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Author Topic: So where is the new Phase One body  (Read 45784 times)

sgilbert

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #100 on: May 04, 2015, 06:06:56 pm »

The website for the "unofficial" Zeiss Flickr page is http://www.zeiss.com/camera-lenses/en_de/home.html

That seems pretty much like Zeiss.  
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eronald

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #101 on: May 04, 2015, 08:09:06 pm »

Erik

 To paraphrase George Bernard Shaw,

 "Wrestle a pig, you get covered in mud, and the pig likes that".

 I do agree our "professional" friend has shown us a very sharp image with nice skin tone there - although my feeling is that the model probably got a bad case of sunburn - the zone of sharpness is astonishingly deep. On your yellow/purple image the Zeiss looks like it has more contrast - maybe the light changed?

Edmund

Hi Synn,

Have you actually checked that image at actual pixels? It has all signs of bad processing. That site is not an official Zeiss site, BTW.

This is said to be the official Zeiss site on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/groups/carlzeisslenses

While the other page is: https://www.flickr.com/photos/carlzeisslenses/

Just to make a few small points. Zeiss likes MTF data, they even publish them. Just because you ignore measured data it doesn't mean it is not useful. Lens designers use them all the time. Leica also loves MTF data, they also publish them.

The attached images are close up shots with my Sony Alpha 99 (which has 24 MP) using a 25 year old Minolta Macro 100/2.8 at f/11 and the other one is with the Planar 120/4 at f/11 on the P45+. Focus was on the yellow pistills. Same image just different actual pixel crops.

What I have seen on the Carl Zeiss lenses for the Hasselblad is that they are very sharp at the center. Edges/Corners are not so good on the shorter lenses, but still hold up to close scrutiny at A2-size , that I normally print.

Best regards
Erik



« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 08:23:32 pm by eronald »
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synn

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #102 on: May 05, 2015, 12:44:58 am »


 "Wrestle a pig, you get covered in mud, and the pig likes that".


Ah, that explains why you start these threads, looking for confrontations.
Thanks for the clarification.
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synn

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #103 on: May 05, 2015, 04:01:44 am »

Hi Synn,

Have you actually checked that image at actual pixels? It has all signs of bad processing. That site is not an official Zeiss site, BTW.

This is said to be the official Zeiss site on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/groups/carlzeisslenses

While the other page is: https://www.flickr.com/photos/carlzeisslenses/

Just to make a few small points. Zeiss likes MTF data, they even publish them. Just because you ignore measured data it doesn't mean it is not useful. Lens designers use them all the time. Leica also loves MTF data, they also publish them.

The attached images are close up shots with my Sony Alpha 99 (which has 24 MP) using a 25 year old Minolta Macro 100/2.8 at f/11 and the other one is with the Planar 120/4 at f/11 on the P45+. Focus was on the yellow pistills. Same image just different actual pixel crops.

What I have seen on the Carl Zeiss lenses for the Hasselblad is that they are very sharp at the center. Edges/Corners are not so good on the shorter lenses, but still hold up to close scrutiny at A2-size , that I normally print.

Best regards
Erik




Erik,

Thanks for the screenshots. My point was not to ignore MTF charts, but that the results I have with me quite comfortably show TO ME that all these flavors of the month are still not close to delivering "That look" that I get with every frame that I make with the MF gear. Those Batis samples are just another example.

Doesn't mean that MF is the be all and end all. Just that for the type of work that I do, which does focus on details and tonality, there's nothing in 35mm that appeals to me as a viable alternative to what I use.

p.s. Since I have seen enough samples from you, I can safely say, the results you get are not indicative of what MF gear can achieve. I am not sure if it is human error, sample variation, legacy gear (Lenses), post processing choices or a combination of all of the above. But if it looks good to YOU on print, who cares, eh?
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #104 on: May 05, 2015, 07:53:36 am »

Hi Edmund,

It was late evening so light and shadows change fast. Still, the main factor is in all probability my processing. In test images I usually include a ColorChecker and that lets me equilize processing, but this were no test images just some samples from an outdoor shoot.

There are many sliders in a moder raw converter...

Best regards
Erik

Erik

On your yellow/purple image the Zeiss looks like it has more contrast - maybe the light changed?

Edmund

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ciccio

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #105 on: May 05, 2015, 04:55:46 pm »

still ...
the big problem for phase is when a sony ar9 is out in autmn with a 50 mpx cmos and a capture one software version for sony...what will happen ? new marketing strategy ?
new prices...
best.
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ciccio

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #106 on: May 05, 2015, 05:01:55 pm »

and forgot nobody buys today used phase back ccd like before...price really dropped.this is already the picture.best.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #107 on: May 05, 2015, 05:22:48 pm »

and forgot nobody buys today used phase back ccd like before...price really dropped.this is already the picture.best.

For the last five years we've sold more new backs than the year before, more upgrades than the year before, and more pre-owned/refurbished backs than the year before.

I suspect the strong trade-in value that P1 offers for upgrades, and the number of good deals we've had on refurbished backs (that carry warranty and dealer support) has more impact on interest in privately-sold-CCD-backs than does underlying interest therein. In my experience most people like to buy $10k+ cameras from a place they can test it before hand, and where there is warranty/support after the sale; it's not like buying a $500 commodity lens for a Canon.

Rainer SLP

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #108 on: May 05, 2015, 05:48:39 pm »

Quote
it's not like buying a $500 commodity lens for a Canon.

... or Nikon, or Sony, or Pentax, or Minolta ... or whatever

What is wrong with a US $ 500,00 lens from Canon ?

 ;D
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Doug Peterson

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #109 on: May 05, 2015, 06:21:10 pm »

... or Nikon, or Sony, or Pentax, or Minolta ... or whatever

What is wrong with a US $ 500,00 lens from Canon ?

A lens like the 50/1.4 offers pretty good performance and look for a low price.

My point was only that, in my experience, most people are more comfortable buying a lens like that on eBay/privately than are comfortable buying a $20k digital back from eBay/privately.

Doug Peterson

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #110 on: May 05, 2015, 06:28:16 pm »

the big problem for phase is when a sony ar9 is out in autmn with a 50 mpx cmos and a capture one software version for sony...what will happen ?

This is said Literally. Every. New. Camera. (real and imaginary new cameras)

Yet Team Phase One sales keep going up.

It's not all about megapixels or bits this or feature that. Digital backs and the bodies/platforms surrounding them provide entirely different types of cameras to anything in the dSLR or mirrorless world. An Arca Swiss RM3Di with even a 22mp CCD digital back, or a Phase One DF+ with a 1/1600th of a second flash sync and Schneider lenses, or a Mamiya RZ with a back from ten years ago with a waist level optical view finder... all of these offer many advantages over a Sony AR12 with a 200mp cmos sensor.

ErikKaffehr

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #111 on: May 05, 2015, 06:50:33 pm »

Hi,

A few frequent posters here switched from at least in part from high MP IQ 260 (or so) to Sony A7r with whacky bayonet, shutter vibration and all. So the A7r clearly has advantages over even quite recent CCD based MFDs.

http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=90358.msg776770#msg776770

http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=99472.0

Regarding AR12 it is highly improbable because Alpha numbering goes to nine. It will take some time to get to 200 MP on 24x36, but it has been demonstrated that something like that is needed to match the Otuses.

Also, there is no mirror in the Arca Swiss RM3Di. Mirror is sort of not necessary with live view. Even Phase has that technology now.

Best regards
Erik

Digital backs and the bodies/platforms surrounding them provide entirely different types of cameras to anything in the dSLR or mirrorless world. An Arca Swiss RM3Di with even a 22mp CCD digital back, or a Phase One DF+ with a 1/1600th of a second flash sync and Schneider lenses, or a Mamiya RZ with a back from ten years ago with a waist level optical view finder... all of these offer many advantages over a Sony AR12 with a 200mp cmos sensor.
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Erik Kaffehr
 

eronald

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #112 on: May 05, 2015, 07:37:30 pm »

For the last five years we've sold more new backs than the year before, more upgrades than the year before, and more pre-owned/refurbished backs than the year before.

I suspect the strong trade-in value that P1 offers for upgrades, and the number of good deals we've had on refurbished backs (that carry warranty and dealer support) has more impact on interest in privately-sold-CCD-backs than does underlying interest therein. In my experience most people like to buy $10k+ cameras from a place they can test it before hand, and where there is warranty/support after the sale; it's not like buying a $500 commodity lens for a Canon.

Doug,

 Might it not be that your stellar and deserved reputation as an honest, supportive and expert dealer, willing to go the extra mile to make sure the solution works for the customer,  is causing people to come to your door, rather than other dealers,  and growing your business? In particular, when it comes to pre-owned sales where ebay and forums would otherwise easily win out on price alone over any dealer? And that there is a growing adoption of institutional MF as curators accept the necessity of digital publication of their collections?

 I am sure our meretricious friend Synn will feel free, as usual, to point out the obvious errors in all my assumptions ...

Edmund

« Last Edit: May 05, 2015, 08:56:04 pm by eronald »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #113 on: May 06, 2015, 01:27:39 am »

Hi,

Most coins have two sides. Second hand prices dropping is obviously good for budget minded new buyers entering the market. It has also been my personal experience, I set a price tag for an MFDB at 10000$US and bought my P45+ for 9900$US from a buyer in Poland.

Interestingly, I was offered around 18000$US deal in rebate on an IQ-260 as soon I bought it.

The bad side of the coin is that selling gear seems harder now. Also, dealers give hefty rebates on upgrades but not on crossgrades. So you can update at reasonable cost from an IQ-160 to an IQ-260, but not from the IQ-260 to the IQ-250. A friend of mine here on LuLa and GetDPI can sing a symphony about it.

I have published a lot of my P45+ images, and I am aware of at least two people who bought into the Hasselblad system after seeing them. One of those users is Phase One owner, who bought the Hasselblad stuff in addition to her Phase One stuff. The other buyer didn't buy into MFD yet but bought a fine Hasselblad kit to be used with film.

I would also think that there is a great market for an affordable back, as there are a lot of folks sitting on old analogue MF-stuff.

Regarding the original issue, Phase One dealers have been talking a lot about a new Phase One camera that has not yet appeared. Phase One has made a lot of upgrades to old Mamiya 645 based camera, and such upgrades probably still can be done. Building a new MF DSLR may make little sense, as it is a major effort that would be done by Mamiya. Original Phase One is a more of an electronics company. With live view, it is logical to start looking into mirrorless.

Actually a significant part of Phase One's market is mirrorless, all technical cameras. Those cameras now have a decent what you see is what you get view finder in the form of live view backs. Combine an IQ-250 with an Alpa FPS and you have a mirrorless MFD. The FPS even controls aperture on Canon lenses (and so does the older Hartblei HCam).

Personally I am living in a Hasselblad country, that camera system was invented here and it is still produced here, sort of.

Best regards
Erik
Doug,

 Might it not be that your stellar and deserved reputation as an honest, supportive and expert dealer, willing to go the extra mile to make sure the solution works for the customer,  is causing people to come to your door, rather than other dealers,  and growing your business? In particular, when it comes to pre-owned sales where ebay and forums would otherwise easily win out on price alone over any dealer? And that there is a growing adoption of institutional MF as curators accept the necessity of digital publication of their collections?

 I am sure our meretricious friend Synn will feel free, as usual, to point out the obvious errors in all my assumptions ...

Edmund


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synn

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #114 on: May 06, 2015, 05:07:45 am »

And that there is a growing adoption of institutional MF as curators accept the necessity of digital publication of their collections?


You ARE aware that you're the same person who typed this a few pages ago in this very thread, right?

One thing is certain: For institutional static use, Sony 35mm multishot is going to be fighting with Phase MF monoshot at a huge price differential.
Like Apple with Samsung, Phase is in the very uncomfortable situation of competing with its main component supplier.

Edmund


Small underfunded institutions and churches here in Europe will probably go with whatever is cheap to source locally, and Sony Pentax and Canon have a sales agent in every smallish town. I don't see Father Christmas appearing and donating a Phase system or a Cruse scanner to many of these places who struggle with their roof repairs.

Edmund


You said that WITH CERTAINITY at that point.  ::)

If you're not actively trolling with whatever strawman argument that comes to your mind at any given time, I suggest you get help for this.
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ciccio

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #115 on: May 06, 2015, 10:49:06 am »

we will see how phase will react when sony ar 9 and canon 50mpx will be in the market in autumn both using capture one , best software...
welcome to the land of dracula.....best.
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synn

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #116 on: May 06, 2015, 11:22:23 am »

we will see how phase will react when sony ar 9 and canon 50mpx will be in the market in autumn both using capture one , best software...
welcome to the land of dracula.....best.

About the same as they did when the D3x, the D800 and the A7r hit the market.
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ciccio

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #117 on: May 06, 2015, 11:41:08 am »

not exactly,
 in autumn will the same cmos sony sensor 50 mpx in a sony body and a canon body using a phase one software :capture one!

a totally new reality !
 
good luck to the sale team...
best.
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synn

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #118 on: May 06, 2015, 11:42:39 am »

You are aware of the fact that all the cameras I mentioned before work with Capture One Pro, right?
C1P has supported all leading 35mm cameras for as long as I can remember.
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wolfbellw.

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Re: So where is the new Phase One body
« Reply #119 on: May 06, 2015, 11:53:17 am »

You ARE aware that you're the same person who typed this a few pages ago in this very thread, right?

You said that WITH CERTAINITY at that point.  ::)

If you're not actively trolling with whatever strawman argument that comes to your mind at any given time, I suggest you get help for this.

i can't remember having read any substantial contribution from you on this forum.
if you are so convinced that the tools you are using are so much better than anything else, why do you have to attack and insult others constantly, instead of using your wonderful gear and producing some outstanding work. just be a bit more relaxed my friend!
and, before you start attacking me for my mediocre english, just keep in mind that not everybody is a native english speaker.
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