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Author Topic: Raw histogram to become available for recent Nikon FF DSLRs?  (Read 10327 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Raw histogram to become available for recent Nikon FF DSLRs?
« on: January 08, 2015, 09:39:29 pm »

This is still just a rumor at this stage, but it seems to be a pretty credible one.

The key one is of course RAW histogram.

http://nikonrumors.com/2015/01/08/nikon-to-announce-a-new-firmware-download-program-on-january-19th-including-several-improvements-for-the-d750-d810-d800-d800e-d610-and-d600-cameras.aspx/

This would probably be one of the most significant firmware upgrades ever if true.

Cheers,
Bernard

Rory

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Re: Raw histogram to become available for recent Nikon FF DSLRs?
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2015, 09:52:32 pm »

It's still a rumour if you don't believe Nikon press releases...
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shadowblade

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Re: Raw histogram to become available for recent Nikon FF DSLRs?
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2015, 10:59:36 pm »

This is fantastic - it allows you to take advantage of the full dynamic range of the sensor, instead of just the small part of it visible in the JPEG preview.

If only you could upload a conversion profile using a custom curve, that generates a preview JPEG using the sensor's entire dynamic range (i.e. 'white' in JPEG = blown-out RAW, 'black' in JPEG = noise floor). The preview wouldn't generally be aesthetically pleasing, but would give very useful technical information about the quality of the shot.
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armand

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Re: Raw histogram to become available for recent Nikon FF DSLRs?
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2015, 11:40:17 pm »

EFCS for the D750?😱  

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Raw histogram to become available for recent Nikon FF DSLRs?
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2015, 12:09:47 am »

It's still a rumour if you don't believe Nikon press releases...

Except that the rumored press release is dated Jan, 19,... :)

Cheers,
Bernard

erstwhile

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Re: Raw histogram to become available for recent Nikon FF DSLRs?
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2015, 01:40:55 am »


What concerns me about this announcement (firmware updates are free for up to three years) is that it looks suspiciously like the lure of the crack-cocaine business model. If one were paranoid, one could easily imagine these free updates as containing a time-sensitive component: after three years, the firmware (not just the update features, but ALL of the camera firmware) no longer functions unless the user obtains another firmware update. Except now the firmware updates are only good for a month, and cost money. In other words the user is now the "owner" of a subscription-based camera, which doesn't work at all unless a monthly fee is paid.

I'm sure all the camera companies have already considered this approach, and would dearly love to ram it down users' throats. After all, it's the perfect way for making profit when camera unit sales are slowing. It's like charging for film but better: the user doesn't only pay for what they use, they pay continuously regardless of whether they use it or not. A single company probably would fail at it, since users are likely to just jump ship. But if all the companies got in on it (a la Phoebus Cartel), then potentially the days of camera ownership would be over. After all, what's the point of renting a camera (which is what subscription-based "ownership" is) ALL the time, when you can just rent it from a shop for gigs when you need it?

The more worrying thing is there's no real alternative if camera hardware itself goes subscription-based. In software there's enough competition (including mature and usable freeware) that alternatives to subscription-based products will likely always be available. Not to mention SW development is much more feasible for individuals/small teams than hardware fab. But if the camera companies all decide to go subscription-based, users are kind of out of luck.


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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Raw histogram to become available for recent Nikon FF DSLRs?
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2015, 01:51:01 am »

What concerns me about this announcement (firmware updates are free for up to three years) is that it looks suspiciously like the lure of the crack-cocaine business model. If one were paranoid, one could easily imagine these free updates as containing a time-sensitive component: after three years, the firmware (not just the update features, but ALL of the camera firmware) no longer functions unless the user obtains another firmware update. Except now the firmware updates are only good for a month, and cost money. In other words the user is now the "owner" of a subscription-based camera, which doesn't work at all unless a monthly fee is paid.

I'm sure all the camera companies have already considered this approach, and would dearly love to ram it down users' throats. After all, it's the perfect way for making profit when camera unit sales are slowing. It's like charging for film but better: the user doesn't only pay for what they use, they pay continuously regardless of whether they use it or not. A single company probably would fail at it, since users are likely to just jump ship. But if all the companies got in on it (a la Phoebus Cartel), then potentially the days of camera ownership would be over. After all, what's the point of renting a camera (which is what subscription-based "ownership" is) ALL the time, when you can just rent it from a shop for gigs when you need it?

The more worrying thing is there's no real alternative if camera hardware itself goes subscription-based. In software there's enough competition (including mature and usable freeware) that alternatives to subscription-based products will likely always be available. Not to mention SW development is much more feasible for individuals/small teams than hardware fab. But if the camera companies all decide to go subscription-based, users are kind of out of luck.

I understand the concern, but I think that you are totally over-estimating the ability of camera manufacturers such as Nikon to design evil plans.

Cheers,
Bernard

Manoli

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Re: Raw histogram to become available for recent Nikon FF DSLRs?
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2015, 02:01:39 am »

What concerns me about this announcement ...

I had to check the date on my computer just to make sure it wasn't April 1st.
And, incidentally, how would your hypothesis work out when it comes to smartphone photography ?

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Stephen Starkman

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Re: Raw histogram to become available for recent Nikon FF DSLRs?
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2015, 02:34:22 am »

Excited to see the RAW histogram feature - let's hope it's implemented (and documented) properly and that the rumour is true. Withholding comment on the I Am Advancing firmware upgrade program till we know more. Very promising!
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torger

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Re: Raw histogram to become available for recent Nikon FF DSLRs?
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2015, 03:44:03 am »

This is pretty big news for landscape photographers if it's true. This feature has been desired for like 10 years at least. Ironically the D800 series of cameras is the ones that needs it the least thanks to their larger dynamic range compared to much of the competition.

Large DR or not, it's still nothing wrong with being able to expose optimally.

To be really good the histogram should not only be raw, it should have clear markers for 1/3 stops to for the upper two stops, so when you underexpose a little you see exactly how much you need to increase exposure to make it optimal. I suspect though that there will be some gamma scale as usual rather than a stop scale, but if it's raw, it's still big news.

I think one reason why this feature has not come earlier is because it makes the image workflow "illogical" and "not user-friendly", an optimally exposed image can look like crap when converted with the standard film curve. A low contrast scene will look way overexposed for example, while a high contrast scene can look underexposed. The software workflow has instead all the time been arranged like "slide film", ie if the image preview looks good it's good, and I think it's been a barrier to break to come past that thinking. With optimal exposure you'll often need manual adjustments in a raw converter afterwards.

However for any landscape photographer that works with raw files, ie 99%, the current "user friendly" way to show exposure is what's illogical and hard to use. Hopefully they've finally understood this and this becomes real. If it's real, it shall be interesting to see if anyone will follow. Canon with their more limited DR is the brand that needs this feature the most. I'd love to have it on my Hasselblad and Leaf backs too.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 03:52:50 am by torger »
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davidgp

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Re: Raw histogram to become available for recent Nikon FF DSLRs?
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2015, 05:13:04 am »

What concerns me about this announcement (firmware updates are free for up to three years) is that it looks suspiciously like the lure of the crack-cocaine business model. If one were paranoid, one could easily imagine these free updates as containing a time-sensitive component: after three years, the firmware (not just the update features, but ALL of the camera firmware) no longer functions unless the user obtains another firmware update. Except now the firmware updates are only good for a month, and cost money. In other words the user is now the "owner" of a subscription-based camera, which doesn't work at all unless a monthly fee is paid.

I'm sure all the camera companies have already considered this approach, and would dearly love to ram it down users' throats. After all, it's the perfect way for making profit when camera unit sales are slowing. It's like charging for film but better: the user doesn't only pay for what they use, they pay continuously regardless of whether they use it or not. A single company probably would fail at it, since users are likely to just jump ship. But if all the companies got in on it (a la Phoebus Cartel), then potentially the days of camera ownership would be over. After all, what's the point of renting a camera (which is what subscription-based "ownership" is) ALL the time, when you can just rent it from a shop for gigs when you need it?

The more worrying thing is there's no real alternative if camera hardware itself goes subscription-based. In software there's enough competition (including mature and usable freeware) that alternatives to subscription-based products will likely always be available. Not to mention SW development is much more feasible for individuals/small teams than hardware fab. But if the camera companies all decide to go subscription-based, users are kind of out of luck.

For me it is more a reaction to the way Fuji is doing business (I don't own any Fuji camera...). Fuji has been updating the firmware of their cameras for several years without any cost for the users. With that move they got a very loyal fan base that trust Fuji will keep updating their cameras for some years (if possible, not always it is possible to overcome hardware limitations with software... ) (and yes, no RGB histogram is something that I don't understand...).

Nikon is trying to do the same here (if true), and they make it official, in writing, they are saying, if you buy a Nikon camera, we will support you for at least three years with all the innovative software things that we could think of, like RAW histogram. It is an strong selling point.

RAW histogram it is the move from Nikon to make sure everyone notices it.

Anyway, about selling software for their cameras, I don't think it is far the time when camera makers start adding app stores for their cameras like the smartphones, after all, a digital camera it is basically a sensor + computer (oversimplying things...).

dwswager

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Re: Raw histogram to become available for recent Nikon FF DSLRs?
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2015, 01:31:52 pm »

If true, this is awesome.  And this is precisely the kind of thing a manufacturer should be looking at to win market share.  Give users features they have been asking them for.  This goes way beyond usability to good will.  Even people that don't shoot using the RAW histogram will feel that good will. 

I was hoping a few years ago that Nikon would be feeling enough pressure to support DNG as an alternative format in their cameras.  How many of us would be swayed by a maker supporting a somewhat open, if not public, format even if you might not use it.

BTW, this type of thing is great news for all users of all brands because it will start forcing other to compete on functionality.  How long could Canon afford to wait before implementing RAW histograms in their cameras?

This is still just a rumor at this stage, but it seems to be a pretty credible one.

The key one is of course RAW histogram.

http://nikonrumors.com/2015/01/08/nikon-to-announce-a-new-firmware-download-program-on-january-19th-including-several-improvements-for-the-d750-d810-d800-d800e-d610-and-d600-cameras.aspx/

This would probably be one of the most significant firmware upgrades ever if true.

Cheers,
Bernard

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davidgp

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Re: Raw histogram to become available for recent Nikon FF DSLRs?
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2015, 02:15:36 pm »

BTW, this type of thing is great news for all users of all brands because it will start forcing other to compete on functionality.  How long could Canon afford to wait before implementing RAW histograms in their cameras?

If you don't mind the risk you can install Magic lantern in your Canon camera and gives you RAW Histogram

dwswager

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Re: Raw histogram to become available for recent Nikon FF DSLRs?
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2015, 02:26:53 pm »

If you don't mind the risk you can install Magic lantern in your Canon camera and gives you RAW Histogram

I'me a D810 shooter (and D7100).  No help here.  And I have several friends I've tried to get to try the Magic Lantern firmware, but none have bit.  Besides, while I don't generally have a problem with rooting and hacking, there is a big difference between OEM supported functionality and hacks.
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Colorado David

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Re: Raw histogram to become available for recent Nikon FF DSLRs?
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2015, 02:40:03 pm »

I had never heard the term "brick" before in reference to a piece of equipment until reading some article about third party-ware on Canon cameras.  The article said one of the risks was that you could brick your camera, meaning simply turn it into a brick.  It would no longer function and there was nothing you could ever do to restore it.  I'm sorry I can't reference the article and can't testify to the veracity, but that would have been enough to keep me from using third party-ware.  I have to depend on my equipment and can't afford to "brick" it.

Paul2660

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Re: Raw histogram to become available for recent Nikon FF DSLRs?
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2015, 02:50:42 pm »

I'me a D810 shooter (and D7100).  No help here.  And I have several friends I've tried to get to try the Magic Lantern firmware, but none have bit.  Besides, while I don't generally have a problem with rooting and hacking, there is a big difference between OEM supported functionality and hacks.

The 6D basically becomes a totally different camera with Magic Lantern.  IMO it's the best thing in a while that happened for Canon shooters.  I loaded it with no problem on my 6D, and loved it.  To me main benefits:

True working intervalometer from the camera.  No other camera has this with full function, i.e. you can take the exposure past 30" as all other solutions rely on the camera's timer, which IMO is quite stupid.  This includes Fuji, Nikon, Canon and Sony.  It's obvious they never spoke to anyone working at night.

Raw video, really interesting and much much much better than the standard video from the 6D.  There is a ton already written about this issue.

Dual iso, once you get the hang of this it's excellent and got much better with the last iteration from Magic L

Focus peaking, a it hard to get used to, but it works

There are so many other features that it really makes the 6D a totally new camera.  Sad to see just how much Canon could have done, but chose not to.  And it's not just Canon here, it's all of them.  They are so worried about the effect on upsell. 

Classic example is the Cini 1dx and 1dx, 4x on the Cini version, but not available on the 1dx.  Sad. 

Paul
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deejjjaaaa

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Re: Raw histogram to become available for recent Nikon FF DSLRs?
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2015, 03:48:53 pm »

I have to depend on my equipment and can't afford to "brick" it.

are you not afraid to just drop your camera and brick it that way ? shit happens - not the reason to be that afraid ...
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jwstl

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Re: Raw histogram to become available for recent Nikon FF DSLRs?
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2015, 04:15:20 pm »

What concerns me about this announcement (firmware updates are free for up to three years) is that it looks suspiciously like the lure of the crack-cocaine business model. If one were paranoid, one could easily imagine these free updates as containing a time-sensitive component: after three years, the firmware (not just the update features, but ALL of the camera firmware) no longer functions unless the user obtains another firmware update. Except now the firmware updates are only good for a month, and cost money. In other words the user is now the "owner" of a subscription-based camera, which doesn't work at all unless a monthly fee is paid.

I'm sure all the camera companies have already considered this approach, and would dearly love to ram it down users' throats. After all, it's the perfect way for making profit when camera unit sales are slowing. It's like charging for film but better: the user doesn't only pay for what they use, they pay continuously regardless of whether they use it or not. A single company probably would fail at it, since users are likely to just jump ship. But if all the companies got in on it (a la Phoebus Cartel), then potentially the days of camera ownership would be over. After all, what's the point of renting a camera (which is what subscription-based "ownership" is) ALL the time, when you can just rent it from a shop for gigs when you need it?

The more worrying thing is there's no real alternative if camera hardware itself goes subscription-based. In software there's enough competition (including mature and usable freeware) that alternatives to subscription-based products will likely always be available. Not to mention SW development is much more feasible for individuals/small teams than hardware fab. But if the camera companies all decide to go subscription-based, users are kind of out of luck.




I seriously doubt that's the intent. My guess is the 3 years of support covers the average life span of a pro digital camera these days. Why continue firmware updates for the D810 3 years from now when Nikon has released, and wants you to upgrade to, the D910 etc. After 3 years, the focus will be on creating firmware updates to current, not legacy, models. If you in 3 years you want to continue to use your D810 with the last firmware you can. But don't expect additional feature firmware upgrades.
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dwswager

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Re: Raw histogram to become available for recent Nikon FF DSLRs?
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2015, 04:41:42 pm »

I had never heard the term "brick" before in reference to a piece of equipment until reading some article about third party-ware on Canon cameras.  The article said one of the risks was that you could brick your camera, meaning simply turn it into a brick.  It would no longer function and there was nothing you could ever do to restore it.  I'm sorry I can't reference the article and can't testify to the veracity, but that would have been enough to keep me from using third party-ware.  I have to depend on my equipment and can't afford to "brick" it.

Bricking really started with cell phones.  Basically getting root access to the device.  Do it wrong and it's a paperwieght.  Kind like making 'coaster' in the early days of burning CDs.  BTW, my Samsung Note II has been rooted since I got it.  Let me unload all the bloatware that consumers memory and power and do things you just can't do otherwise. 
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dwswager

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Re: Raw histogram to become available for recent Nikon FF DSLRs?
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2015, 04:44:25 pm »

I seriously doubt that's the intent. My guess is the 3 years of support covers the average life span of a pro digital camera these days. Why continue firmware updates for the D810 3 years from now when Nikon has released, and wants you to upgrade to, the D910 etc. After 3 years, the focus will be on creating firmware updates to current, not legacy, models. If you in 3 years you want to continue to use your D810 with the last firmware you can. But don't expect additional feature firmware upgrades.

That's my take as well.  I'm wondering how they calculate 3 years.  From date of camera introduction, date of consumer purchase or some other manner.  I think that 5-10 years ago, most cameras had a 3 year life.  But I think cameras like the D810 probably have a much longer usable life.
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