yesterday decided to implement distancing directives to the entire state. So presumably, a few golfers in northern Florida on Tuesday might have been emboldened to flaunt distancing guidelines. One of them could easily have passed on the bug, this at a time when a lot of the rest of the world knew better. Who would be responsible in such a case, the unknown (even to himself) contagious guy, the golf course operators, the governor?

I don't know if I can make a general call on the question in the absence of context. What's acceptable social behaviour on Monday might change by Friday. Everyone has and wants rights, but humans tend to be a bit more confused about responsibilities, especially if it costs them something.


(As an aside and unrelated to your question, one of the episodes from Malcolm Gladwell's Revisionist History podcast concerned the private golf courses in Los Angeles and how they enjoyed all kinds of benefits that were grandfathered in from a different era. It was an interesting discussion. (From season 2 episode 1: http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/11-a-good-walk-spoiled, available widely.)
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James Clark

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Re: Covid 19 Updates Part 2
« Reply #465 on: April 02, 2020, 08:34:20 am »

Where should he play golf?  At someone else's golf course?  Maybe Palm Beach County Municipal Golf COurse.  Maybe he should rent a room and sleep at Hotel 6 when he goes home to NYC instead of his condo in the Trump Tower that he and his wife owns.  When the Clintons bought their home in upper NYS, the Secret Service built additions to it at taxpayer cost.  They added security fences, security cameras, and sleeping quarter for SS guards.  It's standard practice.  How much did the taxpayers pay every time Obama fly on Air Force One to his home in Hawaii with his family 6000 miles from DC to play golf and get some sun?  It would have been cheaper if he rented a room in Florida at Trump's Mar-a-lago.  The sun there is just as nice.  You're just being petty and picky because you don't like Trump.

Trump castigates Obama for playing golf.
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James Clark

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Re: Covid 19 Updates Part 2
« Reply #466 on: April 02, 2020, 08:35:58 am »

Joe, you understand, of course, that  - added to that hypocrisy - Trump only plays golf at his courses/resorts, with the resultant Secret Service accommodation and related costs going into his pockets? Sounds like a win all round!  8)

Ethics are for lesser men.
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William Walker

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Re: Covid 19 Updates Part 2
« Reply #467 on: April 02, 2020, 08:37:49 am »

Where should he play golf?  At someone else's golf course?  Maybe Palm Beach County Municipal Golf COurse.  Maybe he should rent a room and sleep at Hotel 6 when he goes home to NYC instead of his condo in the Trump Tower that he and his wife owns.  When the Clintons bought their home in upper NYS, the Secret Service built additions to it at taxpayer cost.  They added security fences, security cameras, and sleeping quarter for SS guards.  It's standard practice.  How much did the taxpayers pay every time Obama fly on Air Force One to his home in Hawaii with his family 6000 miles from DC to play golf and get some sun?  It would have been cheaper if he rented a room in Florida at Trump's Mar-a-lago.  The sun there is just as nice.  You're just being petty and picky because you don't like Trump.

Perhaps I am Alan, but it is astonishing to see your Pavlov-like defence of him, it is very difficult to understand....

Bye the way, further to the link to the New Yorker article I posted the other day, someone else has picked up on the "viral dose" theme. It certainly makes sense to me as a layman... https://nyti.ms/2w9Uzsy
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Covid 19 Updates Part 2
« Reply #468 on: April 02, 2020, 09:05:54 am »

Well, this is working out ... if you're into setting records. 

Unemployment claims spiked to new record last week, with 6.6M Americans filing for aid

And I thought 3M was high the week prior. 
« Last Edit: April 02, 2020, 09:11:29 am by JoeKitchen »
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Covid 19 Updates Part 2
« Reply #469 on: April 02, 2020, 09:20:36 am »

Well, this is working out ... if you're into setting records. 

Unemployment claims spiked to new record last week, with 6.6M Americans filing for aid

And I thought 3M was high the week prior.

Two kinds of suffering obviously. Economic suffering is frequently dismissed by people, people who aren’t suffering the consequences of it. Anyone who has ever been actually poor will know it’s debilitating and the consequences can be felt for generations as the harm manifests in behavioral disfunction that can be passed on.

I really hope the various stimulus packages end up doing real good and help the people who need it. It’s very disturbing.
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hogloff

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Re: Covid 19 Updates Part 2
« Reply #470 on: April 02, 2020, 09:48:03 am »

Two kinds of suffering obviously. Economic suffering is frequently dismissed by people, people who aren’t suffering the consequences of it. Anyone who has ever been actually poor will know it’s debilitating and the consequences can be felt for generations as the harm manifests in behavioral disfunction that can be passed on.

I really hope the various stimulus packages end up doing real good and help the people who need it. It’s very disturbing.

Unfortunately the stimulus seems to always end up in the big corporations hands...not the poor that need it just to survive.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Covid 19 Updates Part 2
« Reply #471 on: April 02, 2020, 09:51:58 am »

In other records, it looks like we got a whole bunch of new 2nd amendment supporters last month. 

March blows past record for gun background checks amid coronavirus pandemic

"The FBI ran more than 3.7 million gun background checks on Americans under the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) in March, smashing the previous record as Americans armed themselves amid growing fears about the coronavirus pandemic." 
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Rob C

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Re: Covid 19 Updates Part 2
« Reply #472 on: April 02, 2020, 09:58:28 am »

Absolutely not. We need whatever we can to preserve some sense of normalcy.

And you believe that knocking a tiny ball from one hole to another with a tool that could not have been less appropriate for the task is normal behaviour?

Worse, do you believe that knocking a ball from hole to hole with anything constitutes normal behaviour? Why would you do that?

Rob C

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Re: Covid 19 Updates Part 2
« Reply #473 on: April 02, 2020, 10:00:54 am »

Some were brainwashed by church that the next stop is heaven.


Hold your horses; it all depends on what kind of cat you have been when you check out. It's not a given.

hogloff

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Re: Covid 19 Updates Part 2
« Reply #474 on: April 02, 2020, 10:02:38 am »

In other records, it looks like we got a whole bunch of new 2nd amendment supporters last month. 

March blows past record for gun background checks amid coronavirus pandemic

"The FBI ran more than 3.7 million gun background checks on Americans under the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) in March, smashing the previous record as Americans armed themselves amid growing fears about the coronavirus pandemic."

Isn't that the solution to all problems...buy more guns. Really baffles my mind.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Covid 19 Updates Part 2
« Reply #475 on: April 02, 2020, 10:06:14 am »

And you believe that knocking a tiny ball from one hole to another with a tool that could not have been less appropriate for the task is normal behaviour?

Worse, do you believe that knocking a ball from hole to hole with anything constitutes normal behaviour? Why would you do that?

Once again, none of your or mine business what people decide to do with their own time and money.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Covid 19 Updates Part 2
« Reply #476 on: April 02, 2020, 10:07:49 am »

Isn't that the solution to all problems...buy more guns. Really baffles my mind.

Why? Perfectly rational reaction.

Rob C

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Re: Covid 19 Updates Part 2
« Reply #477 on: April 02, 2020, 10:09:22 am »

Once again, none of your or mine business what people decide to do with their own time and money.


Nothing to do with that: all to do with the logic of the doing.

JoeKitchen

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Re: Covid 19 Updates Part 2
« Reply #478 on: April 02, 2020, 10:10:05 am »

Isn't that the solution to all problems...buy more guns. Really baffles my mind.

Well when democratic mayors and governors began this thing by emptying out the prisons, I am feeling like maybe I should have bought a 12 gauge. 

Why you would let criminals out and not think bad things will happen really baffles my mind. 
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faberryman

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Re: Covid 19 Updates Part 2
« Reply #479 on: April 02, 2020, 10:11:46 am »

And you believe that knocking a tiny ball from one hole to another with a tool that could not have been less appropriate for the task is normal behaviour?

Worse, do you believe that knocking a ball from hole to hole with anything constitutes normal behaviour? Why would you do that?
Well, it is pretty challenging. And when you are focusing on trying to do that, you are not focusing on your problems, like you just lost your job, or your health insurance lapses at the end of the month, or you are overdrawn at the bank and you have maxed out your credit cards, or your wife is having an affair with the pool boy, or Trump is the White House during a pandemic, etc., so it does provide some mental relief.
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