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Author Topic: Direct image comparisons of D810 and Canon top of the line body?  (Read 9859 times)

LKaven

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Re: Direct image comparisons of D810 and Canon top of the line body?
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2015, 11:47:19 pm »

there is no current 135mm f/2 Nikkor.   

It's worth a brief note on the 135/2 DC Nikkor, still made.  [I mention this in case someone took Ellis to say that there is no such lens.]  It's a beautiful lens with amazing bokeh, my favorite portrait lens ever.  But it doesn't have AF-S.  There is however a patent out on a 135 f/1.8 lens design that undoubtedly does.  Given the trend of new 135/2 designs (Zeiss, Samyang), perhaps Nikon will let this one out of the barn.

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Direct image comparisons of D810 and Canon top of the line body?
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2015, 01:03:11 am »

The 24 TSE II (I have) and the 17 TSE (I want) are the main reasons for sticking with Canon.  

Understandable. This has been said so many times by so many people that this no way Nikon won't release soon their version of these lenses and we can be 99% sure that they'll be superior to the current Canon line up.

Cheers,
Bernard

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Direct image comparisons of D810 and Canon top of the line body?
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2015, 01:17:34 am »

Hi,

I would say that interpolating to same size is a good way to compare cameras of different resolution. A better way may be to interpolate to a common resolution, say 180 PPI or 360 PPI for a given print size. The logic behind this that 360 PPI corresponds approximately to the resolution of human vision at 25 cm (10 inches), while 180 PPI corresponds to human vision at 50 cm (20 inches). Also, it seems that it is normally regarded that 180 PPI is needed for an excellent print.

There are more options to use Sony sensors than just the Sony cameras. Nikon, Pentax and others also use Sony sensor in some models.

Getting a Sony A# may be a decent idea, as it can take almost any lens. Prices on old A7-models can be quite low.

Personally, I plan to switch from Sony Alpha A-mount to Sony Alpha E-mount when Sony has a "pro" model. Zeiss now has a new 85/1.8 lens which I find highly interesting for the Sony, so I may switch earlier than expected.

Best regards
Erik

Slobodan, the comparison you posted has interpolations on the 5D3 and no interpolation on the D800 to try to normalize resolution between the 22 MP Canon and 36 MP Nikon. So the resolution part of the exam isn't really comparable.

However the shadow recovery comparison is enough to make any Canon fangirl cry  :'(

I have taken to over-exposing every shot that doesn't have outright highlight clipping (Michael's ETTR) - it helps some. I would love the Sony Exmor sensor in a Canon body, because I don't like dinky cameras, they don't feel right in the hand. However, I keep thinking about getting the upcoming Sony A7r II plus adapter, primarily for tripod use, where poor ergonomics don't matter..
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Erik Kaffehr
 

dwswager

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Re: Direct image comparisons of D810 and Canon top of the line body?
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2015, 02:15:35 pm »

Those shadow noise comparisons are pretty striking!   I have the D810 and 5D Mark II and it makes me reconsider ordering the 5DS R.    I have more than 10K in Canon lenses, but perhaps they are better sold off..  It would be nice if Nikon would up their lens game a bit.   Lenses like the 400/2.8 show they can match/top Canon when they choose to.

And it would be nice if Canon upped their camera game a bit.  Outside the T/S lenses, it wasn't that long ago that the roles were reversed.  The holy trinity (14-24, 24-70 and 70-200mm) were superior to anything Canon had at the time.  Of course, now Canon has upped the lens side and Nikon the Camera side. 

It is very complex to make a decision where to spend limited resources.  If we look at the 24-70mm for example, the big issues would be soft outside the center wide open and chromatic aberration.  But the lens was considered excellent when released and is still one of the most used lenses today.  By the current standards, it is just VERY GOOD.  So what is the return to update a very good lens that sells well versus some other alternative.
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spidermike

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Re: Direct image comparisons of D810 and Canon top of the line body?
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2015, 03:42:45 pm »

So what is the return to update a very good lens that sells well versus some other alternative.

And I think that is what is often forgotten when people complain about their favrourite functions being ignored - it is a matter of where to put the development that will yield greatest return. You could argue that Nikon have cornered the lansdcape where high ISO and shadow recovery is king, while Canon seem to reign on sports and action where a higher ISO is often used and the DR performance narrows to almost insignificance.
And, of course the lenses followsuit - Nikon's wide angle have for years been considered superior to Canon's, but the telephoto market is the other way round and this again supports the apparent bias in the bodies.

I am sure many Nikon people crave higher quality telephotos in the way many Canon owners crave the ISO performance seen with Nikon.
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uaiomex

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Re: Direct image comparisons of D810 and Canon top of the line body?
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2015, 07:16:34 pm »

The best thing about being a canonite is that we have the best glass and the best sensors. Yes, the one inside the Sony A7 line!
 ;D
Eduardo


And I think that is what is often forgotten when people complain about their favrourite functions being ignored - it is a matter of where to put the development that will yield greatest return. You could argue that Nikon have cornered the lansdcape where high ISO and shadow recovery is king, while Canon seem to reign on sports and action where a higher ISO is often used and the DR performance narrows to almost insignificance.
And, of course the lenses followsuit - Nikon's wide angle have for years been considered superior to Canon's, but the telephoto market is the other way round and this again supports the apparent bias in the bodies.

I am sure many Nikon people crave higher quality telephotos in the way many Canon owners crave the ISO performance seen with Nikon.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Direct image comparisons of D810 and Canon top of the line body?
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2015, 08:30:26 pm »

I am sure many Nikon people crave higher quality telephotos in the way many Canon owners crave the ISO performance seen with Nikon.

What is interesting is the gap between perception and reality.  ;)

The best available super tele is the Nikon 400mm f2.8 E FL, but even with the other ones the level of performance between Canon and Nikon is so close there is nothing to tell them apart in real world applications.

www.lenscore.org

Cheers,
Bernard

robdickinson

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Re: Direct image comparisons of D810 and Canon top of the line body?
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2015, 08:39:11 pm »

Bernard you are quite keen on that one website. Very under explained and misses a lot of the points people look at about supertele's, like the canon is almost 1kilo lighter.

As for nikon high ISO, what? Its the one thing I HATE about those sensors. Nasty.

Low ISO DR is the thing.

And how long to wait for a good nikon tilt shift?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Direct image comparisons of D810 and Canon top of the line body?
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2015, 09:15:11 pm »

Bernard you are quite keen on that one website. Very under explained and misses a lot of the points people look at about supertele's, like the canon is almost 1kilo lighter.

In fact not anymore, the Nikon 400 f2.8 E FL is now a tiny bit lighter than the Canon, they basically have the same weight. Stabilization is pretty amazing both on static and dynamic subject and AF is the fastest I have ever seen on any lens. ;)

I would point at DxO if that lens had already been tested by them. But you can just refer to their data and will notice that the previous iteration of the 400mm f2.8 was already at the same level of optical quality as the Canon (but that one was indeed 800 gr heavier which is clearly a huge difference).

Totally agree that the Nikon T/S are long overdue for a replacement though. I am not saying at all that Nikon is doing a good job on lenses overall, I am very frustrated by the time it takes upgrading some of their offering.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 09:19:47 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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lowep

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Re: Direct image comparisons of D810 and Canon top of the line body?
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2015, 09:54:30 pm »

How he chooses to spend his money is his business, isn't it? if he is professional, what if the abilities of the extra $2300 makes him $23,000 that the other camera wouldn't?

I am surprised you suggest a camera rather than the abilities of the photographer could make such a difference.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Direct image comparisons of D810 and Canon top of the line body?
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2015, 12:00:01 am »

I am surprised you suggest a camera rather than the abilities of the photographer could make such a difference.

I don't believe that it is what he is saying.

The importance of the photographer is an obvious fact which doesn't change the reality that not all cameras enable them the same way.

If the abilities of the camera enables the photographer to execute his vision in a way that is money generating, there is a clear ROI and buying more expensive/better performing equipment is a sensible business decision.

Cheers,
Bernard

dwswager

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Re: Direct image comparisons of D810 and Canon top of the line body?
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2015, 09:32:52 am »

Hi,

I would say that interpolating to same size is a good way to compare cameras of different resolution. A better way may be to interpolate to a common resolution, say 180 PPI or 360 PPI for a given print size. The logic behind this that 360 PPI corresponds approximately to the resolution of human vision at 25 cm (10 inches), while 180 PPI corresponds to human vision at 50 cm (20 inches). Also, it seems that it is normally regarded that 180 PPI is needed for an excellent print.

Best regards
Erik


I agree, but the comparison really is output need dependent.  For example, if you are shooting for a specific output size, then one needs to use that size.  What may work for one, might be different for another.  While my landscape and portrait work isn't really affected, my sports stuff undergoes anything from a mild to severe crop.  In this case, something like an 18MP camera just wouldn't work for me no matter how good the high ISO performance is because I just don't end up with enough pixels for the output.  Then the test because clean image with upsampling versus a noisier image with no resample or down sampling.
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lowep

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Re: Direct image comparisons of D810 and Canon top of the line body?
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2015, 12:21:41 pm »

I don't believe that it is what he is saying.

The importance of the photographer is an obvious fact which doesn't change the reality that not all cameras enable them the same way.

If the abilities of the camera enables the photographer to execute his vision in a way that is money generating, there is a clear ROI and buying more expensive/better performing equipment is a sensible business decision.

Cheers,
Bernard


Yes, I agree with you on this point that leads me to ponder what significant difference could there be between the D810 and Canon top of the line body in enabling a photographer to execute his vision in a way that is money generating.
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Petrus

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Re: Direct image comparisons of D810 and Canon top of the line body?
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2015, 12:24:37 pm »

there is no current 135mm f/2 Nikkor.   

Stange, I have a new* 135mm f/2 DC-Nikkor, now you say it does not existů

 ;D

*) OK, it a 20-year old design, but still one of the sharper Nikkors anyway, and they still make it for those who need terrific portrait glass. 105mm f/2 DC-Nikkor is even sharper. Still made also.
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NancyP

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Re: Direct image comparisons of D810 and Canon top of the line body?
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2015, 02:55:02 pm »

Calling Leica owners!  Let's have a three-way fan (g)rumble!

I think that it is very fortunate that there are two giant and decently diversified DSLR and lens system manufacturers to keep each other working to improve. Not to mention, the non-Canikon cameras with innovations such as IBIS, sensor shift, mirrorless, grand Sony sensors, pocket-sized 4K video, etc.

Rumor is that Sony is going to announce another update to the A7x in a few weeks to a month. Take it with a giant rock of salt. A7rII with the shutter issue resolved?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Direct image comparisons of D810 and Canon top of the line body?
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2015, 05:00:49 pm »

Insider information or just something you feel in your waters?

Simple logic. I don't remember a single occurence these past 10 years where a lens released by Canon/Nikon hasn't been overall superior to the existing version of the other guy's lens.

Nowadays the Nikon wide T/S are probably the last example of lens category where the current level of performance isn't satisfactory for real world applications (not speaking about pixel peeping). There is no way Nikon could not be totally aware of this. Remember, they see themselves as a higher end brand than Canon targeting a higher level of "performance". I am not commenting on whether they are succeeding overal, but it seems clear they have the technical capability to succeed on a given lens if they consider it important.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 05:05:09 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Direct image comparisons of D810 and Canon top of the line body?
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2015, 05:23:38 pm »

Perhaps my memory betrays me and please forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I do seem to remember you defending the Nikon wide T/S performance, in fact singing your own example's praises on several occasions in the not too distant past.

I continue to think that my copy of the 24mm is good when tilted, I have never claimed that it was great when shifted.

But I fail to see how that this is relevant to the discussion.

There is clearly a widespread view that Canon wide T/S are vastly superior, view I agree with overall since more people seem to use these lenses shifted (or to measure their performance when shifted), and I am saying that Nikon must be aware of this and will most probably fix it soon. I don't believe they consider my own little opinion about the tilted performance of my copy as over weighting the opinion of internet. I beleve that their lens release plan is overall rationally decided based on the overall feedback they are getting and based on a factual comparison of relative performance.

This common sense and I am frankly unsure what you are arguing with. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 05:29:17 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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LKaven

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Re: Direct image comparisons of D810 and Canon top of the line body?
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2015, 05:42:11 pm »

I beleve that their lens release plan is overall rationally decided based on the overall feedback they are getting and based on a factual comparison of relative performance.

Exactly...Canon and Nikon have spent their entire careers shadowing each other.  From the Nikon S to the Canon IV...from the Nikon F to the Canon F1...from the Canon EOS-1 to the Nikon F4...from the 24-70/2.8 to the 24-70/2.8 to the 24-70/2.8.

I think Bernard's bet is a pretty good one.

NancyP

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Re: Direct image comparisons of D810 and Canon top of the line body?
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2015, 06:00:37 pm »

Schneider will likely stay in the lead in the T/S category, with the Canikons trailing. However, the main message I get is "modern DSLRs and lenses are amazing". We like to fuss over our current favorites, but forget what the old days were like. Old zooms - ugh. Vivitar 20mm f/3.8 - amazing in 1971, at the price, outdone by far cheaper (and smaller) lenses nowadays. I have been wanting to try some wide-angle near-macro, and dug out the old late 1960s-early 1970s manual lenses, extension tubes, and adapters. I still think that my 5 year old consumer-grade Canon 60D is an amazing camera capable of making great images, even though it is nowhere near state of the art. OK, "Pollyanna off". Back to (g)rumbling.  ;)
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LKaven

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Re: Direct image comparisons of D810 and Canon top of the line body?
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2015, 06:10:50 pm »

We like to fuss over our current favorites, but forget what the old days were like. Old zooms - ugh. Vivitar 20mm f/3.8 - amazing in 1971, at the price, outdone by far cheaper (and smaller) lenses nowadays.

Just revisited a Nikon magazine ad from 1960, touting the new Nikkor 85-250mm f/4 zoom.  Only $599!  An inflation calculator puts that at $4,778.22 in 2015 dollars.  For $1100, you can have a 70-200 f/4 with autofocus, having vastly better optical performance.  [It would be cheaper still, but for the price of the Yen.]
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