Request for advice getting started in digital medium format

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

My understanding is that serious dealers make a throughout check of the camera, so buying from those dealers would ensure that the back is within specs.

I bought mine privately, from "Mr. Rib" here on LuLa, he also arranged the 555ELD I am using with the back and he also checked focusing accuracy.

Works fine for me.

Best regards
Erik

With US dealers there is quite competitive prices on older "pre-owned" units, going through them is probably a good idea. Around here the prices are however much less competitive, I get considerably better deals off forums. Even with my repair debacle I had on my unit it became a lower cost deal than going through a dealer here in Sweden.

[eronald]

I don't see anyone that has suggested a tethered-only solution, but maybe I missed that. P25+ is actually quite modern and while Hasselblad CF-22 / CF-132 is 10 years it still stand-alone with compact flash. So as long as the electronics does not die and you have a stash of not-too-new-and-large CFs it will work. I would certainly not recommend going tether only say with a Phase One H25 or Sinarback.

It's true that running with old electronics is a risk project. Digital backs are officially supported for about 10 years, you can find out in advance what type of repairs that can still be made. Even if a back is no longer officially supported some repairs can still be made, like changing IR filter if you scratch it or replacing clock battery. You probably can't get a total electronics replacement or sensor replacement but for such an old back it wouldn't be worth it anyway, it would be cheaper to buy a new second hand unit.

With US dealers there is quite competitive prices on older "pre-owned" units, going through them is probably a good idea. Around here the prices are however much less competitive, I get considerably better deals off forums. Even with my repair debacle I had on my unit it became a lower cost deal than going through a dealer here in Sweden.

Torger -

*I* am suggesting a tethered solution because it is *cheap*. There is no reason not to use a H25 or V96, they correspond perfectly to a field workflow with  tech cam, and can be had for $1000.  If you are going to go for cheap and elderly, you might as well go for really cheap, no?

Edmund

[torger]

Torger -

*I* am suggesting a tethered solution because it is *cheap*. There is no reason not to use a H25 or V96, they correspond perfectly to a field workflow with  tech cam, and can be had for $1000.  If you are going to go for cheap and elderly, you might as well go for really cheap, no?

Sorry Edmund I misunderstood

Okay yes it's true it's even cheaper indeed. I draw myself the line at compact flash standalone and somewhere around 2004. The cheapest standalone deals on 22 megapixel backs is about $3k sometimes even less. I think that's low enough in relation to the camera body and lenses (which I think will be around $10k in this case), and saving $1k more to get a tether only solution is not really worth it in my humble opinion. If one would really want to go tether-only I think I'd look for a Sinarback 54M.

[torger]

My understanding is that serious dealers make a throughout check of the camera, so buying from those dealers would ensure that the back is within specs.

That may be true, on the other hand getting such a check after you've bought your back privately costs about $700. Add that to the price on your private deal when comparing. For a 22-39 megapixel back I doubt that it's a large risk that it actually drifts out of spec unless it's been smashed to the ground or something (which indeed might have happened). Dealers would probably like to push some FUD on private deals though, but overall I think they're quite safe, this type of equipment is generally bought from serious photographers that handle their gear with at least some care.

I've heard reports though that units are not always up to spec when leaving the factory in the first place. Alpa has shimming adapter plates just to battle this problem, but I think it's more relevant for the 60 and 80 megapixel backs than for 22-39 megapixel backs.

[eronald]

V96C and H25 are cheap from dealers, the MS version of the 96C has incredible resolution, the 96C can work with an imagebank and a standard battery with no comp in the field, so I think these are the best tech cam solutions. As for buying privately, I know that the last time I switched on my P45+ after a year's storage, it had lost a column. This happens occasionally to CCDs, and is unpredictable. The local Phase rep had to get it fixed for free (back under value added warranty, visible electronic fault) but he clearly didn't like to do it., as it cost him time and money. After all I had already paid for the warranty, I wasn't going to pay any more or buy anything else soon, so I could understand the sour face. I got the message and sold the back, before the next out of warranty minor issue cost me a fortune. With MF either you should have a good dealer (Steve, Doug) or just go cheap and no dealer. Anywhere in between costs you a lot of money and is no fun. Frankly, I'd go with Steve or Doug because they can probably build a package for a beginner, and they have a good rep. A bad dealer however is a curse.

Edmund

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi Anders,

I guess that this may be the case.

Joseph Holmes posted a few articles on the issue:

http://www.josephholmes.com/news-sharpmediumformat.html
http://www.josephholmes.com/news-medformatprecision.html

But, that was back in 2009, things may have been improved.

I don't think dealers are spreading FUD on the issue. On the other hand I must say that I am not happy with the dealer system we are dealing with. Obviously some dealers are ver knowledgeable, but quite obviously not all dealers are. But, if there is an issue with a camera or a back, I would say that any user should be entitled to send it to the manufacturer for service. Also, service costs on MFD seem to be unproportionally high.

That said, my experience with my Phase One Dealer, D3 Image AB in Sweden, has been positive. But I only bought some cables and viewfinder masks. They delivered efficiently and at decent price.

Best regards
Erik

I've heard reports though that units are not always up to spec when leaving the factory in the first place.

[torger]

I agree... I have myself a magical limit of $150 per megapixel, if it's more expensive than that I don't buy. Still that's related to how much you can afford to lose. I see many private sales of really high end backs too, but their economy is on another scale than my small amateur economy. Even if a purchase would be 100% safe I do not want to have too expensive equipment, if I don't dare to put my tripod into a little stream because I'm afraid of causing an economical disaster then I'm using too expensive gear.

I'm truly an expert buyer though so I would ask for a raw file check for dead columns before buying, ideally a LCC shot so I can look for IR glass scratches too. I can even see if a dead column has been sent in and fixed in the calibration data :-). CCDs have a few dead pixels out of the factory which is masked out by calibration data so that's normal, but dead columns (or partially dead) is more rare, I don't know if they released such stuff new, but I have seen it on a P45+ with matching calibration data.

I've seen it twice in the many test files I've got through my raw developer work, once for a P45+ and once for a Kodak 35mm camera, but if I would search actively for it I'd probably find it in more.

Things to look for when buying an older second hand back

- Check if it can be repaired and what the cost is, there's usually a fixed price list for typical repairs
- Does the clock work?
- Is the IR filter scratch free?
- Has the CCD dead columns?
- Has the back been shot in similar environmental conditions you expect it to work (ie extreme hot or cold)?
- Which type of CF cards does it accept, and can you still get them?

A malfunctioning clock (depleted clock battery) and scratched IR filter can probably be fixed so it's not necessarily a deal breaker, but you need to check what that repair will cost and deduct that and some more (for the risk) from the purchase price. A semidead column does not need to be a deal breaker either, as it can be quite nicely cleaned up with appropriate calibration data, but it should be mirrored in the price.

[torger]

A new Techno with Rodenstock 40 and CFV-50c is $25k. Linhof Studio is selling a kit.

Worth comparing with if the budget grows. I don’t like the back's wide angle limitations, but if you can accept them it's a great combo (assuming it delivers on live view), at a total price $10k less than an IQ250 back alone, which employs the same sensor...

[Doug Peterson]

That may be true, on the other hand getting such a check after you've bought your back privately costs about $700. Add that to the price on your private deal when comparing. For a 22-39 megapixel back I doubt that it's a large risk that it actually drifts out of spec unless it's been smashed to the ground or something (which indeed might have happened). Dealers would probably like to push some FUD on private deals though, but overall I think they're quite safe, this type of equipment is generally bought from serious photographers that handle their gear with at least some care.

Ironic that you'd say dealers would push FUD about private deals. One man's "FUD" is another mans "accurate information about the pros and cons of purchasing different ways".

You bought privately and spent many MONTHS, a good amount of cash, and a lot of frustration.

If you had purchased from DT we would have been glad to provide you options to evaluate how well your intended solution worked in your intended use-case (cold Swedish weather) to make sure the product you were after was the right one for you. Then if you ran into problems after purchase we know the repair techs and repair procedures extremely well, and would do everything we could to help make that process easy for you (we'd have no problem volunteering to do testing involving a freezer to reproduce specific cold-weather failures) and if with that knowledge and help a standard repair didn't seem to do the trick we'd find some creative solution to make sure you were taken care of.  In no case would you have banged your head against the wall for months. You may well have paid a bit more (in our case our pre-owned gear is pretty reasonably priced IMO, but we can't always match the single lowest eBay price at a given moment), but your forehead would have felt much better. If someone purchases from us and needs help I can't promise the world (e.g. out of warranty repairs still cost money, things still break, especially things like shutters) but I do have pretty large leeway on making sure they are happy with their purchase. If someone purchases elsewhere and needs help my leeway is not as large.

To be clear, most such private sales are entirely hassle free. But there is no question the level of confidence you have of a hassle free transaction and life of ownership is better when buying from a good dealer than when buying e.g. from eBay. This is not FUD; this is just a fact.

[Doug Peterson]

Things to look for when buying an older second hand back

- Check if it can be repaired and what the cost is, there's usually a fixed price list for typical repairs
- Does the clock work?
- Is the IR filter scratch free?
- Has the CCD dead columns?
- Has the back been shot in similar environmental conditions you expect it to work (ie extreme hot or cold)?
- Which type of CF cards does it accept, and can you still get them?

Our checklist in-house for evaluating pre-owned backs has about 25 more items on it . But then again, having sold more digital backs than anyone, we know nearly every single thing that can go wrong with them .

[torger]

Doug, you know as much as me that my hassle is a demonstration of the failure of Leaf's European dealer network and has nothing to do with me buying privately. I turned to the designated dealer first thing when issues appeared, payed the full repair fee and still the problem could not be solved. I tried two dealers or maybe three, don't remember now, only when I short cut them and sent a video to Leaf centrally demonstrating the issue it was promptly resolved.

That Leaf Aptus does not work in cold weather may be your opinion, but it's not Leaf's and they did fix it when faced with the fact. I think the truth is they have sample variation, but take responsibility if someone gets into trouble. There was a thick layer of sluggishness on the dealer level to get through first though.

I don’t doubt that you would have dealt it in an excellent way and hopefully not sold me a faulty back (it took a number of months before I realised it did not do cold weather, and indeed I'm sure one of your points is test driving in -30C before selling or gladly take on the repair cost if you missed it even after expired warranty), but I am not the US, and import taxes are real bad. The type of dealer you represent is rare around here.

[torger]

Our checklist in-house for evaluating pre-owned backs has about 25 more items on it . But then again, having sold more digital backs than anyone, we know nearly every single thing that can go wrong with them .

Wow, 25 items I guess the products would look bad if that ever went public

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Getting back to the issue, I would point out that almost all photographic equipment has a stated operating range of 0C to 40C. As far as I recall from your description, you had a repair (exchanging the E-box). After the repair you claimed:

1) That the repair did not resolve the issue
2) You have found out that the dealer sent erroneous description of the error to Leaf.

After the repair, you claimed warranty on repair, but:

1) As your problems appeared below 0C, that is outside environmental specifications, your claim was rejected by Leaf (or the dealer)
2) Once you could demonstrate that the problem at 1C (within environmental specifications) the problem was resolved as a warranty issue on the original repair.

All that process took something like 6-9 months?

Is that a somewhat correct description?

Best regards
Erik

Doug, you know as much as me that my hassle is a demonstration of the failure of Leaf's European dealer network and has nothing to do with me buying privately. I turned to the designated dealer first thing when issues appeared, payed the full repair fee and still the problem could not be solved. I tried two dealers or maybe three, don't remember now, only when I short cut them and sent a video to Leaf centrally demonstrating the issue it was promptly resolved.

That Leaf Aptus does not work in cold weather may be your opinion, but it's not Leaf's and they did fix it when faced with the fact. I think the truth is they have sample variation, but take responsibility if someone gets into trouble. There was a thick layer of sluggishness on the dealer level to get through first though.

I don’t doubt that you would have dealt it in an excellent way and hopefully not sold me a faulty back (it took a number of months before I realised it did not do cold weather, and indeed I'm sure one of your points is test driving in -30C before selling), but I am not the US, and import taxes are real bad. The type of dealer you represent is rare around here.

[eronald]

Erik,

 Normal life for tourist varies between -20 or so and +40 in the shade (add sun) with high humidity.
 Most japanese cameras take this without issues.
 Cameras are outdoor equipment.
Edmund

Hi,

Getting back to the issue, I would point out that almost all photographic equipment has a stated operating range of 0C to 40C. As far as I recall from your description, you had a repair (exchanging the E-box). After the repair you claimed:

1) That the repair did not resolve the issue
2) You have found out that the dealer sent erroneous description of the error to Leaf.

After the repair, you claimed warranty on repair, but:

1) As your problems appeared below 0C, that is outside environmental specifications, your claim was rejected by Leaf (or the dealer)
2) Once you could demonstrate that the problem at 1C (within environmental specifications) the problem was resolved as a warranty issue on the original repair.

All that process took something like 6-9 months?

Is that a somewhat correct description?

Best regards
Erik

[torger]

You may very well have a better memory than me :-) there was so much happening that I can have mixed up it a bit. That I could demonstrate the issue above 0C even after E-box replacement did help. I think Leaf centrally has an ambition to support cold weather conditions, got that impression when talking to them, but on the road there was some interesting back stabbing by Phase One support engineers claiming the Aptus was flawed and Phase One product would have been better.

My current Aptus works in -30C by the way, I've tried.

Hi,

Getting back to the issue, I would point out that almost all photographic equipment has a stated operating range of 0C to 40C. As far as I recall from your description, you had a repair (exchanging the E-box). After the repair you claimed:

1) That the repair did not resolve the issue
2) You have found out that the dealer sent erroneous description of the error to Leaf.

After the repair, you claimed warranty on repair, but:

1) As your problems appeared below 0C, that is outside environmental specifications, your claim was rejected by Leaf (or the dealer)
2) Once you could demonstrate that the problem at 1C (within environmental specifications) the problem was resolved as a warranty issue on the original repair.

All that process took something like 6-9 months?

Is that a somewhat correct description?

Best regards
Erik

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

When I bought my P45+, my initial idea was to buy a H2 with a corresponding Aptus back and use the old V-lenses with an adapter.  A friend in Bavaria suggested I would be better of with a P45+ and a V-series "Blad". That, and your experience made me a P45+ owner. A happy owner, BTW.

Your problems with the Aptus may have been rare. On the other hand, the P-series has a very good reputation.

Best regards
Erik

You may very well have a better memory than me :-) there was so much happening that I can have mixed up it a bit. That I could demonstrate the issue above 0C even after E-box replacement did help. I think Leaf centrally has an ambition to support cold weather conditions, got that impression when talking to them, but on the road there was some interesting back stabbing by Phase One support engineers claiming the Aptus was flawed and Phase One product would have been better.

My current Aptus works in -30C by the way, I've tried.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi Edmund,

Yes, I am ware of that. But, if you read the manual, it say 0-40 degrees C, exceptions are rare. Very clearly, equipment operates outside that range.

On the other hand, my impression was that Anders (Torger) was denied warranty repair for issues slightly below 0C, but he got his repair when he could demonstrate the problem at +1C. That indicates that Leaf sees the issue as a contractual point.

Now, it is quite obvious that Nikon and Canon work below zero centigrade, else we would not have coverage from the winter Olympics. I am also in doubt if Canon or Nikon professional services ask you if you happened to use their equipment below zero degree Celsius before fixing it.

Best regards
Erik

Erik,

 Normal life for tourist varies between -20 or so and +40 in the shade (add sun) with high humidity.
 Most japanese cameras take this without issues.
 Cameras are outdoor equipment.
Edmund

[Wolven]

Thanks for that dreidesq. I will try this out tomorrow. But I think I prefer getting the image made in camera without resorting to "virtual" long exposure. I'll check and get back to you.

Just to throw in my 2 pence worth. If you don't mind doing 4-8 shots of the same scene at 8-20 secs exposure each time and stack them in Photoshop you will get a noiseless very long exposure picture without the need for buying a P+ back.

http://www.verdantvista.com/tut9

or you could just shoot film.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwet9oooF7M

[Wolven]

If 22 megapixels is enough for you to start with it can be mentioned that much of the angst related to poor LCDs, having the sharpest lenses etc go away.

With 22 megapixels the focusing challenge becomes less of an issue and you don't feel the same need to pixelpeep directly on the back. In difficult conditions you can stop down to f/16 and not really loose any resolution.

While the Kodak sensors indeed are a bit aging, they have a good reputation concerning a nice saturated "film-like" look, and indeed they're good at a slide-film type of look. This you can find also in old CCD-based DSLRs Kodak made once. Incorporating that look in your style will put good use of the back.

Use grads and strive for natural looks rather than crazy overly tonemapped stuff and the DR won't be a problem either.

You might be interested in using the same type of grad technique I do. Tech cameras need a calibration shot (the one with the white LCC card in front) and I shoot that with the grad filter still on. Then when you apply the LCC the grad will disappear too, you get a flat file with better exposed foreground. Then you can tonemap that in whatever way you want in your raw converter, which indeed to me often means applying a virtual grad again as the central part of tonemapping. The advantage with this technique is that you can apply more precise tonemapping and you can have sharper and stronger grads in the field and if it's not perfectly placed it does not really matter, as you cancel it out. The disadvantage is that you lose a little bit of the joy of "finishing the image in camera" which for some is the very reason they use grads.

I've taken note of this technique, Anders. I'm still only halfway through your Linhof techno article.

I would certainly prefer using layered grads to control highlights in an image but this aspect of photography is very new to me and I'm glad to have found a bunch of knowledgeable people on this forum to point out the day to day challenges and techniques used to overcome them. This stuff is never covered in the marketing videos (of which there are very few in the medium format space) and probably buried in the manuals.

[Wolven]

About long exposure, if you do them by applying a 10 stop filter, ie shoot in daylight, you're fine, but if you're really shooting at night and you intend to focus with ground glass you're up for some challenges. I manage to focus my SK35 on the Linhof bright groundglass in conditions so dark that it would require 4 minutes exposure, but it's not super-easy, and you need to do tricks like focus directly on center and compose afterwards, and test-shoot to really see where the edges of the frame are as you can't really see that on the ground glass.

I have a strong headlamp with me so if I need to focus on something close rather than infinity it's okay. A laser pointer can work too, but I find it easier to focus on real subjects lit by a lamp, and I need a headlamp as a part of the safety equipment anyway. If you have nighttime city-scapes there's always street lamps to focus at. But pitch-dark kind of shooting conditions is not going to be fun with ground glass. Then having an RM3Di or Alpa or Cambo and just dial in the hyperfocal or infinity will certainly be appreciated. You will still have issues to see where the corners of the frame will get though.

With the Linhof Techno I know some actually use the infinity stops in their traditional use, ie as stops for hyperfocal or inifinty for a certain lens and aperture, but I find them extremely hard to place with the precision I'd like to have, so I only use two pairs for parallelism guarantee, one placed for short lenses and one pair for long. I think the design of the rail on the Techno is flawed, they use a traditional film design (infinity stops, spring-loaded mechanism, just as they've always had on their Technika 4x5" field cameras) that is not adequate for the extreme parallelism precision we've come to expect in digital. Using of infinity stops works around that flaw though, and in total I think the Techno is still the best field view camera for landscape work you can get for digital.

Cheers Torger. I ran into this very real problem with my DSLR two days ago. In an impromptu midnight outing with a few friends I tried to do some long exposure photography and forgot to take my torchlight in a hurry. It was then an exercise in roughly estimating distance to the subject and setting focus. I haven't had a look at the pics on anything besides the back LCD.

This is obviously an area that needs work for me. Perhaps laser distance metering is the way to go. Will the laser with a HPF ring work on the Techno?