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Author Topic: B&W printing options  (Read 117552 times)

TylerB

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2014, 03:33:01 pm »

profiles for soft proof can easily be made with the free utility that comes with QTR. In fact they can be useful for a variety of types of output, including ABW etc.. Whether you make them in RGB mode or grayscale mode, the softproof LUTs are color so they will reflect your ink/paper hue as well.

Tyler
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Jeff-Grant

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2014, 03:36:03 pm »

Thanks Tyler. It looks like my i1 is about to get a bit of a workout.
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Jglaser757

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2014, 05:10:27 pm »

I did a search and came across this while looking for RIP Software. Bowhaus.com!
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Jeff-Grant

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2014, 05:14:49 pm »

Canon only
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JayWPage

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2014, 07:50:31 pm »

Imageprint is a lot of cash for personal use.

I have justified the cost of ImagePrint to myself, as being a cost effective means of saving at least the same amount in ink and paper that otherwise would be wasted. Is that true? I can't definitively say after 1 year of ownership, maybe ask me in 5 years time to see if my opinion has changed.

However, I can say this: (1) that the ability to easily use all sorts of odd proportioned scraps and trimmings of paper for test strips means that I both print more test strips and have fewer full-sized prints I am unhappy with, (2) The paper profiles are very good, and I especially like the fact that there are separate profiles for B&W and color printing, and (3) the ability to reduce the ink load when printing large areas with a solid colour (i.e. black ink in a night-time sky) reduces ink consumption. I believe that Imageprint does this automatically to some extent.

In my opinion, ImagePrint is both very convenient to use and a way to save money in the long run.


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Jeff-Grant

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2014, 07:59:13 pm »

Thanks Jay. I may yet come to that decision but I have all the gear that I need to build profiles etc so I can fiddle to my heart's content at little cost. Maybe, if I'd bought Imageprint a few years back instead of Colorburst, I wouldn't be having this discussion.
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Jeff Grant

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2014, 12:05:16 am »

QTR is not looking too flash on support. I posed one question and got a great response. I then pushed my luck and asked a second. 24 hours later the silence is deafening. Maybe patience is a requirement but it makes learning difficult.
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chez

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2014, 07:57:53 am »

QTR is not looking too flash on support. I posed one question and got a great response. I then pushed my luck and asked a second. 24 hours later the silence is deafening. Maybe patience is a requirement but it makes learning difficult.

You got to understand QTR does not have a large organization behind them. You need to be more patient as they do not have someone sitting at the phone waiting for it to ring.
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Stefan Ohlsson

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2014, 08:38:20 am »

You got to understand QTR does not have a large organization behind them. You need to be more patient as they do not have someone sitting at the phone waiting for it to ring.
The software companies shouldn't be too small, as they can't handle support questions. Software companies shouldn't be too big, bigger companies donít care. Is there an optimum size? ;)
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2014, 08:42:01 am »

QTR is not looking too flash on support. I posed one question and got a great response. I then pushed my luck and asked a second. 24 hours later the silence is deafening. Maybe patience is a requirement but it makes learning difficult.
there is a Yahoo QTR Users Group which has over 4000 members.  A lot of simple questions can be dealt with there.  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/QuadtoneRIP/info 
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Ken Doo

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2014, 09:09:34 am »

You can try QTR for *free* but if you continue to use it, and register (pay the rather nominal and worthwhile fee) it entitles you to full support for QTR. I'll place bets questions are answered much quicker for registered users...   ;)

QTR works great when paired with Jon Cone's K7 B&W Piezography.  I really like the latest MPS iteration of the system.

ken

Eric Brody

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2014, 11:38:24 am »

With the exception of the expensive RIPs, I've tried many different b&w options, from the channel mixer in Photoshop, through the conversion in Lightroom, ABW, and QTR, and have settled on using Silver Effex and doing a straight print. I took a class in Silver Effex from a friend and colleague and learned of its many features. And no I do not work for Nik Software or whomever owns it now. Silver Effex gives impressive control over the process and can produce stunning results. It can also be overdone and produce ghastly results, I know, I've done both. Were there no Silver Effex, I'd certainly use QTR, Roy Harrington wrote and supports a superb piece of software at a very affordable price, a genuine bargain for what you get. I was never able to really do the soft proofing but got to know it pretty well during the time I printed with it. In fact, I've recently experimented with Silver Effex, no toning and then printing in QTR, quite interesting and with impressive potential. I wonder if anyone else has tried this approach.
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chez

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2014, 01:07:36 pm »

With the exception of the expensive RIPs, I've tried many different b&w options, from the channel mixer in Photoshop, through the conversion in Lightroom, ABW, and QTR, and have settled on using Silver Effex and doing a straight print. I took a class in Silver Effex from a friend and colleague and learned of its many features. And no I do not work for Nik Software or whomever owns it now. Silver Effex gives impressive control over the process and can produce stunning results. It can also be overdone and produce ghastly results, I know, I've done both. Were there no Silver Effex, I'd certainly use QTR, Roy Harrington wrote and supports a superb piece of software at a very affordable price, a genuine bargain for what you get. I was never able to really do the soft proofing but got to know it pretty well during the time I printed with it. In fact, I've recently experimented with Silver Effex, no toning and then printing in QTR, quite interesting and with impressive potential. I wonder if anyone else has tried this approach.

I think the two, how you convert to B&W and how you print your converted image are  separate things. I also use SilverEfx to convert the image to B&W, but I get totally different results depending on what method I use to print that same converted image. I have an HP Z3100 printer that I use to print the image if I use some tinting during the conversion to B&W. The Z3100 produces very nice B&W images just printing from LR. I also have a dedicated Epson 3880 printer with Piezography inks and use QTR to print. The prints I get from the Piezography ink set using QTR cannot be matched with the Z3100. The tonal differences are just too much.
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Jeff-Grant

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2014, 03:51:41 pm »

Mea Culpa, as usual, I didn't make myself abundantly clear. It is now close to 48 hours with no response. The questions that I posted were on the QTR forum. I actually joined it in 2008, when, to the best of my knowledge, I also paid for a QTR licence. I can run QTR having not done so since 2008 so I assume that I have a valid license, I'll happily buy one of that isn't the case.

Earlier in this topic, Tyler said that the QTR Yahoo group is vibrant. It appears closer to moribund to me on my small sample, hence my post. I would also dispute support as a function of size. Vuescan is probably the best supported piece of software that I have ever used. I don't think that Ed Hamrick ever sleeps. To the best of my knowledge, he is a one man band.

I am acting on a suggestion that appeared early in this topic which was to try QTR using standard Epson inks, and then progress to a dedicated b&W printer down the line if I found that I liked using QTR. My post on lack of response on the forum was to provide some feedback on my progress.
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TylerB

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2014, 11:21:31 pm »

you are subject to the whims of internet forums there and anywhere. This forum tends to attract fairly quick responses of varying usefulness because of the sheer numbers of members. That group is a niche user group, not a support group, if no one happens to read your post with direct experience with your particular issues, you are likely to get no reply. Nonetheless it is certainly vibrant compared to other niche groups I'm on, and often Roy will address posts there directly. I'll reply for you there as best I can. Hamrick is an anomaly, certainly not the norm to expect from others. I usually get answers there, but I may have to wait some days.
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Jeff-Grant

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2014, 11:29:26 pm »

Thanks Tyler. That makes good sense. It's a pity that it isn't a bit more active. It would make learning a lot quicker.  I agree that Ed Hamrick is an anomaly, and I'm pleased that he is. There  are plenty of other smallish outfits who provide excellent service these days. My experience has been generally good of late. I have spent thirty something years supporting my own software for mainframes. It's not an easy gig when things go wrong, and mainframe users tend to have bigger clubs to beat you with.
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Schewe

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2014, 11:47:00 pm »

I have never used ABW on my Epson printers, but feel that the other options for B&W are more attractive.

Not for nothing, but if you haven't explored the Epson ABW, you are working from a point of ignorance...do you have half a clue about what you are doing? There's a big difference between how to convert from color>B&W and how to print B&W images...so far, nothing you've posted indicates you have half a clue how to print B&W (since you've never bothered to use ABW on Epson printers).

You can flail away as you want, or maybe, you might want to ask the ultimate question: how one prints the ultimate B&W images?
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Jeff-Grant

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2014, 12:01:07 am »

Humble apologies, Jeff, I was unaware of the need to prove that I know what I am talking about. Further, I was also unaware that ABW was what I need to demonstrate proficiency in to show that I am not clueless. I hope that I may have at least some clue having watched your videos and read your book but possibly not. If I were to ask the question 'how one prints the ultimate B&W images?' would you provide an answer?
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Schewe

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2014, 06:10:15 pm »

If I were to ask the question 'how one prints the ultimate B&W images?' would you provide an answer?

You betcha...assuming you want to use an unmodified Epson, I would suggest the QTR...it's really easy on Mac but more problematic on Win. However, if you are willing to use 3rd party inks, I would suggest the Cone B&W inks. However, it's a one way trip and even then I would suggest using the QTR to drive it.

Sorry you were offended with my previous post, but asking for alternatives without having used ABW on your own images struck me as odd. If you do learn how to use ABW then you'll have something to compare to alternative approaches.
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deanwork

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Re: B&W printing options
« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2014, 06:53:37 pm »

QTR is not difficult and there is a workflow available on the website. To have that capability in a $50.00 shareware software is a miracle and I would say it is the biggest bang for the buck you could find in this world of monochrome printmaking, IF you are using an Epson machine, regardless of the inkset you are using.

Really he's done all the work for you unless you are using some exotic media. All you have to do is install the package, select the QTR driver in Photoshop as your printer, pull down the menu to select your curve and you are done. If you want to soft proof for color as Tyler is describing it is slightly more involved but very well designed. Personally I don't soft proof monochrome because I've always done paper tests to select my hue toning if necessary and use those settings over and over. Most of us only use two or three mono print colors anyway. QTR also has split toning capability, and that is also well designed.

If you are on the Canon platform, True Black and White is fantastic, and that's what I use on the LF Canon. It costs a lot more than QTR and only works on Mac, but it's a damn good solution in that you can use only black and gray inks for a neutral print, and easily tone your file if that is needed by simply adjusting hue sliders. Then you save that setting for future use. It also allows you to plug your I1 spectro directly into the software and linearize your specific paper using their pre made grayscale. It is well worth the money if you print with a Canon IPF printer.

Epson ABW is adequate for some people and easy to use but the other above options give you much more control of profile making and linearization, and they can shut off the problem yellow ink entirely. For those of you who don't know, Epson bw prints are quite permanent as long as you avoid the yellow.

Studio Print is the ultimate for monochrome printing and no one has ever beat that really, but quite a bit more expensive than Image Print or any of these. The workflow is has a significant learning curve and support for bw printing from Ergo Soft is a pain in the ass. It can be linearized with multiple iterations to really fine tune tonal distribution and I find it makes slightly sharper prints with Epson 2880 ppi workflows.  I just quit using it because QTR will do anything I need to have done just about as well If I"m on the Epson platform with a lot less trouble.

john
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