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Author Topic: EOS 5Ds- why all this negativity?  (Read 53183 times)

Ray

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Re: EOS 5Ds- why all this negativity?
« Reply #140 on: February 16, 2015, 10:10:45 pm »

- Price?
- The willingness to have less dependency on Sony?
- Part of a broader collaboration framework?

Cheers,
Bernard


Hi Bernard,
Does Sony produce a 24mp cropped-format camera?

I'm not on top of all the recent developments. I tend not to pay much attention to camera brands I'm unlikely to buy due to lens incompatibility or the requirement to splash out more money on yet more lenses.

ps. The Samsung NX1 is an exception, being 28mp and having 4k video capability. I'm puzzled why DXOMark is so tardy in testing the camera. Perhaps it has too many unresolved issues.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 10:16:37 pm by Ray »
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Paul2660

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Re: EOS 5Ds- why all this negativity?
« Reply #141 on: February 16, 2015, 10:42:02 pm »

The Sony nex-7 was a 24mp cropped 1.5x sensor. I can't remember if the A6000 is 24mp or not. DR of the nex-7 was not very good past around iso400.

Paul
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Paul Caldwell
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Ray

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Re: EOS 5Ds- why all this negativity?
« Reply #142 on: February 17, 2015, 12:10:35 am »

The Sony nex-7 was a 24mp cropped 1.5x sensor. I can't remember if the A6000 is 24mp or not. DR of the nex-7 was not very good past around iso400.

Paul

Thanks, Paul. Checking the DXOMark site,  I see that the DR of the NEX-7 is almost a whole stop behind that of the D7100 at ISO 200. The A6000 is also a 24mp cropped-format and at ISO 200 is still a stop behind the D7100, despite being a more recent model than the D7100. At ISO 3200, the A6000 is about 1/2 stop behind the D7100, although SNR at 18% is about the same for both cameras at all ISOs.

Could the better DR be the reason, or at least one of the reasons, why Nikon opted for a Toshiba sensor?  ;)
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AlterEgo

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Re: EOS 5Ds- why all this negativity?
« Reply #143 on: February 17, 2015, 12:20:52 am »

Why not? Sony leapt from 16mp to 36mp, and Canon are now about to leap from 20mp to 50mp. The question I ask myself is why did Nikon choose a Toshiba sensor for the D7100? Did Sony not have the manufacturing capability?
how about just the price or making sure that Sony feels a competition and next time comes with a better offer... and for the quality of Toshiba design the banding speaks for it (vs Sony Semi)... not yet there.

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AlterEgo

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Re: EOS 5Ds- why all this negativity?
« Reply #144 on: February 17, 2015, 12:32:55 am »

Thanks, Paul. Checking the DXOMark site,  I see that the DR of the NEX-7 is almost a whole stop behind that of the D7100 at ISO 200.

that just speaks about camera manufacturer getting max DR from sensor - you can compare Sony Imaging cameras vs Nikon cameras where both are using Sony Semi sensor and still see Nikon (or Pentax) pulling ahead of Sony Imaging...

or compare E-M1 with GH4, both Panasonic sensor - yet DR graphs are noticeably different... different camera/possibly on die ADC programming/sensor assembly (including CFA, etc) design/etc with the same chip inside.



« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 12:37:34 am by AlterEgo »
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Ray

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Re: EOS 5Ds- why all this negativity?
« Reply #145 on: February 17, 2015, 01:18:08 am »

that just speaks about camera manufacturer getting max DR from sensor - you can compare Sony Imaging cameras vs Nikon cameras where both are using Sony Semi sensor and still see Nikon (or Pentax) pulling ahead of Sony Imaging...

or compare E-M1 with GH4, both Panasonic sensor - yet DR graphs are noticeably different... different camera/possibly on die ADC programming/sensor assembly (including CFA, etc) design/etc with the same chip inside.

All this sound like mere speculation. You asked me if I expect Toshiba to leap to 60mp full-frame. I have no inside information on Toshiba's manufacturing capabilities, and actually do not care who manufactures the sensor in my camera, as long as it performs well and is reliable.

The Toshiba sensor in the D7100 does not perform entirely to my satisfaction because of the banding. The board room intrigues surrounding the Nikon decision to opt for the Toshiba sensor in preference to the Sony sensor used in the NEX-7, might be interesting. Have you got reliable information on this?
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: EOS 5Ds- why all this negativity?
« Reply #146 on: February 17, 2015, 02:39:34 am »

However, what I find quite remarkable in this comparison of the 7D2  and the 5D3 at the pixel level, is how close the performance of the individual pixels are with respect to DR, yet the 5D3 pixels are significantly bigger. Before this announcement of the new 50mp camera came to my attention, I wasn't aware that Canon had made such significant strides in the development of the 7D2.

Indeed Ray, there was progress but it is not obvious as an increase of the engineering DR, where Sony has improved that aspect (and even on 4.88 micron pitch sensor arrays). Unfortunately Sony also crippled the Raw data a bit by introducing a sort of 'lossy' tonal compression. Canon have always been using very pure Raw data, which is a huge benefit if one intends to further utilize that data in post-processing.

It's by looking at the DxOmark 'screen' charts of DR that some of the underlying characteristics come foreward. In the case of Canon, we see a constant Engineering DR but at shrinking sensel pitches. Maybe it is indeed the ADC path length that is holding back a further increase of the DR.

Cheers,
Bart
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: EOS 5Ds- why all this negativity?
« Reply #147 on: February 17, 2015, 06:22:18 am »

All this sound like mere speculation. You asked me if I expect Toshiba to leap to 60mp full-frame. I have no inside information on Toshiba's manufacturing capabilities, and actually do not care who manufactures the sensor in my camera, as long as it performs well and is reliable.

No insider info here, but Toshiba semi-conductor is much larger than Sony semi. I don't believe they have invested in high performance imaging sensor technolgy to stop at APS-C sizes.

Sony is also probably not in a position businesswise to refuse significant business from Nikon either and they know that letting Toshiba get the D3x/D900 business would only help Toshiba invest more in imaging sensors.

Future will tell but Nikon appears to be in a superb bargaining position.

Cheers,
Bernard

Paul2660

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Re: EOS 5Ds- why all this negativity?
« Reply #148 on: February 17, 2015, 08:30:51 am »

Thanks, Paul. Checking the DXOMark site,  I see that the DR of the NEX-7 is almost a whole stop behind that of the D7100 at ISO 200. The A6000 is also a 24mp cropped-format and at ISO 200 is still a stop behind the D7100, despite being a more recent model than the D7100. At ISO 3200, the A6000 is about 1/2 stop behind the D7100, although SNR at 18% is about the same for both cameras at all ISOs.

Could the better DR be the reason, or at least one of the reasons, why Nikon opted for a Toshiba sensor?  ;)

Hello Ray

I was never that impressed with the Nikon 7100 DR and always assumed it was a Sony sensor.  Nikon to my eyes is a bit behind Canon on the APS-C cameras and the 7DMKii was a bit step forward.

Where I still see the leadership is in the D810. My only complaint on that  camera is no tilting screen. 

I have a 750 on the short list mainly for night work and will let my D800e go.

Back to rhw original post, I feel that the Canons will show very well once the cameras ship and photographers get them into some true field use.

Paul
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Paul Caldwell
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shadowblade

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Re: EOS 5Ds- why all this negativity?
« Reply #149 on: February 17, 2015, 08:47:38 am »

Hello Ray

I was never that impressed with the Nikon 7100 DR and always assumed it was a Sony sensor.  Nikon to my eyes is a bit behind Canon on the APS-C cameras and the 7DMKii was a bit step forward.

Where I still see the leadership is in the D810. My only complaint on that  camera is no tilting screen. 

I have a 750 on the short list mainly for night work and will let my D800e go.

Back to rhw original post, I feel that the Canons will show very well once the cameras ship and photographers get them into some true field use.

Paul

That's because the D7100 corresponds to the Canon 70D, while Nikon doesn't have an equivalent to the 7D2.

The D7100's sensor, while not the best (the 24MP Sony sensor does better), still beats anything Canon has, even two years down the line in 2015. It's the other features - AF, frame rate, card slots, buffer, etc. - that mark it as a strictly amateur or 'beginner plus' body rather than a pro crop body like the 7D2.
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dwswager

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Re: EOS 5Ds- why all this negativity?
« Reply #150 on: February 17, 2015, 09:34:14 am »

Hello Ray
I was never that impressed with the Nikon 7100 DR and always assumed it was a Sony sensor.  Nikon to my eyes is a bit behind Canon on the APS-C cameras and the 7DMKii was a bit step forward.

I'm not sure in what areas you might think Nikon is behind Canon in APS-C, but it's not in the sensor subsystem.  I've got about 80,000 shutter releases on a D7100 and am more than satisfied with it.  If you are thinking processing speed to support a little better AF tracking or a 2-4 frame per second bump in the frame rate, then yeah, I agree.  Put the D7100 sensor in a body with the Expeed4 and CF to support 8fps and better focus tracking and you basically have a 7DmkIII with better quality output.   The D7100 is a spectacular performer at it's current price point, but it is disappointing, that Nikon does not have a 8-10fps D300 replacement in the line up.  BTW, I do not have the shadow banding issue that people mention, but I don't use this camera for a lot of low key or long exposure images.  To me the usable ISO range tops out somewhere between 1600 and 3200 depending on all other factors.

Where I still see the leadership is in the D810. My only complaint on that  camera is no tilting screen. 

I have a 750 on the short list mainly for night work and will let my D800e go.

Back to rhw original post, I feel that the Canons will show very well once the cameras ship and photographers get them into some true field use.

Paul

A tilting screen would be nice on my D810, but it is an awesome camera.  It is a whole different animal than the D800e.  It is a little better in dozens of ways.  I debated between the D750 and D810 and now am I get down on my knees and thank God, I got the D810.  Theoretically, the larger pixels in the D750 should produce cleaner images, but that is only on the signal side.  The quality of the entire electronics package has a big impact on the noise end.  At the end of the day there really isn't going to be much difference.  I don't want to loose the 36MPs for a flippy screen.  Especially since the D810 in 6-7fps 25MP 1.2x and 15.6MP 1.5x Crop modes is fast enough to shoot a majority of the action stuff I do.  The D800/D800e could never pull that off.
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Paul2660

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Re: EOS 5Ds- why all this negativity?
« Reply #151 on: February 17, 2015, 10:01:25 am »

I'm not sure in what areas you might think Nikon is behind Canon in APS-C, but it's not in the sensor subsystem.  I've got about 80,000 shutter releases on a D7100 and am more than satisfied with it.  If you are thinking processing speed to support a little better AF tracking or a 2-4 frame per second bump in the frame rate, then yeah, I agree.  Put the D7100 sensor in a body with the Expeed4 and CF to support 8fps and better focus tracking and you basically have a 7DmkIII with better quality output.   The D7100 is a spectacular performer at it's current price point, but it is disappointing, that Nikon does not have a 8-10fps D300 replacement in the line up.  BTW, I do not have the shadow banding issue that people mention, but I don't use this camera for a lot of low key or long exposure images.  To me the usable ISO range tops out somewhere between 1600 and 3200 depending on all other factors.

A tilting screen would be nice on my D810, but it is an awesome camera.  It is a whole different animal than the D800e.  It is a little better in dozens of ways.  I debated between the D750 and D810 and now am I get down on my knees and thank God, I got the D810.  Theoretically, the larger pixels in the D750 should produce cleaner images, but that is only on the signal side.  The quality of the entire electronics package has a big impact on the noise end.  At the end of the day there really isn't going to be much difference.  I don't want to loose the 36MPs for a flippy screen.  Especially since the D810 in 6-7fps 25MP 1.2x and 15.6MP 1.5x Crop modes is fast enough to shoot a majority of the action stuff I do.  The D800/D800e could never pull that off.


I may need to revisit the 7100, I only worked with it for a brief time, and in the shots I took, I did not see what I was looking for in the shadows.

Yes the D810 is an amazing body, but at my age, and tired old back, the ability to have a camera such as the D810 held in a waist level is "priceless".  

What is even more disappointing is the huge dive the value of the D800e has taken, below 1K on quotes from various sources, so I guess best price on ebay would be in the 1.2K range, but after fees and shipping, it's all about the same.

Paul
« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 06:57:33 pm by Paul2660 »
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Paul Caldwell
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BJL

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Re: EOS 5Ds- why all this negativity?
« Reply #152 on: February 17, 2015, 11:31:24 am »

No insider info here, but Toshiba semi-conductor is much larger than Sony semi. I don't believe they have invested in high performance imaging sensor technolgy to stop at APS-C sizes.
This indicate to me the mistake of judging the capabilities of companies in a particular product based on total size, or the total size of a broadly diversified division like "electronics": there can be very different distribution of resources, expertise, relevant patents and trade-secrets within the corporation.  So although Toshiba, Panasonic and Samsung have bigger overall electronics operations that Sony, Sony seems to have a larger sensor business, with larger revenues through its "wall to wall" coverage of the sensor market from phones to DMF, and possibly still including the sensors for the majority of Canon cameras (at least most Canon compacts used to use Sony sensors; I have not kept track recently).

The ability to market a new sensor technology (like improved column-parallel ADC designs with more DR and less banding) in everything from hundred of millions of iPhones to millions of ILC's to some thousands of DMF backs could well enable Sony to allocate more resources to improving the design and fabrication details for such sensors.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: EOS 5Ds- why all this negativity?
« Reply #153 on: February 17, 2015, 04:36:27 pm »

This indicate to me the mistake of judging the capabilities of companies in a particular product based on total size, or the total size of a broadly diversified division like "electronics": there can be very different distribution of resources, expertise, relevant patents and trade-secrets within the corporation.  So although Toshiba, Panasonic and Samsung have bigger overall electronics operations that Sony, Sony seems to have a larger sensor business, with larger revenues through its "wall to wall" coverage of the sensor market from phones to DMF, and possibly still including the sensors for the majority of Canon cameras (at least most Canon compacts used to use Sony sensors; I have not kept track recently).

The ability to market a new sensor technology (like improved column-parallel ADC designs with more DR and less banding) in everything from hundred of millions of iPhones to millions of ILC's to some thousands of DMF backs could well enable Sony to allocate more resources to improving the design and fabrication details for such sensors.

I was not talking about Toshiba "electronics", but specifically about their semi-conductor division.

Sony is obviously larger today in imaging sensor terms, but my point was that Toshiba is obviously interested in the domain, already did a job superior to Canon in terms of image quality for what appears to be their first serious attempt (D7100) and has the technological potential and financial means to improve further quickly.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 04:41:37 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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BJL

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Re: EOS 5Ds- why all this negativity?
« Reply #154 on: February 17, 2015, 05:15:46 pm »

I was not talking about Toshiba "electronics", but specifically about their semi-conductor division.

Sony is obviously larger today in imaging sensor terms, but my point was that Toshiba is obviously interested in the domain, already did a job superior to Canon in terms of image quality for what appears to be their first serious attempt (D7100) and has the technological potential and financial means to improve further quickly.
Alright, replace "electronics" by "semi-conductor" (how much difference is there these days?)  It comes down to how much of good sensor design depends on general semi-conductor resources, which is often purely digital stuff where high SNR is irrelevant, versus how much is specific to the mixed-mode analog and digital nature of image sensors.  I agree that Toshiba has already done some good work with image sensors.

The greater mystery to me is why Canon has so far not followed the entire rest of the industry in moving to on-chip column parallel ADC, especially given that even far smaller design-only companies like CMOSIS and Aptina have made that transition, and there is no hint that Sony has a patent lock-up, given that for example Samsung was doing it even before Sony.  Maybe Canon still sees some advantage its its off-board ADC approach (low light performance?).
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: EOS 5Ds- why all this negativity?
« Reply #155 on: February 17, 2015, 06:09:57 pm »

Good question, my un-substanciated guess is that it may simply result from the mental deadlock of a key influencer near the top of their sensor design teams.

I have first hand experience in Japan with irrational behaviors that take companies in wrong directions for years simply because one key senior guy is mistaken and nobody around him (above or below) has the ability/guts to prove him wrong.

It can get to pretty unreal levels.

It could be something else at Canon, but it is really reminiscent of what happened at Nikon pre-D3 or at Sigma while the father of the current CEO was in charge. I bet that there are many frustrated sensor designers in Canon's team.

Cheers,
Bernard

dwswager

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Re: EOS 5Ds- why all this negativity?
« Reply #156 on: February 17, 2015, 09:41:06 pm »

Good question, my un-substanciated guess is that it may simply result from the mental deadlock of a key influencer near the top of their sensor design teams.

I have first hand experience in Japan with irrational behaviors that take companies in wrong directions for years simply because one key senior guy is mistaken and nobody around him (above or below) has the ability/guts to prove him wrong.

It can get to pretty unreal levels.

It could be something else at Canon, but it is really reminiscent of what happened at Nikon pre-D3 or at Sigma while the father of the current CEO was in charge. I bet that there are many frustrated sensor designers in Canon's team.

A big reason is the user base, especially one step down from the professional paid spokesmen.  But also the rank and file professionals and high end enthusiasts.    Nikon had the brass ring at their fingertips when they released the D1 and proceeded to step on their wang in the follow through.  Nikon shooters switched to Canon in droves because Canon executed better cameras.  Now that Canon is the one floundering around, Canon users continue to support their incompetence. 

Let's face it.  The 7DmkII with a better sensor is a world beater.  As it sits, its a trade off you make to get the focus and frame rates at a decent price point.  From a functionality standpoint, Canon is from competitive to leading.  Only their sensor subsystems really hold them back. 
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hjulenissen

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Re: EOS 5Ds- why all this negativity?
« Reply #157 on: February 18, 2015, 02:17:12 am »

Let's face it.  The 7DmkII with a better sensor is a world beater.  As it sits, its a trade off you make to get the focus and frame rates at a decent price point.  From a functionality standpoint, Canon is from competitive to leading.  Only their sensor subsystems really hold them back. 
But is the DR@ISO100 something that significantly holds back 7Dmk2 users at the tasks that the camera is targeted? Won't such a camera typically be used at higher ISO (where Canon seems to be quite competitive), and image quality held back by things like tele lens quality, IS/camera shake, AF (tracking) accuracy etc?

I understand that failure to have competitive max DR at low ISO may be an issue for landscape photographers using a 5Ds/r vs the Sony A9 (or whatever it will be called). Scenes where you have no active control over light, that may be printed very large, and where some might like to lift shadows by a lot. Stuff that is sort of solved by "HDR" at the cost of inconvenience, more time spent in front of a computer and hard-to-fix movement errors.

-h
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ZoltanZZZ

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Re: EOS 5Ds- why all this negativity?
« Reply #158 on: February 18, 2015, 10:08:36 am »

Well it has been a while since I posted and after reading this thread I thought I was on the Dpreview website, I had to check the status bar just to make sure I was not.  Without an actual production camera and raw data the discussion here can be compared to arguing about how many spirits can dance on the head of a pin.  Most of the discussion focuses on lack of DR in Canon sensors, this is what I have learned, DR changes with ISO and lenses, so do not expect the same DR across all lenses and ISO range.  I use a Sekonic L758 DR light meter and I exposure profiled my camera and lenses, a very lengthy process, and yes there is a slight change with different lenses.  My 5D MkIII with the 24-70 f2.8 has a rage of +3 to -5 EV from ISO 320 to 2500 and 2.5 to 4.6 at ISO 5000.  For the more knowledgeable readers they will have figured out that I pull my ISO and they may also know that Canon sensors perform their best with pulled ISO.  To get the most out of my sensor I set my ISO 2 button on the light meter for filter compensation and a setting of +2.3 for a safety margin in preserving highlights; I read the brightest part of the scene, press my ISO 2 button and the light meter gives me the best exposure setting for the sensor and lens, for both stills and video.  This works for 95% of the shots, for the other 5%, the in camera raw blending (HDR) does more than an adequate job and there is always post processing.  I try to reproduce the image my eyes sent to my brain, I let nature do the cooking not my software and since I do not overcook my pictures in post processing the 5D MKIII has not let me down.  If I am unhappy with a shot or it does not turn out the way I saw it, the failing is mine not the cameras and certainly not the DR of the sensor, good photographs are about composition and light not about megapixels and DR.
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dwswager

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Re: EOS 5Ds- why all this negativity?
« Reply #159 on: February 18, 2015, 12:23:21 pm »

But is the DR@ISO100 something that significantly holds back 7Dmk2 users at the tasks that the camera is targeted? Won't such a camera typically be used at higher ISO (where Canon seems to be quite competitive), and image quality held back by things like tele lens quality, IS/camera shake, AF (tracking) accuracy etc?

I understand that failure to have competitive max DR at low ISO may be an issue for landscape photographers using a 5Ds/r vs the Sony A9 (or whatever it will be called). Scenes where you have no active control over light, that may be printed very large, and where some might like to lift shadows by a lot. Stuff that is sort of solved by "HDR" at the cost of inconvenience, more time spent in front of a computer and hard-to-fix movement errors.

-h

The answer is...sometimes.  Yes, when shooting action you are inevitably going to start jumping up the ISO.  But I shot a high school soccer game a few days ago at base ISO!  Of course, it was set to Auto ISO 100-1600.  Had I had the D810 it would have been set 64-1600.  I was shooting in manual mode BTW.  Your comment about usually shooting at higher ISO basically says the 7DmkII is fine as a one trick pony (low light, high speed).  And it's not just DR, but noise as well.

To be equally harsh to Nikon, it is a crime that their best crop sensor camera is the D7100 and they never followed up on the spectacularly successful D300.  For less than a $1000, the D7100 is a great camera.  It can handle about 90% of all photo taking opportunities with output as good or better than the 7DmkII which makes it a great value.  So in the crop sensor market, you are forced to trade image quality/value on the Nikon side with Low light and fast speed on the Canon side.  Neither of these trades should need to be made.  Canon could purchase a decent sensor (if they can't make one) and Nikon could design a camera to go around the sensors they have available to them. 

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