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Author Topic: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters  (Read 78355 times)

barryfitzgerald

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #160 on: February 06, 2015, 08:43:02 am »

I suppose Canon needed a high resolution FF camera now they have 2 aka like Nikon
Personally I'm not overly interested in these, the price is high (a bit higher than expected) and the scenarios where I would need such high resolution are very limited indeed.
I understand why they have done this, but I think they will have to have better DR than any of their bodies has so far Canon are way behind on DR and it's very obvious.

I'm also waiting for someone to come along and moan "50mp isn't enough"  ::)
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CptZar

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #161 on: February 06, 2015, 08:54:54 am »

DP Review writes:

As far as dynamic range is concerned, we're told that the new 5DS and 5DS R should give the same performance as the current EOS 5D Mark III. If true, this means that the new cameras won't be able to offer the same industry-leading dynamic range of Sony's current APS-C and full-frame sensors, but at least it isn't a step backwards. And hey - 50MP!


Jack Hogan

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #162 on: February 06, 2015, 08:57:37 am »

Interesting the tests of the new Olympus E-M5 II multishot mode (8 shots at 16Mpx shifted by 1/2 pixel are combined into a 40Mpx JPEG or a 64Mpx RAW file). At imaging-resource they have compared it to the sharpness (and moiré) queens: the Nikon D810 and Sony A7R.

All three are native camera JPEG, downsampled from 40Mpx to obtain a similar output size in the case of the EM-5. Although the Olympus keeps up as good as the best of the others in sharpness (even after the image has been resampled twice, one in camera and then by the imaging-resource guys), it's the only one that manages to avoid moiré. It seems clear that although it has no AA filter, oversampling with photosites that overlap by 1/2 pixel act as an excellent AA filter. Can't wait to see the RAW files:

Why is there more detail highlight in the Nikon image when the Sony is the same sensor? Is that due to internal processing? It also has more HL detail than the Oly.
Likely recoverable in post or does it say something about the cams?

It's not clear how the E-M5II's 8 shifted captures are assembled into a picture (raw files = 102MB), so it's not easy to guess what could be a theoretical resolution for the scheme.  On the other hand, judging by DPR's Studio Scene raw files, the improvement in MTF50 at 64MP is of the order of 10+% or so over 16MP - and sensitive to imperfections/vibrations in the critical capture shutter speeds.  It's early days (using good ol' DCRAW 9.22) so the following may not be representative of final results:



For reference the E-M5II at 16MP tops out at around 900 lp/ph, the a6000 around 1100 and the D810 around 1300 (all data collected from unprocessed DPR Studio Scene raw files).  More detail here.

Jack
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 05:28:33 pm by Jack Hogan »
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shadowblade

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #163 on: February 06, 2015, 09:24:13 am »

DP Review writes:

As far as dynamic range is concerned, we're told that the new 5DS and 5DS R should give the same performance as the current EOS 5D Mark III. If true, this means that the new cameras won't be able to offer the same industry-leading dynamic range of Sony's current APS-C and full-frame sensors, but at least it isn't a step backwards. And hey - 50MP!




They've said it gives the same performance at the pixel level.

That is, 43% of the 5Ds sensor area gives the same noise/DR performance as 100% of the 5D3 sensor area.

100% of the 5Ds sensor area should do a good deal better.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #164 on: February 06, 2015, 09:51:10 am »

I'd like to see what DxO makes of the sensor.
there is also http://home.comcast.net/~nikond70/ - it is as good as DxO for that matter
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dwswager

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #165 on: February 06, 2015, 10:20:37 am »

DP Review writes:

As far as dynamic range is concerned, we're told that the new 5DS and 5DS R should give the same performance as the current EOS 5D Mark III. If true, this means that the new cameras won't be able to offer the same industry-leading dynamic range of Sony's current APS-C and full-frame sensors, but at least it isn't a step backwards. And hey - 50MP!

So what happens when the 50MP Sony arrives.  And you gotta believe there is a 50MP Nikon on the horizon.  Both of which have sensor subsystems that blow the 5Ds out of the water, especially for the intended target market.  While there is a high ISO market for a high MP camera, it is minuscule.  The bulk of the target market for these cameras is base ISO.  Basically if Sony and Nikon hit their marks, it makes the 5Ds a $2500 camera!
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 10:24:50 am by dwswager »
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AlterEgo

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #166 on: February 06, 2015, 10:47:43 am »

So what happens when the 50MP Sony arrives.  And you gotta believe there is a 50MP Nikon on the horizon.  Both of which have sensor subsystems that blow the 5Ds out of the water, especially for the intended target market.  

36mp sensors were not able to reduce Canon market share significantly vs 21mp (was that the max mp in Canon sensors ?).... why 'd 50mp do something drastic vs 50mp ? are you really expecting 50mp FF Sony sensor to gain something like 1 stop DR vs 36 mp FF Sony sensor in any metric (per sensel or scaled to the same resolution)  ;D ?
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #167 on: February 06, 2015, 10:54:03 am »

Preorders in April.

Sample images -

http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/samples/eos5dsr/index.html

PS: Those reddish blotches on the hippo's skin - are those aliasing artifacts?

As far as I can tell the hippo looks just fine as a hippo. Clearly the hippo has been involved in some fights which have left some marks. That's how it is to be a hippo :)

shadowblade

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #168 on: February 06, 2015, 11:18:18 am »

36mp sensors were not able to reduce Canon market share significantly vs 21mp (was that the max mp in Canon sensors ?).... why 'd 50mp do something drastic vs 50mp ?

That's total market share, the bulk of which is comprised of consumer-level bodies which have neither the 36 nor the 20/21/22MP full-frame sensors. Canon have maintained a lot of their total market share because consumer bodies make up the majority of it (although they are nowhere near as dominant as they used to be).

You need to look at it segment-by-segment. Canon gained a lot of studio, landscape and other non-moving-object photographers with the 1Ds line and the 5D2, winning them over from MF film. They then lost a lot of them when Canon failed to improve in either DR or resolution, losing them to Nikon and Sony. A large number of prominent landscape photographers who had previously listed the 5D2 among their regular gear moved to the D800e. But this represents only a small segment of total camera sales - the vast majority of sales, being consumer-level bodies, were unaffected by this, while Canon has also retained its market share in action photography.


Quote
are you really expecting 50mp FF Sony sensor to gain something like 1 stop DR vs 36 mp FF Sony sensor in any metric (per sensel or scaled to the same resolution)  ;D ?

Scaled to the same resolution, it would gain around a third of a stop if per-pixel performance were the same, all else being equal. Canon's 50MP would gain more than a stop over their current 22MP sensor, since it's more than a doubling of pixel count.
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Dave (Isle of Skye)

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #169 on: February 06, 2015, 12:41:09 pm »

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jjj

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #170 on: February 06, 2015, 12:49:55 pm »

As far as I can tell the hippo looks just fine as a hippo. Clearly the hippo has been involved in some fights which have left some marks. That's how it is to be a hippo :)
That image has a nasty digital look to it which personally I really dislike.
It'd have been much better to have the raw files to look at and tweak. Not that anything could open them.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 12:58:41 pm by jjj »
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barryfitzgerald

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #171 on: February 06, 2015, 12:56:01 pm »

That's total market share, the bulk of which is comprised of consumer-level bodies which have neither the 36 nor the 20/21/22MP full-frame sensors. Canon have maintained a lot of their total market share because consumer bodies make up the majority of it (although they are nowhere near as dominant as they used to be).

You need to look at it segment-by-segment. Canon gained a lot of studio, landscape and other non-moving-object photographers with the 1Ds line and the 5D2, winning them over from MF film. They then lost a lot of them when Canon failed to improve in either DR or resolution, losing them to Nikon and Sony. A large number of prominent landscape photographers who had previously listed the 5D2 among their regular gear moved to the D800e. But this represents only a small segment of total camera sales - the vast majority of sales, being consumer-level bodies, were unaffected by this, while Canon has also retained its market share in action photography.


Scaled to the same resolution, it would gain around a third of a stop if per-pixel performance were the same, all else being equal. Canon's 50MP would gain more than a stop over their current 22MP sensor, since it's more than a doubling of pixel count.

Even if it were true that would mean they would still be behind the Sony sensors for DR. Even their crop sensors destroy the 5dMkIII for DR really Canon should eat some humble pie and just use other sensors their sensor tech is so far behind it's not even funny.

People might actually buy more Canon cameras if they had better sensors just plain stubborn. I'm not sure what the problem is though all they have to do is buy a Sony sensor DSLR and take it down the the lab "hey build one of these" pretty simple right? Evidently it's baffled Canon for years

Very odd
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jjj

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #172 on: February 06, 2015, 12:59:49 pm »

I'm not sure what the problem is though all they have to do is buy a Sony sensor DSLR and take it down the the lab "hey build one of these" pretty simple right? Evidently it's baffled Canon for years
Reverse engineering isn't always that simple. Not to mention patents.
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eronald

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #173 on: February 06, 2015, 01:08:08 pm »

Reverse engineering isn't always that simple. Not to mention patents.


I spent months of my young life looking at polaroid mosaics of ICs.
There are always missing pieces, but once you see the shape of the hole you can figure what the piece is going to look like.  :)

Edmund
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #174 on: February 06, 2015, 01:21:19 pm »

I haven't complained about my 5Dm2 files, and I don't think I'll complain about having more than twice the resolution with this version, but I may hold off longer as the price point doesn't justify for the type of work on this camera in my needs, as I'll still be using a MF.

But for many this is superb. So the DR is not all that much better, yes they missed that, but for those on the fence between the Nikon, this 5Ds and Sony (the fence has now T'd off to 3 sections), They may stay on the fence.
But for Canon shooters this is an upgrade I've been waiting for.
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John Koerner

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #175 on: February 06, 2015, 01:50:31 pm »

Quite frankly, I am disappointed on 2 levels:

    1) The camera still has the same old, HD video ... they did not upgrade to 4K; and

    2) Canon didn't really make a conscientious effort to be better than (or even "as good as");

Basically, Canon followed a "mine has more mpx" route, which is kinda lame if you ask me. They are "passing the others" in a quantitative, not a qualitative, fashion ... which gets a big yawn from me.

I think the 7D II is a fantastic deal for what it is, the best fast-action, multi-functional, wildlife crop camera available.

I think the 5Ds and 5DsR are overpriced, average cameras, with no features that are distinguishably-excellent for a landscape camera.

If they had 4K, they might be worth the price.
If they had cutting-edge sensor technology, and 50mpx, they might be worth the price.

But to have the same old sh-t for a sensor, and the same old sh-t for video, just "more" of the same old sh-t, I for one wouldn't buy either.

Jack
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 01:52:29 pm by John Koerner »
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #176 on: February 06, 2015, 01:56:24 pm »

That image has a nasty digital look to it which personally I really dislike.
It'd have been much better to have the raw files to look at and tweak. Not that anything could open them.

I do too disagree, but the lighting conditions for that shot is a lot of strong sun and this will give this look. I do agree it would be nice to have RAW files to play with but until we have a RAW converter that handles the files it does help us so much. It also has a typical JPG look as all the other files to my eyes.

Hans Kruse

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #177 on: February 06, 2015, 02:03:44 pm »

That's total market share, the bulk of which is comprised of consumer-level bodies which have neither the 36 nor the 20/21/22MP full-frame sensors. Canon have maintained a lot of their total market share because consumer bodies make up the majority of it (although they are nowhere near as dominant as they used to be).

You need to look at it segment-by-segment. Canon gained a lot of studio, landscape and other non-moving-object photographers with the 1Ds line and the 5D2, winning them over from MF film. They then lost a lot of them when Canon failed to improve in either DR or resolution, losing them to Nikon and Sony. A large number of prominent landscape photographers who had previously listed the 5D2 among their regular gear moved to the D800e. But this represents only a small segment of total camera sales - the vast majority of sales, being consumer-level bodies, were unaffected by this, while Canon has also retained its market share in action photography.


Scaled to the same resolution, it would gain around a third of a stop if per-pixel performance were the same, all else being equal. Canon's 50MP would gain more than a stop over their current 22MP sensor, since it's more than a doubling of pixel count.

I'm not so sure that Canon lost so many as you might think. I run workshops and have so far had several hundred clients. I can say that for the returning customers which are plenty that almost none has switched system, a few has bought a Sony A7 to complement the Canon. I do explain that due the DR of the Canon they need a shooting technique where they never underexpose and that is the key to get the results with the Canon sensor. I shoot Canon and Nikon side by side and do like the Nikon DR a lot, but often I like the Canon better for the colors.

We can all have our feeling about how many have changed, but I have never seen any statistics.

Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #178 on: February 06, 2015, 02:14:58 pm »

I think the 5D when first anounced was such a strong hit, and even the !d line, and so on with some lenses, we don't expect Canon to play along the others fields. I think of Canon as he company that is quietly working at night doing what Canon does, and while having a small ear on whats going on, always surprising us with a new product. This one as mentioned plays the mpixel number game, and we are not so surprises, but perhaps they were making too wide a gap and had to do something in all this time, but just didn't make the DR improvement.

It is their own sensor, and they must have needed to respond with something in a closer timeline.  Of course this is all just guessing. I think comapies like this are successful with having a number of cards to play and just pulling the one that applies? 

Now that they have the mpixel down...What if next year or in 2 years Canon says DR it is, wapppow!...slams down a Foveon, or that honeycomb Fuji, or maybe something along those lines enough for them to take a different road and say..."How you like them apples for DR"?!! ...One can wish a little :-)
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shadowblade

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Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
« Reply #179 on: February 06, 2015, 02:17:11 pm »

I'm not so sure that Canon lost so many as you might think. I run workshops and have so far had several hundred clients. I can say that for the returning customers which are plenty that almost none has switched system, a few has bought a Sony A7 to complement the Canon. I do explain that due the DR of the Canon they need a shooting technique where they never underexpose and that is the key to get the results with the Canon sensor. I shoot Canon and Nikon side by side and do like the Nikon DR a lot, but often I like the Canon better for the colors.

We can all have our feeling about how many have changed, but I have never seen any statistics.

In the landscape-focused wilderness trips that I accompany (either as a photography tutor, medical escort or independent photographer) there have been many changes in the past seven years.

Initially, it was almost exclusively Canon bodies - mostly 5D2 and 1Ds3. It was rare to see a Nikon D700 - while this was probably a much better all-round camera, it lacked the resolution of the Canon bodies and did not have the dynamic range of later Exmor sensors.

In the following years, I would see the occasional A900 or D3x, but, by and large, it remained dominated by the Canon 5D2.

All this changed in 2012 with the release of the D800/D800e and the 5D3. I continued to see lots of 5D2s, but also saw an increasing number of D800 and D800e bodies, with relatively few 5D3s

In the trips I accompanied last year, I was now seeing mostly Nikon bodies, as well as Sony bodies with Canon lenses attached, with a few old 5D2s but very few newer Canon bodies. So the tide has completely turned in Nikon/Sony's favour.

All of this, of course, is a very narrow snapshot of one specific segment of photography (landscape) but the same seems to be reflected in the equipment lists of many prominent landscape photographers - where they used to list the 5D2, many now seem to list the D800e or D810 instead.

Re: Canon vs Nikon colours - once I take them into Photoshop it makes no difference anyway. But I find that Canon generally renders too warm and Nikon too cool.
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