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Author Topic: Z3200 on Everyday Satin noGloss. B&W prints too dark?  (Read 4830 times)

Phil Indeblanc

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Z3200 on Everyday Satin noGloss. B&W prints too dark?
« on: December 19, 2014, 06:33:11 am »

Wondering if anyone using this paper noticed the dark areas in a print going too dark/black?
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Z3200 on Everyday Satin noGloss. B&W prints too dark?
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2014, 07:58:06 am »

Calibrate and make a custom profile for that paper with the Z3200. The HP profile may not be ideal for your printer.
If that was done already then it is usually the light level difference between monitor and viewing light that you observe.
The ink load can be varied in the media preset too and after that you have to start at line 1 again. It is more a gamma shift than a true ink limits change so may not help much in the shadows.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Z3200 on Everyday Satin noGloss. B&W prints too dark?
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2014, 10:48:56 am »

Yes, I was using the HP Proflie which I did to a calibration on. But your saying use it as a Custom "unknown" paper?

I should try that. Thank you.

I have my monitor calibrated, although it may need a fresher recal...Also, I am familiar with Dmax 50 for Prepress.... I'll have to refresh myself and read up and do it for this environment.
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Z3200 on Everyday Satin noGloss. B&W prints too dark?
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2014, 11:37:15 am »

I ran a Diag check, and the MK is pretty plugged up 75-90%! Maybe the PK is taking over that duty with remapping and coming out dark? Maybe that doesn't make much sense, BUT I better clean this head. I tried a head cleaning on that dual set, and ran another diag, and still no improvement.

Any ideas before I start doing anything drastic?
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Z3200 on Everyday Satin noGloss. B&W prints too dark?
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2014, 12:58:15 pm »

I went ahead and took out the head and wiped it on a cloth dipped in distilled water/IPA91/amonia mix and it looks like most of the nozzles are clear. About 3-4 dropped lines in the Diagnostic print.

Before I run off a 4TH 24x36" print of a lot of coverage ink image, Does anyone know if my print was darker due to the MK being clogged and the PK took over or somethingthing in that system?

I ask to better understand how the colors work. I printed about 12 pieces 24x36", I only have 60  or so to go! ..Trying to make it a smooth process  :o
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Z3200 on Everyday Satin noGloss. B&W prints too dark?
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2014, 07:25:17 am »

I went ahead and took out the head and wiped it on a cloth dipped in distilled water/IPA91/amonia mix and it looks like most of the nozzles are clear. About 3-4 dropped lines in the Diagnostic print.

Before I run off a 4TH 24x36" print of a lot of coverage ink image, Does anyone know if my print was darker due to the MK being clogged and the PK took over or somethingthing in that system?

I ask to better understand how the colors work. I printed about 12 pieces 24x36", I only have 60  or so to go! ..Trying to make it a smooth process  :o

Phil, the media preset for that paper should not use MK at all. It is a glossy paper and it will use the PK in both conditions; with or without the Gloss Enhancer. No MK is used or should be used on that paper. Two profiles for it, one to use if the Gloss Enhancer is used, the other when no Gloss Enhancer is used.

If you want to know which inks are used for different papers then get the HP documents on using Third Party Media and other documents like that, may exist only for the Z3100 but things did not change that much. The Everyday papers fall in the category of the Instant Dry Premium RC if they are not in that list.

The files archive of the Wide Inkjet Printers mailing list at Yahoo has several documents compressed in HP+third? archive file.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots


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Mark Lindquist

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Re: Z3200 on Everyday Satin noGloss. B&W prints too dark?
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2014, 01:18:22 pm »

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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Z3200 on Everyday Satin noGloss. B&W prints too dark?
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2014, 02:57:15 pm »

Thank you Ernst and Mark.

I wish I had more time to do some research on this machine with my issues. I have lots to print before the new year.
But it does things a bit out of my familiarity. (one of the reasons I chose it).

I hope this doesn't sound to be so boring or novice, but  After I did a manual head cleaning... I didn't realize until I read here that I need to recalibrate ...something.

The heads can be calibrated, the paper can have a profile, or you can calibrate a profile....or you make one then that gets calibrated in order to print? I'm confusing myself, and I rather come here than read 300 pages of the manuel that MIGHT not even tell me things...Like the MK ink is not even in the picture (ha!) when printing on this paper. Then you have calibrating from the printer itself!

Yesterday after the manual head cleaning , I replaced the head, I went ahead and made a new Profile (NO GLOSS) as the one in it was 2008 date. Not being sure what I have to recalibrate. The printer said it was ready, and didn't ask to calibrate the printheads.
It took the width of the 24" roll and made a huge swatch profile. Then it scanned and it as done. I thought I would go into QImage  to select this new ICC and it would have a current date. It doesn't. Still 2008. I thought I should restart the machine just in case it needs a kick! Nope!

I had made a Custom paper profile  (I have old stock of HP Premium Plus Photo Satin/thick beautiful paper). I made that profile and it used less swatches on an 11x17 I placed for it. But that paper shows up in Qimage as a 2014..current profile.  

I had a nice 200' roll of this Everyday Satin paper, but all these tests and the media and inks are getting eaten up.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 03:23:13 pm by Phil Indeblanc »
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Z3200 on Everyday Satin noGloss. B&W prints too dark?
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2014, 03:08:49 pm »

Meanwhile I'm reading the Unofficial user info.  Neil's been an HP user for over a decade that I know him.

He is my photo mentor, as when I got into photography a bit more seriously, he was there to help me. I don't shoot beauty, but at the time he was also shooting various subjects.
He also helped me with profiles on my HP130! (although a proper RIP was in need for that thing to do prepress proofs).

*Additionally...
This leads me to a thought now!... before I dived in....My monitors are setup and calibrated for D50. Maybe they should be the D65 standard for RGB? Either way my dark tones on screen are black in print.
My monitor does have a "Mode" buttons for sRGB, Adobe RGB, Emulation and Calibrated Profiles, I don't trust the preset Adobe RGB, so I think I will make a new profile for the D65 wpoint.
But that is more for the paper white than being for the dark tones.
*Update. Even in my RGB mode the dark areas are well defined. Print is NOT.

OK, a coffee and a cheers! to my Saturday being sucked away as I slept around 3-4AM with this issue last night/day!
« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 05:08:47 pm by Phil Indeblanc »
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Z3200 on Everyday Satin noGloss. B&W prints too dark?
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2014, 04:29:30 pm »

Do I just drop this in the "drivers/color" folder and select it in Qimage, or should I be doing a liniarization first?

I guess there are multiple ways to go about this.  Maybe I should JUST plug that ICC in the icc list, and select it and do ANOTHER test print. I'm gonna run out of ink and sanity :-)! by the time I get this fine tuned!
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Z3200 on Everyday Satin noGloss. B&W prints too dark?
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2014, 05:11:20 pm »

That profile I printed the same image with the HP Everyday Satin, that I updated the calibration of.
Then printed the same image using the one downloaded ID Satin...

update soon
« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 05:13:28 pm by Phil Indeblanc »
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deanwork

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Re: Z3200 on Everyday Satin noGloss. B&W prints too dark?
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2014, 05:34:23 pm »

Just for the hell of it try the HP profile for the Premium Satin and see if there is any difference . If there is then that might suggest a problem with your profile.

j


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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Z3200 on Everyday Satin noGloss. B&W prints too dark?
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2014, 06:20:00 pm »

I think that might be a good idea...I better scale these tests down. Otherwise I'm going to be setting up shop in selling poster prints that someone can use, other than me:-P
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Z3200 on Everyday Satin noGloss. B&W prints too dark?
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2014, 07:30:40 pm »

The ID profile does take out some blues and makes those areas less saturated and "purple/Magenta".

Insignificant differences in the darks/blacks.
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Mark Lindquist

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Re: Z3200 on Everyday Satin noGloss. B&W prints too dark?
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2014, 09:00:52 pm »

Wow, you've opened up the can of worms Phil.

As you know, the carefully managed workflow is the way to go from beginning to end.

Here's how the z series printer fits into it.

Profile monitor.

Set color settings in Software - mostly go with pro photo.

You calibrate the paper, you make paper profiles (ICC profiles).

Your profiles are based on existing profiles that you accept as canned, or you update with your own made with the embedded spectrophotometer.

When you make your own custom profiles, they are based on pre-existing profiles.

Find and Download this HP document:

WORKING WITH NON-HP PAPERS.  Near the end are about 4 pages that have charts telling what inks are used for what papers.  THAT becomes your guide to profiling.

If you get overwhelmed and you need to produce quickly for your deadline and don't have the time to learn it all, you can always print letting the printer manage color.  Sacriledge to sway this here, however in certain cases, it does a fairly good job.  Don't rule it out, use your paper profiles and just try it.  The idea is to get your job going and get work done.  It's the point and shoot way of doing it if youre overwhelmed and in a jam.

It takes time to learn to use the Z3200 to its max capabilities.  Wade into one thing at a time and get it down then move on to the next.  Best to use some relatively cheap paper in the formative stage that you can just rip up and throw away. 

Keep asking questions when you need to.

-Mark
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Z3200 on Everyday Satin noGloss. B&W prints too dark?
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2014, 09:10:50 pm »

Hehee...I know I kind of did mention too many things. But I'm in the character of first eliminating what I might have done wrong before I probe elsewhere.

My monitor is solid with proper calibration. Using either profile still shows that area as exposed, not black.

Both profiles do render the exposed area as mostly black.

Well as far as testing and such ...I really only need to deal with 1 paper, the Everyday Satin (no gloss enhance).

So if I can get this paper right, I'm good to go. the key is not to run out of paper :-)

So, I think the profiles each are not rendering the intended output. :-/ I will give a shot with other profiles and see how that is, then create a Custom profile for the Everyday Paper ignoring the built in.

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Mark Lindquist

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Mark Lindquist
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Z3200 on Everyday Satin noGloss. B&W prints too dark?
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2014, 06:58:59 am »

Oddly enough a recalibration was needed.
Now the subtle darks are visible!

I did have a feeling it maybe the screens as mentioned. I'm glad you posted that. It made me want to just go over things.
Although...
Weird, since my prepress colors are a great match from soft to contract proof. ? Oh well. I guess it will be switching from 2 monitor profiles. Either way, Things look good now! I maybe printing some images over :-)
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 01:08:04 pm by Phil Indeblanc »
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Z3200 on Everyday Satin noGloss. B&W prints too dark?
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2014, 04:08:33 pm »

Here is the difference...

After and before calibration

(top image is the after)

If you look at the horizon line of homes, the image above is clear in the large print. While the way I exposed the image before switching from the D50 calibrations told me to open things up more.
This also forced the color in the water to be visible.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 04:14:40 pm by Phil Indeblanc »
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Mark Lindquist

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Re: Z3200 on Everyday Satin noGloss. B&W prints too dark?
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2014, 04:14:26 pm »

Here is the difference...

After and before calibration

(top image is the after)

Wow - huge difference.  Crazy how each link in the chain has be constant and current.

Glad you got it working.  Another hill climbed.
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