Profoto Narrow Beam Reflector

[JoeKitchen]

I am starting to work more with hotels and resorts and I really would like to move away from this even flat "natural feel" lighting that has become so popular these days (especially with architects and designers) when I work hospitality clients.  I want to introduce more key lighting and light & shadow to simulate sunlight.  I tried this on a recent shoot, but ultimately feel that I failed at it, primarily because I did not have the right modifier. 

I have a few soft boxes with grids, but I find that (even with the gird) the spread is too much.  Also, the soft boxes tend to be too ... well ... soft. 

I tried the Magnum reflector, which is easy to rent, and is marketed having a very even spot light with sharp shadows that simulates sunlight.  Problem with this is that if you spill it into a room, since the spread is so even, light that hits an area closer to the reflector will be brighter then light that hits an area further away.  This is not how direct sunlight works; direct sunlight maintains the same intensity throughout a scene. 

So this brings me to the narrow beam reflector.  It is marketed as having the same degree of spread as the magnum but with a center hotspot and softer less bright edges.  I figure that this could work well in a small room to simulate reflected/indirect sunlight, since indirect sunlight often looks like this when only hitting part of a room.  For a larger room with more depth, it could be easier to simulate direct sunlight with this reflector since the center is brighter then the edge and, over a longer spill, would decrease in intensity such that it would match the intensity of areas closer to the reflector.  Beyond the center, if the edges are soft, it would not matter too much or I could just flag that edge. 

Problem is, few places rent that reflector, which means I would probably have to buy it to test it.  Also, I can not find any images online that diffidently say "narrow beam reflector used in this image."  I have been looking at Ashley's work very intently recently and feel that he uses the narrow beam reflector in some images, but I can not say for sure. 

Does anyone have experience with this reflector and can concur with my assumptions?  Also, does anyone have images that I could look at that used the narrow beam reflector?

[Ken R]

Joe. I think I understood your post well but if I misinterpreted something please correct me.

Direct sunlight maintains the same intensity throughout a scene because the main source (sun) is very far away so there is no light falloff due to the difference in distance between the elements in the scene and the light source (at least percentage wise is miniscule). Also the Sky, and even other surfaces outside the windows act as a very large fill source.

There are ways you can (almost) simulate this type of light. That is to use HMi (PAR or Fresnel) sources from outside, a good distance from the windows. You can add diffusion to taste but generally a large bare HMi Fresnel is quite effective. I have used a profoto head with Magnum reflector to get close to this effect although the shadow is not nearly as clean as with a Fresnel.

To control light spill and intensity that falls on elements close to the source (that might tell the tale of a light present) Half/scrims and flags are invaluable.

It really helps to shape the light the same shape of the window with the edges softened a bit to prevent too much light from hitting the window frame which should be the closest element of the scene to the light source. But sometimes if the light is far enough away that is not really needed.  

[Chris Barrett]

Ken hit it, distance is the key. Get the most powerful source you can afford as far away from the window as you can. Aside from reducing falloff, this also creates more parallel shadows. This is why film gaffers put 30k HMIs on cherry pickers (condors) a 1/4 mile or more from the set.

[JoeKitchen]

Ken hit it, distance is the key. Get the most powerful source you can afford as far away from the window as you can. Aside from reducing falloff, this also creates more parallel shadows. This is why film gaffers put 30k HMIs on cherry pickers (condors) a 1/4 mile or more from the set.

Yes, distance is key, probably the best for getting window light coming in and making it look exactly like sunlight. 

But that is not always practical.  Plus I do not want to totally recreate that look throughout the entire room.  Just a small spot here or there.  I like the idea of what they say the narrow beam reflector could do, I just can not find any images where it is said that it was used.

Maybe a fresnel modifier would be good to play with too, but once again very few places rent them.  (It would be worth the drive to rent a fresnel adapter since they are much more expensive.) 

[JoeKitchen]

Here is an image on Ashley's website (hope you do not mind Ashley) that has a little direct light hitting right above the fireplace.  It looks like it could be sunlight to the disconcerting viewer, but it is not.  

http://www.ampimage.com/Photography80.htm

It you look at the window, the shadows are angled down whereas the shadows above the fireplace are more horizontal.  That light can not possibly be coming from the window; it has to be coming from inside the room left of camera.  It looks too soft to be a normal reflector and appears to have a center hotspot.  Also, it looks like there is a little bit of light hitting the love seat from it too.  

This little bit of light adds so much to the image and really draws your eye towards it.  

What light modifier did you use, please?    

[Ken R]

For spots like that the light just has to be outside the frame. It could even be inside the room even hidden behind a piece of furniture. A regular reflector with grid works well in situations like that. Cinefoil is also great for shaping the light also.

Check out the effect of the cine reflector with different lenses: http://anthonylukephotography.blogspot.com/2012/06/profotos-continuous-light-cine.html

[Chris Barrett]

Well, that's much easier to pull off.  Here are a couple I've posted before.

This has a K5600 Joker 800 par coming through a window, probably 15 feet away.



Same light here, maybe 20 feet away.



Many moons ago I assisted a fashion shooter who cut the back out of a Source 4 stage light and stuck a speedotron head in it.  It gave REALLY sharp shadows.  Might be a good way to go.  I have one adapted for use with the Joker HMI.  Makes great sunlight.

In summation, I don't believe any reflector will really give you as narrow a beam as you want.  I think you'll need something with a lens in front of it for the control you're after.

[JoeKitchen]

Those are nice. 

The magnum reflector I found to be not as bright as I thought it would be with 2400 w/s of juice going through the head.  (Keep in mind I was using a 2x CF on the camera.)

Do modifiers with lenses, like a fresnel adapter, provide a more concentrated light than a magnum would?  (I would like to rent one, but a 5 hour round trip to pick it up and then return it is a lot of loss time. Maybe this winter would be a good time to fool around.) 

[Chris Barrett]

Not stronger, just more controllable.
 

[JoeKitchen]

Judging by the angle of the light, that must be one tall light stand if you have it 20 feet away. 

Are you using a Matthews Mombo Combo stand?

[JoeKitchen]

Thank you Ashley, that is what I thought.  Great blog post too. 

It looks to be very similar to the Profoto narrow beam reflector.  Although, I can see a reason for why the fresnel adapter would be a better choose Chris; I just don't want to spend $1600 on a modifier.

[K.C.]

It looks to be very similar to the Profoto narrow beam reflector. 

Not really. I own both and the look is quite different. If I weren't in a hotel a couple thousand miles from my office I'd try to find some images to demonstrate the difference. I think one of the reasons you don't see images referencing the PF narrow is because it's pretty limited and not every popular.

The Bowens is 17" in diameter and they claim 40 degree spread. The Profoto is just over 13" and they claim a 32 degree spread. The big difference is the depth and the tube/head.

PF head is a white globe and though it's focus-able the reflector is so short there's really little variation in effect by moving it. There's a notable hot spot and rapid fall off. The Bowens/Calumet head is going to be a clear cover on the tube and shorter so it sits back in the deeper, larger reflector and produces a more specular light. Diffused just enough by that reflector to create a nice sunlight look. They make grids for both but the Bowens also has an option that widens it a bit with the grid.

I'm sure you find the PF to rent and try and Calumet in New York will have the Bowens on display at one of their stores.

   

[DanielStone]

The legendary Dean Collins talks about something similar here(towards the end):

http://youtu.be/7OfzlIxzU7A?list=PLA0C70B9A496EEF53

and here(more in-depth):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekRet4v2LR8&list=PLA0C70B9A496EEF53&index=2

Ya, he talks about shooting onto film, but the working practices are still the same

cheers,
Dan

[David Eichler]

Depending upon the kind of "sunlight" you are looking for, I would guess that things get a bit trickier when the window is on, say, the 30th floor.

Btw, LL really should have a lighting forum.

[DanielStone]

Depending upon the kind of "sunlight" you are looking for, I would guess that things get a bit trickier when the window is on, say, the 30th floor.

Btw, LL really should have a lighting forum.

Yes - but where there is a will, there is often away - so it's only a bit trickier if there is no window above the room or below it or to the either side of it that one can use - which is were having an assistant, a long boom-arm and light that doesn't weight very much comes into play

Ya, but "where there's a will, there IS a way" :

http://youtu.be/0oy9SiOqDcY?list=UUdBx6G8FohgLeA_K57SMDDg

(starting about the 0:20 mark onwards)

[David Eichler]

Yes - but where there is a will, there is often away - so it's only a bit trickier if there is no window above the room or below it or to the either side of it that one can use - which is were having an assistant, a long boom-arm and light that doesn't weight very much comes into play

Of course. I was thinking of a modern, wall-of-glass type of high rise with windows that don't open.

Of course there is usually always a way, assuming the budget will accommodate that.

[calindustries]

I'm sure you find the PF to rent and try and Calumet in New York will have the Bowens on display at one of their stores.

 

Not without a time machine... No calumet in New York.

[JoeKitchen]

All great information. 

[Manoli]

LL really should have a lighting forum.

+1

[Ken R]

I find that with most reflectors the quality of the shadow edge is not that great. Only fresnels give that perfect sun like shadow. There is really no substitute for a large fresnel. PARs are great also because even small units can put out a lot of light and the shadow is pretty nice, but the light is a bit harsher than the fresnels. A 1.2k Arri PAR is a great light to imitate or supplement sunlight. It is pretty small and light, plugs into any household outlet and puts out a lot of light and gives out a nice sharp shadow.

I played around with a profoto cine reflector in a studio in New York and man, it is VERY nice and I think it is a great alternative for the Arri PARs

In the image I attached I used an Arri 1.2K PAR outside and 3 profoto lights with softboxes inside the space to the left (one) and right two, way to the side. Two were on the corners next to the windows pointed diagonally towards the camera a bit and one to the right of me feathered a bit.