Topic: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters (Read 78452 times)

LKaven · « **Reply #100 on:** February 05, 2015, 09:52:21 am »

Interesting...

I see in the 5DsR they went for a low pass cancellation filter instead of an low pass filter delete.

I like the specs. I like the fact that it has a 1:1 crop with mask. Why the hell won't Nikon do this...they already do 4:5. Maybe when they make a 50+MP camera they will finally get around to it.

Mirror vibration control. People will like this if it works.

Just wondering what the sensor is.

dwswager · « **Reply #101 on:** February 05, 2015, 10:12:40 am »

Quote from: LKaven on February 05, 2015, 09:52:21 am

I see in the 5DsR they went for a low pass cancellation filter instead of an low pass filter delete.

Yeah, this is like the D800/D800e pair. The filter the AA filter effect back out in the 5DsR like the D800e. I don't know what Nikon did with the D810, but it works well without the OLPF.

Paul2660 · « **Reply #102 on:** February 05, 2015, 10:50:28 am »

Yes, the D810 with no filter to me is a better solution. I tried many times to see the differences between a good D800 and D800e image but as much as I tried, I never could. (I did feel like shouting the King has no clothes on!) but too many others felt there was such a big difference.

With the D810, you see in effect a similar shot as Medium format back, same tight details, but also the same issues such as Christmas Tree light aliasing on finer details that have bright light on them. I will see it often in fine grass or straw that is lit well by the sun. Still a great sensor.

I will also say that I feel the D810 is a bit more problematic on highlights (blown), as I never seemed to have an issue with the D800 or D800e, but I have been caught off guard on a few shoots, and now pay closer attention. I really had hoped that the rumor on "raw histogram" was true, but it seems that this was a false positive.

Paul

BJL · « **Reply #103 on:** February 05, 2015, 10:56:47 am »

In the middle of all this debate about rumored Canon 36x24mm 50MP cameras, like whether Canon's lenses have enough resolution, whether it be better to have an X3 (Foveon-style) sensor instead, etc., it is amusing that Olympus has just announced the EM5 Mk II in its 17x13mm format that offers roughly 40MP detail -- and no color moiré! The catch being that this is in a sensor-shift multi-shot mode needing a totally stationary camera and subject, but its "8 frames over one second" approach avoids Bayer CFA color moiré, by recording all three colors at each location, from different frames. Comparison to the Nikon D810 are quite dramatic on moiré avoidance, while the D810 seems to win on resolution. [UPDATE: on samples at other sites, the EM5MkII instead wins on resolution, so probably technique and processing decisions confuse the comparisons.]

Samples show that some Olympus lenses deliver detail far better than in basic 16MP single frame mode, so good Canon lenses should be able to keep up with 50MP over a frame of four times the area.

wmchauncey · « **Reply #104 on:** February 05, 2015, 11:20:12 am »

I currently use a 1Ds3 and will be buying the 5DS R, without AA Filter, for my studio floral
stuff and some landscape, and...am a avid PS CC user.

When I open an image on my monitor, am I going to notice a difference in overall IQ with
this new body or is that image merely going to be larger in size?

ErikKaffehr · « **Reply #105 on:** February 05, 2015, 11:26:09 am »

Hi,

You will not notice any improvement. If you look at "fit window" you won't see any detail. Looking at actual pixels the image will be softer, but it will show finer detail and less artefacst, pixelation effects and so on.

It may be the you see less jaggies and staircase type artefacts. With prints, large prints be better and fine detail better resolved.

This article demonstrates some aspects.

The best way to compare say a 21 MP image to a 50 MP image is to upsize the 21 MP image to 50 MP and compare at actual pixels, or to downsize the 50 MP image to 21 MP and compare at actual pixels. The differences will be dramatic in the first case and subtle in the other.

I don't have neither Canon 5DIII nor Canon 5Ds. The images below illustrate at bit what I mean. The images are shot at same tripod position with lenses of same focal length with two cameras having 6.8 micron and 3.8 micron pixel pitches. Left column is 6.8 micron and right is 3.8 microns. On FF 135 this would be 18.6 MP and 54 MP. Top row is enlarged to "54 MP scale" while bottom row downscaled to "18.6 MP scale". What you see is that the large pixel image "falls apart" in enlargement. But even when the small pixel image is downscaled it has better, smoother and less artificial look than the large pixel image. The choice of subject was intended to illustrate this. Other subjects may be less sensitive.

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: wmchauncey on February 05, 2015, 11:20:12 am

I currently use a 1Ds3 and will be buying the 5DS R, without AA Filter, for my studio floral
stuff and some landscape, and...am a avid PS CC user.

When I open an image on my monitor, am I going to notice a difference in overall IQ with
this new body or is that image merely going to be larger in size?

torger · « **Reply #106 on:** February 05, 2015, 11:45:01 am »

In terms of color there may be an improvement on a "global scale", if the rumor is true that they have put some extra effort into CFA design to get better color separation. It will be subtle of course.

That it's "only" ISO6400 makes me doubt that this is a Sony sensor, maybe sacrificing the really high ISOs was necessary for Canon with their technology to get down the noise level at base ISO? Can't wait to get my hands on some raw files...

Phil Indeblanc · « **Reply #107 on:** February 05, 2015, 12:24:09 pm »

yes, very interesting about the Oly cam!, so for stills it maybe the better tool? But this low pass cancelation is unclear to me. does that the AA filter can retract back?

I don't know about 1% difference, I think the subject matter makes a large difference in the way a AA image looks vs a nonAA image. I shoot lots of product and it is not 1% in my eye, its a overall dimensional quality difference. But I have not tested the D800e vs 800, or the Foveon. Some time back I tested a PhaseOne 22mp, a Kodak SLRc, a 1Ds, 5Dmk2, 1Dsm2, The Kodak SLRc was closest to the 3D and sharpness of the Phase. I used LeicaR on the SLRs. I also tested with a 180L. Nothing scientific, but I did my best to keep the variables as equal as possible.

Now the pixel size with lens is something that maybe a big factor and its not an area I have exploited to include in my findings, and perhaps a major flaw...But the Kodak SLRc with Leica was noticeably a crisper image and nice sharp with bite. The 1Ds was soft, but the image was creamy and refined looking and 5D while having more resolution did not have the bite nor that refined look. Phase did have the bite the sharpness the refined and resolution. The Leica on the either DSLR was sharper than the 180Canon.

Sorry I know this is rather hard to pin down as having a worthy valuable assessment, but it was for me in choosing my tool for the job. The Kodak had major issues with light coming towards it. ISO 6 was interesting. But the 1Ds's became the portable cameras, and then the 5Dm2 replaced the 1Ds's as well. My take away from that was the NonAA cameras had the bite and dimensional quality, and I summed it up as the AA flattening the image and giving them a slight fuzziness. Again, sorry, I know there are 3-4 here just steaming as they likely know the exact scientific makeup of these and saying the color bleed, the moire, the xyz...but this was in studio controlled with same subject. I shot a ring item to fill frame. At the time I used a 3000macro on the Phase. Now I still use phase but with Shneider180 lens.

Perhaps the 40mp Oly may be a better fit for such needs?

Bart_van_der_Wolf · « **Reply #108 on:** February 05, 2015, 01:18:13 pm »

Quote from: LKaven on February 05, 2015, 09:52:21 am

Interesting...

I see in the 5DsR they went for a low pass cancellation filter instead of an low pass filter delete.

Modern lens designs incorporate the assumption of a certain filter stack thickness. Reducing the thickness/refractive index will create aberrations.

Cheers,
Bart

Bart_van_der_Wolf · « **Reply #109 on:** February 05, 2015, 01:25:30 pm »

Quote from: torger on February 05, 2015, 11:45:01 am

In terms of color there may be an improvement on a "global scale", if the rumor is true that they have put some extra effort into CFA design to get better color separation. It will be subtle of course.

That it's "only" ISO6400 makes me doubt that this is a Sony sensor, maybe sacrificing the really high ISOs was necessary for Canon with their technology to get down the noise level at base ISO? Can't wait to get my hands on some raw files...

Hi,

Other cameras show little to no quality improvement when compared to pushing in post processing. Image quality can even be better from post-pushing (underexposing also offers more highlight headroom). In-Camera digital pushing is usually only helpful for the JPEG preview thumbnail.

Cheers,
Bart

Pantoned · « **Reply #110 on:** February 05, 2015, 01:33:48 pm »

Doesn't the text say "ISO 100-6400 sensitivity, further expandable to 50-12800, ensuring high quality images with low noise, accurate colours and wide dynamic range"?? so it's not 6400 max.

Whatever the max ISO is, they better have worked on the dynamic range, I'm really tired of waiting. I'm one who's gona switch to sony sensors if they don'tdeliver this time. I'm most interested in the EF 11-24mm f/4L USM than the camera itself.

Gary Ferguson · « **Reply #111 on:** February 05, 2015, 02:11:14 pm »

Something of a side issue, but you've got to feel a little bit sorry for anyone who signed an NDA and then did the right thing and kept their mouth shut.

When the official launch announcement comes it'll get a resounding "so what...we knew all that already"!

wmchauncey · « **Reply #112 on:** February 05, 2015, 02:15:41 pm »

I give new meaning to the term "anal retentive", to the point that I usually only use either a 180 macro or
a 300 f/2.8 mounted on that 1Ds3, as they allow me to pixel-peep to my heart's content.
That's where I wish to see improvement!

Guillermo Luijk · « **Reply #113 on:** February 05, 2015, 02:18:09 pm »

Interesting the tests of the new Olympus E-M5 II multishot mode (8 shots at 16Mpx shifted by 1/2 pixel are combined into a 40Mpx JPEG or a 64Mpx RAW file). At imaging-resource they have compared it to the sharpness (and moiré) queens: the Nikon D810 and Sony A7R.

All three are native camera JPEG, downsampled from 40Mpx to obtain a similar output size in the case of the EM-5. Although the Olympus keeps up as good as the best of the others in sharpness (even after the image has been resampled twice, one in camera and then by the imaging-resource guys), it's the only one that manages to avoid moiré. It seems clear that although it has no AA filter, oversampling with photosites that overlap by 1/2 pixel act as an excellent AA filter. Can't wait to see the RAW files:

Source: Olympus E-M5 II Review at imaging-resource.

Regards

LKaven · « **Reply #114 on:** February 05, 2015, 02:57:27 pm »

As BC said, you have to love Olympus for keeping their historical tradition of producing quirky, beautiful things unlike anyone else.

[Reminds me a little of Subaru ... unshakeable all-wheel drive, boxer engine, goes 150mph, runs forever...(Speed Racer says "hmmwhaa?")]

NancyP · « **Reply #115 on:** February 05, 2015, 03:49:58 pm »

Oh good, another fan of the EF 180mm f/3.5L macro. I always grumble about the weight and I always take it anyway.

Phil Indeblanc · « **Reply #116 on:** February 05, 2015, 04:17:52 pm »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier on February 04, 2015, 07:37:37 pm

I don't see the rumored price providing useful hints about the sensor sourcing.
From a Canon exec standpoint, the 5DIII was already the best DSLR on the market. They never acknowledged any DR or image quality shortcoming.
From their standpoint, even if the 5Ds remains at 12+ DR stops, it still delivers enough additional value compared to the 5DIII that they should price it at least 1,000 US$ higher.
Cheers,
Bernard

Don't you think if it were their own in house Canon sensor it would be to "their best spec possible", and likely a 1D type sensor, and then dev it down to other grades of prosumer, etc?
And if it was, I think they would want to recoop on such RD, dev and what ever else. I'm just guessing, but it just makes more sense that since there isn't much of a cost to regain, they can price it a bit more than a DSLR 36mp camera, and still be profitable. Soon in a year or so we will see these available for better prices than $4K. If it has some limitation, issue or competition, sooner than later :-)

Phil Indeblanc · « **Reply #117 on:** February 05, 2015, 04:24:35 pm »

Quote from: NancyP on February 05, 2015, 03:49:58 pm

Oh good, another fan of the EF 180mm f/3.5L macro. I always grumble about the weight and I always take it anyway.

The 180macro is razor sharp, a wonderful lens. Maybe a reserved contrast(compared to Leica), non the less very sharp.

(Again, nothing sceientific, but observation in my setups)

BJL · « **Reply #118 on:** February 05, 2015, 04:40:43 pm »

Quote from: Phil Indeblanc on February 05, 2015, 04:17:52 pm

Don't you think if it were their own in house Canon sensor it would be to "their best spec possible", and likely a 1D type sensor, and then dev it down to other grades of prosumer, etc?

Canon seems to have restricted the more rugged and expensive 1D class bodies to niches that need it, like sports/PJ, and has abandoned the higher resolution 1Ds series, instead offering higher resolution in less expensive options: the only current 1D class body is the 1D X at "only" 18MP, below the pixel count of the 5DMkIII, 6D and even the 7DMkII.

In other words, a "1D type sensor" is now a moderate resolution, high frame rate, high ISO sensor, not a 50MP one.

Phil Indeblanc · « **Reply #119 on:** February 05, 2015, 05:02:04 pm »

this also makes sense as the 5 now adopting the "s" . Pretty excited to see what the 50 can provide in IQ ...well, now equally exciting is the Oly.

Author Topic: Canon EOS 5Ds and 5DsR - 50.3MP with and without AA filters (Read 78452 times)