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Author Topic: Wishful thinking... S2 Glass on A7r  (Read 12263 times)

Chris Barrett

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Wishful thinking... S2 Glass on A7r
« on: April 08, 2015, 09:53:10 am »

I can't imagine that anyone will be engineering this, but...  I'd love to be able to use Leica S2 lenses on a Tilt/Shift adapter like the Mirex on my A7r... or even mount them on the Arca M2.

Hmm...

CB

ACH DIGITAL

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Re: Wishful thinking... S2 Glass on A7r
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2015, 03:53:28 pm »

Hi Chris,

Thinking crazy maybe have somebody machine a S2 extension tube to an Arca lens board.
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telyt

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Re: Wishful thinking... S2 Glass on A7r
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2015, 08:08:25 pm »

Hi Chris,

Thinking crazy maybe have somebody machine a S2 extension tube to an Arca lens board.

It would need electrical contacts to operate the diaphragm and to focus.
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bcooter

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Re: Wishful thinking... S2 Glass on A7r
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2015, 08:45:41 pm »

Probably not that difficult to have done.  Either Able or Century can probably make a dumb adapter and there are a bunch of EF smart attachments to adjust the aperture, so whoever writes that code could probably do it for a leica, though most of that would be a one or two off as there probably isn't a big market for it.

I guess it depends on the look your after.  I shoot Leica and Contax/Zeiss glass next to each other on my S2 and the difference is the Zeiss has more contrast and appears sharper (though in reality it's about equal), the Leica glass has a smoother contrast roll off.

As you probably know DP's are now buying up medium format glass to build their kits for the upcoming 65mm cinema cameras, I hear some are having parts of the lens barrel changed.

IMO

BC
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peterv

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Re: Wishful thinking... S2 Glass on A7r
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2015, 11:52:25 am »

Hi Chris, you're certainly not alone in that line of thought.

A few weeks ago I wrote on another forum why I think Leica could/should make adapters for 35mm FF systems, such as Canon, Nikon and Sony:


Pros:

-   The MTF’s of the S lenses are hard to beat for any of their counterpart FF lenses

-   tilt/shift, movements would be possible with specialised adapters, even more so for APS-C cameras that also use Canon, Nikon and Sony mounts

-   Possibility to later (or from the moment of purchase) use the S lenses on a larger sensor camera such as the Leica S system, future MF mirror-less, and also on future larger sensor video and digital cinema cameras. The über 65mm sensor of the new Arri requires a 59mm image circle, but the S lenses have most video sensors covered with a 54mm image circle.

-   Leica can make (extra) money on adapters and lenses

-   making the option to use S lenses on other cameras available to S lens owners would be very economical for photographers who don't want to buy a second S as back up camera (who does/can?) and useful for photographers who want to use a high ISO camera next to their high res S camera. This would save them having to buy Canon, Nikon or Sony lenses and/or schlepping around two lens systems. The money saved on other system lenses can be used to invest in future proof "multi-mount" S lenses

-   Leica can sell lenses to the many buyers of high res, small pixel pitch FF cameras who are (with reason) afraid native lenses are not up to the task of providing enough resolving power for their 37,5 - 50 MP (and in the future even higher MP) FF sensors.

-   All this would mean that an investment in S lenses is a future-proof and thus safe investment, which would lead to more sales. Leica can make the S system better known, gain prestige, and hopefully get more market penetration of the complete S system. Some photographers who bought the S lenses for their FF system may later on want to use their lenses to their full potential on a real Leica S camera with a 56% bigger sensor.


Cons:

-   potentially, there might be more moiré on lower res sensor cameras without OLP filter

-   Costs, S lenses are more expensive than their FF counterparts, except perhaps for the Zeiss Otus lenses

-   Not all, but quite a lot of lenses available for FF are smaller and lighter

-   FF systems generally have faster lenses available

-   potential customers might lose an important incentive to buy an S camera if Leica S lens adapters to Canon, Nikon and Sony cameras are available

-   it remains to be seen if a FF camera with an adapter can make use of the central shutter in Leica S CS lenses (would be great if they could make that work, and this would be an important reason to buy CS lenses for FF camera users)
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Wishful thinking... S2 Glass on A7r
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2015, 05:28:19 pm »

Having the possibility to use S lenses on FF bodies would be nice, but:
- unless Leica invests very high amounts in reverse engineering Canon/Nikon AF, these S lenses would end up serving as manual lenses,
- their focal lengths are a bit unusual in 35mm terms,
- they offer limited shallow DoF options,
- they are extremely expensive compared to the very best 35mm options (average almost twice as expensive as the Otus) and are probably inferior to them per pixel (at least to the Otus, 200mm f2.0 and longer super tele offering blistering fast AF and stabilization), since the S lenses have to cover a larger image circle (measure would tell). Judging from the M mount, recent Zeiss offerings such as the 35mm f1.4 ZM seem at least not inferior to their Leica equivalent at a significantly lower price point.

I don't think Leica will take the risk to invest considering this, the ROI would be low and the risk to the image of the S system as offering the best lenses would be high.

Now it's very possible some third party may decide to produce such an adapter, but... who would buy one? S lens existing owners will prefer to use them on their S body and who is going to spend 7,000 US$ to fit a 70mm f2.5 MF lens designed for AF applications on a DSLR?

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 07:06:24 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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bcooter

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Re: Wishful thinking... S2 Glass on A7r
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2015, 08:12:36 pm »

Quote
who would buy one?

Probably not me, because I'd rather use it on an S, but some people love Leica glass.   Have you seen the price of Leica PL mount cinema Lenses. The lens caps costs more most lenses and the last three large projects I've seen produced in Hollywood all had Leica glass.



$101,000 for 6 primes and btw believe it or not some dp's actually buy the Leicas rather than rent.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 08:18:41 pm by bcooter »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Wishful thinking... S2 Glass on A7r
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2015, 08:34:17 pm »

Probably not me, because I'd rather use it on an S, but some people love Leica glass.   Have you seen the price of Leica PL mount cinema Lenses. The lens caps costs more most lenses and the last three large projects I've seen produced in Hollywood all had Leica glass.



$101,000 for 6 primes and btw believe it or not some dp's actually buy the Leicas rather than rent.

IMO

BC

Never used a Leica, could not tell you the difference between it and any other DSLR, but those lenses look pretty damn sweet!  

Is that manual aperture control I see?  That's one thing I miss from film DSLRs.
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Chris Barrett

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Re: Wishful thinking... S2 Glass on A7r
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2015, 09:02:51 pm »

BTW, those are the Sumicrons.  I put my name down for a set when they were announced but then sanity sunk in.  The Summiluxes come as a set of 8 and are $250k.  All the high end fast (T1.4) glass from Leica, Zeiss and Cooke average $25k a lens.

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Wishful thinking... S2 Glass on A7r
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2015, 09:15:39 pm »

Probably not me, because I'd rather use it on an S, but some people love Leica glass.   Have you seen the price of Leica PL mount cinema Lenses. The lens caps costs more most lenses and the last three large projects I've seen produced in Hollywood all had Leica glass.

I think we agree here. The S glass is more than superb, but it makes most sense mounted to an S camera.

I do love Leica glass too btw, I am the happy owner of 2 of the best Leica R lenses ever designed, their 180mm f2.8 APO and the 280mm f4 APO and they are truly excellent (not anymore the best lenses I own though).

I am well aware that cinema glass is in a totally different league from a price standpoint (my wife used to sell some of those many years ago), but this results from the totally different cost structures of motion pictures compared to still photography, right? Many publications struggle to survive while some guys in Hollywood make hundreds of millions.

Cheers,
Bernard

peterv

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Re: Wishful thinking... S2 Glass on A7r
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2015, 11:03:21 am »


Here we go again ...

Having the possibility to use S lenses on FF bodies would be nice, but:
- unless Leica invests very high amounts in reverse engineering Canon/Nikon AF, these S lenses would end up serving as manual lenses,

Of course we're talking about completely reverse engineered adapters, I thought I made that clear. As for 'investing very high amounts', obviously, that is a non-issue. They already did this for Hasseblad H and Contax 645, which are small markets, compared to CaNikon and Sony.

- their focal lengths are a bit unusual in 35mm terms,

Which FL's are you talking about? There's 24, 30, 35, 45, 70, 100, 120 and 180. Plus the 30-90 zoom and the 120mm tilt/shift. So who is going to see the difference in AOV between a photo taken on 30mm instead of 28mm after cropping/straightening horizon, etc? Or between a 70mm and a 75mm? To each their own, of course.

- they offer limited shallow DoF options,

I agree, but these days, with high res sensors, who wants to do critical shooting on f1,4 or f2,0. (Especially troublesome with your manual focus Otus through the relatively small and dark CaNikon viewfinders)

- they are extremely expensive compared to the very best 35mm options (average almost twice as expensive as the Otus) and are probably inferior to them per pixel (at least to the Otus, 200mm f2.0 and longer super tele offering blistering fast AF and stabilization), since the S lenses have to cover a larger image circle (measure would tell). Judging from the M mount, recent Zeiss offerings such as the 35mm f1.4 ZM seem at least not inferior to their Leica equivalent at a significantly lower price point.

The S lenses are not twice as expensive as the two Otusses. They are more expensive, but for that you get a lot more. We've discussed this more than once before and I won't bore everyone again. I really don't understand why you have to come in to every S thread and start the same old broken Otus-record again.

I don't think Leica will take the risk to invest considering this, the ROI would be low and the risk to the image of the S system as offering the best lenses would be high.

Obviously, I'm not afraid that might happen.

Now it's very possible some third party may decide to produce such an adapter, but... who would buy one? S lens existing owners will prefer to use them on their S body and who is going to spend 7,000 US$ to fit a 70mm f2.5 MF lens designed for AF applications on a DSLR?

Care to read my posts above? You can find the answer there.

I hope you take no offense, I'm not looking for a fight.

Cheers,

Peter
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Chris Barrett

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Re: Wishful thinking... S2 Glass on A7r
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2015, 11:28:25 am »

The whole thing is kind of silly and not that practical for many shooters.  I have some irregular practices and concepts, however.  I was thinking it would be great to have a compact kit for architecture that fits into a shoulder bag.  This would be highly useful for solo, overseas trips to shoot buildings.  Hartblei has converted the Nikon 14-24 to a tilt/shift kit for the A7r.  If I could add the Leica S 30-90 to that.  I'd be able to cover any assignment with a tiny amount of gear.

Just dreaming out loud...

peterv

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Re: Wishful thinking... S2 Glass on A7r
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2015, 02:34:08 pm »

Keith, thanks for the link! I enjoyed reading that article, I like most articles on TOP.

Chris, dreaming out loud is good! I can very well understand your wish to narrow down the amount of gear one has to bring along, in order to be prepared for different opportunities one might encounter.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Wishful thinking... S2 Glass on A7r
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2015, 08:09:22 pm »

The S lenses are not twice as expensive as the two Otusses. They are more expensive, but for that you get a lot more.

I hope you take no offense, I'm not looking for a fight.

This thread is about using S lenses on DSLRs, right? What's weird about comparing them to DSLR lenses?

Neither am I looking for a fight, having different views isn't fighting as far ad I know? I have made it very clear that I share the view that the S lenses are great on S bodies and that I would appreciate the option to be able to use them on DSLRs.

As far as pricing goes, the street price of the S lenses are overall between 1.4 (the 70mm f2.5) and 2.5 times as expensive as the Otus in Tokyo.
http://www.yodobashi.com/ec/category/index.html?ch=0001&disptyp=02&mkrbrnds=0000001266&oword=$30e9$30a4$30abs&page=1&searchtarget=prodname&autodiscon=true

http://www.yodobashi.com/ec/category/index.html?count=24&disptyp=02&sorttyp=SELL_PRICE_DESC&cate=&word=Zeiss+otus&ginput=ライカs

Personally, the only S lens I would consider potentially superior on my DSLR than what I currently own is the 24mm and that costs 2.2 times more than the Otus 55mm f1.4, itself seen as outrageously over-priced by most. That lens alone costs 1,500 US$ more than a new Pentax 645z body in Tokyo...  Again, who is going to buy that for a DSLR at that price point who doesn't already own an S body?

So I just don't think it's going to happen.

Cheers,
Bernard

peterv

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Re: Wishful thinking... S2 Glass on A7r
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2015, 04:11:51 am »

This thread is about using S lenses on DSLRs, right? What's weird about comparing them to DSLR lenses?

Neither am I looking for a fight, having different views isn't fighting as far ad I know? I have made it very clear that I share the view that the S lenses are great on S bodies and that I would appreciate the option to be able to use them on DSLRs.

Sure, the discussion was about adapting DSLR-glass (in this case Leica S) on a mirror-less and or a view camera. Since I'd given the idea of adapting S lenses some thought recently, I brought in my list of pros and cons.

As far as pricing goes, the street price of the S lenses are overall between 1.4 (the 70mm f2.5) and 2.5 times as expensive as the Otus in Tokyo.
http://www.yodobashi.com/ec/category/index.html?ch=0001&disptyp=02&mkrbrnds=0000001266&oword=$30e9$30a4$30abs&page=1&searchtarget=prodname&autodiscon=true

http://www.yodobashi.com/ec/category/index.html?count=24&disptyp=02&sorttyp=SELL_PRICE_DESC&cate=&word=Zeiss+otus&ginput=ライカs

Yes, after clicking those Japanese links I ended up in a labyrinth somewhere, but these are B&H prices:

Leica S lens line: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=leica%20s%20lens&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search=

The two Otusses: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?atclk=Category_Lenses&sts=ma&ci=15492&N=4293919655&Ntt=otus

So a normal FOV Otus is $4000, a normal FOV S (70mm) is $5.000. That not nearly twice as expensive, not even close. If you want to compare to the 85mm Otus, which is $4.500, so 10% cheaper than the S.

Of course there are much more S lenses, and most are indeed more expensive, but certainly not a standard twice as expensive. Besides, there are only two Otusses to compare to.

Personally, the only S lens I would consider potentially superior on my DSLR than what I currently own is the 24mm and that costs 2.2 times more than the Otus 55mm f1.4, itself seen as outrageously over-priced by most. That lens alone costs 1,500 US$ more than a new Pentax 645z body in Tokyo...

Funny you should mention the 24mm. I just got it last month, fantastic lens! Over-priced is subjective of course, have you seen the results with the 24mm? I payed €5.500,- 21% tax(VAT) included, for a second hand mint.

Again, who is going to buy that for a DSLR at that price point who doesn't already own an S body?

Not many photographers, for sure. The only thing I'm saying is: fully functional (Leica made) adapters could make such investments more versatile and therefore more worthwhile.

Cheers,

Peter
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Hulyss

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Re: Wishful thinking... S2 Glass on A7r
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2015, 06:06:27 am »

I thought that the Lula staff was pretty darn clear but it seems no ...



I personally get tired.

A7r, Otus, Nikon and so on do not have their place over here at all. I would go farer by saying (excluding 35mm and related topics)...
« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 06:09:58 am by Hulyss »
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Chris Barrett

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Re: Wishful thinking... S2 Glass on A7r
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2015, 10:16:14 am »

Just one of the reasons I find myself coming here less and less and less.  Thanks for your constructive advice.

paulmoorestudio

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Re: Wishful thinking... S2 Glass on A7r
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2015, 12:11:41 pm »

Just one of the reasons I find myself coming here less and less and less.  Thanks for your constructive advice.

+1
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Wishful thinking... S2 Glass on A7r
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2015, 02:29:58 pm »

Just one of the reasons I find myself coming here less and less and less.  Thanks for your constructive advice.

Chris, you and a few others like you are the reason I come here.  We have all been down this "it's a MF forum" thing many times.

Regardless of the format, this subsection is far more about doing work for commerce, that what camera is being used.  So many great tips that apply to guys (and gals) who earn their living with a camera.

Sadly I see less and less of that and it's a damn shame. 

Stick around, and just forget the whiners. 

As far as I'm concerned your work, advice and questions are always welcome here, no matter what format you are using today ( and with you, it could be just about anything 😀)
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Wishful thinking... S2 Glass on A7r
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2015, 04:20:43 pm »

Hi,

Some comments...

Leica made adapters for Hasselblad and Contax lenses, not the other way around. It seems that the Canon mount is very flexible, almost anything can be attached to the Canon mount. Making adapters may not be that difficult. There is a company called Leitax in Spain who makes a lot of interchangeable bayonet mounts.

Personally, I have significant interest in a 'A9' if Sony would be kind enough to make it. Mirex makes a T&S adapter with Canon mount for the A7x, it has been described here: http://www.getdpi.com/wp/2015/03/h-cam-master-ts-adapter/

I assume that I can buy an adapter from Canon EF to Hasselblad V, and that would give me tilt and shift with all Hasselblad lenses. Now, the widest Hasselblad lens I have is the Distagon 40. The lens I have on mind to extend FoV is the Canon 24 T&S. It could be used with a Metabones adapter. The other lens I would buy would probably be the Zeiss 135/2 APO Sonnar. A very good lens, AFAIK, albeit a bit long for my taste. The Otus 85/1.4 is preferable but a bit too expensive I feel.

My original plan was to go with the Hartblei HCam and my P45+ back. It is still an option. I would order the HCam with a Canon mount and buy the Canon 24 T&S. To that I would add a Mirex T&S adapter taking all my Hasselblad V-lenses.

Focusing is no problem with magnified live view, use it all the time on the Sony Alpha 99. IMHO the weak link is the A7r. I would like a camera with a EFSC (Electronic First Shutter Curtain), I have this on my Sony Alpha 99.

With the Canon mount, it would be possible to use all Canon lenses, but also most lenses for the Leica R and Nikon. Adding support for the Leica S2 would be technically feasible, but would need quite some reverse engineering to support aperture on the lenses.

AFAIK Leica S lenses are in great demand, so it is not very probable that Leica would make adapters to expand the market for their lenses. Someone else may do it, but I would guess it is a limited market and risk of litigation regarding intellectual property is pretty high.

Best regards
Erik


Here we go again ...

Of course we're talking about completely reverse engineered adapters, I thought I made that clear. As for 'investing very high amounts', obviously, that is a non-issue. They already did this for Hasseblad H and Contax 645, which are small markets, compared to CaNikon and Sony.


I agree, but these days, with high res sensors, who wants to do critical shooting on f1,4 or f2,0. (Especially troublesome with your manual focus Otus through the relatively small and dark CaNikon viewfinders)

The S lenses are not twice as expensive as the two Otusses. They are more expensive, but for that you get a lot more. We've discussed this more than once before and I won't bore everyone again. I really don't understand why you have to come in to every S thread and start the same old broken Otus-record again.

Obviously, I'm not afraid that might happen.

Care to read my posts above? You can find the answer there.

I hope you take no offense, I'm not looking for a fight.

Cheers,

Peter
« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 04:22:43 pm by ErikKaffehr »
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