Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: shadowblade on January 30, 2015, 02:21:43 am

Title: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: shadowblade on January 30, 2015, 02:21:43 am
http://photorumors.com/2015/01/30/this-is-the-new-50mp-canon-eos-5ds-eos-5ds-r-full-frame-dslr-camera/#ixzz3QHcLZecl (http://photorumors.com/2015/01/30/this-is-the-new-50mp-canon-eos-5ds-eos-5ds-r-full-frame-dslr-camera/#ixzz3QHcLZecl)

Looks good so far.

But the key question is whether Canon have made up any ground in terms of DR.

Also, I wish they'd given it a base ISO of 64, or even 50, like the D810 - no-one buys a body like this to shoot low-light action, and a lower base ISO would help with both noise and DR.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: torger on January 30, 2015, 05:45:30 am
Also, I wish they'd given it a base ISO of 64, or even 50, like the D810 - no-one buys a body like this to shoot low-light action, and a lower base ISO would help with both noise and DR.

It's not that simple with digital. The original reason why digital cameras had low ISO is that most of the light is not registered at all, so you need to expose it for a longer time -> lower ISO. A low ISO cannot be directly translated to improved quality as you could in the film days (where all light is registered).

Then sensors became better at registering more light, by the use of microlenses and thus base ISO go up. To make ISO down in "a good way" you need higher full-well capacity so each pixel can gather more light before it clips. Some has happened in that area too, but most gains in DR come from lower noise levels in the electronics.

The new Canon looks exciting in any case, can't wait for the official announcement :). They could be using a Sony sensor or traded some Sony patents so they may have the DR, if they don't have people will get very disappointed.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: shadowblade on January 30, 2015, 06:03:06 am
It's not that simple with digital. The original reason why digital cameras had low ISO is that most of the light is not registered at all, so you need to expose it for a longer time -> lower ISO. A low ISO cannot be directly translated to improved quality as you could in the film days (where all light is registered).

Then sensors became better at registering more light, by the use of microlenses and thus base ISO go up. To make ISO down in "a good way" you need higher full-well capacity so each pixel can gather more light before it clips. Some has happened in that area too, but most gains in DR come from lower noise levels in the electronics.

The new Canon looks exciting in any case, can't wait for the official announcement :). They could be using a Sony sensor or traded some Sony patents so they may have the DR, if they don't have people will get very disappointed.

That's why I said the base ISO - the ISO where a full well equals maximum exposure. The lower the base ISO, the deeper the well, assuming the same percentage of photons are registered.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on January 30, 2015, 06:21:18 am
That's why I said the base ISO - the ISO where a full well equals maximum exposure. The lower the base ISO, the deeper the well, assuming the same percentage of photons are registered.

Hi,

Not necessarily the case. ISO rating (REI or SOS) is a calculation which combines the effective sensitivity of silicon based photo-voltaic processes and the optical density of the Bayer CFA filters (and the filter stack and sensor cover-glass). Well depth or storage capacity is more correlated with surface area than with physical depth.

The silicon based sensitivity component is more or less a given. It's just that larger sensel areas allow to store more electrons before saturation occurs. Therefore, smaller sensel areas will increase the base ISO value if everything else is kept the same. The only natural way to reduce that is by using a denser CFA/filter stack.

Other methods will not affect the Signal to Noise ratio, which is the quality improvement one usually hopes to get from using lower ISO settings.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: torger on January 30, 2015, 06:34:06 am
To summarize, lowered ISO through higher full well capacity = good as it means more registered photons; lowered ISO through lower quantum efficiency (QE) = bad as it just means more time is required to gather the same amount of photons.

I guess there's still a possibility to increase full well capacity by having the photo diodes cover more of the sensor surface, but technology seems not to be there yet at this sensor size, as you need to fit the wiring and stuff on the same side.

I don't think we're going to see any revolutionary performance from Canon here. The most likely is unfortunately that pixel design and DR will be the same as other recent Canon sensors, which will be disappointing in this type of camera of course. If the DR is the same as recent Sony sensor I think it will be due to some sort of collaboration patent swap etc with Sony so Canon has been able to implement some Exmor properties in their sensor, and in the least likely case it actually is a Sony sensor. We'll see, I'm very very curious.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Paul2660 on January 30, 2015, 08:12:00 am
Actually, if the latest rumors are true, the sensor will be a Sony (not a big surprise) and thus I think you expect pretty good DR.

Sony, Canon and Nikon all should soon have offerings with this new 53MP sensor, Nikon more than likely the last.  It seems Sony will announce the high MP follow on to the A7r with this sensor about the same time the Canon is announced. 

Canon's version of the new sensor has their proprietary AF design built in, and only Canon will have that version of the chip.

Seems that next Friday is the big day, as the non-nondisclosure agreements  are over.   I am sure Lula will be bringing us all the new stuff soon.

Paul
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: torger on January 30, 2015, 08:58:22 am
While at discussing rumors I've found it interesting that the max ISO is at low 6400, and the rumor has it that the CFA filters have been optimized for color accuracy rather than high ISO performance, something medium format cameras is said to have had all the time. If that's true it would be just awesome.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: davidgp on January 30, 2015, 09:28:50 am
Actually, if the latest rumors are true, the sensor will be a Sony (not a big surprise) and thus I think you expect pretty good DR.

For me if that rumor becomes true, even as a landscape Canon shooter it will be a welcome one, will means that Sony is starting to have a monopoly in digital sensor production... I always like the situation where you have two or more competitors, keeping the price check and the innovation going on...
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: davidgp on January 30, 2015, 09:32:52 am
http://photorumors.com/2015/01/30/this-is-the-new-50mp-canon-eos-5ds-eos-5ds-r-full-frame-dslr-camera/#ixzz3QHcLZecl (http://photorumors.com/2015/01/30/this-is-the-new-50mp-canon-eos-5ds-eos-5ds-r-full-frame-dslr-camera/#ixzz3QHcLZecl)


If it is what finally it is announce next Friday (I don't doubt it), about f%&/%$& time that Canon puts an intervalometer and a bulb timer in its cameras... (this is something that sadly Canon is not alone... )

Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Paul2660 on January 30, 2015, 10:24:28 am
If it is what finally it is announce next Friday (I don't doubt it), about f%&/%$& time that Canon puts an intervalometer and a bulb timer in its cameras... (this is something that sadly Canon is not alone... )



What has amazed me is that none of the major players have figured this out.  With Magic Lantern installed on 6D, you can run a true time lapse series, longer than 30 seconds.  It's the only built in process I have seen. 

Sony, has nothing, besides their toy app, called time lapse which again limits you to 30 seconds.  Nikon has a "built in" intervalometer, but no bulb timer, so again you are limited to 30 seconds, Fuji et all, Canon et all, 

As it was easy enough to implement with Magic Lantern, I am still amazed that no one else has tried to do this.  It can't be that hard to do. 

So for now, with Canon, Fuji and Nikon, you still need the external cable mounted intervalometer, Wtih Sony, there is not even that.  What a waste.

Paul
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: LKaven on January 30, 2015, 10:36:24 am
The rumored specs include "regular sensitivity: ISO 100-6400".

Hmm.  If this is an Exmor, I'm surprised to see it top out at ISO 6400. 
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: NancyP on January 30, 2015, 12:43:24 pm
My 50 buck wired intervalometer/ ordinary shutter release does fine.
I will be very interested to see if this is going to be an ideal landscape camera.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: dwswager on January 30, 2015, 02:57:22 pm
http://photorumors.com/2015/01/30/this-is-the-new-50mp-canon-eos-5ds-eos-5ds-r-full-frame-dslr-camera/#ixzz3QHcLZecl (http://photorumors.com/2015/01/30/this-is-the-new-50mp-canon-eos-5ds-eos-5ds-r-full-frame-dslr-camera/#ixzz3QHcLZecl)

Looks good so far.

But the key question is whether Canon have made up any ground in terms of DR.

Also, I wish they'd given it a base ISO of 64, or even 50, like the D810 - no-one buys a body like this to shoot low-light action, and a lower base ISO would help with both noise and DR.

Assuming that the rumors of them using a Sony senor are true, this has the makings for a great landscape camera.  My point is that I think by 48-50MP you has overshot the general purpose market and are into a specialty area.  Its going to take a tremendous amount of processing and bandwidth to push 50MPs around inside the camera and out.  I think that is where the D800/D800e surprised people, even Nikon.  I think it was supposed to be a specialty camera, but the market said otherwise and that is why we saw a speedier and more functional update rather quickly to capitalize on that.

As a D810 owner, I will disagree on the whole shoot low light action comment.  I personally think that at the moment, the D810 and the D750 (if your willing to sacrifice 12MP) are the best GENERAL PURPOSE DSLRs on the market.  I know the D810 has great low light capability both from good high ISO performance and the ability to pull detail from the shadows will little noise.  It shoots 5fps standard, 6fps in 1.2X (24MP) and 1.5X (15.6MP) crop mode and will shoot 7fps in DX with the battery grip.  While most of my Sports are outside daytime, I just shot an indoor Futsal soccer tournament with the D810 with no problems at all.  I've only had it since late November, 2014, but the more I use it the more I know this is the camera I had been waiting years to get my hands on.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 30, 2015, 03:47:25 pm
I am a bit surprised by these Exmor rumors in the new Canon. My sources, that seemed very credible, were saying that there was no way Canon was going to use a Sony sensor.

We'll know in a week it seems. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: AlterEgo on January 30, 2015, 03:54:28 pm
I am a bit surprised by these Exmor rumors in the new Canon. My sources, that seemed very credible, were saying that there was no way Canon was going to use a Sony sensor.

even if Canon is not using Sony sensor the mere fact of Canon FF dSLR with purely Canon 50mp sensor will provide more push to make Sony 50mp sensor a reality rather sooner than later... so win-win in any case
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: AlterEgo on January 30, 2015, 03:55:54 pm
The rumored specs include "regular sensitivity: ISO 100-6400".

Hmm.  If this is an Exmor, I'm surprised to see it top out at ISO 6400. 

that's a camera's maker call where to top regular ISO on camera - not sensor maker ...
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: AlterEgo on January 30, 2015, 03:57:53 pm
something medium format cameras is said to have had all the time.

or did they say that just because of CCD sensor tech (readout noise w/o cooling of CCD sensor in a consumer level device) ?
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: dwswager on January 30, 2015, 06:11:46 pm
I am a bit surprised by these Exmor rumors in the new Canon. My sources, that seemed very credible, were saying that there was no way Canon was going to use a Sony sensor.

We'll know in a week it seems. ;)

I have zero sources, but having waited this long and using an out of house sensor at this point would seem to indicate capitulation.  Three years ago is looks like a smart management decision.  Now it shouts total management failure AFTER you squandered a 17% market share lead over your competitor! Which is why I just don't believe they will go out of house.

I'm actually rooting for the in-house guys!  But here is the big question:  How is it received if it in house and does not perform in the same class as the Sony sensored cameras?
 
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: fdisilvestro on January 30, 2015, 08:38:31 pm
But here is the big question:  How is it received if it in house and does not perform in the same class as the Sony sensored cameras?
 

There will be endless threads in on-line forums bashing Canon, mostly by non-owners (and without proper knowledge of digital signal processing). On the other hand there will be great photographers producing outstanding images using those cameras.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: John Koerner on January 30, 2015, 08:52:49 pm
Is the video 4K?
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: LKaven on January 30, 2015, 08:54:04 pm
There will be endless threads in on-line forums bashing Canon, mostly by non-owners (and without proper knowledge of digital signal processing). On the other hand there will be great photographers producing outstanding images using those cameras.

...and an even greater number of studio photographers moving to Nikon (and perhaps to Sony, if they pony up).
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 30, 2015, 09:08:55 pm
Hi,

It seems that it will have a Canon manufactured sensor, according to latest rumors.

Best regards
Erik

...and an even greater number of studio photographers moving to Nikon (and perhaps to Sony, if they pony up).
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: LKaven on January 30, 2015, 09:23:42 pm
It seems that it will have a Canon manufactured sensor, according to latest rumors.

I'll be keen to see what they've come up with.  I expect popcorn stocks will rise close to the release date.  Either way, it will be interesting.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: E.J. Peiker on January 30, 2015, 09:47:31 pm
If it is just 7D Mk II sensor technology scaled to full frame, there will be lots of disappointment.  I hope they did not take the easier path and really do have a sensor built on newer semiconductor technology.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: uaiomex on January 30, 2015, 09:58:59 pm
There will be endless threads in on-line forums bashing Canon, mostly by non-owners (and without proper knowledge of digital signal processing). On the other hand there will be great photographers producing outstanding images using those cameras.

I don't care who makes the sensor. It can be Canon, Sony, Canon-Sony, Samsung or Canon-Samsung, I don't care. If at least it doesn't have 14-stops of DR. I will start migration to Sony. (13.8 stops or more to be exact). There you have it Kuanon!

Eduardo
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: dwswager on January 30, 2015, 10:05:51 pm
I don't care who makes the sensor. It can be Canon, Sony, Canon-Sony, Samsung or Canon-Samsung, I don't care. If at least it doesn't have 14-stops of DR. I will start migration to Sony. (13.8 stops or more to be exact). There you have it Kuanon!

Eduardo

Oh, Lord, don't even think like that.  Sensor wise, the 7DmkII is basically the same performance as the 7DmkI with a software tweak (a little better gain strategy)!
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: LKaven on January 30, 2015, 10:48:28 pm
Oh, Lord, don't even think like that.  Sensor wise, the 7DmkII is basically the same performance as the 7DmkI with a software tweak (a little better gain strategy)!

And yet one would think that if Canon had another sensor technology waiting in the wings, the 7DII would have been the camera in which to introduce it.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Joe Towner on January 30, 2015, 10:52:30 pm
It'll be interesting to see how many Canon folks bitch and complain about something.

MF has taught me that if your technique isn't perfect, your images will tattle.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: uaiomex on January 30, 2015, 11:46:59 pm
And yet one would think that if Canon had another sensor technology waiting in the wings, the 7DII would have been the camera in which to introduce it.

Paraphrasing dwswager:

Oh, Lord, don't even think like that.  We're screwed!
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: telyt on January 31, 2015, 12:48:10 am
... the rumor has it that the CFA filters have been optimized for color accuracy rather than high ISO performance, something medium format cameras is said to have had all the time. If that's true it would be just awesome.

Might be a suitable replacement for my aging DMR.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Geraldo Garcia on January 31, 2015, 12:54:05 am
I guess everybody here is on the same boat, dieing to know how this camera will behave coupled with an Otus! :o
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Josef Isayo on January 31, 2015, 01:08:07 am
There will be endless threads in on-line forums bashing Canon, mostly by non-owners (and without proper knowledge of digital signal processing). On the other hand there will be great photographers producing outstanding images using those cameras.


Thats going on right now. Unfortunately the internet forums all full of DR/DXO chart readers who base their opinion on those.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Josh-H on January 31, 2015, 01:11:59 am
I am a bit surprised by these Exmor rumors in the new Canon. My sources, that seemed very credible, were saying that there was no way Canon was going to use a Sony sensor.

We'll know in a week it seems. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard


The sensor in these cameras is a new Canon CMOS fabricated sensor.

Based on what Canon has said in the past you can expect improved colour fidelity. Personally, I am doubtful you will see an increase in DR that matches the Exmor.

We need to wait and see how it tests and performs. Until then its just throwing darts at a board.

Amazing how many naysayers have large collections of darts though  ;D

Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 31, 2015, 02:22:50 am
Hi,

My take is that DR-wise the new 5Ds is going to be like a 5DIII, or better. It would be feasible that it could be a new generation of sensor having column-wise on sensor ADCs, we don't know until the sensor has been analysed.

Anyway, anyone who is happy with 7D or the 5DIII will be happy with the 5Ds.

The DR advantage of the Sony sensor is limited to low ISO.

As you know, existing Canon cameras are good enough to make competition winning images. Doubling the pixel count won't change that, but will offer some benefits.

I know two persons who shoot both Nikon and Canon, BTW, and I got the impression that they see the benefits of resolution and DR but they still really like shooting with the Canons. With the 5Ds the resolution advantage will become history, with DR we have to see.

Best regards
Erik


The sensor in these cameras is a new Canon CMOS fabricated sensor.

Based on what Canon has said in the past you can expect improved colour fidelity. Personally, I am doubtful you will see an increase in DR that matches the Exmor.

We need to wait and see how it tests and performs. Until then its just throwing darts at a board.

Amazing how many naysayers have large collections of darts though  ;D


Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: shadowblade on January 31, 2015, 03:12:25 am
Hi,

My take is that DR-wise the new 5Ds is going to be like a 5DIII, or better. It would be feasible that it could be a new generation of sensor having column-wise on sensor ADCs, we don't know until the sensor has been analysed.

Anyway, anyone who is happy with 7D or the 5DIII will be happy with the 5Ds.

I doubt it. They are aimed at two completely different groups of photographers. The 5Ds doesn't seem to have the same high-ISO capabilities as the 5D3, nor the same frame rate. Those who liked the 5D3 (specifically, those who preferred the 5D3 over the D800e/D810) probably won't have the same preference for the 5Ds, but will wait for the 5D4.

Quote
The DR advantage of the Sony sensor is limited to low ISO.

The likely customers for a 50MP body - landscape and studio photographers, and others shooting things that don't move - tend to live at low ISO. Canon sensors being equal at ISO 6400 is irrelevant if you never go past ISO 800. Just like Son's low-ISO superiority is irrelevant if you shoot live music and never dip below ISO 3200.

Quote
As you know, existing Canon cameras are good enough to make competition winning images. Doubling the pixel count won't change that, but will offer some benefits.

I know two persons who shoot both Nikon and Canon, BTW, and I got the impression that they see the benefits of resolution and DR but they still really like shooting with the Canons. With the 5Ds the resolution advantage will become history, with DR we have to see.

Increasing the DR won't make your photos any better. But they will allow you to capture images up to your usual standard in a greater range of situations. There were a significant number of situations I couldn't adequately capture with the 5D2 - high-contrast, especially backlit, scenes where terrain and movement precluded ND filters or exposure bracketing, especially shooting from rocking boats or helicopters - that became much easier with the added DR of the A7r. The added DR didn't make my shots any better. But they allowed me to shoot in situations where I was previously unable to take a technically-good image, chiefly due to shadow noise.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: LKaven on January 31, 2015, 04:30:50 am
The likely customers for a 50MP body - landscape and studio photographers, and others shooting things that don't move - tend to live at low ISO. Canon sensors being equal at ISO 6400 is irrelevant if you never go past ISO 800. Just like Sony's low-ISO superiority is irrelevant if you shoot live music and never dip below ISO 3200.

I've noticed that since people have started working with the 645Z and (and other cameras using the Sony MF CMOS sensor), they have been exploring new creative options, including the use of high ISO settings, and I expect they'll continue to push the creative limits using whatever new cameras will afford them.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 31, 2015, 05:33:13 am
The sensor in these cameras is a new Canon CMOS fabricated sensor.

Based on what Canon has said in the past you can expect improved colour fidelity. Personally, I am doubtful you will see an increase in DR that matches the Exmor.

We need to wait and see how it tests and performs. Until then its just throwing darts at a board.

Amazing how many naysayers have large collections of darts though  ;D

Agreed.

Personally I see this as another potential option, I hope it performs significantly better than what we have today.

cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Jglaser757 on January 31, 2015, 06:33:53 am
Well, I shot with the 5 MK III until the D810 came out. I love the 36 mp quality and DR.  I can tell you first hand that the ergonomics were better on the mk III and liked the AF. But, shooting landscapes and going with big prints(60x40), I can see a difference in files.

I bet the cost is gonna be at least 4800.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Gary Ferguson on January 31, 2015, 07:00:13 am
I read the following on the Northlight blog about the 5Ds,

"there is a suggestion that the relatively low max ISO is from a much stronger set of colour filters than usual - more welcome news if so"

Can anyone explain what is meant by "a much stronger set of colour filters"?

Thanks
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: jjj on January 31, 2015, 07:56:57 am
There will be endless threads in on-line forums bashing Canon, mostly by non-owners (and without proper knowledge of digital signal processing). On the other hand there will be great photographers producing outstanding images using those cameras.
Indeed, although I'd add one minor correction - mostly by anonymous non-owners.  ;)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on January 31, 2015, 08:24:19 am
Can anyone explain what is meant by "a much stronger set of colour filters"?

Hi Gary,

Many camera/sensor makers strike a compromise between sensitivity and color accuracy. The sensitivity is boosted by using less selective, more transparent, RGB filters in the Bayer CFA. Those less selective filters will have a larger overlap between the color transmission bands, which makes it more difficult to extract the correct colors. So 'stronger' should be read as 'more selective'.

Whether the filters are indeed more selective, is of course still subject to speculation, as is the supposed announcement of a new camera.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 31, 2015, 08:46:58 am
Hi,

I guess it is a bit more complex than that. Colour filters are a compromise.

Best regards
Erik

Hi Gary,

Many camera/sensor makers strike a compromise between sensitivity and color accuracy.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Paul2660 on January 31, 2015, 09:09:05 am
I read the following on the Northlight blog about the 5Ds,

"there is a suggestion that the relatively low max ISO is from a much stronger set of colour filters than usual - more welcome news if so"

Can anyone explain what is meant by "a much stronger set of colour filters"?

Thanks

The stronger set of color filters, points to a Foveon type chip.  This was also mentioned quite a bit around Photokina times.  Canon does have a patent for this type of chip.  So far the Foveon style chip has not shown good high iso results, and this may point to the high iso of 6400. 

However since a lot of the talk comes from Canon Rumers, many have forgotten this post from about a week ago.

http://www.canonrumors.com/2015/01/a-sony-canon-sensor-partnership-mentioned-again-cr1/ (http://www.canonrumors.com/2015/01/a-sony-canon-sensor-partnership-mentioned-again-cr1/)

With either solution the new cameras will be I am sure highly regarded by most photographers. 

Next week will very interesting, and don't forget about Sony's new A7rII or A9, whatever it will be called.

Paul
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Gary Ferguson on January 31, 2015, 09:49:21 am
Many camera/sensor makers strike a compromise between sensitivity and color accuracy. The sensitivity is boosted by using less selective, more transparent, RGB filters in the Bayer CFA. Those less selective filters will have a larger overlap between the color transmission bands, which makes it more difficult to extract the correct colors.

Thank you Bart!
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: LKaven on January 31, 2015, 12:27:02 pm
The stronger set of color filters, points to a Foveon type chip.

I'd be /very/ surprised if this happened. 
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Paul2660 on January 31, 2015, 12:46:56 pm
I'd be /very/ surprised if this happened. 

I agree, but it would be a much bigger step, at least to me.

Paul
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on January 31, 2015, 12:57:17 pm
I agree, but it would be a much bigger step, at least to me.

As unlikely as that direction is, it would certainly make the file size explode ...

No, at approx. 8688 x 5792 pixels, with a sensel pitch of approx. 4.14 micron, (false color) aliasing artifacts are already less likely to occur. Nevertheless, I'd still prefer a version with AA-filter (OLPF), the EOS 5Ds. Digital Signal Processing (DSP) dictates the necessity for a Low-pass filter to reduce (color) aliasing artifacts when using a discrete sampling device.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: dreed on January 31, 2015, 07:45:41 pm
With either solution the new cameras will be I am sure highly regarded by most photographers. 

Lets not count our chickens before they've hatched.

Thus far, nobody has seen what comes out of the camera.

It will be interesting to see how it measures up at DxO.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: eronald on January 31, 2015, 08:50:29 pm
Lets not count our chickens before they've hatched.

stop crying fowl-play!

Edmund
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Gel on February 01, 2015, 09:19:34 am
The twist will be when it turns out the R has a Foveon sensor and the 50mp is the total of three layers.  :D

That would be the best Camera trolling ever.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Paul2660 on February 01, 2015, 09:31:33 am
The twist will be when it turns out the R has a Foveon sensor and the 50mp is the total of three layers.  :D

That would be the best Camera trolling ever.

That would still be a totally awesome sensor at full frame 35mm. Be it 20 or 25MP.

Paul
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Bernard ODonovan on February 01, 2015, 01:01:07 pm
Is the video 4K?

I did not think it would, if true, here is the latest rumor specs from the original source in Japan:

"- Sensor Effective Pixels 50.6MP. The total number of pixels 53MP CMOS
- 5DS R is a low-pass filter is disabled
- RAW (50MP), M-RAW (28MP), S-RAW (12.4MP)
- Media CF (UDMA7), SD / SDHC / SDXC (UHS-I)
- Dual DIGIC6
- Crop 1.3x and 1.6x
- Finder penta prism, 100% field of view, magnification 0.71 times, the eye point 21mm
- Electronic Level
- Grid display
- AF 61 points (41 points cross type). EV-2 support.
- ITR AF
- Anti-flicker
- Time-lapse movie
- Bulb timer
- Live View, the contrast AF (face recognition)
- 150,000 pixel RGB-TR metering sensor. 252 zone TTL metering
- EOS iSA system
- ISO100-6400 (extended with ISO50 and ISO12800)
- The shutter speed is 30 seconds -1/8000 seconds. Synchro is 1/200 sec
- Continuous shooting 5 frames / sec.
- Video 1920x1080 30fps (ALL-I or IPB)
- LCD monitor 3.2 inches 1.04 million dot
- Mini HDMI output terminal. External microphone terminal
- Battery LP-E6N / LP-E6
- The size 152 x 116.4 x 76.4mm
- Weighs 930g (CIPA guidelines). 845g (body only)"
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on February 01, 2015, 01:34:19 pm
No, at approx. 8688 x 5792 pixels, with a sensel pitch of approx. 4.14 micron, (false color) aliasing artifacts are already less likely to occur. Nevertheless, I'd still prefer a version with AA-filter (OLPF), the EOS 5Ds. Digital Signal Processing (DSP) dictates the necessity for a Low-pass filter to reduce (color) aliasing artifacts when using a discrete sampling device.

The idea that the lack of AA filter is better than having it has already extended in the photographic community. Discussing about the reasons why the AA should be there with non experts in signal theory is exhausting. I think this has become an opportunity for camera makers to charge you more for the non-AA version, when it actually should be the opposite.

Anyway, 50Mpx require such a weak AA filter that the differences in practice should start to become almost negligible.

Regards
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: dwswager on February 01, 2015, 02:25:45 pm
The idea that the lack of AA filter is better than having it has already extended in the photographic community. Discussing about the reasons why the AA should be there with non experts in signal theory is exhausting. I think this has become an opportunity for camera makers to charge you more for the non-AA version, when it actually should be the opposite.

Anyway, 50Mpx require such a weak AA filter that the differences in practice should start to become almost negligible.

I am certainly not a Signal Theory expert.  All I know is that neither my D7100, nor my D810 have AA filters and they are the 2 sharpest DSLRs I've owned or played with.  And neither exhibit moire or other artificats.  Whatever Nikon is doing, I recommend, they keep doing it!  The D800e was odd in that it actually had an AA filter, but then the effects were filtered back out.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: eronald on February 01, 2015, 02:28:51 pm
The idea that the lack of AA filter is better than having it has already extended in the photographic community. Discussing about the reasons why the AA should be there with non experts in signal theory is exhausting. I think this has become an opportunity for camera makers to charge you more for the non-AA version, when it actually should be the opposite.

Anyway, 50Mpx require such a weak AA filter that the differences in practice should start to become almost negligible.

Regards



I once had an interesting exchange with the Fuji guys who claimed that they were immune to aliasing by virtue of their sensor design. I asked what happens when you have a repetitive signal eg. at twice the Nyquist limit. And they replied that is impossible, the lens will filter that out :)

The AA filter has been such a mainstay of dSLR design that I am not sure we understand the *practical* implications of removing it. One should remember that much of signal theory was developed by the telephone guys, and they were interested in reducing the bandwidth before encoding for transmission... an issue that is not really present in high-end photography although doubtless relevant in video.

Edmund

Full disclosure - I'm not an expert, I just own an original edition of Shannon & Weaver that had been thrown away by an antiquarian bookstore :)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on February 01, 2015, 02:42:50 pm
The AA filter has been such a mainstay of dSLR design that I am not sure we understand the *practical* implications of removing it.

Hi Edmund,

It's quite simple. No AA filter (Optical Low-pass Filter, or OLPF in our case) means more aliasing artifacts. Since the Bayer CFA samples Red and Blue more sparsely than Green, the aliasing will create False color artifacts when demosaicing the different sized aliasing patterns.

Besides that, the filter stack is part of of the modern optical design, so leaving out parts will create chromatic and spherical aberrations, and that's why the AA-less versions of the cameras still need some blank material of identical refractive index (hopefully Anti-Reflection coated or kitted together) to maintain a proper optical path.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on February 01, 2015, 02:52:22 pm
I am certainly not a Signal Theory expert.  All I know is that neither my D7100, nor my D810 have AA filters and they are the 2 sharpest DSLRs I've owned or played with.  And neither exhibit moire or other artificats.  Whatever Nikon is doing, I recommend, they keep doing it!  The D800e was odd in that it actually had an AA filter, but then the effects were filtered back out.

If I were to choose between an AA or non-AA version, I'd choose the non-AA version (well, only if it were at the same price or cheaper), but this is just because I'm just a hobbyist and I like to play with 100% crops, and mainly because I don't need photography to pay the bills. If I were a professional, I'd certainly not take risks and I'd choose the AA versión. Even if moiré or artifacts are not very likely to appear, a client requiring or even appreciating the extra sharpness on the non-AA sensor is much, much less likely to show up.

BTW a part of the perceived extra sharpness is just non-filtered high frequency interference, not useful signal. A similar thing happens when noise is added to an image: the second image looks sharper, I just added gaussian monochrome noise to the former:

(http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/6192/monteg.jpg)


Bart and others have shown a good amount of siemens stars where it was clear how non-AA sensors create false high frequency artifacts when the scene contains fine detail.

Regards
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: eronald on February 01, 2015, 03:55:33 pm

Bart and others have shown a good amount of siemens stars where it was clear how non-AA sensors create false high frequency artifacts when the scene contains fine detail.

Regards



I don't believe in "magical" high-cut filters; there are always side-effects, including an attenuation below Fc, phase rotations etc.

Especially when as Bart helpfully points out we have two different sampling frequencies at work. In fact, someone should convince me that the alisasing will not persist because of these factors for any AA filter that does not cut off *well* below the frequency defined by the inverse of the BB or RR *diagonal* distance. (there may be a factor 2 somewhere there). The Bayer asymmetry is horrid, and the filter slope will possibly affect differently oriented color structures differently, creating problems.

I do understand some of the maths involved, and I'm not so sure that there is any perfect solution within the context of Bayer.

Maybe someone can run the appropriate simulators, and check, but using Bayer, and the kernels of real-world AA filters, and real sensors.

Edmund
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Josh-H on February 01, 2015, 04:43:04 pm
The twist will be when it turns out the R has a Foveon sensor and the 50mp is the total of three layers.  :D

That would be the best Camera trolling ever.

Just keep in mind that Canon hasn't actually said anything yet - this is just 'leaked' rumour. 'If" the camera did turn out to be 3 layer Foveon (which it won't BTW  ;D) it wouldn't be Canon that spread the initial misleading info...
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on February 01, 2015, 11:55:39 pm
I heard it would be $8K! I hope not.
If it is a out-house sensor, wouldn't the price also be closer to the numbers we are used to..sure a bit higher as it is 50 vs 36mp, but I don't think they should pass roughly $4K price point(?)
The D810 is under $3k now. How much a difference is the extra mp going to make in price? Given the pixel quality is equal.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on February 02, 2015, 01:18:21 am
I wish Canon worked with Foveon and gave that thing a boost! Sad that tech isn't being pushed hard to at least 30-40mp. They claim it now, but I heard from folks who use it it is a far from the claim.
Maybe if Canon worked with it, they could unlock some limits?
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 02, 2015, 01:44:49 am
Hi,

I guess it would be priced as a 5D camera and not like a 1D camera, but in all probability more expensive than the 5DIII. Than of course there is the subtle question of competition.

If Nikon introduces 50MP in a D4s at D4 prices Canon can keep price up, if Nikon will have a D900, the competition landscape may be different,

Best regards
Erik

I heard it would be $8K! I hope not.
If it is a out-house sensor, wouldn't the price also be closer to the numbers we are used to..sure a bit higher as it is 50 vs 36mp, but I don't think they should pass roughly $4K price point(?)
The D810 is under $3k now. How much a difference is the extra mp going to make in price? Given the pixel quality is equal.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: torger on February 02, 2015, 06:18:04 am
Yes I've tried to debate that it's better with AA filter, but 99% of photographers think it's a feature, end of discussion. They don't know about false detail and false colors around small details, and only look for large surfaces of colorful moiré, which indeed is quite rare. I'm quite sure the same thing as with the D800 will happen, the first model will come with both configurations, but the AA-filter version will sell so poorly that the followup will come in only one model.

When you know a bit too much about demosaicing and how artifacts look being without AA filter does not come up as a good proposition.

However, this sensor will through better area coverage with microlenses and relatively fuzzier lenses alias less than my Hassy... it shall be interesting to see some A/B comparisons between the two models by someone who knows what they're doing. AA filters are weak to not take away too much detail so they don't solve the aliasing problem completely either, so in the end one might end up with the conclusion that you could just go with the R version anyway.

For my Hassy I know it certainly wouldn't hurt with an AA filter, on the other hand as a software developer and hobbyist I find the problem of rendering from an aliased source as good as possible an interesting problem. If you're using RawTherapee you should use DCB demosaicer instead of Amaze, the latter is a tiny bit better at detail and a little bit more robust but DCB is better at hiding false color aliasing artifacts.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: hjulenissen on February 02, 2015, 07:58:55 am
Yes I've tried to debate that it's better with AA filter, but 99% of photographers think it's a feature, end of discussion. They don't know about false detail and false colors around small details, and only look for large surfaces of colorful moiré, which indeed is quite rare.
Some rumors suggest that this camera will have more color-selective CFA, in line with the landscape/studio/... pitch.

I wonder if more selective filters will exaggerate the problems with having no AA filter. To some extent, if the color filters are very wide/overlapping, this could introduce some "bleeding" prefiltering?

On the other hand, as long as sensel density develop faster than lens quality (or photographer technique), we might reach a point where AA filters are not needed for most of us.

I believe that the value of no AA filtering is highest when proper deconvolution cannot recover sharp pixel transitions (i.e. low light), and when color is of little importance. So is it the natural-light ISO12800 B&W photographers who crave no AA the most?

-h
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: dwswager on February 02, 2015, 09:44:57 am
Hi,

I guess it would be priced as a 5D camera and not like a 1D camera, but in all probability more expensive than the 5DIII. Than of course there is the subtle question of competition.

If Nikon introduces 50MP in a D4s at D4 prices Canon can keep price up, if Nikon will have a D900, the competition landscape may be different,

Best regards
Erik


I wouldn't expect the D5 to be no more than 24MP, 36MP the absolute max.  Basically 10fps would be the cutoff and I just don't see them able to process and push 50MPs worth of data around fast enough to support 10fps at 50MP.  There should and I would expect to see a higher MP variant.

Me, I'd have a D5, D5s (sports) and a D5L (landscape) and leave the D810 area alone for awhile.  But Nikon's marketing is so bizarre who knows?  Because I would have the D810, D750 and D610 and the D7x00 when it appears all in the pro style body and leave the Dial interface strictly for the consumer market.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on February 02, 2015, 12:02:34 pm
I've tested AA vs non-AA and there is a pretty significant difference. color bleed/contamination or not.
The files are much sharper, and have a more 3D quality to them. Even from the DSLR, they are more MFDb looking. Sure if you shoot lots of fashion clothing and fabrics close up or not, you will get moire.
But for many if not most, at least in my experience, I have rarely come across the issue using a MFDb without a AA, as most are, nor a DSLR without a AA.

I wonder if they could ever make this a filter like addition over the sensor, or  maybe even over the lens for those that really want to address the issues?

Anyway, I'm very happy to see this. What size are the photons on a FF 50mp sensor? (Wow)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: NancyP on February 02, 2015, 12:51:27 pm
I doubt that it is a Foveon sensor, but certainly a top ISO of 6400 (or less) would fit a Foveon sensor - the Sigma iterations are good to 400 for best color.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: jduncan on February 02, 2015, 04:41:09 pm
I wouldn't expect the D5 to be no more than 24MP, 36MP the absolute max.  Basically 10fps would be the cutoff and I just don't see them able to process and push 50MPs worth of data around fast enough to support 10fps at 50MP.  There should and I would expect to see a higher MP variant.

Me, I'd have a D5, D5s (sports) and a D5L (landscape) and leave the D810 area alone for awhile.  But Nikon's marketing is so bizarre who knows?  Because I would have the D810, D750 and D610 and the D7x00 when it appears all in the pro style body and leave the Dial interface strictly for the consumer market.

I believe what the poster mean is a successor  for the D3x not for the  D4s. So a D4x @5fps will be have a high price, and Canon could base the price the camera accordingly.
As I nikon user it continues to annoy me that  Nikon still on the same  51 with  15 cross type autofocus system that they had on the original D3. So the Canon auto focus will make it very competitive.

I am surprised that the rumor does not talk about 4K. Canon does not have the grip they use to have with videographers so I will think that they will  make a jump forward.  This is particularly telling since the 1Dc dropped in price.

Best regards
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: eronald on February 02, 2015, 11:51:19 pm
Torger,

 I would have thought that if one wishes to physically filter rb one destroys a lot more of the useful data in the higher resolving g.
 Also the spatial frequencies in the diagonal direction are dilated by another factor of sqrt(2) or so, which means one would need to filter ... even more brutally.
 And even if one does filter brutally there is still a differential effect on rb vs g due to the slope of the filter modulus, leading to color aliasing  ...
 This is purely a construct of my mind of course, feel free to set me right.

Edmund

Yes I've tried to debate that it's better with AA filter, but 99% of photographers think it's a feature, end of discussion. They don't know about false detail and false colors around small details, and only look for large surfaces of colorful moiré, which indeed is quite rare. I'm quite sure the same thing as with the D800 will happen, the first model will come with both configurations, but the AA-filter version will sell so poorly that the followup will come in only one model.

When you know a bit too much about demosaicing and how artifacts look being without AA filter does not come up as a good proposition.

However, this sensor will through better area coverage with microlenses and relatively fuzzier lenses alias less than my Hassy... it shall be interesting to see some A/B comparisons between the two models by someone who knows what they're doing. AA filters are weak to not take away too much detail so they don't solve the aliasing problem completely either, so in the end one might end up with the conclusion that you could just go with the R version anyway.

For my Hassy I know it certainly wouldn't hurt with an AA filter, on the other hand as a software developer and hobbyist I find the problem of rendering from an aliased source as good as possible an interesting problem. If you're using RawTherapee you should use DCB demosaicer instead of Amaze, the latter is a tiny bit better at detail and a little bit more robust but DCB is better at hiding false color aliasing artifacts.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: torger on February 03, 2015, 01:26:53 am
No you're right I suppose, AA-filtering in cameras is not about solving the problem, it's about reducing it to sufficient level without losing too much resolution. It is possible to get moire showing with a AA-filtered camera, it's just a whole lot harder.

As you don't solve the problem completely you could always argue that well, why not skip it all-together? That will depend on how aliased it will be in practice, as said earlier it will probably be less aliased than my Hassy back with tech lenses as the 5DsR has microlenses and less sharp lenses (but on the other hand you more often shoot it at apertures f/1.4 and such so diffraction won't save you), but I don't think it will be on a negligible level... we just have to wait and see I guess...

Torger,

 I would have thought that if one wishes to physically filter rb one destroys a lot more of the useful data in the higher resolving g.
 Also the spatial frequencies in the diagonal direction are dilated by another factor of sqrt(2) or so, which means one would need to filter ... even more brutally.
 And even if one does filter brutally there is still a differential effect on rb vs g due to the slope of the filter modulus, leading to color aliasing  ...
 This is purely a construct of my mind of course, feel free to set me right.

Edmund

Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on February 03, 2015, 01:51:57 am
First I bought this...Then I read this..... :-\

(Does anyone remember the Circuit City ad) :-)
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/cp-camera-rumors-so-far-a7000-a7rii-a3xxx-and-a99ii/

from site...
Quote
I even got info via Tamron sources about a new A-mount Full Frame camera with close to 50MP
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: davidgp on February 03, 2015, 02:20:47 am
I doubt that it is a Foveon sensor, but certainly a top ISO of 6400 (or less) would fit a Foveon sensor - the Sigma iterations are good to 400 for best color.

Maybe I'm mistaken here, but AA filters are there because moire is a problem in bayern type sensors, right? Foveon is not a bayern type sensor, so it will make not too much sense here to have a version of the camera with an AA filter on it...
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on February 03, 2015, 03:00:50 am
I think people are just wishing for Foveon. It would the ultimate in what DSLR's have to offer for now. With a 50mp, and a bit later Sony will have its 50mp, and there is still great things to gain from it, but not like what Foveon at a true 50mp size could do.

Was the Foveon limited in funding to further develop or was it a technical physics stop? Sorry, I didn't read all the technical back and forth, so perhaps it was mentioned. Maybe a simple answer is out there :-)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 03, 2015, 04:00:05 am
Hi,

Color moiré is a bayer issue but moiré in general is a sampling problem.

Color moiré is usually much more obvious than the monochrome version.

Best regards
Erik



Maybe I'm mistaken here, but AA filters are there because moire is a problem in bayern type sensors, right? Foveon is not a bayern type sensor, so it will make not too much sense here to have a version of the camera with an AA filter on it...
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: torger on February 03, 2015, 04:29:15 am
Personally I don't believe in Foveon. With current technology I rather have a higher density AA-filtered bayer sensor, better quantum efficiency it seems (and higher full well capacity), and better color filters as you can't really design color filters as precisely with Foveon. That is if you back out from pixel peep global color would be better on a bayer with color fidelity-optimized CFA, dynamic range is higher and and overall noise is lower.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on February 03, 2015, 05:04:33 am
Maybe I'm mistaken here, but AA filters are there because moire is a problem in bayern type sensors, right? Foveon is not a bayern type sensor, so it will make not too much sense here to have a version of the camera with an AA filter on it...
Yes you are mistaken. Foveon sensors can produce moiré as a result of aliasing if proper AA filtering is not done  It will be a 'monochrome' moiré though, much less visible since there is no colour interpolation. This makes eliminating the AA filter less risky on Foveon sensors.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on February 03, 2015, 06:39:43 am
Was the Foveon limited in funding to further develop or was it a technical physics stop?

While the Foveon is a quite an interesting technical achievement, it is not without some serious problems for high quality imaging. One of the major obstacles is that the color separation by penetration depth in silicon, delivers an almost monochrome rendering of the scene. It requires huge color separation factors to split the data into R/G/B planes. That separation process comes with an increase of noise, and the fill factor of the sensels is already low to begin with. Another problem is that penetration depth of silicon varies with the angle of incidence, so larger sensors will require even more heavy lifting in postprocessing to somewhat mitigate the adverse color pollution cause by oblique rays.

Besides that, as mentioned, without AA-filter the Foveon will also suffer from luminance moiré. Because R/G/B is sampled at approx. the same position, false color aliasing artifacts are less of an issue.

Also, sampling 3 color planes per sensel will also triple the uncompressed file size compared to Bayer CFA Raw data. That will require more processing power in camera (and more battery capacity), more storage space, and takes longer to record (lower number of images per second). It will also be slow in Raw conversion, and there may be little Raw converter support other than from the manufacturer themselves.

Canon have patents for quite different technology that also allows to capture R/G/B per sensel, but they are not likely to use that any time soon (complex/expensive to produce and proprietary Raw conversion needed), if ever. The Bayer CFA still has lots of potential, and it seems (if the rumors are true) that accurate color is the preferred approach for the 5Ds (s is for studio). That will be possible if more selective band-pass filters are used (hence the modest ISO claims), the opposite of the hugely overlapping Foveon color planes. Maybe a future addition of a 4th color (e.g. Yellow) in the filter array can help to get even better color, especially if sensel pitch keeps shrinking.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Chris Livsey on February 03, 2015, 07:47:55 am
One of the major obstacles is that the color separation by penetration depth in silicon, delivers an almost monochrome rendering of the scene. It requires huge color separation factors to split the data into R/G/B planes. That separation process comes with an increase of noise, and the fill factor of the sensels is already low to begin with. Another problem is that penetration depth of silicon varies with the angle of incidence, so larger sensors will require even more heavy lifting in postprocessing to somewhat mitigate the adverse color pollution cause by oblique rays.


Interesting that of course this models the coating of colour negative film:
Assume a 100 iso film. Then the emulsions have to be far faster than 100 to achieve this final speed. The absorber dyes and antihalation are going to eat up speed, and third, turbidity of couplers and overlying layers are going to eat up speed due to internal reflection and absorption of light.
Assume that the blue layer, on top, has to be 200 speed, the green layer coming second, has to be 300, and the red layer on the bottom has to be 400 to account for these losses. This means 3 different emulsions with graded sensitivity, grain size, halide content and etc. And, being on the bottom, the cyan (red) layer will be the slowest to develop due to grain size, halide ratio, and diffusion effects.
No wonder the chip makers are struggling.


Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: davidgp on February 03, 2015, 10:53:42 am
Many thanks for the clarification Erik, I was only thinking in color moiré, but right, sampling can produce moiré...

Hi,

Color moiré is a bayer issue but moiré in general is a sampling problem.

Color moiré is usually much more obvious than the monochrome version.

Best regards
Erik



Title: Re: Re: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: davidgp on February 03, 2015, 10:55:48 am
Yes you are mistaken. Foveon sensors can produce moiré as a result of aliasing if proper AA filtering is not done  It will be a 'monochrome' moiré though, much less visible since there is no colour interpolation. This makes eliminating the AA filter less risky on Foveon sensors.

Yes, as I commented to Erik, I should have thought of monochrome moire due to sampling... not only color moiré due to the bayern or somilar pattern...  my bad...
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: eronald on February 03, 2015, 12:21:00 pm
Also, sampling 3 color planes per sensel will also triple the uncompressed file size compared to Bayer CFA Raw data. That will require more processing power in camera (and more battery capacity), more storage space, and takes longer to record (lower number of images per second). It will also be slow in Raw conversion, and there may be little Raw converter support other than from the manufacturer themselves.


Bart,

 I do think you are being unintentionally humoristic here - the real world total resolution Rf of an (n*n)  Foveon sensor which measures an (rgb) triplet at each point in the array is automatically higher than the total resolution Rb of an (n*n) bayer sensor which measures only one of r,g,b at each sensel. I would judge And so yes, more storage is needed for the Raw, but some is clawed back by the added resolution. So we have Rf=K*Rb, and subjectively, I would say that we have roughly K=1.8.

An interesting consequence of this is that to achieve total resolution Rb we can use larger pixels and a Foveon sensor with a lens that resolves less by a factor of (1/sqrt(K)).

 But I think your argument should be pointed at Doug, Yair and those other people who are trying to sell us digital backs - it is inadmissible that an 80 Mp back should write large files and require longer for transcoding Raw into rgb! Something needs to be done about this!

Edmund
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Misirlou on February 03, 2015, 01:07:47 pm
Here's something I noticed about AA filters. A few months ago, I took some pics of an old adobe church with a Sigma DP2 Merrill. One of my favorite shots has a decaying window covering about 1/8th of the frame. There was a very fine mesh screen across the whole window. It recorded every single strand of wire in that screen, very crisply and distinctly, against the darkened interior of the room behind. One of the sharpest, "bitiest" images I've ever made.

Then I printed it at A3+ size on my Canon 9500 MKII. If you get your nose right up to the print, you can see interference patterns that I attribute to the very high frequency pattern of the screen image with the equally high frequency of the nozzles in the print head. Looks really strange, as if some strands in the screen are missing. It's definitely an aliasing problem, and it would not have occurred with an image of lower spatial resolution, or an AA filter. I could probably get rid of it easily if I reprinted, just by changing the print magnification a small amount either way.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 03, 2015, 05:40:23 pm
Those Sigma/foveon fanboys... can we get back to salivating about more good old Bayer pixels? ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: NancyP on February 03, 2015, 07:28:27 pm
Ahem, Bernard. FanGIRL. I find the Sigma Merrills to be good compact cameras for landscape and near-macro, given their limitations in ISO and treacle-like writing speed. I take one along for hikes, along with a small but decent tripod - 3.5 pounds / 1.6 kilos for whole shebang. My "I am seriously doing this hike for the landscape photo" kit tends to weigh ~ 11 pounds/ 5 kilos or so, more if I take my fave macro lens, itself 1.2 kilos.

I fully realize that my cameras are better than I am, and that what I REALLY need is an upgrade to my brain.  ;D
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: eronald on February 03, 2015, 11:45:38 pm
Ahem, Bernard. FanGIRL. I find the Sigma Merrills to be good compact cameras for landscape and near-macro, given their limitations in ISO and treacle-like writing speed. I take one along for hikes, along with a small but decent tripod - 3.5 pounds / 1.6 kilos for whole shebang. My "I am seriously doing this hike for the landscape photo" kit tends to weigh ~ 11 pounds/ 5 kilos or so, more if I take my fave macro lens, itself 1.2 kilos.

I fully realize that my cameras are better than I am, and that what I REALLY need is an upgrade to my brain.  ;D

Nancy,

Do tell me when you get that brain upgrade, I need one too :)
Edmund
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: LKaven on February 03, 2015, 11:52:21 pm
Ahem, Bernard. FanGIRL.

Please, FanORGANISM.  I see no need for species chauvinism.  :-)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Telecaster on February 04, 2015, 11:37:27 am
Please, FanORGANISM.  I see no need for species chauvinism.  :-)

As my friend & colleague Lisa says whenever someone does a good thing: "You da person!"

-Dave-
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Roscolo on February 04, 2015, 01:43:31 pm
Never could justify any of the medium format hi-res options. Scanning backs in my upper price range have been sold out for years. Not about to buy one of those used on ebay. Been waiting on an offering like this from Canon for YEARS, So I'm hoping the 5Ds will be my solution for hi-res images of artwork.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 04, 2015, 06:03:06 pm
Never could justify any of the medium format hi-res options. Scanning backs in my upper price range have been sold out for years. Not about to buy one of those used on ebay. Been waiting on an offering like this from Canon for YEARS, So I'm hoping the 5Ds will be my solution for hi-res images of artwork.

I tend to prefer the cleanliness of the files of my D810 at ISO64 over those of my Betterlight Super6K even at base ISO. Yes, color is a bit more pure on the BL, but the amount of noise does IMHO more than counterbalance this. Besides critical focus is much harder to achieve reliably on the 4x5 camera compared to a DSLR with live view.

Good 35mm lenses such as the Otus are also at the same level as the best LF style lenses, so I think that solutions have been available for quite some time in the 35mm world.

The new 5Ds will for sure be another interesting option.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: powerslave12r on February 04, 2015, 06:09:26 pm
http://photorumors.com/2015/02/04/canon-eos-5ds-and-ef-11-24mm-f4l-usm-prices-revealed/

$4000 5DS
$4200 5DS R
$3400 11-24mm

Unconfirmed by source.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on February 04, 2015, 07:11:43 pm
If it is a out-house sensor, wouldn't the price also be closer to the numbers we are used to..sure a bit higher as it is 50 vs 36mp, but I don't think they should pass roughly $4K price point(?)
The D810 is under $3k now. How much a difference is the extra mp going to make in price? Given the pixel quality is equal.


taking that recent price info into account, it likely is the Sony sensor!
Still my guess, but I see the dots maybe connecting.

Please have a locked option selector like the 5Dm3
Please focus like the 1D models, or at least the 5Dm3
Please have the sweeping sweet sound of the 1Ds shutters...that was equal to playing beautiful music to my ears from high end amp and speakers)...even if it is 150K count. I just miss that sound.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: dwswager on February 04, 2015, 07:30:55 pm
http://photorumors.com/2015/02/04/canon-eos-5ds-and-ef-11-24mm-f4l-usm-prices-revealed/

$4000 5DS
$4200 5DS R
$3400 11-24mm

Unconfirmed by source.

Ouch! Assuming the quality is there, I guess people will pay.  I guess if you're already able to sell a 22MP 5DmkIII with 5 year old sensor performance for $3099, then I guess a 50MP 5Ds with a good sensor for $4000 is a deal!
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 04, 2015, 07:37:37 pm
Ouch! Assuming the quality is there, I guess people will pay.  I guess if you're already able to sell a 22MP 5DmkIII with 5 year old sensor performance for $3099, then I guess a 50MP 5Ds with a good sensor for $4000 is a deal!

I don't see the rumored price providing useful hints about the sensor sourcing.

From a Canon exec standpoint, the 5DIII was already the best DSLR on the market. They never acknowledged any DR or image quality shortcoming.

From their standpoint, even if the 5Ds remains at 12+ DR stops, it still delivers enough additional value compared to the 5DIII that they should price it at least 1,000 US$ higher.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: NancyP on February 04, 2015, 09:35:59 pm
Bernard, I had no idea that Betterlight scanning backs were still around. That's an interesting technology, cousin to some of the lab-on-a-chip and glass slide scanning technology (some "digital pathology" systems such as Aperio/Leica). Most folks don't want to wait 10 minutes for a scan, I imagine - wind or water in landscape shots would be impossible. Maybe great for product shots?
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on February 04, 2015, 11:24:47 pm
re the scanback,
Even for many product shots they are not for anyone with a time clock. Its a slow process. If you plan to do any multi shots, it really will eat your time. I used it for a short time. While the files are pretty chunky amazing... at the time it was the best I'd seen, it just is hard to make it fit a productive pace, for my shoots at least.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 04, 2015, 11:52:13 pm
Bernard, I had no idea that Betterlight scanning backs were still around. That's an interesting technology, cousin to some of the lab-on-a-chip and glass slide scanning technology (some "digital pathology" systems such as Aperio/Leica). Most folks don't want to wait 10 minutes for a scan, I imagine - wind or water in landscape shots would be impossible. Maybe great for product shots?

As Phil said, those are fun to use and the files are good, but they are also a pain due to the time it takes to do a scan, the constraints in terms of minimum luminosity, the need to have a non moving environment (including the light, which causes issue with natural light when you have cloud passing in front of the sun for instance), the need to thether to a laptop,...

I don't use mine as much as I intended to frankly speaking. I have an on-going project with shooting older buildings in the area where I live for which I bought the back, but I have been using my DSLR and stitching a lot more till now. It's already hard to use indoors, outdoors is even worse.

Anyway, this is really out of topic, so feel free to contact me though PM if you have additional questions.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Roscolo on February 05, 2015, 02:03:38 am
I tend to prefer the cleanliness of the files of my D810 at ISO64 over those of my Betterlight Super6K even at base ISO. Yes, color is a bit more pure on the BL, but the amount of noise does IMHO more than counterbalance this. Besides critical focus is much harder to achieve reliably on the 4x5 camera compared to a DSLR with live view.

Good 35mm lenses such as the Otus are also at the same level as the best LF style lenses, so I think that solutions have been available for quite some time in the 35mm world.

The new 5Ds will for sure be another interesting option.

Cheers,
Bernard


All my 35mm glass is Canon. Decided waiting / hoping was better than changing. Glad I waited! :)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: torger on February 05, 2015, 02:17:31 am
€3500... like a MFD lens cap. I was expecting a higher price, I hope it's enough to make a body that feels professional. I was never fond of the 5DmkII plastics, but the 5DmkIII is good, hopefully the same.

I just got again reminded of an additional reason why AA filter is good. With my MF camera I always shoot from a tripod and use distortion-free symmetric tech cam lenses, so I never rotate and I don't need lens corrections. Once I did a mistake though (just once! ;) ) and I had to rotate the image. Jagged aliasing and rotation does not combine well - the fine narrow details looks really broken, and I assume lens corrections like distortion correction won't play as nice either. It's better to have a smooth pixelpeep if any rotation or other transforms are being applied, and as you with a DSLR do crazy things like shooting hand-held and using zooms or retrofocus wides you may need to apply corrections quite often...
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on February 05, 2015, 03:22:00 am
I just got again reminded of an additional reason why AA filter is good. With my MF camera I always shoot from a tripod and use distortion-free symmetric tech cam lenses, so I never rotate and I don't need lens corrections. Once I did a mistake though (just once! ;) ) and I had to rotate the image. Jagged aliasing and rotation does not combine well - the fine narrow details looks really broken, and I assume lens corrections like distortion correction won't play as nice either. It's better to have a smooth pixelpeep if any rotation or other transforms are being applied, and as you with a DSLR do crazy things like shooting hand-held and using zooms or retrofocus wides you may need to apply corrections quite often...

Good point. Although, the quality of the distortion correction/resampling algorithm does make a difference as well. A trick to tame low quality resamplers is to first upsample, then correct, then down sample. That effectively simulates an oversampled image. Unfortunately, if the resampling is poor, the up/down-sampling may also add artifacts, so one should test this for a particular implementation.

When the first D800/D800E resolutions were compared (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=65927.msg523733#msg523733), the effective difference I could measure was only about 1%. That's a sacrifice I'd gladly make to reduce post-processing time for salvaging a project subject to a deadline. The customer doesn't pay for my additional post-processing time ...

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: davidgp on February 05, 2015, 09:35:23 am
Canon 5Ds and 5Ds R press release... http://www.canonrumors.com/2015/02/canon-eos-5ds-eos-5ds-r-press-release/ 
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: LKaven on February 05, 2015, 09:52:21 am
Interesting...

I see in the 5DsR they went for a low pass cancellation filter instead of an low pass filter delete.

I like the specs.  I like the fact that it has a 1:1 crop with mask.  Why the hell won't Nikon do this...they already do 4:5.  Maybe when they make a 50+MP camera they will finally get around to it.

Mirror vibration control.  People will like this if it works.

Just wondering what the sensor is.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: dwswager on February 05, 2015, 10:12:40 am
I see in the 5DsR they went for a low pass cancellation filter instead of an low pass filter delete.

Yeah, this is like the D800/D800e pair.  The filter the AA filter effect back out in the 5DsR like the D800e.  I don't know what Nikon did with the D810, but it works well without the OLPF.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Paul2660 on February 05, 2015, 10:50:28 am
Yes, the D810 with no filter to me is a better solution.  I tried many times to see the differences between a good D800 and D800e image but as much as I tried, I never could.  (I did feel like shouting the King has no clothes on!) but too many others felt there was such a big difference. 

With the D810, you see in effect a similar shot as Medium format back, same tight details, but also the same issues such as Christmas Tree light aliasing on finer details that have bright light on them.  I will see it often in fine grass or straw that is lit well by the sun.  Still a great sensor.

I will also say that I feel the D810 is a bit more problematic on highlights (blown), as I never seemed to have an issue with the D800 or D800e, but I have been caught off guard on a few shoots, and now pay closer attention.  I really had hoped that the rumor on "raw histogram" was true, but it seems that this was a false positive.


Paul
Title: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP ... vs 40MP in 4/3" format!?
Post by: BJL on February 05, 2015, 10:56:47 am
In the middle of all this debate about rumored Canon 36x24mm 50MP cameras, like whether Canon's lenses have enough resolution, whether it be better to have an X3 (Foveon-style) sensor instead, etc., it is amusing that Olympus has just announced the EM5 Mk II in its 17x13mm format that offers roughly 40MP detail -- and no color moiré!  The catch being that this is in a sensor-shift multi-shot mode needing a totally stationary camera and subject, but its "8 frames over one second" approach avoids Bayer CFA color moiré, by recording all three colors at each location, from different frames. Comparison to the Nikon D810 are quite dramatic on moiré avoidance, while the D810 seems to win on resolution. [UPDATE: on samples at other sites, the EM5MkII instead wins on resolution, so probably technique and processing decisions confuse the comparisons.]

Samples show that some Olympus lenses deliver detail far better than in basic 16MP single frame mode, so good Canon lenses should be able to keep up with 50MP over a frame of four times the area.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: wmchauncey on February 05, 2015, 11:20:12 am
I currently use a 1Ds3 and will be buying the 5DS R, without AA Filter, for my studio floral
 stuff and some landscape, and...am a avid PS CC user.

 When I open an image on my monitor, am I going to notice a difference in overall IQ with
 this new body or is that image merely going to be larger in size?
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 05, 2015, 11:26:09 am
Hi,

You will not notice any improvement. If you look at "fit window" you won't see any detail. Looking at actual pixels the image will be softer, but it will show finer detail and less artefacst, pixelation effects and so on.

It may be the you see less jaggies and staircase type artefacts. With prints, large prints be better and fine detail better resolved.

This article (http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/78-aliasing-and-supersampling-why-small-pixels-are-good) demonstrates some aspects.


The best way to compare say a 21 MP image to a 50 MP image is to upsize the 21 MP image to 50 MP and compare at actual pixels, or to downsize the 50 MP image to 21 MP and compare at actual pixels. The differences will be dramatic in the first case and subtle in the other.

I don't have neither Canon 5DIII nor Canon 5Ds. The images below illustrate at bit what I mean. The images are shot at same tripod position with lenses of same focal length with two cameras having 6.8 micron and 3.8 micron pixel pitches. Left column is 6.8 micron and right is 3.8 microns. On FF 135 this would be 18.6 MP and 54 MP. Top row is enlarged to "54 MP scale" while bottom row downscaled to "18.6 MP scale". What you see is that the large pixel image "falls apart" in enlargement. But even when the small pixel image is downscaled it has better, smoother and less artificial look than the large pixel image.  The choice of subject was intended to illustrate this. Other subjects may be less sensitive.
(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Aliasing2/feather_a_large.png)(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Aliasing2/feather_na.png)
(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Aliasing2/feather_a.png)(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Aliasing2/feather_na_small.png)
Best regards
Erik

I currently use a 1Ds3 and will be buying the 5DS R, without AA Filter, for my studio floral
 stuff and some landscape, and...am a avid PS CC user.

 When I open an image on my monitor, am I going to notice a difference in overall IQ with
 this new body or is that image merely going to be larger in size?
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: torger on February 05, 2015, 11:45:01 am
In terms of color there may be an improvement on a "global scale", if the rumor is true that they have put some extra effort into CFA design to get better color separation. It will be subtle of course.

That it's "only" ISO6400 makes me doubt that this is a Sony sensor, maybe sacrificing the really high ISOs was necessary for Canon with their technology to get down the noise level at base ISO? Can't wait to get my hands on some raw files...
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on February 05, 2015, 12:24:09 pm
yes, very interesting about the Oly cam!, so for stills it maybe the better tool? But this low pass  cancelation is unclear to me. does that the AA filter can retract back?

I don't know about 1% difference, I think the subject matter makes a large difference in the way a AA image looks vs a nonAA image. I shoot lots of product and it is not 1% in my eye, its a overall dimensional quality difference. But I have not tested the D800e vs 800, or the Foveon. Some time back I tested a PhaseOne 22mp, a Kodak SLRc, a 1Ds, 5Dmk2, 1Dsm2, The Kodak SLRc was closest to the 3D and sharpness of the Phase. I used LeicaR on the SLRs. I also tested with a 180L. Nothing scientific, but I did my best to keep the variables as equal as possible.

Now the pixel size with lens is something that maybe a big factor and its not an area I have exploited to include in my findings, and perhaps a major flaw...But the Kodak SLRc with Leica was noticeably a crisper image and nice sharp with bite. The 1Ds was soft, but the image was creamy and refined looking and 5D while having more resolution did not have the bite nor that refined look. Phase did have the bite the sharpness the refined and resolution. The Leica on the either  DSLR was sharper than the 180Canon.

Sorry I know this is rather hard to pin down as having a worthy valuable assessment, but it was for me in choosing my tool for the job. The Kodak had major issues with light coming towards it. ISO 6 was interesting. But the 1Ds's became the portable cameras, and then the 5Dm2 replaced the 1Ds's as well.  My take away from that was the NonAA cameras had the bite and dimensional quality, and I summed it up as the AA flattening the image and giving them a slight fuzziness. Again, sorry, I know there are 3-4 here just steaming as they likely know the exact scientific makeup of these and saying the color bleed, the moire, the xyz...but this was in studio controlled with same subject. I shot a ring item to fill frame. At the time I used a 3000macro on the Phase. Now I still use phase but with Shneider180 lens. 

Perhaps the 40mp Oly may be a better fit for such needs?
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on February 05, 2015, 01:18:13 pm
Interesting...

I see in the 5DsR they went for a low pass cancellation filter instead of an low pass filter delete.

Modern lens designs incorporate the assumption of a certain filter stack thickness. Reducing the thickness/refractive index will create aberrations.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on February 05, 2015, 01:25:30 pm
In terms of color there may be an improvement on a "global scale", if the rumor is true that they have put some extra effort into CFA design to get better color separation. It will be subtle of course.

That it's "only" ISO6400 makes me doubt that this is a Sony sensor, maybe sacrificing the really high ISOs was necessary for Canon with their technology to get down the noise level at base ISO? Can't wait to get my hands on some raw files...

Hi,

Other cameras show little to no quality improvement when compared to pushing in post processing. Image quality can even be better from post-pushing (underexposing also offers more highlight headroom). In-Camera digital pushing is usually only helpful for the JPEG preview thumbnail.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Pantoned on February 05, 2015, 01:33:48 pm
Doesn't the text (http://www.canonwatch.com/cw5-canon-eos-5ds-eos-5ds-r-ef-11-24mm-f4l-press-release-leaked/) say "ISO 100-6400 sensitivity, further expandable to 50-12800, ensuring high quality images with low noise, accurate colours and wide dynamic range"?? so it's not 6400 max.

Whatever the max ISO is, they better have worked on the dynamic range, I'm really tired of waiting. I'm one who's gona switch to sony sensors if they don'tdeliver this time. I'm most interested in the EF 11-24mm f/4L USM than the camera itself.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Gary Ferguson on February 05, 2015, 02:11:14 pm
Something of a side issue, but you've got to feel a little bit sorry for anyone who signed an NDA and then did the right thing and kept their mouth shut.

When the official launch announcement comes it'll get a resounding "so what...we knew all that already"!
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: wmchauncey on February 05, 2015, 02:15:41 pm
I give new meaning to the term "anal retentive", to the point that I usually only use either a 180 macro or
 a 300 f/2.8 mounted on that 1Ds3, as they allow me to pixel-peep to my heart's content.
That's where I wish to see improvement!
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on February 05, 2015, 02:18:09 pm
Interesting the tests of the new Olympus E-M5 II multishot mode (8 shots at 16Mpx shifted by 1/2 pixel are combined into a 40Mpx JPEG or a 64Mpx RAW file). At imaging-resource they have compared it to the sharpness (and moiré) queens: the Nikon D810 and Sony A7R.

All three are native camera JPEG, downsampled from 40Mpx to obtain a similar output size in the case of the EM-5. Although the Olympus keeps up as good as the best of the others in sharpness (even after the image has been resampled twice, one in camera and then by the imaging-resource guys), it's the only one that manages to avoid moiré. It seems clear that although it has no AA filter, oversampling with photosites that overlap by 1/2 pixel act as an excellent AA filter. Can't wait to see the RAW files:


(http://www.guillermoluijk.com/misc/oly.png)

(http://www.guillermoluijk.com/misc/nikon.png)

(http://www.guillermoluijk.com/misc/sony.png)


Source: Olympus E-M5 II Review (http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/olympus-e-m5-ii/olympus-e-m5-iiA.HTM) at imaging-resource.

Regards
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: LKaven on February 05, 2015, 02:57:27 pm
As BC said, you have to love Olympus for keeping their historical tradition of producing quirky, beautiful things unlike anyone else. 

[Reminds me a little of Subaru ... unshakeable all-wheel drive, boxer engine, goes 150mph, runs forever...(Speed Racer says "hmmwhaa?")]
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: NancyP on February 05, 2015, 03:49:58 pm
Oh good, another fan of the EF 180mm f/3.5L macro. I always grumble about the weight and I always take it anyway.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on February 05, 2015, 04:17:52 pm
I don't see the rumored price providing useful hints about the sensor sourcing.
From a Canon exec standpoint, the 5DIII was already the best DSLR on the market. They never acknowledged any DR or image quality shortcoming.
From their standpoint, even if the 5Ds remains at 12+ DR stops, it still delivers enough additional value compared to the 5DIII that they should price it at least 1,000 US$ higher.
Cheers,
Bernard

Don't you think if it were their own in house Canon sensor it would be to "their best spec possible", and likely a 1D type sensor, and then dev it down to other grades of prosumer, etc?
And if it was, I think they would want to recoop on such RD, dev and what ever else. I'm just guessing, but it just makes more sense that since there isn't much of a cost to regain, they can price it a bit more than a DSLR 36mp camera, and still be profitable.  Soon in a year or so we will see these available for better prices than $4K. If it has some limitation, issue or competition, sooner than later :-)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on February 05, 2015, 04:24:35 pm
Oh good, another fan of the EF 180mm f/3.5L macro. I always grumble about the weight and I always take it anyway.

The 180macro is razor sharp, a wonderful lens. Maybe a reserved contrast(compared to Leica), non the less very sharp.

(Again, nothing sceientific, but observation in my setups)
Title: The 1D class is for rugged high speed usage, not high res., it seems
Post by: BJL on February 05, 2015, 04:40:43 pm
Don't you think if it were their own in house Canon sensor it would be to "their best spec possible", and likely a 1D type sensor, and then dev it down to other grades of prosumer, etc?
Canon seems to have restricted the more rugged and expensive 1D class bodies to niches that need it, like sports/PJ, and has abandoned the higher resolution 1Ds series, instead offering higher resolution in less expensive options: the only current 1D class body is the 1D X at "only" 18MP, below the pixel count of the 5DMkIII, 6D and even the 7DMkII.

In other words, a "1D type sensor" is now a moderate resolution, high frame rate, high ISO sensor, not a 50MP one.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on February 05, 2015, 05:02:04 pm
this also makes sense as the 5 now adopting the "s" . Pretty excited to see what the 50 can provide in IQ ...well, now equally exciting is the Oly.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: eronald on February 05, 2015, 05:22:15 pm
Don't worry, Sony will reprogram their stabilisers to do multishot too.
In Japan, imitation is an accepted form of flattery. They license rather than sue :)

Edmund
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 05, 2015, 11:22:33 pm
Announced officially now.

June availability... I wonder what other camera to be announced soon forced them to announce such a long time before availability? ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: LKaven on February 05, 2015, 11:32:51 pm
http://www.dpreview.com/articles/7433724324/canon-eos-5ds-and-5ds-r-announced-with-50mp-full-frame-sensors
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Josh-H on February 05, 2015, 11:36:16 pm
Announced officially now.

June availability... I wonder what other camera to be announced soon forced them to announce such a long time before availability? ;)

Cheers,
Bernard


Nothing sinister here Bernard... Canon always announce well ahead of expected delivery.

The only question I have is.. why didn't they read my memo to them... Where the #%#$%# is the mirror lock up button! ;D
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on February 05, 2015, 11:51:17 pm
I'm not sure I follow the verbiage...

Quote
The effect of the EOS 5DS R's low pass filter has been cancelled out for greater detail resolution

How does the effect of the filter get cancelled out if the filter is there?
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Rajan Parrikar on February 06, 2015, 12:12:02 am
Preorders in April.

Sample images -

http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/samples/eos5dsr/index.html

PS: Those reddish blotches on the hippo's skin - are those aliasing artifacts?
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: LKaven on February 06, 2015, 12:30:21 am
Those reddish blotches on the hippo's skin - are those aliasing artifacts?

I was wondering the same thing!  They don't look natural.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: HarperPhotos on February 06, 2015, 12:47:40 am
Hello,

Just downloaded the hippo and cityscape images and they look very impressive. Now lets see what Nikon will pull out of there hat.

Cheers

Simon
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 06, 2015, 01:14:09 am
Hi,

The area under the right ear looks odd…

Hard to say if I see aliasing artefacts. There are a few strains of hair, and those tend to show aliasing and I don't observe it here.

The citiskype image is a bit soft, it was shot at f/11 and I would assume f/11 to be aliasing safe on 4 microns.

Best regards
Erik




Preorders in April.

Sample images -

http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/samples/eos5dsr/index.html

PS: Those reddish blotches on the hippo's skin - are those aliasing artifacts?
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on February 06, 2015, 01:38:24 am
Under hippo ear....

Those maybe highlights blown, but so small they show a ring around them. Almost like hot pixs, but I see a few green ones too. But not a big deal to me, that's just a uncontrolled tiny detail I can deal with, can touch up.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: torger on February 06, 2015, 01:39:07 am
Dynamic range is said to be no better than 5Dmk3, ie not as good as a digital back from 2004. Nikon et al can relax I guess...
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 06, 2015, 01:46:28 am
http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/samples/eos5dsr/index.html

The hippo image is nice, with a great sharpness and few artifacts. The lens used is obviously excellent.

The aerial view reveals IMHO that the 16-35 f4 is a bit short resolution wise, but some of that could result from atmospheric blur though.

Cheers,
Bernard


Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: phila on February 06, 2015, 01:47:37 am
I'm not sure I follow the verbiage...

How does the effect of the filter get cancelled out if the filter is there?

Chuck Westfall (Canon USA) explains the difference: "The EOS 5DS uses a conventional low pass filter design in which a single point of image data entering the filter is first separated into two points and ultimately into four points by the time the data reaches the image sensor. By comparison, the EOS 5DS R uses a different low pass filter design in which the single point entering the filter is first separated into two points and then the two points are merged back into a single point by the time the data reaches the image sensor."
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Hans Kruse on February 06, 2015, 01:48:39 am
Nothing sinister here Bernard... Canon always announce well ahead of expected delivery.

The only question I have is.. why didn't they read my memo to them... Where the #%#$%# is the mirror lock up button! ;D

There is a mirror lockup button and it has existed for years now. It is called live view. With live view on the Canons since 40D the electronic first curtain was the default and I assume this also to be the case with the new 5D's.

Can I ask you why you would want a mirror lockup button?
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: phila on February 06, 2015, 01:49:00 am
Canon designed and built sensor...
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on February 06, 2015, 01:51:01 am
Canon designed and built sensor...

wow!

I was going to type this before you mentioned the sensor source and regardless....

It maybe that they are jpeg, but do the files lack meat to them? I think it maybe the bright sky scenes, but even with the gown in the darkness, For some reason I think compared to what I have seen, they lack a little meat, or "refinement" I want to say..? The 1Ds renders images quite different I have to guess. File is along the lines of the 5Dm2. When you start tearing into those files, they start breaking up faster than a 1ds or Phase file.
Knowing this I kept the 5Dm2 for anything but studio work, as I think it is fantastic for such work.

I know, its just my off the cuff impression, but I think it is worth sharing as a first impression. (I know I'll likely hear it :-)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 06, 2015, 01:57:35 am
Canon designed and built sensor...

Told you. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on February 06, 2015, 02:05:57 am
Interesting the tests of the new Olympus E-M5 II multishot mode (8 shots at 16Mpx shifted by 1/2 pixel are combined into a 40Mpx JPEG or a 64Mpx RAW file). At imaging-resource they have compared it to the sharpness (and moiré) queens: the Nikon D810 and Sony A7R.

All three are native camera JPEG, downsampled from 40Mpx to obtain a similar output size in the case of the EM-5. Although the Olympus keeps up as good as the best of the others in sharpness (even after the image has been resampled twice, one in camera and then by the imaging-resource guys), it's the only one that manages to avoid moiré. It seems clear that although it has no AA filter, oversampling with photosites that overlap by 1/2 pixel act as an excellent AA filter. Can't wait to see the RAW files:


Source: Olympus E-M5 II Review (http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/olympus-e-m5-ii/olympus-e-m5-iiA.HTM) at imaging-resource.

Regards



Why is there more detail highlight in the Nikon image when the Sony is the same sensor? Is that due to internal processing? It also has more HL detail than the Oly.
Likely recoverable in post or does it say something about the cams?
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on February 06, 2015, 02:08:17 am
Told you. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard


You were certainly open to that impression...More like suggesting it really :-)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 06, 2015, 02:14:21 am
You were certainly open to that impression :-)

Indeed, the information had been conveyed to me by someone connected to a very reliable source high inside Canon.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on February 06, 2015, 02:15:27 am
yes yes...I added to my comment :-)
You usually are the quite one with the inside scoop...well, at least the one with the inside scoop  ;)

I should add, that your remarks are always something substantial, just to clarify the above for some folks.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 06, 2015, 02:16:34 am
yes yes...I added to my comment :-)

Saw that. :)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: CptZar on February 06, 2015, 02:19:31 am
Canon designed and built sensor...

Is that good or bad news?
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Torbjörn Tapani on February 06, 2015, 02:24:05 am
Is that good or bad news?

It means that Canon still makes more money doing their own sensor rather than licensing it from Sony. But it also means it has a lower dynamic range than the Sonys and Nikons out there. So you get a high megapixel option from Canon but no better in challenging light. Pixel quality on par with the 7D II or so. I am unimpressed to say the least.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: bill t. on February 06, 2015, 02:25:18 am
In regards to those samples....

1. You can't be shooting through very much air and still realize 50mp worth of resolution.

2. It is possible to set up a studio shot where more is less, resolution-wise.

3. We have yet to see a truly sharp, Otus-level sample file.

Does it really not have mirror lock-up?  How electronic front curtain?  Those are make or break landscape features, IMHO.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 06, 2015, 02:26:41 am
It means that Canon still makes more money doing their own sensor rather than licensing it from Sony. But it also means it has a lower dynamic range than the Sonys and Nikons out there. So you get a high megapixel option from Canon but no better in challenging light. Pixel quality on par with the 7D II or so. I am unimpressed to say the least.

I think that it is too early to say that. Let's wait for objective 3rd party measurements.

Even if it were the case, whether it's a good decision costwise would still be a guess. There could be other reasons why they would want to stick to their own sensors such as... pride, concerns about implicit admission of lower performance of their other bodies,...

Btw, the current street price in Japan on Amazon appears to be 484,500 yen for the R version, that's 50% more than the D810 as of today. It could still go down.

Availability is 6/30, roughly in 5 months time.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Torbjörn Tapani on February 06, 2015, 02:31:07 am
Sure it's too early to tell with any confidence but I read this paragraph in the dpreview first impressions

"It's convenient to think of the new 50MP as essentially an upscaled version of the 20MP sensor inside the EOS 7D Mark II - minus the 7D II's Dual-pixel AF. The pixel pitch of 4.14 microns is certainly very similar across both sensors. Accordingly, Canon tells us that at a pixel level, noise levels should be very similar to the EOS 7D Mark II and slightly better than what we'd expect from a 5D Mark II (note: not a 5D Mark III)."

It does have MUP, with some added features like delays so you only press once. Like exposure delay on the D800/E.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: torger on February 06, 2015, 02:44:07 am
If Canon themselves say noise levels will be similar to 7D mark II we know what to expect. Forum folks won't be happy, on the other hand maybe Canon's market investigations have found that DR is not too important for the target group of users. If you shoot in studio you'll be fine... it's the landscape photographers that will be disappointed I guess.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on February 06, 2015, 02:52:18 am
But if you shoot stills for studio, that Oly with 40mp looks darn attractive for $1100 ...if you're looking to get more mpixels
Then again, so does the Sony A7R....or wait for the next Nikon...

And the band played on!
 :D
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: torger on February 06, 2015, 03:01:21 am
But if you shoot stills for studio, that Oly with 40mp looks darn attractive for $1100 ...if you're looking to get more mpixels
Then again, so does the Sony A7R....or wait for the next Nikon...

Some switch systems like the switch underwear, but I think most of us think it's quite painful, selling off all gear and then getting a new one where all the buttons and menus are different. So I think many current Canon users will be happy with this new camera, but the gear switchers will stay with their Nikon or Sony systems.

Even if DR is going to be about 7DmarkII style 11.7-12.0 stops (with some banding I presume), maybe there is some substantial improvement in color separation and skin tones (the CFA rumor) and then it may be a big hit for studio applications.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on February 06, 2015, 03:07:58 am
I used Nikon for a number of years. After going to digital, and 2 models of digi Nikons with focus and color issues, I switched...and almost 10 years now with Canon. Only 1Ds line was closely good for my still studio, but the 4x5/Phase took over in workflow and IQ. I wouldn't sell off any gear unless it replaced. But this 5Ds may be the new street portrait and landscape camera for me. So the "S" for studio is not really applicable for my use...at least not sure yet.
I will be trying this beast out as soon as I can get my hands on it. Who knows, with the added resolution, and maybe a really good file with proper lighting, this thing can do wonders./?
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: torger on February 06, 2015, 03:26:11 am
If the camera is completely free of noise pattern issues that will make a pretty big difference of how usable the available DR is, and I don't think we can get an answer to that before we see raw files.

12 stops with nicely behaving noise is what I got on my Hassy and I think it's perfectly okay to shoot landscapes with, although I use grad filters from time to time.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: CptZar on February 06, 2015, 03:32:51 am
Right it might be a little early to discuss, but that rumor has been around for some time.

Seeing that in the context of this website, which uses the word landscape in its name, the question might pop up, what the advantages of increasing MP without increasing the DR at the same time are?

Maybe we are at a point in sensor development, where increasing image size does not necessarily add some kind of usability. This is the same development computers took. In the early days the step from a 8088 to 386 was a huge leap forward. Today I still use my 2008 Mac Pro, and it runs just fine. I added a SSD, better graphics over the time, and also a new 5K iMac is a very interesting machine with it's gorgeous display. But only for that.  I will not experience a much different user experience in terms of processing power for Lightroom and Photoshop with it.

I use an Epson Stylus 4800 printer. I can print A2+ which is huge, and rather difficult to store. So usually I print A3, which is perfect for me. Actually most Landscape Pro's, which I know print on A3, because the size is nice to sell. For that I could be happy with 24MP.

However  with 36 MP I can crop extensively, and with 50 MP this will even be easier. Agreed, vey handy too. But do I, for the photography I do, need more than that, just because it is available?

I would call myself an early adapter. I like technical gadgets. A new sensor, with better DR and better color rendition would always make me want it. But just increasing image size, so I can do even more pixel peeping, without any real world benefit  doesn't make sense to me. At least for landscape photography.

Having said that, we all don't know how the new Canon sensor will really behave. But looking at that Hippo, I have my doubts.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: torger on February 06, 2015, 03:42:07 am
I'd love to have 400-600 megapixels with my tech camera, really outresolve the optical system and get a perfectly smooth image with no traces that it's "digital". High resolution also suits my "large format" shooting style.

But yes, it's a kind of special interest, and for the typical user I think having stayed at say 24 megapixels and increased the DR would have been more useful. I think that today the "DR race" is of more interest than the "MP race" to most people, and actually Canon is at last place. I often forget, but it's not only Sony, Samsung, Toshiba, Aptina all are ahead of Canon.

Canon has some excellent (and expensive) glass, I think their lens line is a bit better than Nikon's, and to sell those a high MP sensor is good to have...

Good news is that 7D mark II is virtually free from pattern noise, so if they just keep that property I think the practical DR will be quite fine. On the other hand 5Dmk3 has some pattern noise so it could be any.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Josh-H on February 06, 2015, 04:49:31 am
Not sure if this was posted - but there is a short interview with Chuck Westfall talking about the new cameras.

Interview (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSQTKM3nQ5U)

DR is said to be about the same as the 5D MK3. If that is indeed the case, I fear this camera could be a bit of a let down...More pixels without an increase in DR isn't really that useful outside of cropping power.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: torger on February 06, 2015, 04:59:58 am
Having said that, we all don't know how the new Canon sensor will really behave. But looking at that Hippo, I have my doubts.

If you mean the false colors in the specular highlights on the hippo skin that some have noted this is normal for an AA-free sensor combined with a sharp lens and sharp shot with low diffraction. False color aliasing. It could be the case that Canon's builtin demosaicer is not as good at hiding the artifacts as Nikon's is, but it's not the sensor's fault.

It's just yet another proof that being without the AA filter is not a good idea, regardless of genre.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 06, 2015, 05:19:27 am
DR is said to be about the same as the 5D MK3. If that is indeed the case, I fear this camera could be a bit of a let down...More pixels without an increase in DR isn't really that useful outside of cropping power.

Well, you also get a crisper image when you downsize though.

Colors separation could also have been improved if they changed the filtering.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: shadowblade on February 06, 2015, 07:24:06 am
Not sure if this was posted - but there is a short interview with Chuck Westfall talking about the new cameras.

Interview (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSQTKM3nQ5U)

DR is said to be about the same as the 5D MK3. If that is indeed the case, I fear this camera could be a bit of a let down...More pixels without an increase in DR isn't really that useful outside of cropping power.

They've said the same performance on the pixel level. But it has more than twice as many pixels. So that's an extra stop and a bit right there (when calculating using the usual method, which involves correcting it to a standard resolution), even assuming no other improvements.

 Pattern noise has also disappeared, which goes a long way towards making the darker stops usable.

I'd like to see what DxO makes of the sensor. If it doesn't match up, the A7rII/A9 will be more attractive to landscape photographers, for whom AF is purely optional.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: davidgp on February 06, 2015, 07:31:03 am
They've said the same performance on the pixel level. But it has more than twice as many pixels. So that's an extra stop and a bit right there (when calculating using the usual method, which involves correcting it to a standard resolution), even assuming no other improvements.

 Pattern noise has also disappeared, which goes a long way towards making the darker stops usable.

I'd like to see what DxO makes of the sensor. If it doesn't match up, the A7rII/A9 will be more attractive to landscape photographers, for whom AF is purely optional.

That will be exactly my personal case, I will wait to see the reports from third parties in DR, and I will wait to see what it is the new Sony A7rII/A9... and then decide if I migrate to Sony or not... (using an adapter during transition, not ideal, but I have no money to switch all lenses at the same time... anyway... I will save a lot of money, I don't expect the the Sony camera to cost nearly $4000 like de 5Ds R)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Paul2660 on February 06, 2015, 08:31:02 am
The best test will be to shoot the new Canon's in your own environment, hopefully lensrentals will have them in a few months.  I will for rent one to see.  

It's a bit confusing on the early reviews, as one statement says, "don't expect much more DR than th e5D MKIII", and the other says, "the sensor is an upscaled version of the 7D MKII".  

I have shot the 7D MKII, and overall I was very impressed!.  It's a totally different look and feel to the files, more alive and very nice colors.  I was able to use the new 24-70 and the 70-200 F4 both the latest versions and liked the whole experience.  

At higher iso ranges, there was noise, but there is always noise at those levels, the harsh banding, in the red and blue channels was gone.  The noise presented itself much like the 6D, just like TriX film.  Much easier to work with than shots from my 5d MKII or 1ds MKIII.  
Personally I would have like to see a tilting LCD especially with this pixel count. 

It will be interesting to see the DxO scores, but this is a still a great move forward by Canon.  

What a lot of folks forget, is that while these sensors keep advancing, so does the raw conversion software.  The latest versions of LR or C1 both give really great results to the 7d MKII files and also help me be better results from my older 5d MKII images.  

This is still a great day for Canon shooters.  The 5D MKIII body is an excellent one, the AF is better than Nikon's (in low light for sure) and you are getting a new sensor, with a sensor that can be cropped (I love this feature).  The Canon glass is great and getting better albeit most of the newer lenses are base of F4 which is problem for me.  

Don't forgot that the 1ds MKIII was $8400.00 when announced!!  

Edit:  My main point is that if the new camera is based on a upscale 7D MKII sensor, then the results should be good as that sensor is a big improvement, even over the 5D MKIII.  However if they somehow based it on the 5D MKIII sensor then I would expect the same issues in overall DR.



Paul
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: barryfitzgerald on February 06, 2015, 08:43:02 am
I suppose Canon needed a high resolution FF camera now they have 2 aka like Nikon
Personally I'm not overly interested in these, the price is high (a bit higher than expected) and the scenarios where I would need such high resolution are very limited indeed.
I understand why they have done this, but I think they will have to have better DR than any of their bodies has so far Canon are way behind on DR and it's very obvious.

I'm also waiting for someone to come along and moan "50mp isn't enough"  ::)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: CptZar on February 06, 2015, 08:54:54 am
DP Review writes:

As far as dynamic range is concerned, we're told that the new 5DS and 5DS R should give the same performance as the current EOS 5D Mark III. If true, this means that the new cameras won't be able to offer the same industry-leading dynamic range of Sony's current APS-C and full-frame sensors, but at least it isn't a step backwards. And hey - 50MP!


Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Jack Hogan on February 06, 2015, 08:57:37 am
Interesting the tests of the new Olympus E-M5 II multishot mode (8 shots at 16Mpx shifted by 1/2 pixel are combined into a 40Mpx JPEG or a 64Mpx RAW file). At imaging-resource they have compared it to the sharpness (and moiré) queens: the Nikon D810 and Sony A7R.

All three are native camera JPEG, downsampled from 40Mpx to obtain a similar output size in the case of the EM-5. Although the Olympus keeps up as good as the best of the others in sharpness (even after the image has been resampled twice, one in camera and then by the imaging-resource guys), it's the only one that manages to avoid moiré. It seems clear that although it has no AA filter, oversampling with photosites that overlap by 1/2 pixel act as an excellent AA filter. Can't wait to see the RAW files:

Why is there more detail highlight in the Nikon image when the Sony is the same sensor? Is that due to internal processing? It also has more HL detail than the Oly.
Likely recoverable in post or does it say something about the cams?

It's not clear how the E-M5II's 8 shifted captures are assembled into a picture (raw files = 102MB), so it's not easy to guess what could be a theoretical resolution for the scheme.  On the other hand, judging by DPR's Studio Scene raw files (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison?utm_campaign=internal-link&utm_source=mainmenu&utm_medium=text&ref=mainmenu), the improvement in MTF50 at 64MP is of the order of 10+% or so over 16MP - and sensitive to imperfections/vibrations in the critical capture shutter speeds.  It's early days (using good ol' DCRAW 9.22) so the following may not be representative of final results:

(http://i.imgur.com/AV6aDk5.png)

For reference the E-M5II at 16MP tops out at around 900 lp/ph, the a6000 around 1100 and the D810 around 1300 (all data collected from unprocessed DPR Studio Scene raw files).  More detail here (http://www.strollswithmydog.com/olympus-e-m5-ii-high-res-40mp-shot-mode/).

Jack
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: shadowblade on February 06, 2015, 09:24:13 am
DP Review writes:

As far as dynamic range is concerned, we're told that the new 5DS and 5DS R should give the same performance as the current EOS 5D Mark III. If true, this means that the new cameras won't be able to offer the same industry-leading dynamic range of Sony's current APS-C and full-frame sensors, but at least it isn't a step backwards. And hey - 50MP!




They've said it gives the same performance at the pixel level.

That is, 43% of the 5Ds sensor area gives the same noise/DR performance as 100% of the 5D3 sensor area.

100% of the 5Ds sensor area should do a good deal better.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: AlterEgo on February 06, 2015, 09:51:10 am
I'd like to see what DxO makes of the sensor.
there is also http://home.comcast.net/~nikond70/ - it is as good as DxO for that matter
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: dwswager on February 06, 2015, 10:20:37 am
DP Review writes:

As far as dynamic range is concerned, we're told that the new 5DS and 5DS R should give the same performance as the current EOS 5D Mark III. If true, this means that the new cameras won't be able to offer the same industry-leading dynamic range of Sony's current APS-C and full-frame sensors, but at least it isn't a step backwards. And hey - 50MP!

So what happens when the 50MP Sony arrives.  And you gotta believe there is a 50MP Nikon on the horizon.  Both of which have sensor subsystems that blow the 5Ds out of the water, especially for the intended target market.  While there is a high ISO market for a high MP camera, it is minuscule.  The bulk of the target market for these cameras is base ISO.  Basically if Sony and Nikon hit their marks, it makes the 5Ds a $2500 camera!
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: AlterEgo on February 06, 2015, 10:47:43 am
So what happens when the 50MP Sony arrives.  And you gotta believe there is a 50MP Nikon on the horizon.  Both of which have sensor subsystems that blow the 5Ds out of the water, especially for the intended target market.  

36mp sensors were not able to reduce Canon market share significantly vs 21mp (was that the max mp in Canon sensors ?).... why 'd 50mp do something drastic vs 50mp ? are you really expecting 50mp FF Sony sensor to gain something like 1 stop DR vs 36 mp FF Sony sensor in any metric (per sensel or scaled to the same resolution)  ;D ?
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Hans Kruse on February 06, 2015, 10:54:03 am
Preorders in April.

Sample images -

http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/samples/eos5dsr/index.html

PS: Those reddish blotches on the hippo's skin - are those aliasing artifacts?

As far as I can tell the hippo looks just fine as a hippo. Clearly the hippo has been involved in some fights which have left some marks. That's how it is to be a hippo :)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: shadowblade on February 06, 2015, 11:18:18 am
36mp sensors were not able to reduce Canon market share significantly vs 21mp (was that the max mp in Canon sensors ?).... why 'd 50mp do something drastic vs 50mp ?

That's total market share, the bulk of which is comprised of consumer-level bodies which have neither the 36 nor the 20/21/22MP full-frame sensors. Canon have maintained a lot of their total market share because consumer bodies make up the majority of it (although they are nowhere near as dominant as they used to be).

You need to look at it segment-by-segment. Canon gained a lot of studio, landscape and other non-moving-object photographers with the 1Ds line and the 5D2, winning them over from MF film. They then lost a lot of them when Canon failed to improve in either DR or resolution, losing them to Nikon and Sony. A large number of prominent landscape photographers who had previously listed the 5D2 among their regular gear moved to the D800e. But this represents only a small segment of total camera sales - the vast majority of sales, being consumer-level bodies, were unaffected by this, while Canon has also retained its market share in action photography.


Quote
are you really expecting 50mp FF Sony sensor to gain something like 1 stop DR vs 36 mp FF Sony sensor in any metric (per sensel or scaled to the same resolution)  ;D ?

Scaled to the same resolution, it would gain around a third of a stop if per-pixel performance were the same, all else being equal. Canon's 50MP would gain more than a stop over their current 22MP sensor, since it's more than a doubling of pixel count.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Dave (Isle of Skye) on February 06, 2015, 12:41:09 pm
For anyone who's interested..

Video link to some promo info just released on the 5DS and 5DSR. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNDJvgqBbbE)

Dave
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: jjj on February 06, 2015, 12:49:55 pm
As far as I can tell the hippo looks just fine as a hippo. Clearly the hippo has been involved in some fights which have left some marks. That's how it is to be a hippo :)
That image has a nasty digital look to it which personally I really dislike.
It'd have been much better to have the raw files to look at and tweak. Not that anything could open them.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: barryfitzgerald on February 06, 2015, 12:56:01 pm
That's total market share, the bulk of which is comprised of consumer-level bodies which have neither the 36 nor the 20/21/22MP full-frame sensors. Canon have maintained a lot of their total market share because consumer bodies make up the majority of it (although they are nowhere near as dominant as they used to be).

You need to look at it segment-by-segment. Canon gained a lot of studio, landscape and other non-moving-object photographers with the 1Ds line and the 5D2, winning them over from MF film. They then lost a lot of them when Canon failed to improve in either DR or resolution, losing them to Nikon and Sony. A large number of prominent landscape photographers who had previously listed the 5D2 among their regular gear moved to the D800e. But this represents only a small segment of total camera sales - the vast majority of sales, being consumer-level bodies, were unaffected by this, while Canon has also retained its market share in action photography.


Scaled to the same resolution, it would gain around a third of a stop if per-pixel performance were the same, all else being equal. Canon's 50MP would gain more than a stop over their current 22MP sensor, since it's more than a doubling of pixel count.

Even if it were true that would mean they would still be behind the Sony sensors for DR. Even their crop sensors destroy the 5dMkIII for DR really Canon should eat some humble pie and just use other sensors their sensor tech is so far behind it's not even funny.

People might actually buy more Canon cameras if they had better sensors just plain stubborn. I'm not sure what the problem is though all they have to do is buy a Sony sensor DSLR and take it down the the lab "hey build one of these" pretty simple right? Evidently it's baffled Canon for years

Very odd
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: jjj on February 06, 2015, 12:59:49 pm
I'm not sure what the problem is though all they have to do is buy a Sony sensor DSLR and take it down the the lab "hey build one of these" pretty simple right? Evidently it's baffled Canon for years
Reverse engineering isn't always that simple. Not to mention patents.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: eronald on February 06, 2015, 01:08:08 pm
Reverse engineering isn't always that simple. Not to mention patents.


I spent months of my young life looking at polaroid mosaics of ICs.
There are always missing pieces, but once you see the shape of the hole you can figure what the piece is going to look like.  :)

Edmund
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on February 06, 2015, 01:21:19 pm
I haven't complained about my 5Dm2 files, and I don't think I'll complain about having more than twice the resolution with this version, but I may hold off longer as the price point doesn't justify for the type of work on this camera in my needs, as I'll still be using a MF.

But for many this is superb. So the DR is not all that much better, yes they missed that, but for those on the fence between the Nikon, this 5Ds and Sony (the fence has now T'd off to 3 sections), They may stay on the fence.
But for Canon shooters this is an upgrade I've been waiting for.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: John Koerner on February 06, 2015, 01:50:31 pm
Quite frankly, I am disappointed on 2 levels:


Basically, Canon followed a "mine has more mpx" route, which is kinda lame if you ask me. They are "passing the others" in a quantitative, not a qualitative, fashion ... which gets a big yawn from me.

I think the 7D II is a fantastic deal for what it is, the best fast-action, multi-functional, wildlife crop camera available.

I think the 5Ds and 5DsR are overpriced, average cameras, with no features that are distinguishably-excellent for a landscape camera.

If they had 4K, they might be worth the price.
If they had cutting-edge sensor technology, and 50mpx, they might be worth the price.

But to have the same old sh-t for a sensor, and the same old sh-t for video, just "more" of the same old sh-t, I for one wouldn't buy either.

Jack
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Hans Kruse on February 06, 2015, 01:56:24 pm
That image has a nasty digital look to it which personally I really dislike.
It'd have been much better to have the raw files to look at and tweak. Not that anything could open them.

I do too disagree, but the lighting conditions for that shot is a lot of strong sun and this will give this look. I do agree it would be nice to have RAW files to play with but until we have a RAW converter that handles the files it does help us so much. It also has a typical JPG look as all the other files to my eyes.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Hans Kruse on February 06, 2015, 02:03:44 pm
That's total market share, the bulk of which is comprised of consumer-level bodies which have neither the 36 nor the 20/21/22MP full-frame sensors. Canon have maintained a lot of their total market share because consumer bodies make up the majority of it (although they are nowhere near as dominant as they used to be).

You need to look at it segment-by-segment. Canon gained a lot of studio, landscape and other non-moving-object photographers with the 1Ds line and the 5D2, winning them over from MF film. They then lost a lot of them when Canon failed to improve in either DR or resolution, losing them to Nikon and Sony. A large number of prominent landscape photographers who had previously listed the 5D2 among their regular gear moved to the D800e. But this represents only a small segment of total camera sales - the vast majority of sales, being consumer-level bodies, were unaffected by this, while Canon has also retained its market share in action photography.


Scaled to the same resolution, it would gain around a third of a stop if per-pixel performance were the same, all else being equal. Canon's 50MP would gain more than a stop over their current 22MP sensor, since it's more than a doubling of pixel count.

I'm not so sure that Canon lost so many as you might think. I run workshops and have so far had several hundred clients. I can say that for the returning customers which are plenty that almost none has switched system, a few has bought a Sony A7 to complement the Canon. I do explain that due the DR of the Canon they need a shooting technique where they never underexpose and that is the key to get the results with the Canon sensor. I shoot Canon and Nikon side by side and do like the Nikon DR a lot, but often I like the Canon better for the colors.

We can all have our feeling about how many have changed, but I have never seen any statistics.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on February 06, 2015, 02:14:58 pm
I think the 5D when first anounced was such a strong hit, and even the !d line, and so on with some lenses, we don't expect Canon to play along the others fields. I think of Canon as he company that is quietly working at night doing what Canon does, and while having a small ear on whats going on, always surprising us with a new product. This one as mentioned plays the mpixel number game, and we are not so surprises, but perhaps they were making too wide a gap and had to do something in all this time, but just didn't make the DR improvement.

It is their own sensor, and they must have needed to respond with something in a closer timeline.  Of course this is all just guessing. I think comapies like this are successful with having a number of cards to play and just pulling the one that applies? 

Now that they have the mpixel down...What if next year or in 2 years Canon says DR it is, wapppow!...slams down a Foveon, or that honeycomb Fuji, or maybe something along those lines enough for them to take a different road and say..."How you like them apples for DR"?!! ...One can wish a little :-)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: shadowblade on February 06, 2015, 02:17:11 pm
I'm not so sure that Canon lost so many as you might think. I run workshops and have so far had several hundred clients. I can say that for the returning customers which are plenty that almost none has switched system, a few has bought a Sony A7 to complement the Canon. I do explain that due the DR of the Canon they need a shooting technique where they never underexpose and that is the key to get the results with the Canon sensor. I shoot Canon and Nikon side by side and do like the Nikon DR a lot, but often I like the Canon better for the colors.

We can all have our feeling about how many have changed, but I have never seen any statistics.

In the landscape-focused wilderness trips that I accompany (either as a photography tutor, medical escort or independent photographer) there have been many changes in the past seven years.

Initially, it was almost exclusively Canon bodies - mostly 5D2 and 1Ds3. It was rare to see a Nikon D700 - while this was probably a much better all-round camera, it lacked the resolution of the Canon bodies and did not have the dynamic range of later Exmor sensors.

In the following years, I would see the occasional A900 or D3x, but, by and large, it remained dominated by the Canon 5D2.

All this changed in 2012 with the release of the D800/D800e and the 5D3. I continued to see lots of 5D2s, but also saw an increasing number of D800 and D800e bodies, with relatively few 5D3s

In the trips I accompanied last year, I was now seeing mostly Nikon bodies, as well as Sony bodies with Canon lenses attached, with a few old 5D2s but very few newer Canon bodies. So the tide has completely turned in Nikon/Sony's favour.

All of this, of course, is a very narrow snapshot of one specific segment of photography (landscape) but the same seems to be reflected in the equipment lists of many prominent landscape photographers - where they used to list the 5D2, many now seem to list the D800e or D810 instead.

Re: Canon vs Nikon colours - once I take them into Photoshop it makes no difference anyway. But I find that Canon generally renders too warm and Nikon too cool.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: MatthewCromer on February 06, 2015, 02:24:04 pm
Quote
I think the 7D II is a fantastic deal for what it is, the best fast-action, multi-functional, wildlife crop camera available.

I think the Sony Alpha 77 mark 2 is better.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Hans Kruse on February 06, 2015, 02:32:38 pm
In the landscape-focused wilderness trips that I accompany (either as a photography tutor, medical escort or independent photographer) there have been many changes in the past seven years.

Initially, it was almost exclusively Canon bodies - mostly 5D2 and 1Ds3. It was rare to see a Nikon D700 - while this was probably a much better all-round camera, it lacked the resolution of the Canon bodies and did not have the dynamic range of later Exmor sensors.

In the following years, I would see the occasional A900 or D3x, but, by and large, it remained dominated by the Canon 5D2.

All this changed in 2012 with the release of the D800/D800e and the 5D3. I continued to see lots of 5D2s, but also saw an increasing number of D800 and D800e bodies, with relatively few 5D3s

In the trips I accompanied last year, I was now seeing mostly Nikon bodies, as well as Sony bodies with Canon lenses attached, with a few old 5D2s but very few newer Canon bodies. So the tide has completely turned in Nikon/Sony's favour.

All of this, of course, is a very narrow snapshot of one specific segment of photography (landscape) but the same seems to be reflected in the equipment lists of many prominent landscape photographers - where they used to list the 5D2, many now seem to list the D800e or D810 instead.

Re: Canon vs Nikon colours - once I take them into Photoshop it makes no difference anyway. But I find that Canon generally renders too warm and Nikon too cool.

Just to be sure, I'm talking about landscape workshops that I run and as mentioned I have not seen that land slide. I have clients from all over the world.

The colors I'm referring to is the colors from the RAW conversion using a calibrated camera profile. I have found it often very difficult to make the same colors from the two cameras when shot in the exact same conditions. I'm absolutely certain this is caused by the differences in the Bayer filters.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: eronald on February 06, 2015, 02:51:17 pm
Just to be sure, I'm talking about landscape workshops that I run and as mentioned I have not seen that land slide. I have clients from all over the world.

The colors I'm referring to is the colors from the RAW conversion using a calibrated camera profile. I have found it often very difficult to make the same colors from the two cameras when shot in the exact same conditions. I'm absolutely certain this is caused by the differences in the Bayer filters.

Hans,

 Although this is probably not the place, I would like to compliment you about the superb the use of color in the landscape images on your site.

 There is no reason one should be able to match cameras in practice, if the CFA filters are not identical. Let me say this differently - mathematically speaking one should expect different sensors to behave differently :)

 BTW, in MF, my impression is that the H5D60 is very different, maybe better, than the H5D50 for landscape.

Edmund
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Doug Peterson on February 06, 2015, 03:02:16 pm
The colors I'm referring to is the colors from the RAW conversion using a calibrated camera profile. I have found it often very difficult to make the same colors from the two cameras when shot in the exact same conditions. I'm absolutely certain this is caused by the differences in the Bayer filters.

It's actually from a variety of sources. Bayer spectral transmission being only one of them.

For instance each sensor has different native spectral sensitivity, and an IR filter with a steeper or shallower cut, or a higher or lower cut frequency can make a large difference as well. Even the use of black frame technology can inherently alter the color response characteristics of a camera. Lenses, likewise can have an influence on both color directly, and on image rendering characteristics that influence our perception of color.

Image quality comes from a chain of success elements, a partial list includes:
Lens coating > Lens elements > Aperture blade design > internal body coating > microlens > Anti aliasing filter (if present) > IR filter > sensor photo well > sensor read-out (heat-sinking and/or active cooling very important here) > path to A/D converter > A/D converter > (read-out of black calibration file from sensor recorded as adjunct to the image) > debayering algorithm > color engine > color profile > deconvolution / detail finding algorithm, noise reduction based on black calibration file > noise reduction based on image data > sharpening.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: jjj on February 06, 2015, 03:05:18 pm
Lenses, likewise can have an influence on both color directly, and on image rendering characteristics that influence our perception of color.
Lenses can be markedly different colours, which can be a real problem when filmmaking. Not to mention t-stops that are nowhere near the stated f-stop.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: barryfitzgerald on February 06, 2015, 03:08:05 pm
I think the Sony Alpha 77 mark 2 is better.

I've not used the new Canon but I have the Sony 2 things strike me firstly the price of the Canon is frankly barmy for a crop sensor camera (you can buy 2 x Sony's for less than 1 7d II) The other is the sensor is likely superior on the Sony based on what I've seen so far

All that being said I'm not an action shooter so can't say how they hold up for other areas. EVF's are harder to use for moving subjects. However Canon really are reaming their users for every penny on the european prices of that body. They do have an established user base and the lenses to back it up, Sony have too many gaps though it might be possible with third party offerings.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Rajan Parrikar on February 06, 2015, 03:12:22 pm
See -

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1346225/18#12844136
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: dwswager on February 06, 2015, 03:23:30 pm
36mp sensors were not able to reduce Canon market share significantly vs 21mp (was that the max mp in Canon sensors ?).... why 'd 50mp do something drastic vs 50mp ? are you really expecting 50mp FF Sony sensor to gain something like 1 stop DR vs 36 mp FF Sony sensor in any metric (per sensel or scaled to the same resolution)  ;D ?

Huh, in 2012 Canon held a 17% lead in DSLR sales to Nikon.  In 2013, that was down under 7%.  Final figures for 2014 are not out yet.  Will be interesting to see.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on February 06, 2015, 03:47:38 pm
.....

Don't forgot that the 1ds MKIII was $8400.00 when announced!! ....


Paul

That was a different time when many shooters could easily charge a $5-10K a day rate in the studio for many types of commercial work. I don't think many shooters can pull that off so smoothly, But then again, I could be in the wrong world!?
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: dwswager on February 06, 2015, 04:23:25 pm
I think the 7D II is a fantastic deal for what it is, the best fast-action, multi-functional, wildlife crop camera available.

I think the 7DmkII is a great camera hobbled by it's sensor.  I think the Nikon D7100 is a great camera hobbled in shooting some sports and wildlife by it slower functional speed (6fps) and data throughput.  But the Nikon is about 1/2 the price of the 7DmkII which makes it a helluva value.  While the D7100 can shoot about 95% of what the 7DmkII can do and with better pixels, if you have to have that last 5% then the 7DmkII is really the only game in town anywhere near these price points.  But if the rumored D7200/D9300 with 8-10fps and buffer support appears, why get a 7DmkII except for the fact that you are locked into the Canon system.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Josh-H on February 06, 2015, 04:39:57 pm
This is much better interview than the Chuck Westfall one about the new 5DS and R versions HERE (http://www.fotosidan.se/cldoc/video-interview-canon-eos-5ds-and.htm).

Expanded commentary on Dynamic Range - in brief, equivalent to the 5D MK3, BUT! with a much lower noise floor and more ability to pull out details out of the shadows.

ITs going to be a long wait to get one of these cameras and see actually real results...
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: John Koerner on February 06, 2015, 04:52:29 pm
I think the 7DmkII is a great camera hobbled by it's sensor.  I think the Nikon D7100 is a great camera hobbled in shooting some sports and wildlife by it slower functional speed (6fps) and data throughput.  But the Nikon is about 1/2 the price of the D7100 which makes it a helluva value.  While the D7100 can shoot about 95% of what the 7DmkII can do and with better pixels, if you have to have that last 5% then the 7DmkII is really the only game in town anywhere near these price points.  But if the rumored D7200/D9300 with 8-10fps and buffer support appears, why get a 7DmkII except for the fact that you are locked into the Canon system.


The 7D II has so much more overall functionality, and durability, than the D7100, there's really no comparison.

The D7100 does have a better sensor though, and I do agree that is the one hobble of the 7D II as a $1700 camera.

Likewise, the D7100 is at its price point, because that is where the price point of a smaller, less-functional, less durable camera belongs (even with a decent sensor).

Jack
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on February 06, 2015, 05:10:36 pm
This is much better interview than the Chuck Westfall one about the new 5DS and R versions HERE (http://www.fotosidan.se/cldoc/video-interview-canon-eos-5ds-and.htm).

Expanded commentary on Dynamic Range - in brief, equivalent to the 5D MK3, BUT! with a much lower noise floor and more ability to pull out details out of the shadows.

ITs going to be a long wait to get one of these cameras and see actually real results...


Interesting how the lens is more so the product showing Canon making a statement, and showing superiority, and not the camera.
Thought they might have done so with a 50mp sensor to blow the competition away in every aspect for the 5DSR. He didn't say anything about the quality of it except for the points about HL and Shadows.  I was hoping to hear more of a roar about its IQ at least even on paper trumping what we have available now.  I hope they are just being quiet about it and then letting the files blow us away...but that maybe wishful thinking?
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: dwswager on February 06, 2015, 05:40:31 pm

The 7D II has so much more overall functionality, and durability, than the D7100, there's really no comparison.

The D7100 does have a better sensor though, and I do agree that is the one hobble of the 7D II as a $1700 camera.

Likewise, the D7100 is at its price point, because that is where the price point of a smaller, less-functional, less durable camera belongs (even with a decent sensor).

Jack

While the D7100 front and bottom are plastic, the top and rear are magnesium alloy.  And it is dust and water sealed to D800 levels.  It is actually a very durable camera.  And other than the 4 fps slower and smaller buffer, it is as full featured as the 7DmkII.  I wish it had CF support, but dual SD cards work.   In fact, for most photographers considering these 2 cameras, the D7100 is by far a better value.  In fact, it is probably one of the best values in the DSLR market right now.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: BernardLanguillier on February 06, 2015, 06:49:47 pm
This is much better interview than the Chuck Westfall one about the new 5DS and R versions HERE (http://www.fotosidan.se/cldoc/video-interview-canon-eos-5ds-and.htm).

Expanded commentary on Dynamic Range - in brief, equivalent to the 5D MK3, BUT! with a much lower noise floor and more ability to pull out details out of the shadows.

ITs going to be a long wait to get one of these cameras and see actually real results...

Hum... many people would probably consider than "same DR" and "much lower noise floor" are non compatible statments.

There is indeed little value discussing till DxO puts their hands on a camera and measure actual performance.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: jjj on February 06, 2015, 06:53:41 pm
Huh, in 2012 Canon held a 17% lead in DSLR sales to Nikon.  In 2013, that was down under 7%.  Final figures for 2014 are not out yet.  Will be interesting to see.
Market share is also very dependent on how many new cameras are launched. So it would be instructive to compare market share by month along with release dates of new kit.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: jjj on February 06, 2015, 06:55:21 pm
Hum... many people would probably consider than "same DR" and "much lower noise floor" are non compatible statments.

There is indeed little value discussing till DxO puts their hands on a camera and measure actual performance.
Or until people take actual photos with camera.  :P
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: dwswager on February 06, 2015, 07:13:33 pm
Hum... many people would probably consider than "same DR" and "much lower noise floor" are non compatible statments.

There is indeed little value discussing till DxO puts their hands on a camera and measure actual performance.

While generally synonymous outcomes as Higher DR and Lower Noise are, there is another possibility.  Just like the better gain strategy on the 7DmkII, there could be a better noise cancelling strategy employed post capture.  Hence, that would not increase DR, but could result in cleaner shadows.

But like you said, until there are some measurements, no one knows.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: fdisilvestro on February 06, 2015, 08:28:36 pm
DR and low noise are not necessarilly related. DR is related to maximum signal to noise ratio (SNR), meaning that you might have more DR in a system with higher noise than one with low noise.

What does not make sense is that with the same DR you wil be able to pull up the shadows better unless you give more exposure, risking blown out highlights
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: LesPalenik on February 06, 2015, 09:38:53 pm
Quote
Quote from: Rajan Parrikar on February 05, 2015, 11:12:02 PM
Preorders in April.

Sample images -

http://web.canon.jp/imaging/eosd/samples/eos5dsr/index.html

PS: Those reddish blotches on the hippo's skin - are those aliasing artifacts?

Quote from: Hans Kruse on February 06, 2015, 9:54 AM
As far as I can tell the hippo looks just fine as a hippo. Clearly the hippo has been involved in some fights which have left some marks. That's how it is to be a hippo Smiley

Don't worry about those nasty looking blotches and no need to blame them on Canon sensor! In reality, they are caused by sweating on a hot day.
When a hippo perspires, its sweat turns red because of unusual reddish pigments that are secreted with it. Molecules in this pigment absorb ultraviolet light, and the rather acidic and antibiotic secretion functions as a natural sunscreen.

If you took this camera on an Antarctica trip, I'm sure you wouldn't get any red spots on the penguins.

Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Rajan Parrikar on February 06, 2015, 10:50:41 pm
Don't worry about those nasty looking blotches and no need to blame them on Canon sensor! In reality, they are caused by sweating on a hot day.
When a hippo perspires, its sweat turns red because of unusual reddish pigments that are secreted with it. Molecules in this pigment absorb ultraviolet light, and the rather acidic and antibiotic secretion functions as a natural sunscreen.

If you took this camera on an Antarctica trip, I'm sure you wouldn't get any red spots on the penguins.


Thanks, Les!  Found the paper that describes it -

http://media.iupac.org/publications/pac/2007/pdf/7904x0507.pdf


Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: LesPalenik on February 06, 2015, 11:24:31 pm
Thank you, Rajan, for posting that link.
Highly interesting! Actually, more interesting than some other posts in this thread.

Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on February 06, 2015, 11:39:13 pm
does that include green dots as well? If you look a little further left of where some red dots are, there are a couple at least of green.  Im not worried about it, but since we are talking about it...
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: Hans Kruse on February 07, 2015, 12:38:49 am
Hans,

 Although this is probably not the place, I would like to compliment you about the superb the use of color in the landscape images on your site.

 There is no reason one should be able to match cameras in practice, if the CFA filters are not identical. Let me say this differently - mathematically speaking one should expect different sensors to behave differently :)

 BTW, in MF, my impression is that the H5D60 is very different, maybe better, than the H5D50 for landscape.

Edmund

Thanks and I agree entirely on your view on filters. The color patches on the x-rite looks the same for both cameras, at least visually :) I was shooting with a Phase One IQ160 for a year and colors from that was also entirely different. My old 5D was also different. So as you say, one should not be surprised. Sometimes, I like the Nikon better than the Canon and it was the same with the IQ160.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: LesPalenik on February 07, 2015, 01:29:48 am
does that include green dots as well? If you look a little further left of where some red dots are, there are a couple at least of green.  Im not worried about it, but since we are talking about it...

Phil, I explained about the red spots, you'll look after the green ones. Could be some African algae or very fine paint flakes that came off from a camouflaged photo vest.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: John Koerner on February 07, 2015, 06:30:20 am
While the D7100 front and bottom are plastic, the top and rear are magnesium alloy.  And it is dust and water sealed to D800 levels.  It is actually a very durable camera.  And other than the 4 fps slower and smaller buffer, it is as full featured as the 7DmkII.  I wish it had CF support, but dual SD cards work.   In fact, for most photographers considering these 2 cameras, the D7100 is by far a better value.  In fact, it is probably one of the best values in the DSLR market right now.

My God, you're predictable  ::)

How does a discussion about the innovations of the 7D II vs. the 5D Mk III s get turned into a sales pitch for the plasticky Nikon D7100?

Why don't you just say, "I want everyone on earth to buy Nikon," in every post you make? It would save you time.

I made my observations about the 7D Mk II vs the 5D Mk IIIs and am not interested in discussing Nikon. Most Nikonians agree the D7100 is a letdown and what they really wanted was a D400, not a toy.

The 7D Mk II is a revolutionary camera for its class, with 1Dx like features in a sub-$2000 camera. If it had a Sony sensor and 4K video it would be perfection.

The 5Ds is no such animal. It offers nothing really exemplary, except 50mpx, but not on as good a sensor as can be made ... and then, instead of being a good value, it's more expensive.

May have to consider a Sony with an adapter. They're the best bet for coming out with a high-end sensor + 4K video + the compatability with Canon's overall superior lens lineup in the shortest amount of time.

Jack
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: dwswager on February 07, 2015, 03:57:10 pm
My God, you're predictable  ::)

How does a discussion about the innovations of the 7D II vs. the 5D Mk III s get turned into a sales pitch for the plasticky Nikon D7100?

It might just be because for 95% of all different types of photo making opportunities, the D7100 will result in an equivalent or better image and it cost 1/2 as much.  Only when you need the processing speed, throughput and frame rate does it make sense to exchange image quality for speed of operation and higher price.

The fact that the D7100 is actually the best APS-C Nikon available and about the best they ever made, is a real knock on Nikon.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: barryfitzgerald on February 07, 2015, 06:39:49 pm
It might just be because for 95% of all different types of photo making opportunities, the D7100 will result in an equivalent or better image and it cost 1/2 as much.  Only when you need the processing speed, throughput and frame rate does it make sense to exchange image quality for speed of operation and higher price.

The fact that the D7100 is actually the best APS-C Nikon available and about the best they ever made, is a real knock on Nikon.

The problem with the D7100 is the buffer it's just too small for Raw shooters and esp action shooters. Really it needs to be about twice the size to be "acceptable" once you get into high level sports/action shooting some users want 20+ shots in raw if not a bit more, the D7100 falls far far short of that. I've an A77 and that has 16 shots raw but not enough for some users (the II model has a huge buffer) Nikon did mess up a bit here semi pro body in every way with an entry level buffer the newer model should be up to at least 15 shots in raw.

Either way the 7d II hasn't got a lot of competition. If you don't shoot action you probably won't need it but this camera is aimed at that type of user. Nikon don't have a model to directly compete with it (the D400 never arrived and some say never will)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: LKaven on February 07, 2015, 07:28:55 pm
I wonder if there won't be a D9000 one day soon now.  I can't see Nikon putting APS-c into a flagship body ever again, but I could see them coming up with an APS-c camera with a D810 type body with a loaded feature set.  Meanwhile, I'd expect a D7200 very soon.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters
Post by: dwswager on February 07, 2015, 09:12:13 pm
The problem with the D7100 is the buffer it's just too small for Raw shooters and esp action shooters. Really it needs to be about twice the size to be "acceptable" once you get into high level sports/action shooting some users want 20+ shots in raw if not a bit more, the D7100 falls far far short of that. I've an A77 and that has 16 shots raw but not enough for some users (the II model has a huge buffer) Nikon did mess up a bit here semi pro body in every way with an entry level buffer the newer model should be up to at least 15 shots in raw.

Either way the 7d II hasn't got a lot of competition. If you don't shoot action you probably won't need it but this camera is aimed at that type of user. Nikon don't have a model to directly compete with it (the D400 never arrived and some say never will)

We are in violent agreement that the D7100 does not perform because of its limited capability for frame rate thorughput.  For that small segment that shoot RAW and need 8-10 fps and longer bursts then the 7DmkII is the only alternative at any reasonable price point so you sacrifice sensor performance for functionality.  But I've shot soccer, softball, baseball, etc. with the D7100 and while limiting it is still effective.  Hell the D810 is actually faster and more efficient though due to the faster processor and larger buffer.  And I was a former D300 shooter waiting for a D400 before going to the D7100.

I wonder if there won't be a D9000 one day soon now.  I can't see Nikon putting APS-c into a flagship body ever again, but I could see them coming up with an APS-c camera with a D810 type body with a loaded feature set.  Meanwhile, I'd expect a D7200 very soon.

Agree that the D# cameras will never see APS-C again.   However, there should be a D300 replacement with 24MP, 8 fps and decent buffer in a pro style body with the button interface. I would leave the 1 number cameras for the top, the 3 numeral cameras for the pro style and the 4 number cameras (DXXXX) for the consumer cameras.