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Author Topic: Religious Freedom Act  (Read 140733 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #120 on: April 01, 2015, 05:54:22 pm »

My position, Andrew, is that I disagree with the apparent underlying philosophy in her statement. And if you insist, she is technically right. The first amendment is about government. I heard that argument many times, so it is not important who she is and what she meant.

My position is that the concept of free speech is so important, that it transcends technicalities. I believe free speech should be cherished, encouraged and protected by the society as a whole and by every member of the society, from attacks wherever they might come from, not just from government. While I respect individual rights to react to someone's free speech by boycotting them, I also consider organized actions to destroy someone for speaking their mind a form of social terrorism.

Take, for example, the former Mozilla CEO: he was destroyed for excising his civic duty, i.e., to "publicly support or oppose an issue or policy" (verbatim from the government's Civic Lessons). This is a frightening prospect: that people are afraid to speak their mind and take part in political processes in fear from "economic consequences." Remember, it is a civic duty, while a public debate on an issue of policy is going on, to take a stand. That stand might be to support or oppose. It isn't democracy, or a civilized society, to club to death those who "lost" in public debate once the issue is settled one way or the other. I repeat: this is a frightening prospect and will ultimately lead to a totalitarian society with a single PC truth on every issue. Trust me, I am coming from one of those.

AlterEgo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #121 on: April 01, 2015, 06:15:25 pm »

Indeed, Mr. Cook is so committed to diversity that he even does business with Saudi Arabia, the holy kingdom where gays are executed.

come on, Saudis are the best friends of the "Free World" ;D
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digitaldog

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #122 on: April 01, 2015, 06:19:30 pm »

My position, Andrew, is that I disagree with the apparent underlying philosophy in her statement. And if you insist, she is technically right.
She's correct about the facts of the first amendment but you don't agree with them. Great. And yes, several of us agree how she is technically right.

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Diego Pigozzo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #123 on: April 01, 2015, 06:31:54 pm »

This is a frightening prospect: that people are afraid to speak their mind and take part in political processes in fear from "economic consequences."
How it comes that "freedom from consequences" applies only to bigots?
Civil rights activists paid heavy consequences for their ideas.

Aren't your ideas worth the loss of money?
Because, you know, some lost more than that for theirs.

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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #124 on: April 01, 2015, 06:38:37 pm »

How it comes that "freedom from consequences" applies only to bigots?...

Now that's an intelligent conclusion from what I said.

Diego Pigozzo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #125 on: April 01, 2015, 06:42:10 pm »

Now that's an intelligent conclusion from what I said.

That's exactly what you said.

Let me make it easy for you to see:
a) A gay couple go to a photographer to get their marriage photographed;
b) It turns out the photographer is a homophobic bigot who refuses to do the job;
c) The gay couple post on their facebook page and twitter account something like "Don't hire this guy, he is a homophobic A-H";


Question for you: do freedom of speech give the gay couple the right to do c)?

« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 06:52:20 pm by Diego Pigozzo »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #126 on: April 01, 2015, 07:17:38 pm »

That's exactly what you said...

Do not deflect... Where did I say that freedom from comsequences should apply to only "bigots," as you claim I said?

As for your a,b,c question, if you read carefully my posts, you'd know I already answered that question.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2015, 07:19:09 pm by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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Diego Pigozzo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #127 on: April 01, 2015, 07:19:54 pm »

Do not deflect... Where did I say that freedom from comsequences should apply to only "bigots," as you claim I said?
Exactly where I showed you.

If your answer the question I made it will be evident even for you.


a) A gay couple go to a photographer to get their marriage photographed;
b) It turns out the photographer is a homophobic bigot who refuses to do the job;
c) The gay couple post on their facebook page and twitter account something like "Don't hire this guy, he is a homophobic A-H";


Question for you: do freedom of speech give the gay couple the right to do c)?

Is not that hard to answer.
Or is it?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #128 on: April 01, 2015, 07:25:24 pm »

Exactly where I showed you...

I'm other words, you can not show MY TEXT saying that...you can only wrongly infer something else from my texts, which I already qualified as "highly intelligent."

Diego Pigozzo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #129 on: April 01, 2015, 07:29:05 pm »

I'm other words, you can not show MY TEXT saying that...you can only wrongly infer something else from my texts, which I already qualified as "highly intelligent."

Oh, you're asking me where you WROTE "freedom from comsequences should apply to only bigots".
You never wrote that.

Nevertheless you said it quite clearly.

And just aswering the simple question I made will make it clear even to you.
But It looks that answering isn't your piece of cake, is it?

Anyway, let's try just one more time:

a) A gay couple go to a photographer to get their marriage photographed;
b) It turns out the photographer is a homophobic bigot who refuses to do the job;
c) The gay couple post on their facebook page and twitter account something like "Don't hire this guy, he is a homophobic A-H";


Question for you: do freedom of speech give the gay couple the right to do c)?


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markadams99

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #130 on: April 01, 2015, 07:34:46 pm »

In a free society one would have the freedom to discriminate, e.g. to discriminate against homosexuals or against those who discriminate against homosexuals. That's it. Michael and Kevin should always be free to rant against that freedom, but by seeking to make it illegal to discriminate, they open the door to those who would close down their own freedoms.

Diego Pigozzo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #131 on: April 01, 2015, 07:41:03 pm »

In a free society one would have the freedom to discriminate, e.g. to discriminate against homosexuals or against those who discriminate against homosexuals. That's it. Michael and Kevin should always be free to rant against that freedom, but by seeking to make it illegal to discriminate, they open the door to those who would close down their own freedoms.

The only problem with this is that the free society you're imagining cannot exists because it will auto-destroy itself.
How long can a society survive if a muslim doctor can refuse to treat a jewish patient?
What if a christian cop refuses to save an atheist's life from a murderer?
What if schools could refuse black students?

The act of discrimination is never acceptable in a civil nation, while the opinion is acceptable.
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digitaldog

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #132 on: April 01, 2015, 07:57:06 pm »

The only problem with this is that the free society you're imagining cannot exists because it will auto-destroy itself.
How long can a society survive if a muslim doctor can refuse to treat a jewish patient?
What if a christian cop refuses to save an atheist's life from a murderer?
What if schools could refuse black students?
The act of discrimination is never acceptable in a civil nation, while the opinion is acceptable.
Beautiful stated! The act of discrimination is never justifiable.
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Diego Pigozzo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #133 on: April 01, 2015, 08:13:21 pm »

Beautiful stated! The act of discrimination is never justifiable.
Guess what someone will say?
"Isn't the organized economic boycott of bigots an act of discrimination?"

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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #134 on: April 01, 2015, 08:16:06 pm »

...Anyway, let's try just one more time:...

Indeed, let's just try one more time: I already answered that in my post #120. But apparently, you do not read posts to understand the other side's position, you read just enough to find something to twist.

Diego Pigozzo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #135 on: April 01, 2015, 08:20:25 pm »

Indeed, let's just try one more time: I already answered that in my post #120. But apparently, you do not read posts to understand the other side's position, you read just enough to find something to twist.

No, you didn't answered, but that's not unexpected.
But, again, the silence is a good sign.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #136 on: April 01, 2015, 08:21:08 pm »

... The act of discrimination is never justifiable.

Except when it serves your ideology, of course, like affirmative action. But we are going in circles, as someone already pointed that out.

Diego Pigozzo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #137 on: April 01, 2015, 08:22:07 pm »

Except when it serves your ideology, of course, like affirmative action. But we are going in circles, as someone already pointed that out.
Sorry, pal: you're circling alone.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #138 on: April 01, 2015, 08:24:21 pm »

No, you didn't answered, but that's not unexpected.

What is not expected, is that you do not read or you are incapable to comprehend a simple statement like the one from my post #120:

Quote
While I respect individual rights to react to someone's free speech by boycotting them, I also consider organized actions to destroy someone for speaking their mind a form of social terrorism.

Diego Pigozzo

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Re: Religious Freedom Act
« Reply #139 on: April 01, 2015, 08:26:20 pm »

What is not expected, is that you do not read or you are incapable to comprehend a simple statement like the one from my post #120:

I do comprehend what you write much better than you.
So, since the point C) of the question you never answered involves economical costs for the bigot, again: do freedom of speech give the gay couple to tell anyone the know "do not hire that guy"?

Yes or no, it's quite simple.
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