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Author Topic: Stretching printed canvas: Outsource or learn?  (Read 9085 times)

Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Stretching printed canvas: Outsource or learn?
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2015, 11:29:50 pm »

Thanks Mike, that would be great!

That Fuji is pricey for me, and I have seen all alum and rather nice kits for $150-300. Wonder what makes the Fuji so special. Regardless, I have sprayed with an HVLP before. I remember it being a case where to keeep the start and finish off the piece. Bring the head in on the canvas when the spray pattern is clean. and don't let off the trigger on the canvas. Clean after each use.
Is there a specific pressure or fineness that the Fuji does that others don't?
As long as it doesn't clog up with what I pour in..... and the trigger has a nice smooth gradation in pressure, I think I would be happy with the gun.


I have airbrushed for over a decade, about 2 decades ago :-) ....so I know the slight differences between different makes in precision. In a overall coating, I don't think I need to spend over $200 for a quality unit. I already have a compressor.

Here are some I found on Amazon....

Fuji 2203G Semi-PRO 2 - Gravity HVLP Spray System
or
http://www.amazon.com/Fuji-2250-Hobby-PRO-Spray-Filters/dp/B0091R7TES/ref=sr_1_35?ie=UTF8&qid=1421727647&sr=8-35&keywords=HVLP
or
http://www.amazon.com/DeVilbiss-802405-StartingLine-Touch-Up-Gravity/dp/B0015PKQDK/ref=sr_1_20?ie=UTF8&qid=1421727689&sr=8-20&keywords=HVLP
or
http://www.amazon.com/Neiko-1-5mm-HVLP-Air-Spray/dp/B000UVLAM6/ref=sr_1_47?ie=UTF8&qid=1421727718&sr=8-47&keywords=HVLP

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bill t.

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Re: Stretching printed canvas: Outsource or learn?
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2015, 12:35:11 am »

The cheap Fuji looks suspiciously like the gun came from Harbor Freight or Lowes.  Maybe it's great, maybe not.  I am familiar with the excellent T75 gun on the $600 system, it's very precise while having only two adjustments to think about.  If I screw the needle out 1.75 turns I can predict exactly how much paint I will lay down on each coat, and I can easily adjust the fan to my favored 8 inch oval.  It gives me exactly the finish I like, every time.  That's also why I greatly prefer the turbine to a compressor, turbines never run out of air.  The turbine I use now is several years old, and I only a year ago upgraded from a gun that was still working well after at least 1000 uses.  Was due to a lost part on the very old gun that was out of stock.

With a compressor, you need at least 8+ CFM at no less than 40 PSI for the gun to complete any size of print in a single pass.  With the typical 4 CFM nailer compressors you'll lose it after about a 24 x 36, and it will take a few minutes for the compressor to recover.

With the DeVilbiss gun you also need a relatively cheap regulator to take your 40 PSI line down to roughly 12 PSI for the gun.  I see some of the other guns on your list come with regulators.  It's a well regarded gun but like all that category of compressor driven systems there are a lot of knobs to set right.

The main skill you need to develop is to keep your distance and rate of motion exactly the same.  Newbys have a really hard time keeping the same distance, and always speed up during a pass, which I why I pace myself with a metronome clipped to my shirt.  They also develop stylistic things like flicking the gun suddenly up or down at the end of a pass.  Nice and even and nothing fancy, that's the ticket.

Don't try to modulate the coating spray!  Go pedal to metal on the handle every time.  Canvas coating is no place for gradations, just get it done.
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Stretching printed canvas: Outsource or learn?
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2015, 01:01:32 am »

Sounds like a turbine would be great, but since I have a large compressor with plenty pressure with a 5 gallon tank, it maybe easy enough to jump in with one of those and see if it will do the job for now. If I see the need I can adjust later.

thanks Bill. Great insight as usual. (as well as other posts, like Mikes...thank you. Would be great to see the vid!)
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jferrari

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Re: Stretching printed canvas: Outsource or learn?
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2015, 02:10:32 am »

Phil, HVLP stands for "High Volume, Low Pressure." That means you need a LOT of air at low pressure. Also the air coming from your compressor has moisture and oil in it - not good for finishing. Your compressor is not the best choice for this type of finishing. Get a turbine. Buy once, cry once. Anything worth doing is worth doing correctly.   - Jim
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Stretching printed canvas: Outsource or learn?
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2015, 02:28:25 am »

Good point Jim. I forgot about that !
Although I was thinking of a moisture trap. :-)

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bill t.

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Re: Stretching printed canvas: Outsource or learn?
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2015, 02:40:44 am »

My 4.6 gallon tank is worthless for HVLP.  The gun starts running down from the very first blast.  After about 6 square feet it's a squirt gun.

That's so true about buy once!  I sure have replaced a lot of cheap stuff with the real thing.  The poor man pays twice, as they say.  I'm slowly learning.
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Justan

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Re: Stretching printed canvas: Outsource or learn?
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2015, 03:11:47 pm »

Fwiw, there are also suitable air filters that will remove moisture and contaminants from the air supply. Northern Industrial and Harbor Freight (and others) have some great candidates An air supply filter for the air gun and a good respirator for the operator are recommended...

bill t.

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Re: Stretching printed canvas: Outsource or learn?
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2015, 04:52:00 pm »

Good point about the respirator, needed even for non-solvent spraying.  Cheap masks that merely filter dust are not enough, I found that out the hard way.  You need filters for organics even with water based sprays.

A ways back Justan recommended a respirator with eye protection, which I think is very important as well.  Unfortunately all the ones I looked at would not allow a good seal when wearing glasses.  My one attempt at gluing reading glasses to the mask cover was less than successful.  So now I coat semi-blind without my glasses, relying mostly on big black number along the top and bottom of my panels to advance the gun the correct distance.

Can anybody recommend an eye-protecting, eyeglass-friendly respirator with organic filters?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 05:17:49 pm by bill t. »
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Justan

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Re: Stretching printed canvas: Outsource or learn?
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2015, 05:21:41 pm »

IIRC mine is a 3M brand and it gets along fine with my glasses. I got it new from ebay for about half the list price. It also came with several clear replaceable lens covers which comes in very handy. I’ll find the model number if it’s on the respirator and get it to you. You can also google “ full face respirator that can be worn with glasses ” but without the quotation marks and find several good candidates.

I refinished pianos when I was much younger and found the first day that there are some major and unnecessary risks to exposing lungs and eyes to any kind of vapor/fumes, and this risk exists when there is an osha approved high air volume exhaust spraying room used. Most home environments don't even come close. Many don’t think about this kind of thing unless there are immediate vision/lung issues....................................................... cough

Mark Lindquist

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Re: Stretching printed canvas: Outsource or learn?
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2015, 06:05:02 pm »

I use a breatheasy powered air system and Tychem Air-Mate White Headcovers:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ludSj2aKL.jpg

You can find the head covers here:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NTOLZ8K/?tag=MWTSAL-20

The main unit is an earlier model of this:

http://www.amazon.com/3M-Versaflo-Easy-Clean-TR-300-ECK/dp/B007PB4BFW/ref=pd_sim_sbs_indust_4?ie=UTF8&refRID=0MEK77QR71E40WSENWMX

Mine is actually an older Racal unit.  They can be found on eBay.  

I like the Tychem Airmate hoods because they are very lightweight, and positive air pressure is moving in front of your face so glasses don't get fogged up.
They're expensive but if handled gently can last a long time.  There are removable and replaceable face shield plastic protectors as well.

The main thing is you can find a PAP (Filtered Positive Air Pressure) unit and customize it for your use.

Believe me, the one thing I have learned after 45 years of finishing in woodworking, is NOT to skimp on respirator equipment.

DO NOT USE A COMPRESSOR TO SUPPLY AIR TO YOUR MASK EVER UNLESS IT IS PROFESSIONALLY FILTERED - (see post below).  OIL will KILL you.

This is tricky stuff.  You can get a 3M full face mask with VOC filters (Volatile Organic Compounds) and that will work fine for most people.

If you wear glasses, sweat and are uncomfortable with masks - try the Tychem Headcovers - you'll never go back.

EDIT:  Other Head Covers available at Graingers:

http://www.grainger.com/product/3M-Head-Cover-WP107772/_/N-jmo/Ntt-Triton+Air+Respirator?adgrpID=17007253118&gclid=CODK3Kffo8MCFYc7gQodi50Ahg&kwdID=113982396038&sst=All&ts_optout=true&s_pp=false&picUrl=//static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/6PPG9_AS01?$smthumb$

A less expensive PAPR (Powered Air Purifying Respirators) here:

http://www.grainger.com/product/4DA48?cm_sp=HIO-_-HIDP-_-RR_VTV_P&cm_vc=IDPRRZ11&zoneId=IDPRRZ11

Check them out here:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.XPAPR&_nkw=PAPR&_sacat=0

Many different kinds to be seen.


« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 08:11:40 pm by Mark Lindquist »
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bill t.

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Re: Stretching printed canvas: Outsource or learn?
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2015, 07:37:34 pm »

Thanks Mark for that detailed reply.  I thought those things only existed in Michael Crichton movies.

Kinda pricey, but less that the cost of replacement eyes and lungs.  I think I'm going to go for it.  The idea of having nothing hanging off my face is very attractive.  Even after several years of use I feel very awkward and constrained using those 3M facehugger masks.  But I'll have to be careful not to alarm the neighbors or attract attention from the DEA.
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Mark Lindquist

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Re: Stretching printed canvas: Outsource or learn?
« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2015, 07:55:00 pm »

Thanks Mark for that detailed reply.  I thought those things only existed in Michael Crichton movies.

Kinda pricey, but less that the cost of replacement eyes and lungs.  I think I'm going to go for it.  The idea of having nothing hanging off my face is very attractive.  Even after several years of use I feel very awkward and constrained using those 3M facehugger masks.  But I'll have to be careful not to alarm the neighbors or attract attention from the DEA.

As you said, Bill, the poor man buys twice.  If you do a lot of this, I recommend going for a really great unit that uses Ni-Cad batteries.

Don't know how much you do, and or if you work in a woodshop to make frames, or what, but I've used Positive air pressure for many years as a sculptor and woodworker, and have used the lightweight headgear for applying finishes.  Wouldn't be without it.

Here's a photo of me using a Racal unit in my studio in the late 80's:


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Mark Lindquist
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Mark Lindquist

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Re: Stretching printed canvas: Outsource or learn?
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2015, 08:09:51 pm »

Thanks Mark for that detailed reply.  I thought those things only existed in Michael Crichton movies.

Kinda pricey, but less that the cost of replacement eyes and lungs.  I think I'm going to go for it.  The idea of having nothing hanging off my face is very attractive.  Even after several years of use I feel very awkward and constrained using those 3M facehugger masks.  But I'll have to be careful not to alarm the neighbors or attract attention from the DEA.

You might look at this:

http://www.tecnosupplies.com/html/wilson_clearflow.html


Racal is also good for professional systems:

http://www.tecnosupplies.com/html/constant.html

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bill t.

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Re: Stretching printed canvas: Outsource or learn?
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2015, 08:15:59 pm »

Wow Mark, that's some seriously hard core wood butchering!  What were you making?

I coat 4 x 8 sheets of media around 300 times a year, and sometimes 2 or 3 sheets.  So I'm in and out of the mask a lot for about 5 to 10 minutes periods.  Oh, and I also cut about 700 frames a year, some of it polystyrene which has the nastiest sawdust on the planet.  Right I now I just wear a 3M 8511 paper mask for that, it's pretty marginal.  That may be reason enough all by itself for something better.

It sorta looks like I could put one of those fancy masks on and off pretty fast.  Is that right?  Which mask is best in that regard?
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Mark Lindquist

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Re: Stretching printed canvas: Outsource or learn?
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2015, 10:09:54 pm »

Wow Mark, that's some seriously hard core wood butchering!  What were you making?

I coat 4 x 8 sheets of media around 300 times a year, and sometimes 2 or 3 sheets.  So I'm in and out of the mask a lot for about 5 to 10 minutes periods.  Oh, and I also cut about 700 frames a year, some of it polystyrene which has the nastiest sawdust on the planet.  Right I now I just wear a 3M 8511 paper mask for that, it's pretty marginal.  That may be reason enough all by itself for something better.

It sorta looks like I could put one of those fancy masks on and off pretty fast.  Is that right?  Which mask is best in that regard?

I was making THIS

Actually, you do a lot of work in short spurts, so the lightweight head cover would work well for finish spraying, and the adjustable mask would do well for nasty dust.  All in all I'd probably recommend this:

http://www.grainger.com/product/4DA48?cm_sp=HIO-_-HIDP-_-RR_VTV_P&cm_vc=IDPRRZ11&zoneId=IDPRRZ11

But if you really want to do it right, this system might do you best, from the standpoint of versatility, longest lasting and ease of use:

http://www.tecnosupplies.com/html/constant.html

It boils down to a unit you wear on a belt and a comfortable head covering, or a special head gear that plugs into a filtered air system.  I like the filtered air system because you can adjust the flow, and it works in tandem with the spray sysytem - you plug in in one area and replug in another.

It may just boil down to money, ultimately.  The PAPR system might work well for you, but those head covers are expensive and they don't last forever.  

That's my quick take on it Bill.  You might want to do your homework on this, however.

-Mark
« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 10:12:54 pm by Mark Lindquist »
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jferrari

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Re: Stretching printed canvas: Outsource or learn?
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2015, 10:21:51 pm »

I was making THIS

Don't feel bad about your log Mark, it's nothing a little wood filler and some heavy sanding won't fix!

(I'm just messing with ya, nice job really!)    - Jim
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Mark Lindquist

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Re: Stretching printed canvas: Outsource or learn?
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2015, 10:45:59 pm »

Heh heh, Jim, heard it all before, LOL. 

This one was recently purchased by Yale University Art Gallery

They bought it from the collector who purchased it from my gallery back in the mid-80's. 
I heard the asking price was $100,000.00 but I don't know what the final purchase price was.

So much for wood filler and heavy sanding, eh?  LOL
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Mark Lindquist
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bill t.

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Re: Stretching printed canvas: Outsource or learn?
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2015, 11:48:06 pm »

$100,000?  Artists usually have to be dead to command that kind of price!  Congratulations!

Edit: I just paged down through that URL.  Terrific work, and lots of it.  I never suspected.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 11:52:41 pm by bill t. »
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Mark Lindquist

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Re: Stretching printed canvas: Outsource or learn?
« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2015, 12:27:29 am »

Glad you liked it Bill.

-Mark
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huguito

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Re: Stretching printed canvas: Outsource or learn?
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2015, 01:49:56 pm »

Hi Mark
Your work is stunning, absolutely beautiful

Hugo
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