Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Wolven on October 14, 2014, 10:37:12 pm

Title: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 14, 2014, 10:37:12 pm
I posted this in the beginner's section and was advised that I might have better luck posting in this subsection of the forum.. so here goes..

Hello folks!

I am a long time lurker, first time poster/amateur who does landscape photography purely for the love of it. Been shooting for 4 years and have quite a long distance to go.

I'm a huge fan of work by Joe Cornish who uses a Linhof Techno (if I can remember correctly) for some precision tilt/shift work.

I currently use a D600 with a 24mm PC-E lens for most of my landscape photography and complement it with a 200mm F4 Micro Nikkor and a nifty fifty.

I want to start looking at digital medium format.

I'm on a budget when considering the high RRP for medium format in general so I'll end up buying second hand products most of the time.

What would your recommendation be for someone like me? I'm in no hurry to get started and would like some sound knowledge before proceeding.

Some attractive options (for various reasons) seem to be the older Phase One backs with some cheaper alternative to either a Linhof Techno or one of the Alpa 12 line of cameras with a tilt-shift adapter

Then there is the Pentax 645z with Hartblei TS purely attractive from a, high value for money, perspective...

Am I completely off the mark? Please advise.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 14, 2014, 11:30:45 pm
My personal view is that the 645Z is the best option for landscape if you intend to use your back on an SLR camera.

Michael seems to agree.

Things get a bit more complicated if you consider technical cameras and there is IMHO, no perfect solution. CCD based cameras work better with movements but lack usable live view which can be a problem for critical focusing. The recent Sony sensor based cameras have live view, but they don't seem to work that well with movements on tech cameras.

All in all, a second hand P45+ may be your best bet for technical camera usage at a reasonnable price point if the lack of live view isn't a show stopper.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 15, 2014, 02:15:43 am
You sound to be in a similar situation like I was in 2012 when I bought a second hand MFD Linhof Techno system.

My Linhof Techno review could be helpful to you (which talk about tech cams in more generic terms too not only the Techno): http://www.ludd.ltu.se/~torger/photography/linhof-techno-review.html

If you get into MF with the right expectations it can be wonderful, but don't buy too much into the hype. Much of the hype is about studio work, out of focus look and skin tones, something you have little use of in landscape. In landscape much of the hype is related to the resolving power of the most expensive tech cam lenses on the highest resolution backs, something you and I doesn't afford.

That said, if you want a DSLR experience there's the 645Z, there you have the CMOS technology and all features you find in a 135 DSLR, and for being MF it's affordable and there's still a few second hand lenses to be had.

I think it was very worthwhile to go the tech cam way, but then you need to compromise a bit concerning digital back. You can get a Hasselblad CFV-50c with CMOS and liveview, buying it in Japan it's $10k, but wide angles will be an issue as documented elsewhere. If you shoot wide angle it's better with a CCD. P45+ is popular due to its well-documented reliability and long exposure, but is also one of the most expensive second hand backs. I got myself a Leaf Aptus 75 and still today it's very good price/performance (for being MFD), and you can do focus check unlike on the P45+ (most older backs render 100% view so fuzzy you can't know for sure it's sharp or not).

Compared to a D810 you will miss mainly a few things with the CCD backs, 1) they're more noisy, 2) you don't have (any good/usable) live view, 3) most don't have long exposure. Using grad filters is a good idea, and having a post-processing style that's not too much grunge HDR-like, ie don't push shadows 4 stops. If you have a bit more old-school processing you'll find also the older CCD backs to have good DR, a back from 2004 still has better DR than a recent Canon, and noise is well-behaved no patterns and such. Concerning long exposure there are a few exceptions like the P25+ and P45+, but most are limited to about 30 seconds, and at 30 seconds they're quite noisy if the weather is warm. I use my Aptus 75 up to its 30 second limit quite often but shoot often in cold weather too.

Concerning lacking the live view there are two methods, A) ground glass, B) high precision focusing rings on the pancake cameras. In my review I look into ground glass focusing extensively, and yes with training, the right gear (glass and loupe) and not shooting wider than f/11 you will achieve good precision with ground glass.

I recommend a view camera solution like the Linhof Techno I have myself (best landscape camera much thanks to it's compactness, but also rather expensive, but if you find one second hand it can be okay), or Arca-Swiss MF-two or F-Universalis. The Cambo Actus is not so good choice unless you get a CMOS back as the Actus lacks sliding back option. Why do I recommend a view camera? You get about the same type of creative options concerning lens movements as traditional large format, lenses are a lot cheaper as you get them on lens boards, and you have tilt and swing on *all* lenses as it's built into the camera body not an expensive mount. The disadvantages is ground glass focusing and somewhat lower precision (due to more flexible movements), I don't think view cameras should be shot at wider apertures than f/11 as shorter depth of fields both make ground glass focusing overly difficult and also can make precision limitations in the systems visible.

Note that ground glass focusing is not for everyone, if you have problems with your vision it may be impossible to get the good precision I talk about. If that's the case a pancake camera with high precision focusing rings and a laser distance meter can be better. If you're all about sharpness and less about movements a pancake camera is probably also a better choice. You won't get bad sharpness with a view camera but focusing precision is a bit more, well, relaxed.

I think the best way to approach tech cam landscape photography is to think that you want to shoot large format but not mess with film, then you will be most pleased with what you get from a Linhof Techno or similar camera with a second hand back at 33-39 megapixels.

If you're only into MF for image quality and think the rest is just cumbersome and a bit too costly I think you will not be in for long. We've not seen the end of quality improvements of the 135 systems. What you won't get though is the same type of flexibility concerning movements at such wide range of focal lengths as you can get in a tech cam. If you become a bit romantic about old-school mechanical things (like I do) you will also get some extra joy out of the precision mechanical instruments tech cams are. That helps.

I've also noted that there are different type of personalities when it comes to MFD. You have the engineering type like myself that don't see MFD as something inherently special and superior but rather look at the technical aspects of image quality and says it is what it is, which is that it's worse in many aspects than the best CMOS sensors. Then you have those that see special properties in the format size and the fact that it's a CCD and very much dislike anything that looks "DSLR-like", I'm not going to say that it's not real, but I and many others don't have eyes for that and don't see it. How you are in that regard will also affect how pleased you will be with MFD. That said I am very pleased with my MFD despite that I find a little bit better image quality in a D810 in some aspects, so it depends on what your expectations are too. I think that there is such a thing as "good enough" image quality, and if you aim there you don't need to pay a fortune for you digital back. If dynamic range is one of your primary concerns when you make your pictures then there's a warning sign to be raised, you probably won't be pleased with anything but CMOS, and then Pentax 645Z is a good choice, you won't get movements though.

You won't get the same reach as your 200mm F/4 though. The longest lens you can get in the digital lens range is 210mm, which is a bit hard to get now since it's been discontinued due to low sales. If you compromise quality a bit you can get some analog tele lenses which are a bit longer. My longest is 180mm, which corresponds to about 135mm on full-frame 135. So if very long lenses is central to your creative photography tech cam can disappoint.

Do make sure that you have your image clear on the wide angle end before you invest. It's there you have the compatibility issues and potential very high costs buried. SK28 and SK35 is very good price/performance and movement flexibility compared to alternatives, but when shifted only play well with larger pixel sensors (39 or less) and the Kodak 50 megapixel sensor found only in Hasseblad backs. Otherwise you need the more expensive Rodenstock Digaron lenses on the wide end.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: jerome_m on October 15, 2014, 02:32:21 am
I currently use a D600 with a 24mm PC-E lens for most of my landscape photography

And in what advantages do you expect from a MF camera? What are the features you want to get? What are, for you, the limitations of your present system?
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 15, 2014, 02:45:25 am
And in what advantages do you expect from a MF camera? What are the features you want to get? What are, for you, the limitations of your present system?

That's really good questions, and to give an example I can say what features I wanted to get when I got into MFD in 2012. I loved using tilt-shift lenses but lacked focal lengths and some of the available tilt-shift lenses weren't that good optically either. The Canon TS-E 24II I liked (not the least due to its flexible movement design with tilt in any direction and shift decoupled and also in any direction), but not the 45 and the 90 was sharp but limited in movements, the 17 was nice but wider than I needed. And I missed a 35. With Sony A7r and adapters the situation is a little bit better. You can get a 35mm Contax with good optical quality, but then you only have shift not tilt. So 135 is still limited if you want to work "large format way".

I also looked into the future of image quality and thought that the 135 format is too small to make sharp optics for sensors at say 100 megapixels. With the Otus I think I'm proven wrong on that point, but still it's only two lenses and no movements. Wide angle movements may have more precision issues on 135 by the way due to the smaller format and lighter weight mechanics.

That is I got MFD because I wanted to use a view camera and view camera lenses. If tech cameras did not exist and the only options would have been Hassy H or Phase One M I would have stayed with 135. Today I would probably be a bit tempted by the Pentax 645Z because of pricing, if price is reasonable I don't need as much convincing, having a bit more resolving power than the best 135 systems could be enough in that case.

To be fair one reason I got MFD view cam is also because I like to have something a bit different, it's nice to handle this old school precision instrument. One thing can be said for sure, tech cam is very different from a DSLR, 135 or MF.

For me pricing was (and is) very important. Second hand made my MF journey both possible and reasonable. To me it's not only about what I can afford, it's also what I think is reasonable. While tech cam lenses from the Digitar range is expensive compared to consumer DSLR lenses, they are not crazy expensive when bought on lens board. My most expensive tech cam lens, the SK60XL which is the only lens I've bought new so far, is by the way cheaper than an Otus lens, and cheaper than most MF DSLR lenses of course. I have seven lenses to my Techno, all supporting movements, all having very high optical quality, and I think I've paid somewhere in the range $10k in total for all seven lenses. The only bad deal I've made economically is the Aptus back which I had to send in for a costly repair and lost about $4k in repair cost, but on the whole you can afford a setback or two and it will still be a lot cheaper than buying stuff new.

To buy second hand you need patience though, it can take several months before you see a sale of the component you want to have. Building up a system thus takes time, and if you want something of the latest stuff you may need to buy that new, as in the case of the SK60XL for me. These long waits can be okay when you're an amateur like me though, and you can get a quite cost effective system in the end. I think my system is comparable to what a high end 135 system would cost if you bought everything new, and it's cheaper than if I my main photography interest would have been bird photography and I was into super teles.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: jerome_m on October 15, 2014, 03:46:20 am
That's really good questions, and to give an example I can say what features I wanted to get when I got into MFD in 2012. I loved using tilt-shift lenses but lacked focal lengths and some of the available tilt-shift lenses weren't that good optically either. The Canon TS-E 24II I liked (not the least due to its flexible movement design with tilt in any direction and shift decoupled and also in any direction), but not the 45 and the 90 was sharp but limited in movements, the 17 was nice but wider than I needed. And I missed a 35. With Sony A7r and adapters the situation is a little bit better. You can get a 35mm Contax with good optical quality, but then you only have shift not tilt. So 135 is still limited if you want to work "large format way".

I also looked into the future of image quality and thought that the 135 format is too small to make sharp optics for sensors at say 100 megapixels. With the Otus I think I'm proven wrong on that point, but still it's only two lenses and no movements. Wide angle movements may have more precision issues on 135 by the way due to the smaller format and lighter weight mechanics.

That is I got MFD because I wanted to use a view camera and view camera lenses. If tech cameras did not exist and the only options would have been Hassy H or Phase One M I would have stayed with 135. Today I would probably be a bit tempted by the Pentax 645Z because of pricing, if price is reasonable I don't need as much convincing, having a bit more resolving power than the best 135 systems could be enough in that case.

To be fair one reason I got MFD view cam is also because I like to have something a bit different, it's nice to handle this old school precision instrument. One thing can be said for sure, tech cam is very different from a DSLR, 135 or MF.

For me pricing was (and is) very important. Second hand made my MF journey both possible and reasonable. To me it's not only about what I can afford, it's also what I think is reasonable. While tech cam lenses from the Digitar range is expensive compared to consumer DSLR lenses, they are not crazy expensive when bought on lens board. My most expensive tech cam lens, the SK60XL which is the only lens I've bought new so far, is by the way cheaper than an Otus lens, and cheaper than most MF DSLR lenses of course. I have seven lenses to my Techno, all supporting movements, all having very high optical quality, and I think I've paid somewhere in the range $10k in total for all seven lenses. The only bad deal I've made economically is the Aptus back which I had to send in for a costly repair and lost about $4k in repair cost, but on the whole you can afford a setback or two and it will still be a lot cheaper than buying stuff new.

To buy second hand you need patience though, it can take several months before you see a sale of the component you want to have. Building up a system thus takes time, and if you want something of the latest stuff you may need to buy that new, as in the case of the SK60XL for me. These long waits can be okay when you're an amateur like me though, and you can get a quite cost effective system in the end. I think my system is comparable to what a high end 135 system would cost if you bought everything new, and it's cheaper than if I my main photography interest would have been bird photography and I was into super teles.


But what about the pictures? From your text, I understand what features you like to have in a camera, but I don't see how it translates into the pictures you make.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: synn on October 15, 2014, 04:32:45 am
Hello,

As someone who made the plunge into medium format a year ago, I might be able to give some inputs here.

Image quality:

I use my gear to make art, first and foremost. while I do read up some lab tests, I don't let that dictate what I shoot with and how. The tools I use are the ones that help me achieve my creative vision best and in that regard, I do consider MF gear to deliver well. Even with much older backs, you will see excellent image quality, when used within the conditions they are good at. The colors are better and the images have a lunch that the clinically boring (IMO) 135 files do not have. Yes, the latter can be post processed heavily to get closer, but MF files look "Right" out of the box. Mamiyaleaf has sample RAWs on their site and Hasselblad has some Tiffs. Do download and try working on them to get a feel (I recommend C1P for Leaf files).

Here's a simple example to show you the difference you can expect from a digital back and a top of the line DSLR. Note that the greens and yellows are much more distinct in the MF file while in the 135 file, they kinda blend in together.

Credo:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3682/11618187855_84956816b3_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/iGEftH)Night scene 1 - Credo 40 (https://flic.kr/p/iGEftH) by Sandeep Murali (https://www.flickr.com/people/36589851@N02/), on Flickr

D800:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2875/11618149655_515a203780_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/iGE486)Night scene 1 - D800 (https://flic.kr/p/iGE486) by Sandeep Murali (https://www.flickr.com/people/36589851@N02/), on Flickr

A modern back like the credo will let you do 1 minute exposures at normal temperatures and maybe a bit more in colder ones. Here's a 1 minute shot that was made on a tropical morning (32 degree C).

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5597/15446743706_701bee083e_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pwYAKm)Walk with me... (https://flic.kr/p/pwYAKm) by Sandeep Murali (https://www.flickr.com/people/36589851@N02/), on Flickr

Versatility:

Medium format is at the same time, versatile and non versatile. Versatile because if you get a modular system like the Phamiyas or the Blads, you are able to put together just the bits you want. You can invest in a back plus DSLR-type body initially and then add the technical cam solution as and when you have budget. The pentax Z is less of an upfront investment, but it lacks that flexibility.

They are non versatile because they will never be that "Use for everything" system that a 135 kit is. AF is slower and basic, Live view is non existent in older backs untethered and limited in everything but the new CMOS backs (Although still usable. If old man Joe Cornish can use it to make amazing images on location, it's good enough for us lesser beings, right? :) ) and in general, everything is heavier. So please keep this in mind when you take the plunge. Keeping a smaller mirrorless/ 135 system to supplement the MF kit for those situations is highly recommended. I always pack the D800 and a couple of lenses with my MF kit for those times. (Very long exposures, ultra wide angles etc). I personally chose the Credo 40 system as it seemed worth the extra money over the previous generation because of the great display, Live view and better user experience. It is also offered at a great price currently.

Which one to go for?

Unfortunately, I cannot answer this for you. It all depends on your specific needs and budget.  In general, if you cannot invest  <USD 10k at the very least, I recommend not taking the MF plunge. You will regret it.
At the bottom end, the Leaf Aptus backs are definitely the best VFM as they are priced rather well, have (Very basic) untethered Liveview that can be used for focus confirmation and can take a bigger battery for field use. Also, I am a fan of Leaf colors. A good dealer should be able to hook you up with an older back and a DF+ body (Do not get any Mamiya bodies before the DF+. They all have their limitations). There's a thread on getDPI forums called "Fat pixel magic" or something that has some amazing images from the 22MP Aptus back.

Another reason I went with the Mamiyaleaf system is because there are several older lenses for it that are perfectly good even to this day. Here's a sample from the 35mm lens that I got for a few hundred bucks online.

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3803/12266936635_8e7d38bdd2_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/jFZfTv)Mamiya 35mm f/3.5 test (https://flic.kr/p/jFZfTv) by Sandeep Murali (https://www.flickr.com/people/36589851@N02/), on Flickr

Someone more familiar with the Hasselblad ecosystem  will be able to give you more info on them. In short, lenses are expensive, but worth it (And also a better lens spread than Phamiya), anything after H2 is a closed system, so you won't be able to use a different back on those bodies except  the H4x/ H5x that can take third party backs and Truefocus is great for handheld shooting.

Tech cam use:

Can't help you much there, except for the fact that I am also looking at getting into the tech cam arena in a while, probably with an Arca RM3Di. Plan wisely and you should be able to find a modular system that fits into your current kit. For example, something like the Alpa FPS is a big investment initially, but it will enable you to use your current Nikkors with your new medium format back. That by itself will help you save some investment upfront. Then, as and when you're ready to invest more, you can get proper large format lenses and so on.

YMMV

(p.s. Just right click any of the above images and choose "View image" to see them at full res. Please do not use them elsewhere without my consent).
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 15, 2014, 06:29:28 am
But what about the pictures? From your text, I understand what features you like to have in a camera, but I don't see how it translates into the pictures you make.

Not sure I understand your question. Creating landscape images with a camera capable of movements is a well-established genre. The mentioned Joe Cornish is one example, David Ward is another excellent example. Ansel Adams has written classic books about it. As Wolven use a PC-E and like the work of Joe Cornish I assume he know the possibilities.

The movement you use most often is rise and fall, to image trees etc upright. Tilt is also common for increasing depth of field. Sideways shift is less common (unless you're a panorama stitcher), but use it from time to time, especially if there's architecture of some sort in the image, for example you may want a strict head-on perspective of some geometric element but have it to the side. A genre view camera is more suited at than a pancake camera is closeups, in landscape often ground patches, as there you really want to be using the ground glass and often both tilt and swing simultaneously, although you can often get away with only tilt. I like to have the flexibility though.

If the reason you ask is because you want a sample of my own work I must say I'm not so fond of posting that. I'm still very much in a study phase artistically and I still have an ambition to become quite good. I'd like to publish when I reach a level and stability in my style which I feel confident with, but I'm not there yet. As said I bought my system in 2012, only two years of training, mostly weekends as I have a daytime job. Developing artistically takes time. Developing technically goes really fast in the days of digital.

That said here's a couple of basic example of movements in action if someone happens to not know how they're used:

ex1-tilt: ground patch in sharp focus thanks to tilt
ex2-rise: trees imaged upright thanks to rise (actually fall of back)
ex3-fall: special example showing both long lens used (180mm) and fall.
ex4-shift-left: example of when sideways shift is used to keep the perspective of the roof (about) centered over the window

Despite being an amateur at an early stage I might be an interesting example stylistically as I don't really do much of the near-far type of open compositions, but more of intimate shots and use often longer focal lengths.  An advantage of the flexibility of a camera like the Techno is that you really don't need to know for sure where you will go stylistically, as it's a very flexible camera within tech camera space. You won't do action photography with this one...

Your taste in perspectives should match what the system can do well too. With a tripod mounted tech cam you won't do much of slanted perspectives close to the ground with short depth of field and cool lens flares, you shoot mostly at close to normal standing height with and make strict perspectives and rarely work so much with depth of field in any other way than trying to get everything to seem in focus.

I've seen lots of great nature photography made with 135 cameras which allows for different viewpoints, and all sorts of images you can do when you can shoot hand-held with short shutter speeds. You lose that. I've turned that into an advantage, a camera that is good at certain style of photography can make you concentrate more on that style and develop more. In a way I feel more relaxed and focused by having limits. Some take this further and use only one or two lenses. Personally I don't like that particular type of limiting but it works for some.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: synn on October 15, 2014, 06:42:57 am
I like the first image. Nice and simple.
Posting images for C&C is part of growing as an artist. Don't hide them away until you are confident that you've reached a pinnacle because that day will never come. We are all constantly evolving as artists.  :)
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 15, 2014, 07:10:22 am
I like the first image. Nice and simple.
Posting images for C&C is part of growing as an artist. Don't hide them away until you are confident that you've reached a pinnacle because that day will never come. We are all constantly evolving as artists.  :)

I do show my images, just not so much on the Internet... it's true that we all are developing artists and indeed must be (if one have an artistic ambition that is, which you don't must have...), but I think it's also true that we're a little bit too impatient today. Back in the days it was nothing strange to shoot for 10 years before going truly public. The images were shown and discussed before that of course, but more in private.

The most important thing for me as an amateur is to enjoy what I'm doing, today I feel I develop at a decent pace with my own self-criticism and looking at other photographers' work. At some point I need to bring external criticism in but it's not so easy to get good quality. What I would want is a mentor that understands where I'm going and how I can develop within that envelope; on the Internet what you typically get is people that try to convince you into shooting images that look more like their own :)
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 15, 2014, 07:14:21 am
Many thanks Bernard for your prompt response. I did read Michael's initial and in-depth review of the 645z but to me the only significant advantage I see with going that route is the larger sensor. Everything else is available in the 35 mm world these days.

As an amateur photographer, my D600 I expect will continue to serve me well and will always have a place in my bag for the solutions it provides (namely the 200mm for the macro and the occasional wildlife / action shot). But my heart very much belongs to landscape photography and pursuing it on a platform that is (for all means and purposes to me) infinitely flexible.

My lust (can't put it any other way) for a technical camera comes from that thought.

Also, thanks for pointing out the lack of Live View as I find it quite useful and sometimes essential even in my full frame photography during tilting. Sharpness is quite important to me and although I don't wear glasses, I wouldn't trust my own eyes to confirm focus on a non-Live View setup.

Please advise if there are other such cheaper second-hand alternative backs that do provide un-tethered live view in the field.

Thanks and regards.

My personal view is that the 645Z is the best option for landscape if you intend to use your back on an SLR camera.

Michael seems to agree.

Things get a bit more complicated if you consider technical cameras and there is IMHO, no perfect solution. CCD based cameras work better with movements but lack usable live view which can be a problem for critical focusing. The recent Sony sensor based cameras have live view, but they don't seem to work that well with movements on tech cameras.

All in all, a second hand P45+ may be your best bet for technical camera usage at a reasonnable price point if the lack of live view isn't a show stopper.

Cheers,
Bernard

Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 15, 2014, 07:22:49 am
Please advise if there are other such cheaper second-hand alternative backs that do provide un-tethered live view in the field.

The IQ and Credo series CCD backs do have some sort of live view, but it's very limited in what it can do (it works only in a narrow light condition, is slow, heats up the sensor, drains battery etc). I know some actually use it in the field but most seem to ignore it.

Ground glass focusing, or high precision focusing rings, or getting a CMOS back are more realistic alternatives. The CFV-50c is by far the cheapest CMOS digital back and live view is coming to it, we don't know yet how good quality it's going to be though so I should wait and see if you go down that path, and you really need to think long and hard for the tech wides with that sensor as compatibility ain't that good.

I use ground glass and I think it's perfectly workable, also for advanced tilting. In a way it's faster to use ground glass when tilting than live view as you can move around very fast with the loupe when you need to do back-and-forth refinements. Coming from live view the dim ground glass on wide angles will be a bit of a shock though.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 15, 2014, 07:43:23 am
Hi,

My impression is that the most viable MFD option having live view is the new CFV-50C sensor from Hasselblad, the options from Leaf (Credo 50) and Phase One IQ-150/250 are more expensive but may offer better LV.

The Pentax 645Z has all of that at a much lower price and even includes a camera.

It has been suggested to find out your needs and wants. Why do you want an MFD?

- If you want more resolution and DR there will be more options based on full frame 135 pretty soon.
- If you want a larger sensor, the best option may be a second hand CCD sensor, like P45+ or P65+.
- You perhaps need/want a technical camera

Write down on a piece of paper what you want and also what you are willing to pay, than try to find the stuff that matches your needs at a price you can afford.

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/76-my-medium-format-digital-journey
http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/77-two-months-of-mfd-looking-back
http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/80-my-mfd-journey-summing-up

Actually, I feel it is a time for a fourth instalment, having shot MFD for 16 months. I am quite happy with my MF kit, and it is not probable I am selling it off any soon.

But, right now I am waiting for a decent A series Sony with 46-54MP, a first Electronic First Curtain and a powerful battery and a few Zeiss Loxia lenses.

Best regards
Erik

Many thanks Bernard for your prompt response. I did read Michael's initial and in-depth review of the 645z but to me the only significant advantage I see with going that route is the larger sensor. Everything else is available in the 35 mm world these days.

As an amateur photographer, my D600 I expect will continue to serve me well and will always have a place in my bag for the solutions it provides (namely the 200mm for the macro and the occasional wildlife / action shot). But my heart very much belongs to landscape photography and pursuing it on a platform that is (for all means and purposes to me) infinitely flexible.

My lust (can't put it any other way) for a technical camera comes from that thought.

Also, thanks for pointing out the lack of Live View as I find it quite useful and sometimes essential even in my full frame photography during tilting. Sharpness is quite important to me and although I don't wear glasses, I wouldn't trust my own eyes to confirm focus on a non-Live View setup.

Please advise if there are other such cheaper second-hand alternative backs that do provide un-tethered live view in the field.

Thanks and regards.

Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 15, 2014, 08:01:22 am
Reading your post makes me feel as if you have telepathically read my mind and have picked out all the hovering questions to be answered one after another. I'm greatly indebted to you for this comprehensive reply!! I'll try to reply inline where I feel its required in a different font colour.

You sound to be in a similar situation like I was in 2012 when I bought a second hand MFD Linhof Techno system.

My Linhof Techno review could be helpful to you (which talk about tech cams in more generic terms too not only the Techno): http://www.ludd.ltu.se/~torger/photography/linhof-techno-review.html

Reading that article twice so far I have barely scratched the surface. It is brilliant in its content and coverage, I'll keep at it until I understand the concepts a bit better

If you get into MF with the right expectations it can be wonderful, but don't buy too much into the hype. Much of the hype is about studio work, out of focus look and skin tones, something you have little use of in landscape. In landscape much of the hype is related to the resolving power of the most expensive tech cam lenses on the highest resolution backs, something you and I doesn't afford.

That said, if you want a DSLR experience there's the 645Z, there you have the CMOS technology and all features you find in a 135 DSLR, and for being MF it's affordable and there's still a few second hand lenses to be had.

After having read your replies I am quite convinced that another DSLR will not do, so it is a technical camera for me. Atleast one decision is out of the way

I think it was very worthwhile to go the tech cam way, but then you need to compromise a bit concerning digital back. You can get a Hasselblad CFV-50c with CMOS and liveview, buying it in Japan it's $10k, but wide angles will be an issue as documented elsewhere. If you shoot wide angle it's better with a CCD. P45+ is popular due to its well-documented reliability and long exposure, but is also one of the most expensive second hand backs. I got myself a Leaf Aptus 75 and still today it's very good price/performance (for being MFD), and you can do focus check unlike on the P45+ (most older backs render 100% view so fuzzy you can't know for sure it's sharp or not).

 How does the focus check on the Leaf Aptus 75 work?

Compared to a D810 you will miss mainly a few things with the CCD backs, 1) they're more noisy, 2) you don't have (any good/usable) live view, 3) most don't have long exposure. Using grad filters is a good idea, and having a post-processing style that's not too much grunge HDR-like, ie don't push shadows 4 stops. If you have a bit more old-school processing you'll find also the older CCD backs to have good DR, a back from 2004 still has better DR than a recent Canon, and noise is well-behaved no patterns and such. Concerning long exposure there are a few exceptions like the P25+ and P45+, but most are limited to about 30 seconds, and at 30 seconds they're quite noisy if the weather is warm. I use my Aptus 75 up to its 30 second limit quite often but shoot often in cold weather too.

Ok, those are very good points. And they have helped me narrow my selection criteria a little:
1. I can skip on not having Live View if other focusing methods are available (More on this later)
2. But, I cannot compromise on long exposure for artistic reasons. The digital back must be capable of doing long exposures. This has brought my interest back to the P45+ and now the P25+
3. I usually shoot at base ISO anyway so an acceptable high ISO performance is not necessary

Concerning lacking the live view there are two methods, A) ground glass, B) high precision focusing rings on the pancake cameras. In my review I look into ground glass focusing extensively, and yes with training, the right gear (glass and loupe) and not shooting wider than f/11 you will achieve good precision with ground glass.

I recommend a view camera solution like the Linhof Techno I have myself (best landscape camera much thanks to it's compactness, but also rather expensive, but if you find one second hand it can be okay), or Arca-Swiss MF-two or F-Universalis. The Cambo Actus is not so good choice unless you get a CMOS back as the Actus lacks sliding back option. Why do I recommend a view camera? You get about the same type of creative options concerning lens movements as traditional large format, lenses are a lot cheaper as you get them on lens boards, and you have tilt and swing on *all* lenses as it's built into the camera body not an expensive mount. The disadvantages is ground glass focusing and somewhat lower precision (due to more flexible movements), I don't think view cameras should be shot at wider apertures than f/11 as shorter depth of fields both make ground glass focusing overly difficult and also can make precision limitations in the systems visible.

Note that ground glass focusing is not for everyone, if you have problems with your vision it may be impossible to get the good precision I talk about. If that's the case a pancake camera with high precision focusing rings and a laser distance meter can be better. If you're all about sharpness and less about movements a pancake camera is probably also a better choice. You won't get bad sharpness with a view camera but focusing precision is a bit more, well, relaxed.

I saw this video about how to focus an ALPA http://youtu.be/kzsDJacjupw?list=UULjwCkIP4gT1jkMzluq61jg (http://youtu.be/kzsDJacjupw?list=UULjwCkIP4gT1jkMzluq61jg) so a precision focusing ring with a laser distance meter might be the way for me

I think the best way to approach tech cam landscape photography is to think that you want to shoot large format but not mess with film, then you will be most pleased with what you get from a Linhof Techno or similar camera with a second hand back at 33-39 megapixels.

If you're only into MF for image quality and think the rest is just cumbersome and a bit too costly I think you will not be in for long. We've not seen the end of quality improvements of the 135 systems. What you won't get though is the same type of flexibility concerning movements at such wide range of focal lengths as you can get in a tech cam. If you become a bit romantic about old-school mechanical things (like I do) you will also get some extra joy out of the precision mechanical instruments tech cams are. That helps.

While image quality is a concern, I am intent on moving toward medium format for exactly how you put it "Shoot large format but not mess with film". It is the flexibility that having a bellows based system allows that I'm after. Along with the ability to be able to move the sensor plane. And I'm an engineer by day as well, so all fine mechanical things bring joy in their own way. My other interest is chronometers but that's another forum :)

I've also noted that there are different type of personalities when it comes to MFD. You have the engineering type like myself that don't see MFD as something inherently special and superior but rather look at the technical aspects of image quality and says it is what it is, which is that it's worse in many aspects than the best CMOS sensors. Then you have those that see special properties in the format size and the fact that it's a CCD and very much dislike anything that looks "DSLR-like", I'm not going to say that it's not real, but I and many others don't have eyes for that and don't see it. How you are in that regard will also affect how pleased you will be with MFD. That said I am very pleased with my MFD despite that I find a little bit better image quality in a D810 in some aspects, so it depends on what your expectations are too. I think that there is such a thing as "good enough" image quality, and if you aim there you don't need to pay a fortune for you digital back. If dynamic range is one of your primary concerns when you make your pictures then there's a warning sign to be raised, you probably won't be pleased with anything but CMOS, and then Pentax 645Z is a good choice, you won't get movements though.

I expect my entry into medium format will be a deliberate and slow process primarily due to the costs involved but also due to my lack of knowledge.

You won't get the same reach as your 200mm F/4 though. The longest lens you can get in the digital lens range is 210mm, which is a bit hard to get now since it's been discontinued due to low sales. If you compromise quality a bit you can get some analog tele lenses which are a bit longer. My longest is 180mm, which corresponds to about 135mm on full-frame 135. So if very long lenses is central to your creative photography tech cam can disappoint.

My requirement is quite the opposite. I am hoping to find very wide lenses to use with in a technical camera. I will retain my DSLR for all other photographic needs

Do make sure that you have your image clear on the wide angle end before you invest. It's there you have the compatibility issues and potential very high costs buried. SK28 and SK35 is very good price/performance and movement flexibility compared to alternatives, but when shifted only play well with larger pixel sensors (39 or less) and the Kodak 50 megapixel sensor found only in Hasseblad backs. Otherwise you need the more expensive Rodenstock Digaron lenses on the wide end.

 Could you please provide me with some links to view these SK28 and SK35?

Also how important is the digital sensor's size when it comes to using them in technical cameras like the Linhof Techno? I am not too worried about the megapixel count but I think the sensor size will surely play a part besides the focal length calculation

Thanks again for your time.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: jerome_m on October 15, 2014, 08:02:19 am
Not sure I understand your question. Creating landscape images with a camera capable of movements is a well-established genre. The mentioned Joe Cornish is one example, David Ward is another excellent example. Ansel Adams has written classic books about it. As Wolven use a PC-E and like the work of Joe Cornish I assume he know the possibilities.

The movement you use most often is rise and fall, to image trees etc upright. Tilt is also common for increasing depth of field. Sideways shift is less common (unless you're a panorama stitcher), but use it from time to time, especially if there's architecture of some sort in the image, for example you may want a strict head-on perspective of some geometric element but have it to the side. A genre view camera is more suited at than a pancake camera is closeups, in landscape often ground patches, as there you really want to be using the ground glass and often both tilt and swing simultaneously, although you can often get away with only tilt. I like to have the flexibility though.

If the reason you ask is because you want a sample of my own work I must say I'm not so fond of posting that. I'm still very much in a study phase artistically and I still have an ambition to become quite good. I'd like to publish when I reach a level and stability in my style which I feel confident with, but I'm not there yet. As said I bought my system in 2012, only two years of training, mostly weekends as I have a daytime job. Developing artistically takes time. Developing technically goes really fast in the days of digital.

That said here's a couple of basic example of movements in action if someone happens to not know how they're used:

ex1-tilt: ground patch in sharp focus thanks to tilt
ex2-rise: trees imaged upright thanks to rise (actually fall of back)
ex3-fall: special example showing both long lens used (180mm) and fall.
ex4-shift-left: example of when sideways shift is used to keep the perspective of the roof (about) centered over the window

Despite being an amateur at an early stage I might be an interesting example stylistically as I don't really do much of the near-far type of open compositions, but more of intimate shots and use often longer focal lengths.  An advantage of the flexibility of a camera like the Techno is that you really don't need to know for sure where you will go stylistically, as it's a very flexible camera within tech camera space. You won't do action photography with this one...

Your taste in perspectives should match what the system can do well too. With a tripod mounted tech cam you won't do much of slanted perspectives close to the ground with short depth of field and cool lens flares, you shoot mostly at close to normal standing height with and make strict perspectives and rarely work so much with depth of field in any other way than trying to get everything to seem in focus.

I've seen lots of great nature photography made with 135 cameras which allows for different viewpoints, and all sorts of images you can do when you can shoot hand-held with short shutter speeds. You lose that. I've turned that into an advantage, a camera that is good at certain style of photography can make you concentrate more on that style and develop more. In a way I feel more relaxed and focused by having limits. Some take this further and use only one or two lenses. Personally I don't like that particular type of limiting but it works for some.

"I want to take landscape pictures in the style of Joe Cornish or David Ward and I need tilt for increasing depth of field and shift for correct perspective on upright trees" would have been a sufficient answer. What I was trying to do is to get the o.p. to express what features of a technical camera he used and how he expected them to influence his final pictures.

Even if one restricts the subject to landscape, there can be various pictorial reasons for choosing a particular camera. I'll give some examples:
-one can indeed want perspective control, so that trees look vertical
-one can want extremely large prints and need the necessary resolution
-one can want to play with limited depth of field and want a particular rendering of the out of focus elements
-one can want extreme focal lengths (very short of very long) and the associated perspective
-etc... the list is not limitative.

I think that this thread would be more useful if the o.p. would tell us what are his reasons, that's all.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: jerome_m on October 15, 2014, 08:09:06 am
My requirement is quite the opposite. I am hoping to find very wide lenses to use with in a technical camera.

Be aware that very wide lenses often cause color shifts and vignetting on technical cameras. They can be made to work, but a large part of this forum is devoted to people asking questions on how to make them work...  ::)


Quote
Could you please provide me with some links to view these SK28 and SK35?

http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/photo-imaging/produktbereiche/fotoobjektive/produkte/fachkamera-objektive/digitale-objektive/apo-digitar-xl/ (http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/photo-imaging/produktbereiche/fotoobjektive/produkte/fachkamera-objektive/digitale-objektive/apo-digitar-xl/). This is the manufacturer site (in German).

Quote
Also how important is the digital sensor's size when it comes to using them in technical cameras like the Linhof Techno?

Be aware that smaller MF sensors usually incorporate micro-lenses and that causes problem with wide angle lenses designed for technical cameras.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 15, 2014, 08:22:51 am
And in what advantages do you expect from a MF camera? What are the features you want to get? What are, for you, the limitations of your present system?

Hello Jerome,

I believe torger covered most of what I want from medium format but I will answer your specific question.

I have viewed several of Joe's work and videos to have an appreciation of what the movements of a technical camera can do for photographs.

While the 24mm PC-E Nikkor is an excellent lens, you may already know that out of the box it comes with the tilt and shift movements perpendicular to each other. To have them parallel to each other would require me to send the lens to Nikon who would then make another permanent change to realign the movements. Canon TS lenses have a better implementation but my lens would have to go under the scalpel every time I wish for a different configuration (so the costs would add up). In essence, at any given time I have to make do with one set of functions while a bellows system with an adjustable sensor plane has (in theory) no such limitations.

I'm interested in furthering my photography with less restrictive near-far type of focusing capabilities and felt that while I'm at it, I might as well get into medium format for all the obvious benefits.

To answer your latest post, while large prints are not in my mind, playing around with depth of field and pursuing extremely short focal lengths is certainly on the agenda. Also of interest to me is creating panoramic photographs. While the 24mm PC-E allows me to do that, it quite limited and I feel that there is more to be experienced.

Here are two examples where I have used tilt. I expect to use a technical camera in a similar fashion. The falls was one of my first photographs using a tilted lens and the rock is one of the latest. Apologies if the photographs are not up to scratch but I continue to learn. Any and all criticisms are welcome.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fW6reTFNMFc/UvomfzStEbI/AAAAAAAAL4I/GrD-SUYRBL0/w653-h816-no/Textures.jpg)

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-McNhjgJKc0c/VDpnEuwaUmI/AAAAAAAAR6w/QKhOSJYgK7Q/w545-h816-no/Dawn-at-little-bay.jpg)
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 15, 2014, 08:25:56 am
Let's see, let me try to answer one question at a time;

How does the focus check on the Leaf Aptus 75 work? You shoot the image, wait until the preview appears on the screen and then tap on the screen (it's an old-school touch screen) where you want to zoom to 100%. If it's sharp you'll see it. Beware it's slow though, takes 4 seconds or so to get into 100%. The Aptus-II should be considerably faster. But if you're not in a hurry significant money can be had with essentially the same image quality if you get the older generation.

As you need long exposure you can forget about that. You need a P45+ or P25+. I think you can get decent time out of the older P45 too but they're not so easy to come by. With the P45+ you can see how the composition became, but you can't really see if it got sharp. You don't really need it even with ground glass focusing, but dropping both live view and 100% sharpness check can be a bit tough. I surely like to have it.

With high precision focusing ring on Alpa or Cambo, or using RM3Di system (which is even higher precision, overkill if you ask me) it's easier to be without 100% sharpness check. With Cambo (which is more economical than Alpa) you buy HPF rings from Alpa and attach them to the Cambo lenses.

I make no secret out that I'm a fan of the Schneider Digitar range and also like the SK28 and SK35 wides. But Rodenstock Digaron wides are sharper when shifted and have less compatibility issues with small pixel sensors. The more sharpness-oriented tech cam users generally use Digarons on the wide end.

The SK28 and 35 should be good for the P45+, but if you want to upgrade to higher resolution after that and still be able to shift a lot with them the only real option is Hasselblad 50 megapixel backs (not the CMOS ones, but the one with the Kodak sensor). On the other hand you could sell the lenses then if you need to change to Digarons.

Personally I think the 48x36 / 49x37mm sensor size is optimal for 90mm image circles, it gives a movement range similar to what you are used to from the PC-E, also makes the SK35 like a 24mm on 135 which is a good field of view to work with I think. The full-frame sensors give a bit less movement range. The 44x33 size gives overkill movement range I think, while still a bit small range on 70mm Digaron-S. But that's just my personal opinion. The 48x36 & 49x37mm sizes will probably disappear, it's only Hasselblad that is using it in current products (the Kodak 50 megapixel sensor). In second hand space it will be relevant for many more years though.

I look into samples for you...
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on October 15, 2014, 08:45:15 am
Hi,

The OP is coming from a smaller than medium format experience. He desires more perspective control and higher resolution capabilities, and a wide angle of view capability.  So there will be a learning curve to get a grasp of perspective control, although the upright trees seem to be a rather simple goal (more is possible, like (de-)emphasizing foreground/edge features).

I'm not trying to spoil the fun of exploring (with) a new type of camera, but it makes me wonder if 'Stitching' has ever crossed the OP's mind. Stitching allows to use the same camera one is already accustomed to (or swap with a different camera, even a MF-sensor based one, but with fewer color cast issues because mostly the center of the image circle is used). It allows to adjust perspective in many more sophisticated ways than a view-camera can, it allows to create huge files, it allows to create a huge field-of-view with much higher quality than with a single WA-lens , it can be done at a fraction of the cost of investing in a new platform. The only thing it cannot do directly, is tilt the focus plane like a tilt lens can (unless one stitches with a T/S lens). There may (although rarely) be issues with capturing moving subject matter.

Just adding some food for thought.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 15, 2014, 08:46:19 am
Hello Sandeep,

Thanks a lot for your replies. I have made up my mind to go with a technical camera and not a DSLR format. For reasons you have clearly articulated, I also am of the feeling that I will be left wanting with a less flexible system that the 645z will be in comparison to a technical camera when it comes to movements. Although, it needs to be mentioned that a friend of mine has a Mamiya 645 Pro with a film back which I could borrow anytime I like. I wonder if a P45+ back can be mounted on that with an adapter.

In any case, the Alpa FPS system is quite a bit more than what I'm willing to spend and probably overkill for my requirements at this  stage.

I do intend to keep my full frame system and will continue to shoot with it but I want to slow down my field work with the equivalent of large format photography without messing with slide films and a technical camera would allow me to do that. I just need to narrow down the selection and hope that they come on to the second hand market.

Also, nice pics in your flickr stream by the way.

Cheers.

Hello,

As someone who made the plunge into medium format a year ago, I might be able to give some inputs here.

Image quality:

I use my gear to make art, first and foremost. while I do read up some lab tests, I don't let that dictate what I shoot with and how. The tools I use are the ones that help me achieve my creative vision best and in that regard, I do consider MF gear to deliver well. Even with much older backs, you will see excellent image quality, when used within the conditions they are good at. The colors are better and the images have a lunch that the clinically boring (IMO) 135 files do not have. Yes, the latter can be post processed heavily to get closer, but MF files look "Right" out of the box. Mamiyaleaf has sample RAWs on their site and Hasselblad has some Tiffs. Do download and try working on them to get a feel (I recommend C1P for Leaf files).

Here's a simple example to show you the difference you can expect from a digital back and a top of the line DSLR. Note that the greens and yellows are much more distinct in the MF file while in the 135 file, they kinda blend in together.

Credo:


D800:


A modern back like the credo will let you do 1 minute exposures at normal temperatures and maybe a bit more in colder ones. Here's a 1 minute shot that was made on a tropical morning (32 degree C).


Versatility:

Medium format is at the same time, versatile and non versatile. Versatile because if you get a modular system like the Phamiyas or the Blads, you are able to put together just the bits you want. You can invest in a back plus DSLR-type body initially and then add the technical cam solution as and when you have budget. The pentax Z is less of an upfront investment, but it lacks that flexibility.

They are non versatile because they will never be that "Use for everything" system that a 135 kit is. AF is slower and basic, Live view is non existent in older backs untethered and limited in everything but the new CMOS backs (Although still usable. If old man Joe Cornish can use it to make amazing images on location, it's good enough for us lesser beings, right? :) ) and in general, everything is heavier. So please keep this in mind when you take the plunge. Keeping a smaller mirrorless/ 135 system to supplement the MF kit for those situations is highly recommended. I always pack the D800 and a couple of lenses with my MF kit for those times. (Very long exposures, ultra wide angles etc). I personally chose the Credo 40 system as it seemed worth the extra money over the previous generation because of the great display, Live view and better user experience. It is also offered at a great price currently.

Which one to go for?

Unfortunately, I cannot answer this for you. It all depends on your specific needs and budget.  In general, if you cannot invest  <USD 10k at the very least, I recommend not taking the MF plunge. You will regret it.
At the bottom end, the Leaf Aptus backs are definitely the best VFM as they are priced rather well, have (Very basic) untethered Liveview that can be used for focus confirmation and can take a bigger battery for field use. Also, I am a fan of Leaf colors. A good dealer should be able to hook you up with an older back and a DF+ body (Do not get any Mamiya bodies before the DF+. They all have their limitations). There's a thread on getDPI forums called "Fat pixel magic" or something that has some amazing images from the 22MP Aptus back.

Another reason I went with the Mamiyaleaf system is because there are several older lenses for it that are perfectly good even to this day. Here's a sample from the 35mm lens that I got for a few hundred bucks online.


Someone more familiar with the Hasselblad ecosystem  will be able to give you more info on them. In short, lenses are expensive, but worth it (And also a better lens spread than Phamiya), anything after H2 is a closed system, so you won't be able to use a different back on those bodies except  the H4x/ H5x that can take third party backs and Truefocus is great for handheld shooting.

Tech cam use:

Can't help you much there, except for the fact that I am also looking at getting into the tech cam arena in a while, probably with an Arca RM3Di. Plan wisely and you should be able to find a modular system that fits into your current kit. For example, something like the Alpa FPS is a big investment initially, but it will enable you to use your current Nikkors with your new medium format back. That by itself will help you save some investment upfront. Then, as and when you're ready to invest more, you can get proper large format lenses and so on.

YMMV

(p.s. Just right click any of the above images and choose "View image" to see them at full res. Please do not use them elsewhere without my consent).
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 15, 2014, 08:54:21 am
I look into samples for you...

SK35 samples posted in private message. I can't provide SK28 samples as I don't own that lens. As I write in the PM, if you intend to stay with the P45+ for some time those lenses are good, if you can live with the sharpness falloff in shifting (which is a bit larger than what you find in a Rodenstock Digaron-W 32mm). It should still be considerably better than your PC-E 24.

One thing I forgot to mention about these is that due to their symmetric design and f/5.6 wide open they're a bit of a challenge on the ground glass (vignettes a lot). It's possible and I do it but it's not exactly a great experience of user-friendliness. With HPF ring on an Alpa or Cambo or RM3Di that won't be a problem of course as you don't need to look through the lens to focus.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 15, 2014, 09:03:18 am
Hello Erik,

The CFV-50C looks very attractive but I am certainly not looking at that price bracket. I currently feel that a second hand P45+ might be a good compromise at the cost of Live View. I am in no way chasing resolution and I usually buy to keep things for a very long time but I'm certainly looking for a larger sensor size for its unique FOV and now I am convinced that I need a technical camera.

Thanks for the link, I was after personal stories like that. Please give me some time to cover all the articles thoroughly. There is a good deal to take in.

Also, you bring up a good point about Sony. There are currently rumours that they are coming up with a medium format camera in association with Mamiya. It is supposed to "different" to what is in the market right now and also much cheaper. While they seem to be on the bleeding edge of what is possible with today's technology there are notes that their new medium format entry may be a rangerfinder type.

I watch with interest but I hope they go the route of a modular system that involves a detachable digital back that could be mounted on a technical camera! One can dream eh?  ;)

Hi,

My impression is that the most viable MFD option having live view is the new CFV-50C sensor from Hasselblad, the options from Leaf (Credo 50) and Phase One IQ-150/250 are more expensive but may offer better LV.

The Pentax 645Z has all of that at a much lower price and even includes a camera.

It has been suggested to find out your needs and wants. Why do you want an MFD?

- If you want more resolution and DR there will be more options based on full frame 135 pretty soon.
- If you want a larger sensor, the best option may be a second hand CCD sensor, like P45+ or P65+.
- You perhaps need/want a technical camera

Write down on a piece of paper what you want and also what you are willing to pay, than try to find the stuff that matches your needs at a price you can afford.

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/76-my-medium-format-digital-journey
http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/77-two-months-of-mfd-looking-back
http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/80-my-mfd-journey-summing-up

Actually, I feel it is a time for a fourth instalment, having shot MFD for 16 months. I am quite happy with my MF kit, and it is not probable I am selling it off any soon.

But, right now I am waiting for a decent A series Sony with 46-54MP, a first Electronic First Curtain and a powerful battery and a few Zeiss Loxia lenses.

Best regards
Erik

Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 15, 2014, 09:06:24 am
Thanks Jerome. I'll reply inline with a different colour.

Be aware that very wide lenses often cause color shifts and vignetting on technical cameras. They can be made to work, but a large part of this forum is devoted to people asking questions on how to make them work...  ::)

While that is funny  :) I do not understand the colour shifts. Pardon my lack of knowledge but do you mean chromatic abberations?

http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/photo-imaging/produktbereiche/fotoobjektive/produkte/fachkamera-objektive/digitale-objektive/apo-digitar-xl/ (http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/photo-imaging/produktbereiche/fotoobjektive/produkte/fachkamera-objektive/digitale-objektive/apo-digitar-xl/). This is the manufacturer site (in German).

Be aware that smaller MF sensors usually incorporate micro-lenses and that causes problem with wide angle lenses designed for technical cameras.

Could you please explain this point? I'm lost. Thanks a lot for taking the time

Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 15, 2014, 09:07:10 am
but it makes me wonder if 'Stitching' has ever crossed the OP's mind.

Again a good point, and it's true that stitching you can get extremely high quality with modest equipment. One thing that one should surely consider.  It's true that perspective control can be done with stitching and also with post-processing techniques. Tilt can't really be done but in some cases similar results can be had with dual focus distances in a two-row stitch (been there done that).

I did some stitching with my DSLR and still have the fine stitching head, but I found that stitching did not fit my personality well. I get great satisfaction of the one-shot image and making the image as complete as possible in camera, I just enjoy the tech cam image making workflow better. Sometimes the 4:3 format fits the creative vision and also the focal length, so no cropping is required afterwards and those times feels like hole-in-one. I like that feeling. The LCC shot is a mess it's true, but I can live with that.

I sit so much with the computer at work (and at this forum ;) ) so I also like to minimize post-processing needs. With a tech cam I get home with few images which generally does not require that much post-work and I appreciate that.

I'm starting to sound like a salesperson, I know... anyway, the choice of system is at least as much about how you like to work with the system as about image quality.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 15, 2014, 09:12:19 am
Uh-oh... color cast might come as a bad news to you. You can read under the heading "Dealing with color cast" in my Linhof Techno review.

What it means in practice is that you need to shoot a calibration shot for each shot you make. You can have a library of calibration shots but as movements is not stored in EXIF data it's not very practical.

Color casts is different depending on lens+sensor combination and gets worse when you shift. In really bad cases you get crosstalk (color channel mixing) and you get desaturated color. Picking lens+sensor combination that works according to your expectations is thus very important. For example you can get great results with the SK35 wide angle with an IQ180 digital back, when the lens is centered. But if you shift any substantial amount you will see gross degradation in image quality, while a P45+ works much better with it thanks to a different pixel design.

You will be shooting those calibration shots regardless though....

Here's a good technical explanation of why color cast occurs:
http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/assets/files/documentation/Cast_Effects_in_Wide_Angle_Photography.pdf
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: hexx on October 15, 2014, 09:19:32 am
one thing worth mentioning -> with digital back w/o LV and tech camera you need to always dismount digital back (unless you have sliding thingy) and therefore exposing sensor to elements - keep that in mind (that's why, same as you, my budget options were limited, I decided to pair Leaf Aptus 75S with hasselblad V body - yes, no wide options there)
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 15, 2014, 09:19:43 am
Thanks for this. I guess its going to be a second hand P45+ that I need to talk to my local dealer about. Are there any significant disadvantages of going for the P25+?

Also the digarons seem quite attractive with an unattractive price tag. Like you suggest, may be starting with the SK28 is the way to go with a future purchase of the digaron. The samples look brilliant and I do not intend to share them.

Now all I need to work out is to narrow down the camera to buy.

Let's see, let me try to answer one question at a time;

How does the focus check on the Leaf Aptus 75 work? You shoot the image, wait until the preview appears on the screen and then tap on the screen (it's an old-school touch screen) where you want to zoom to 100%. If it's sharp you'll see it. Beware it's slow though, takes 4 seconds or so to get into 100%. The Aptus-II should be considerably faster. But if you're not in a hurry significant money can be had with essentially the same image quality if you get the older generation.

As you need long exposure you can forget about that. You need a P45+ or P25+. I think you can get decent time out of the older P45 too but they're not so easy to come by. With the P45+ you can see how the composition became, but you can't really see if it got sharp. You don't really need it even with ground glass focusing, but dropping both live view and 100% sharpness check can be a bit tough. I surely like to have it.

With high precision focusing ring on Alpa or Cambo, or using RM3Di system (which is even higher precision, overkill if you ask me) it's easier to be without 100% sharpness check. With Cambo (which is more economical than Alpa) you buy HPF rings from Alpa and attach them to the Cambo lenses.

I make no secret out that I'm a fan of the Schneider Digitar range and also like the SK28 and SK35 wides. But Rodenstock Digaron wides are sharper when shifted and have less compatibility issues with small pixel sensors. The more sharpness-oriented tech cam users generally use Digarons on the wide end.

The SK28 and 35 should be good for the P45+, but if you want to upgrade to higher resolution after that and still be able to shift a lot with them the only real option is Hasselblad 50 megapixel backs (not the CMOS ones, but the one with the Kodak sensor). On the other hand you could sell the lenses then if you need to change to Digarons.

Personally I think the 48x36 / 49x37mm sensor size is optimal for 90mm image circles, it gives a movement range similar to what you are used to from the PC-E, also makes the SK35 like a 24mm on 135 which is a good field of view to work with I think. The full-frame sensors give a bit less movement range. The 44x33 size gives overkill movement range I think, while still a bit small range on 70mm Digaron-S. But that's just my personal opinion. The 48x36 & 49x37mm sizes will probably disappear, it's only Hasselblad that is using it in current products (the Kodak 50 megapixel sensor). In second hand space it will be relevant for many more years though.

I look into samples for you...
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 15, 2014, 09:28:57 am
Hi Bart,

Stitching for panos is something I learnt early and do occasionally with my DSLR. At one stage I did think of getting a RRS pano head with all the bells and whistles but decided against the investment as the thought of medium format was planted in my head.

Cheers.

Hi,

The OP is coming from a smaller than medium format experience. He desires more perspective control and higher resolution capabilities, and a wide angle of view capability.  So there will be a learning curve to get a grasp of perspective control, although the upright trees seem to be a rather simple goal (more is possible, like (de-)emphasizing foreground/edge features).

I'm not trying to spoil the fun of exploring (with) a new type of camera, but it makes me wonder if 'Stitching' has ever crossed the OP's mind. Stitching allows to use the same camera one is already accustomed to (or swap with a different camera, even a MF-sensor based one, but with fewer color cast issues because mostly the center of the image circle is used). It allows to adjust perspective in many more sophisticated ways than a view-camera can, it allows to create huge files, it allows to create a huge field-of-view with much higher quality than with a single WA-lens , it can be done at a fraction of the cost of investing in a new platform. The only thing it cannot do directly, is tilt the focus plane like a tilt lens can (unless one stitches with a T/S lens). There may (although rarely) be issues with capturing moving subject matter.

Just adding some food for thought.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 15, 2014, 09:31:15 am
Ok thanks for that, I have bookmarked it for further reading. I will be focusing on the P45+ or may be a P25+ and which lenses work well with them.

This is exactly what I was after - knowledge and information to research before taking the plunge.

Cheers.

Uh-oh... color cast might come as a bad news to you. You can read under the heading "Dealing with color cast" in my Linhof Techno review.

What it means in practice is that you need to shoot a calibration shot for each shot you make. You can have a library of calibration shots but as movements is not stored in EXIF data it's not very practical.

Color casts is different depending on lens+sensor combination and gets worse when you shift. In really bad cases you get crosstalk (color channel mixing) and you get desaturated color. Picking lens+sensor combination that works according to your expectations is thus very important. For example you can get great results with the SK35 wide angle with an IQ180 digital back, when the lens is centered. But if you shift any substantial amount you will see gross degradation in image quality, while a P45+ works much better with it thanks to a different pixel design.

You will be shooting those calibration shots regardless though....

Here's a good technical explanation of why color cast occurs:
http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/assets/files/documentation/Cast_Effects_in_Wide_Angle_Photography.pdf
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 15, 2014, 09:31:52 am
Thanks for this. I guess its going to be a second hand P45+ that I need to talk to my local dealer about. Are there any significant disadvantages of going for the P25+?

The P25+ is 22 megapixel, I think it's mainly the lower resolution. I'm not sure how much it differs in long exposure capability, need to look that up.

I've shot a bit with a 22 megapixel back and it's fine. With a 22 megapixel back your base aperture will be f/16 (as f/11 don't really look any sharper), and with the 39 megapixel you'll likely prefer f/11. This means that depth of field may seem less challenging on the 22 megapixel back. All these sensors lack antialias filters, so if you're sensitive to moire and aliasing the 22 megapixel can be a bit of a pain as it does make it considerably more likely to show aliasing effects than the 39 megapixel back.

Worth noting is that the P45+ when it was new was Phase One's flagship model and was for many professionals the breaking point where digital finally was better than 4x5" film. So if you want something with similar quality to 4x5" film in terms of printing big, the P45+ is a better option than the P25+.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: synn on October 15, 2014, 09:33:26 am
A Cambo WRS with Schneider lenses and a P25+/P45+ seems like the cheapest entry point for you if you're looking at tech cameras. You may come across a Hasselblad H3D 39 for cheaper, but away from the H-body, the back is more painful to use than a Phase/ Leaf option. Also, upgrade options in the future are more limited.

With a single lens, you're looking at USD 11-14k.

A view camera and lenses would be cheaper, without the precision of a tech camera setup.

...and yes, thanks for the kind words on my pictures.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 15, 2014, 09:34:37 am
Hello Hexx,

I think I will go the route of using a precision focus ring with a laser distance measure (There are good Leica ones for around the $200 mark used) and avoid the need to dismount the back every time.

While budget is certainly a huge overarching concern, I don't want to give in to false economy and buy twice!! Yikes!

Cheers

one thing worth mentioning -> with digital back w/o LV and tech camera you need to always dismount digital back (unless you have sliding thingy) and therefore exposing sensor to elements - keep that in mind (that's why, same as you, my budget options were limited, I decided to pair Leaf Aptus 75S with hasselblad V body - yes, no wide options there)
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 15, 2014, 09:37:58 am
Ok thanks for that, I have bookmarked it for further reading. I will be focusing on the P45+ or may be a P25+ and which lenses work well with them.

The good news is that those backs work good with everything :-).

It's when you get to Dalsa with 6um pixel size and smaller plus the Sony CMOS sensors you need to be more caring when choosing lenses, and you also have some special case in the older backs like the P30+.

All 16, 22, 33 and 39 megapixel backs works fine with everything, and also the CCD-based 50 megapixel backs. If your back has 31, 40, 48, 56, 60 or 80 megapixels or happens to use the new 50 megapixel Sony CMOS you need to be more careful. Why I can say this based on pixel count is that there are quite few sensors used and they are made in certain sizes.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on October 15, 2014, 09:39:11 am
I sit so much with the computer at work (and at this forum ;) ) so I also like to minimize post-processing needs. With a tech cam I get home with few images which generally does not require that much post-work and I appreciate that.

Anders, I hear you ...  However, there's also more opportunity to shoot in the field, not being restricted by one's gear (color cast, heavy lenses, lens not wide enough, or too wide, weather sealing, etc.). The added flexibility to adjust perspective after the fact, in a warmer (or cooler depending on season) and less damp environment, also has its benefits.

Quote
I'm starting to sound like a salesperson, I know... anyway, the choice of system is at least as much about how you like to work with the system as about image quality.

Absolutely. It's good to have choices.

Stitching for panos is something I learnt early and do occasionally with my DSLR. At one stage I did think of getting a RRS pano head with all the bells and whistles but decided against the investment as the thought of medium format was planted in my head.

No problem, just wanted to make sure you were aware.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 15, 2014, 09:46:13 am
I will certainly do more homework on these two backs. Although when you put the P45+ back in that light, it does sound way more attractive! Whatever they are paying you in your current job, Phase One should double it and hire you to be on their sales department!! Hahaha...

I'm going retire for the night and have a lot of reading to do ahead of me. Will continue where I left off in the morning. Cheers.

The P25+ is 22 megapixel, I think it's mainly the lower resolution. I'm not sure how much it differs in long exposure capability, need to look that up.

I've shot a bit with a 22 megapixel back and it's fine. With a 22 megapixel back your base aperture will be f/16 (as f/11 don't really look any sharper), and with the 39 megapixel you'll likely prefer f/11. This means that depth of field may seem less challenging on the 22 megapixel back. All these sensors lack antialias filters, so if you're sensitive to moire and aliasing the 22 megapixel can be a bit of a pain as it does make it considerably more likely to show aliasing effects than the 39 megapixel back.

Worth noting is that the P45+ when it was new was Phase One's flagship model and was for many professionals the breaking point where digital finally was better than 4x5" film. So if you want something with similar quality to 4x5" film in terms of printing big, the P45+ is a better option than the P25+.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 15, 2014, 09:49:16 am
Thanks for that. I have not really researched Cambo. I will read up on them as they seem to be for the budget minded. I think I will steer clear of anything with Hasselblad on it. They seem to always carry a relatively hefty price tag with them.

A Cambo WRS with Schneider lenses and a P25+/P45+ seems like the cheapest entry point for you if you're looking at tech cameras. You may come across a Hasselblad H3D 39 for cheaper, but away from the H-body, the back is more painful to use than a Phase/ Leaf option. Also, upgrade options in the future are more limited.

With a single lens, you're looking at USD 11-14k.

A view camera and lenses would be cheaper, without the precision of a tech camera setup.

...and yes, thanks for the kind words on my pictures.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 15, 2014, 09:51:21 am
One thing to keep in mind with the tech camera route is that you're looking at longer shutter speeds, especially for wides. Not only are you shooting at ISO50 with a small aperture like f/11 or even f/16, you also will be having a center filter. With the SK35 in nice soft landscape light I often have shutter speeds of 1 - 4 seconds. If you're used to shooting large format film this is no strange, but if you come from a small digital format this might feel limiting. In semi-windy weather it can indeed be a bit frustrating, when things seem to be still in 1/4 second but not for 2 seconds which you might need for the shot.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Ken R on October 15, 2014, 12:19:36 pm
Wow, so many replies and info posted!

From reading everything including what the OP has said I would recommend a Arca Swiss RM3Di, a Schneider 35mm Digitar lens (If you can afford a Rodenstock HR-W then that) and a PhaseOne IQ140 or Credo 40 back. (If you can afford a Credo 60 or IQ160 then that)

With the RM3Di you have tilt (or Swing, not both at the same time) with every lens you mount. You also have Back fall/rise and shift (can be combined) with any back.

No need to use adapter / accessories or special tilt/swing lens mounts. Very clean, simple and effective system.

Also the focusing ring is in the body so you can calibrate for infinity for every lens you mount. Just make a few test shots and write down the number. The only issue that the focusing scale on the focusing ring on the body is not in feet or meters it is a generic number scale from 0. With my lenses infinity is generally around 4. Each lens then comes with a distance scale cheat sheet with corresponding numbers. To focus you determine your distance to subject or desired focus point look the matching focus ring number to the distance on the cheat sheet, add your infinity number and then set to the corresponding number (of the sum). Sounds complicated but it isnt. And it is very very precise.

With the PhaseOne IQ backs you can also use focus mask to determine if the image is in perfect focus (and see how focus falls off).

I have used this system for more than a year and the results have been superb.

Keep in mind that with tech lenses and digital backs you need to take an LCC shot (by putting a white translucent plexi 4x4" piece infront of the lens tight and taking a shot) after you make back or lens movements. That part is a pain but you get used to it and no tech camera setup is exempt from it. SLR lenses do not require it though.

Anything less** than the setup I suggested and you might as well use a D810. I would also suggest a D810 instead of a 645Z because the Nikon has a MUCH wider range of lenses available including the tilt shift PC-E lenses. The 645Z has no wide angle tilt shift lenses available. None. Also not all lenses available for the 645z are great. Use a so so lens with the 645z and you might as well be shooting with a lower MP camera. Same thing applies to the Nikon of course but with the Nikon there are EXCELLENT lenses available in the entire focal length range. From extreme wide angle to super tele and everything in between.

With tech cameras focal length availability is limited also but most lenses are much higher quality than SLR lenses and most have large image circles that allow you stitch easily. 

**I am not recommending a PhaseOne P+ back (or Leaf Aptus or Hasselblad back) not because they cant produce high quality results, they sure can! but the crappy lcd screen does not make for a nice untethered shooting experience.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 15, 2014, 02:01:13 pm
Hi,

A very good posting with lots of info! Thanks a lot!

I would mention the A7/A7r as an alternative to the Nikon, lots of options to use almost any lens. The downside may be that the A7r is a first generation camera with some issues, like the famous shutter vibration.

The other thing, about shooting experience on the P45+ and similar backs, I would say that Ken has a very good point. The P45+ screen is quite OK for histograms and blinkies, but not much else. It is sort of OK for slow and deliberate work, but I guess I share Ken's reservations regarding serious work.

Best regards
Erik



Wow, so many replies and info posted!

From reading everything including what the OP has said I would recommend a Arca Swiss RM3Di, a Schneider 35mm Digitar lens (If you can afford a Rodenstock HR-W then that) and a PhaseOne IQ140 or Credo 40 back. (If you can afford a Credo 60 or IQ160 then that)

With the RM3Di you have tilt (or Swing, not both at the same time) with every lens you mount. You also have Back fall/rise and shift (can be combined) with any back.

No need to use adapter / accessories or special tilt/swing lens mounts. Very clean, simple and effective system.

Also the focusing ring is in the body so you can calibrate for infinity for every lens you mount. Just make a few test shots and write down the number. The only issue that the focusing scale on the focusing ring on the body is not in feet or meters it is a generic number scale from 0. With my lenses infinity is generally around 4. Each lens then comes with a distance scale cheat sheet with corresponding numbers. To focus you determine your distance to subject or desired focus point look the matching focus ring number to the distance on the cheat sheet, add your infinity number and then set to the corresponding number (of the sum). Sounds complicated but it isnt. And it is very very precise.

With the PhaseOne IQ backs you can also use focus mask to determine if the image is in perfect focus (and see how focus falls off).

I have used this system for more than a year and the results have been superb.

Keep in mind that with tech lenses and digital backs you need to take an LCC shot (by putting a white translucent plexi 4x4" piece infront of the lens tight and taking a shot) after you make back or lens movements. That part is a pain but you get used to it and no tech camera setup is exempt from it. SLR lenses do not require it though.

Anything less** than the setup I suggested and you might as well use a D810. I would also suggest a D810 instead of a 645Z because the Nikon has a MUCH wider range of lenses available including the tilt shift PC-E lenses. The 645Z has no wide angle tilt shift lenses available. None. Also not all lenses available for the 645z are great. Use a so so lens with the 645z and you might as well be shooting with a lower MP camera. Same thing applies to the Nikon of course but with the Nikon there are EXCELLENT lenses available in the entire focal length range. From extreme wide angle to super tele and everything in between.

With tech cameras focal length availability is limited also but most lenses are much higher quality than SLR lenses and most have large image circles that allow you stitch easily. 

**I am not recommending a PhaseOne P+ back (or Leaf Aptus or Hasselblad back) not because they cant produce high quality results, they sure can! but the crappy lcd screen does not make for a nice untethered shooting experience.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Paul2660 on October 15, 2014, 02:02:56 pm
First and foremost, if you are getting into MF for the first time, find a dealer, and setup a time to shoot with the gear.  MF is much smaller user circle and dealers are critical in the repair and support of the product.  

A few thoughts on the P45+, I owned one and shot it for over 3.5 years

The P45+ is a very old CCD design, it's 39MP and really not much good past iso 200 and in most cases iso 200 is push and pretty noisy.

The P45+ is very very unforgiving with highlights, so you will need to expose to the left to keep your highlights from blowing out, and trust me they will blow 100%

Your shadow recovery on the P45+ is limited, as most times areas in shadow are mushy and not very well detailed.  This is true unless you totally expose for shadows, and of course blow out your highlights, so bracketing is an important consideration for a lot of outdoor shooting

The P45+ will shoot up to 1 hour, however the ambient temp has to be at 69 degrees F or lower, and when it shoots for 1 hour, it has to take a mandatory dark frame exposure immediately afterwards.  In fact all Phase One backs from 1 second out do this, even the IQ250 CMOS.

The LCD on the P45+ is very low resolution and will not offer you much useful feedback in the field in regards to focus checking, as when zooming into 100%, you still can't tell much.  And the time it takes to zoom into 100% is considerable, lots of button pushing and moving the screen around.

There is no USB connectivity for the P45+ only firewire as is true will all P+ backs, so in field tethering has to be done with a full sized laptop.

The P45+ chip is a 1:1 crop, so you won't get a 100% view only 90%, most times not that important but can impact wide angle lenses.

Make sure your P45+ has the latest firmware that Phase One released, and that it's certified to get to 1 hour exposures.  There are possibly still some P45+ backs out there that can't unless Phase One alters their controller card.  I know all about this mine needed this.  

If you use a tech camera, then the P45+ will be a bit more forgiving on shifts as it has no micro lenses and no build in readouts.  The chip appears as one large chip, not a segmented chip, so no tiling will occur.  

If you purchase a P45+, I would purchase it from a dealer and see about a warranty, no P45+ out there should be under any Phase One warranty or Value add, as the Value add's for the P45+ were only 3 years.  If you have to send this back in for repair, trust me, you want to be working with a dealer, not Phase One directly.

If you use your D600 for long exposures, from 1 sec to 1 hour image quality will exceed anything you will get from the P45+.  The P45+ is good and for it's time was amazing, but when it was current, there were no CMOS cameras at 20MP and none CMOS cameras that were out really could come close to the p45+, but that was 6 years ago, almost 7, and CMOS has come a long way.

It's good that you are interested in MF, but I strongly would recommend not spend the 8 or 9K on the P45+, instead, look at the IQ140 or Credo 40.  There have been excellent deals on the IQ140 and Credo 40.  This is the same resolution as the P45+, but a Dalsa chip, which is much more forgiving with highlights, much more.  

Take some time and contact a dealer and see if you can setup a time to stop by and demo some of this gear, as getting your hands on it will help a lot.

Paul
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Ken R on October 15, 2014, 05:55:55 pm
Yes, can't stress enough that working with a dealer is essential IMHO when buying into Medium Format Digital. I use Digital Transitions (NYC). They have a lot's of experience with a very wide range of systems and lens and back combinations so they can answer your questions, provide a demo and once you buy they have really good service and support.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: synn on October 15, 2014, 10:04:07 pm
I agree with Paul and Ken. I've worked on a few files from the P45+ and the files I get from the Credo 40 are much better. In terms of color reproduction, details and dynamic range. Also, ebay bargain hunting is great if you're experienced, but for someone starting out in the world of MF, going through a good dealer is the way to go.

The only calling card (ANd I must admit, it's one hell of a calling card) that the P45+ has is the 1 hour exposure, but as Paul says, the dark frame subtraction cannot be switched off (Unlike in your Nikon where it's optional).

I like long exposure work too and I wish the Credo had 4-5 minutes worth of long exposure capability, but 1 min does work for water, clouds etc. For anything more, I use the D800. Like I said before, these are all tools; one just uses the most appropriate one for the job.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 16, 2014, 02:37:17 am
Do look at P45+ results. As I said earlier there's a lot of subjectivity on what aspects that are important and what you actually see in terms of color. I'm not too worried about dynamic range, but if you are you should probably go Sony CMOS in a Nikon or Sony and stay away from the MF camp for a while, unless the Pentax 645Z lens range suits you. Even the Dalsa sensors don't reach the dynamic range of the Sony.

The P45+ has not always been bad, in fact it was once excellent and the flagship model. Much of Joe Cornish work is shot an a P45+ by the way. It's results has not changed of course, but the competition have.

I think there can be a lot of anxiety in the MF camp to "keep the distance from the 135 crowd" rather than looking at the absolute results. If you intend to buy on a budget you must primarily look into the results and see if you like them and if it suits your needs. There are better things out there, but the thing should match the camera and lens range you want to use too.

Compared to the current competition the weak points of the P45+ is dynamic range, higher ISOs and to some extent color separation. Watch those aspects when you evaluate.

The strong points of the P45+ is that it's from a very reliable series, it has long exposure capability, it works with any tech lens without shift limitations, and as I've said I think that he 49x37mm crop size is actually better balanced for full-frame for tech lenses (when digital lens range started out there where no full-frame sensors). If you want to compete on DxOmark with your unit you'll lose though.

From my point of view the largest weakness of the P45+ is not about technical performance, but about price. It's an expensive back due to the long exposure capability. If you manage to find one you can likely get a 50 megapixel Hasselblad CFV-50 to the same or even lower price. The need for long exposure capability narrows your options tremendously though.

I have extremely bad experience from using dealers. In Europe you often find that they have inflated prices, don't know much about tech cameras, don't have good service, and might not even exist in your own country. So when you use a dealer it must be a tech camera specialist, and also one that is used to dealing with budget-conscious amateurs which is far from everyone. I can assure you that despite I have not handled as many backs in person I've looked at a lot of files, written raw software and flatfield algorithms, and I know more about tech cam compatibility than most. Using forums like this is excellent for a second opinion.

That said I'm very pleased with Linhof Studio in the UK, of perhaps five-six dealers I've been in contact with across Europe it's the only one that I feel live up to the hype, they have good tech cam experience and they should also be used to dealing with amateurs. I have not bought a complete system from them though. I'm sure the mentioned US dealers are good too, but I guess you're not in the US.

The suggested Credo 40 is a very fine back and it does perform better than the P45+ in the aspects mentioned, but it limits wide angle options a bit if you like large shifts (to the more expensive ones) and I think the drop from 49x37 to 44x33 is a significant one. You could look into an Aptus-II 8, the same sensor, it should be cheaper. There's also the P40+ with the same sensor. There's a lot of money to save on the choice of digital back.

Personally I don't think it's a great time to spend a lot of money on a digital back if you're on a budget, lots of things is happening now in the market. Get the camera you want and start off cheap on back (but still with adequate quality of course) is what I would recommend.

If you tell us your budget it would be easier to suggest... some people are suggesting digital backs here that cost more than my whole system.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 16, 2014, 02:43:08 am
A few thoughts on the P45+, I owned one and shot it for over 3.5 years

The P45+ is a very old CCD design, it's 39MP and really not much good past iso 200 and in most cases iso 200 is push and pretty noisy.

The P45+ is very very unforgiving with highlights, so you will need to expose to the left to keep your highlights from blowing out, and trust me they will blow 100%

Your shadow recovery on the P45+ is limited, as most times areas in shadow are mushy and not very well detailed.  This is true unless you totally expose for shadows, and of course blow out your highlights, so bracketing is an important consideration for a lot of outdoor shooting

Paul,

Isn't that the same back Mark told us a few years ago had 6 stops more DR than top DSLRs? ;)

To be fair, he was perhaps talking about the P65+...

Irony aside, I am really a bit surprised by your comments about highlights blowing that easily. It was my understanding that Phaseone typically built a 2 stops under-exposure into their base ISO calibration to give the illusion of possible highlight recovery in post.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: synn on October 16, 2014, 02:50:24 am
By all means, try working on a file from a DSLR of the same vintage as the P45+ and see how it goes.
I might have some D80 files lying around if you cant find any.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 16, 2014, 03:06:34 am
Irony aside, I am really a bit surprised by your comments about highlights blowing that easily. It was my understanding that Phaseone typically built a 2 stops under-exposure into their base ISO calibration to give the illusion of possible highlight recovery in post.

I think Paul is talking about back handling, ie how the histogram shows. At the raw level all backs behave in the same way a simple linear filling of a channel and than clip straight off (non-linear highlight response is indeed coming to sensors, but it's not in our cameras yet).

Most highlight "blinkies" show blinking a bit early, for example based on a calculated luminance for the set white balance, rather than show exact raw clipping. The P45+ has more than one stop more sensitive green channel  than the red in daylight, while the Dalsas have more balanced RGB sensitivity in daylight (which also counts for the older 7.2um Dalsa I'm using). Maybe this difference make the P45+ show blinkies later than the Dalsa backs? An ideally exposed red channel will likely mean a clipped green channel on the P45+, while the "daylight-balanced" Dalsa can expose all channels well (simplified of course, depends on what colors you have in the scene etc).

This difference in relative sensitivity might also affect how highlight reconstruction works in Capture One, I don't know. I'm sure Pauls observations are valid, he has a lot of experience with this product and others, but he's talking about handling in the Capture One workflow rather than what's exactly happening on the raw level.

Just having more noisy shadows could also make it appear that you have less highlights as you'd want to expose further to the right.

I think it's okay to use the "noisy" sensors, but be aware that 1) I use grad filters and 2) I have a shooting style which prefer softer light conditions and often not any visible sky at all and 3) my post-processing style is such that I don't push shadows that much.

It's also important to learn by testing how the highlight blinkies and histogram works. I know I can push a little past the blinkies on my Aptus and still not clip. Rather than a white-balance dependent luminance level I'd prefer to have true raw blinkies with red=all channels clipped, orange=two channels clipped and yellow=one channel clipped, but I guess manufacturers consider that to be too user-unfriendly...
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 16, 2014, 04:01:34 am
Thank you kindly for suggesting alternatives Ken. Unfortunately the IQ140 and the Credo 40 are certainly way out of my budget.

I certainly hear your point about the crappy LCD on the P+ backs but the price point is in a sweet spot for me and hence too hard to ignore.

It also means that I can spend a bit more on the lens.

I'm of the school of thought in full frame that lenses are where one should focus on spending rather than on the bodies / sensor. Is that line of thinking still relevant in Medium format?

Currently I have got the Linhof Techno at the top of the Camera shortlist and I'll do some more homework on the RM3Di as it has had a few mentions so far already.

Cheers.

Wow, so many replies and info posted!

From reading everything including what the OP has said I would recommend a Arca Swiss RM3Di, a Schneider 35mm Digitar lens (If you can afford a Rodenstock HR-W then that) and a PhaseOne IQ140 or Credo 40 back. (If you can afford a Credo 60 or IQ160 then that)

With the RM3Di you have tilt (or Swing, not both at the same time) with every lens you mount. You also have Back fall/rise and shift (can be combined) with any back.

No need to use adapter / accessories or special tilt/swing lens mounts. Very clean, simple and effective system.

Also the focusing ring is in the body so you can calibrate for infinity for every lens you mount. Just make a few test shots and write down the number. The only issue that the focusing scale on the focusing ring on the body is not in feet or meters it is a generic number scale from 0. With my lenses infinity is generally around 4. Each lens then comes with a distance scale cheat sheet with corresponding numbers. To focus you determine your distance to subject or desired focus point look the matching focus ring number to the distance on the cheat sheet, add your infinity number and then set to the corresponding number (of the sum). Sounds complicated but it isnt. And it is very very precise.

With the PhaseOne IQ backs you can also use focus mask to determine if the image is in perfect focus (and see how focus falls off).

I have used this system for more than a year and the results have been superb.

Keep in mind that with tech lenses and digital backs you need to take an LCC shot (by putting a white translucent plexi 4x4" piece infront of the lens tight and taking a shot) after you make back or lens movements. That part is a pain but you get used to it and no tech camera setup is exempt from it. SLR lenses do not require it though.

Anything less** than the setup I suggested and you might as well use a D810. I would also suggest a D810 instead of a 645Z because the Nikon has a MUCH wider range of lenses available including the tilt shift PC-E lenses. The 645Z has no wide angle tilt shift lenses available. None. Also not all lenses available for the 645z are great. Use a so so lens with the 645z and you might as well be shooting with a lower MP camera. Same thing applies to the Nikon of course but with the Nikon there are EXCELLENT lenses available in the entire focal length range. From extreme wide angle to super tele and everything in between.

With tech cameras focal length availability is limited also but most lenses are much higher quality than SLR lenses and most have large image circles that allow you stitch easily. 

**I am not recommending a PhaseOne P+ back (or Leaf Aptus or Hasselblad back) not because they cant produce high quality results, they sure can! but the crappy lcd screen does not make for a nice untethered shooting experience.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 16, 2014, 04:04:50 am
Thanks again Erik. I have read up on the A7R and regard it highly as well. If I were starting out from scratch, I would certainly go the Sony route as it gives you the option of using Canon, Nikon, Sony and Carl Zeiss branded lenses.

As mentioned in the first post, I won't be doing "serious" work as this is currently a passion driven exploration of new territory.

Hi,

A very good posting with lots of info! Thanks a lot!

I would mention the A7/A7r as an alternative to the Nikon, lots of options to use almost any lens. The downside may be that the A7r is a first generation camera with some issues, like the famous shutter vibration.

The other thing, about shooting experience on the P45+ and similar backs, I would say that Ken has a very good point. The P45+ screen is quite OK for histograms and blinkies, but not much else. It is sort of OK for slow and deliberate work, but I guess I share Ken's reservations regarding serious work.

Best regards
Erik



Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 16, 2014, 04:19:28 am
I should have mentioned this earlier but I'm located in Sydney, Australia.

I have asked around and found some good dealers locally to touch base with. There is a dedicated technical camera dealer who doesn't sell digital backs and another who sells digital backs and is phase one approved. I have reached out to both of them and they have been nothing but helpful so far.

I have replied to your other points in line in a different colour. Cheers.

First and foremost, if you are getting into MF for the first time, find a dealer, and setup a time to shoot with the gear.  MF is much smaller user circle and dealers are critical in the repair and support of the product.  

A few thoughts on the P45+, I owned one and shot it for over 3.5 years

The P45+ is a very old CCD design, it's 39MP and really not much good past iso 200 and in most cases iso 200 is push and pretty noisy.

I shoot mostly at base ISO and incorporate long exposure quite a bit in my photography so higher ISOs aren't too much of a worry hopefully in the future

The P45+ is very very unforgiving with highlights, so you will need to expose to the left to keep your highlights from blowing out, and trust me they will blow 100%

Your shadow recovery on the P45+ is limited, as most times areas in shadow are mushy and not very well detailed.  This is true unless you totally expose for shadows, and of course blow out your highlights, so bracketing is an important consideration for a lot of outdoor shooting

These two points are new to me and I'm looking at them in context of the rest of the other posts further down about shadow and highlight as well

The P45+ will shoot up to 1 hour, however the ambient temp has to be at 69 degrees F or lower, and when it shoots for 1 hour, it has to take a mandatory dark frame exposure immediately afterwards.  In fact all Phase One backs from 1 second out do this, even the IQ250 CMOS.

The LCD on the P45+ is very low resolution and will not offer you much useful feedback in the field in regards to focus checking, as when zooming into 100%, you still can't tell much.  And the time it takes to zoom into 100% is considerable, lots of button pushing and moving the screen around.

I'm after long exposures of around 5 to 10 mins maximum and not much longer than that so that should be ok. I'll have to restrict LE usage during our summers. Things can get up to 40 deg C (104F) around here quite often

There is no USB connectivity for the P45+ only firewire as is true will all P+ backs, so in field tethering has to be done with a full sized laptop.

What about using some of the external monitors like Atomos Ninja? Would the firewire connection work there?

The P45+ chip is a 1:1 crop, so you won't get a 100% view only 90%, most times not that important but can impact wide angle lenses.

Make sure your P45+ has the latest firmware that Phase One released, and that it's certified to get to 1 hour exposures.  There are possibly still some P45+ backs out there that can't unless Phase One alters their controller card.  I know all about this mine needed this.  

If you use a tech camera, then the P45+ will be a bit more forgiving on shifts as it has no micro lenses and no build in readouts.  The chip appears as one large chip, not a segmented chip, so no tiling will occur.  

If you purchase a P45+, I would purchase it from a dealer and see about a warranty, no P45+ out there should be under any Phase One warranty or Value add, as the Value add's for the P45+ were only 3 years.  If you have to send this back in for repair, trust me, you want to be working with a dealer, not Phase One directly.

If you use your D600 for long exposures, from 1 sec to 1 hour image quality will exceed anything you will get from the P45+.  The P45+ is good and for it's time was amazing, but when it was current, there were no CMOS cameras at 20MP and none CMOS cameras that were out really could come close to the p45+, but that was 6 years ago, almost 7, and CMOS has come a long way.

It's good that you are interested in MF, but I strongly would recommend not spend the 8 or 9K on the P45+, instead, look at the IQ140 or Credo 40.  There have been excellent deals on the IQ140 and Credo 40.  This is the same resolution as the P45+, but a Dalsa chip, which is much more forgiving with highlights, much more.  

Take some time and contact a dealer and see if you can setup a time to stop by and demo some of this gear, as getting your hands on it will help a lot.

Paul

That was an excellent post. Would all these observations apply to the P25+ back as well?
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 16, 2014, 04:22:50 am
I'm of the school of thought in full frame that lenses are where one should focus on spending rather than on the bodies / sensor. Is that line of thinking still relevant in Medium format?

The idea of that is that lenses keep valid for many generations and keep their value, while bodies/sensor lose their value fast and new products appear more often.

This is also true in MF, but in tech cameras when we have the sensor+lens combination issue it's a bit more complicated. If you choose the SK28/SK35 + P45+ combo now, and then upgrade to a IQ160 later it's likely you want to sell the SK28 and SK35 and instead buy Rodenstock Digaron-W 40 and 32 due to better compatibility (ie less color cast) with that sensor.

Even if that may happen it can be a better upgrade plan to actually buy lenses you know you may want to replace in a few years. More than buying things that you think will not lose much value in percent the key when it comes to save money is to avoid buy expensive things. A $35k high end back that loses 20% in value sets you back more than my $4.5k back losing 100% in value (and neither my Aptus or a P45+ will not lose 100% in value yet for a number of years).

There is a possibility that in a few years when you want to upgrade your system, CMOS is the new ruler in MF and they solved the color cast problem not by sensor design but by coming out with yet a new set of wide angles, meaning that the Digaron-W's are at the same position as the SK's are today. Another possibility is that new sensors come out that have good crosstalk suppression which again raises the interest in the SK symmetrical designs. It's hard to predict the future, and the safest bet if you care about budget is to not buy too expensive stuff in the first place.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 16, 2014, 04:33:01 am
Hi Torger,

Once again, your advise is very comprehensive. The more I read about it, the more I'm leaning towards a P25+ back due to cost constraints.

I'm in Sydney Australia and to answer your questions, my budget is around 12k USD over a period of 3 - 4 months. I imagine if I get a P25+ for a nominal rate and then get a good lens + technical camera,  I should be laughing.

Can you please provide your thoughts on the P25+? Here is a brochure I found for the 25+ back http://www.captureintegration.com/download/p25plus_datasheet.pdf (http://www.captureintegration.com/download/p25plus_datasheet.pdf)

Here is the brochure for the P45+ http://www.captureintegration.com/download/p45plus_datasheet.pdf (http://www.captureintegration.com/download/p45plus_datasheet.pdf) As established before, I'm not after the resolution nor am I perplexed about the poor LCD screen. At least on paper the P25+ seems to tick my boxes.

Other replies below inline in red.

Cheers and thanks!

One thing to keep in mind with the tech camera route is that you're looking at longer shutter speeds, especially for wides. Not only are you shooting at ISO50 with a small aperture like f/11 or even f/16, you also will be having a center filter. With the SK35 in nice soft landscape light I often have shutter speeds of 1 - 4 seconds. If you're used to shooting large format film this is no strange, but if you come from a small digital format this might feel limiting. In semi-windy weather it can indeed be a bit frustrating, when things seem to be still in 1/4 second but not for 2 seconds which you might need for the shot.

I have read about the use of center filter in a few articles online so that is something I'm expecting to face

Do look at P45+ results. As I said earlier there's a lot of subjectivity on what aspects that are important and what you actually see in terms of color. I'm not too worried about dynamic range, but if you are you should probably go Sony CMOS in a Nikon or Sony and stay away from the MF camp for a while, unless the Pentax 645Z lens range suits you. Even the Dalsa sensors don't reach the dynamic range of the Sony.

The P45+ has not always been bad, in fact it was once excellent and the flagship model. Much of Joe Cornish work is shot an a P45+ by the way. It's results has not changed of course, but the competition have.

I'm not terribly fussed about the dynamic range of the medium format back. If it comes down to that, I'll end up selling my D600 and replacing it with a newer model from the Sony A7R line. So that is not of concern at the moment

I think there can be a lot of anxiety in the MF camp to "keep the distance from the 135 crowd" rather than looking at the absolute results. If you intend to buy on a budget you must primarily look into the results and see if you like them and if it suits your needs. There are better things out there, but the thing should match the camera and lens range you want to use too.

Compared to the current competition the weak points of the P45+ is dynamic range, higher ISOs and to some extent color separation. Watch those aspects when you evaluate.

The strong points of the P45+ is that it's from a very reliable series, it has long exposure capability, it works with any tech lens without shift limitations, and as I've said I think that he 49x37mm crop size is actually better balanced for full-frame for tech lenses (when digital lens range started out there where no full-frame sensors). If you want to compete on DxOmark with your unit you'll lose though.

From my point of view the largest weakness of the P45+ is not about technical performance, but about price. It's an expensive back due to the long exposure capability. If you manage to find one you can likely get a 50 megapixel Hasselblad CFV-50 to the same or even lower price. The need for long exposure capability narrows your options tremendously though.

You are right, it is still very pricey at this time. But as per my earlier link to the P25+ brochure, it is also (in theory) capable of doing 1 hour long exposures although I'm not looking at anything that long

I have extremely bad experience from using dealers. In Europe you often find that they have inflated prices, don't know much about tech cameras, don't have good service, and might not even exist in your own country. So when you use a dealer it must be a tech camera specialist, and also one that is used to dealing with budget-conscious amateurs which is far from everyone. I can assure you that despite I have not handled as many backs in person I've looked at a lot of files, written raw software and flatfield algorithms, and I know more about tech cam compatibility than most. Using forums like this is excellent for a second opinion.

That said I'm very pleased with Linhof Studio in the UK, of perhaps five-six dealers I've been in contact with across Europe it's the only one that I feel live up to the hype, they have good tech cam experience and they should also be used to dealing with amateurs. I have not bought a complete system from them though. I'm sure the mentioned US dealers are good too, but I guess you're not in the US.

The suggested Credo 40 is a very fine back and it does perform better than the P45+ in the aspects mentioned, but it limits wide angle options a bit if you like large shifts (to the more expensive ones) and I think the drop from 49x37 to 44x33 is a significant one. You could look into an Aptus-II 8, the same sensor, it should be cheaper. There's also the P40+ with the same sensor. There's a lot of money to save on the choice of digital back.

Personally I don't think it's a great time to spend a lot of money on a digital back if you're on a budget, lots of things is happening now in the market. Get the camera you want and start off cheap on back (but still with adequate quality of course) is what I would recommend.

Once again a tick box for the P25+ back

If you tell us your budget it would be easier to suggest... some people are suggesting digital backs here that cost more than my whole system.

I think Paul is talking about back handling, ie how the histogram shows. At the raw level all backs behave in the same way a simple linear filling of a channel and than clip straight off (non-linear highlight response is indeed coming to sensors, but it's not in our cameras yet).

Most highlight "blinkies" show blinking a bit early, for example based on a calculated luminance for the set white balance, rather than show exact raw clipping. The P45+ has more than one stop more sensitive green channel  than the red in daylight, while the Dalsas have more balanced RGB sensitivity in daylight (which also counts for the older 7.2um Dalsa I'm using). Maybe this difference make the P45+ show blinkies later than the Dalsa backs? An ideally exposed red channel will likely mean a clipped green channel on the P45+, while the "daylight-balanced" Dalsa can expose all channels well (simplified of course, depends on what colors you have in the scene etc).

This difference in relative sensitivity might also affect how highlight reconstruction works in Capture One, I don't know. I'm sure Pauls observations are valid, he has a lot of experience with this product and others, but he's talking about handling in the Capture One workflow rather than what's exactly happening on the raw level.

Just having more noisy shadows could also make it appear that you have less highlights as you'd want to expose further to the right.

I think it's okay to use the "noisy" sensors, but be aware that 1) I use grad filters and 2) I have a shooting style which prefer softer light conditions and often not any visible sky at all and 3) my post-processing style is such that I don't push shadows that much.

It's also important to learn by testing how the highlight blinkies and histogram works. I know I can push a little past the blinkies on my Aptus and still not clip. Rather than a white-balance dependent luminance level I'd prefer to have true raw blinkies with red=all channels clipped, orange=two channels clipped and yellow=one channel clipped, but I guess manufacturers consider that to be too user-unfriendly...

I use grad filters too. Would the Lee system easily translate to either the SK or Rodenstock lenses?
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 16, 2014, 04:42:54 am
Lee grads play well with the SK and Rodenstocks. In my Linhof Techno review page you see I actually use the smaller Lee Seven5 system (as the lenses generally have small filter threads), I've also written down the limits in terms of wide angle compatibility of that.

I've not shot with a P25+ but with a Hasselblad CF-22 which has the same sensor and thus similar image quality parameters, minus the long exposure though. When you pixel peep the "quality of pixels" will be about the same as P45+. Both have Kodak sensors with similar pixel design (I think... I shall see if I can find more detailed info).

22 megapixels have both advantages and disadvantages. You'll be less nervous about focusing precision, and you can stop down to f/16 and it won't look less sharp than f/11. The main disadvantage is that it's only 22 megapixels in terms of resolving power, if that is a serious limitation to you or not is up to you to decide.

It's also more aliasing prone due to its large pixel size, but it's survivable. I'll send you an example from a Hasselblad CF-22 shot made on my Techno. It does not translate exactly to a P25+ processed in Capture One but you should get an idea of how sharp it looks etc.

At a $12k budget I think you should certainly try to go for a P25+ or other low cost back. If you didn't need the long exposure you would have more to choose from and even cheaper 22 megapixel options. I think my 33 megapixel Aptus 75 actually often sells for less than a P25+ by the way.

If you are more like me focused on the joy of using a technical camera with movements etc than having the absolutely latest in resolving power and dynamic range you will get much more joy by spending money on the tech cam system you like the handling of and buying a real cheap back and have fun with that and possibly upgrade later on when you've forgot how much you spent in your initial investment :)
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 16, 2014, 04:53:56 am
Hi,

I just own the P45+ back. It is interesting that "Synn" finds that his Credo 40 is superior in all aspects, but it is not really a surprise. The Credo has a much more modern DALSA sensor while the P45+ has an older Kodak sensor.

I would say that Paul may be a bit to hard on the P45+, it can make some excellent images, but I would say that Paul is very much right that the later and more expensive sensors are more useful. Paul may also feel that the P45+ represent poor value compared to 36MP DSLRs. I have never had owned a 36 MP DSLR, but I have every reason to believe that is the case.

On the other hand, Anders Torger is also right in that the P45+ is a good choice for technical cameras.

I have posted some samples from my P45+ here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Shoots/BernardSamples/

Best regards
Erik



That was an excellent post. Would all these observations apply to the P25+ back as well?
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Ken R on October 16, 2014, 07:39:48 am
Wolven:

Since your budget is $12k I would advice you to steer away from a tech camera Medium Format Digital system. $12k is enough for a good body and one or two lenses but not enough when you add a good digital back. Yes, you might have enough for a System with an older P+ or Leaf back but it will have compromises that I don't think are worth having to endure when there are excellent cameras like the D810 (or A7R or 645z) readily available.

With a $12k tech camera system you will gain the ability to shift/tilt quite a bit, the awesome lens quality and of course the experience of working with such a system plus the possibility of upgrading components in the future. But keep in mind that you will most likely not gain image quality over a D810/A7R and most likely loose some.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 16, 2014, 08:03:46 am
Hi,

You can use T&S on Sony A7r. The D810 is not so flexible in that sense.

(http://hartblei.de/photos/the-whole-kit-web.jpg) (http://hartblei.de/en/index.htm)

(http://www.cambo.com/Html/Images/ACTUS-B_120NKs.jpg) (http://www.cambo.com)

Best regards
Erik

Wolven:

Since your budget is $12k I would advice you to steer away from a tech camera Medium Format Digital system. $12k is enough for a good body and one or two lenses but not enough when you add a good digital back. Yes, you might have enough for a System with an older P+ or Leaf back but it will have compromises that I don't think are worth having to endure when there are excellent cameras like the D810 (or A7R or 645z) readily available.

With a $12k tech camera system you will gain the ability to shift/tilt quite a bit, the awesome lens quality and of course the experience of working with such a system plus the possibility of upgrading components in the future. But keep in mind that you will most likely not gain image quality over a D810/A7R and most likely loose some.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: eronald on October 16, 2014, 08:16:37 am
Wolven,

 There is something to what Ken says. Backs were always expensive, and with your budget you will get an older back, which dSLR tech has caught up with. So you may not gain a lot because probably what can be done with a P25 can also be done at least as well with a Sony.

 On the other side, you can certainly get a decent tech camera and lens, a cheap old back, and wait a couple of years to upgrade the back if you think this working style really will suit you in the future.

 My own feeling is that good tech is fun to have, but these days work can be done with fairly cheap equipment if one is motivated. In particular, I think liveview and remote viewing via iPad is simplifying working methods a lot.

Edmund


Wolven:

Since your budget is $12k I would advice you to steer away from a tech camera Medium Format Digital system. $12k is enough for a good body and one or two lenses but not enough when you add a good digital back. Yes, you might have enough for a System with an older P+ or Leaf back but it will have compromises that I don't think are worth having to endure when there are excellent cameras like the D810 (or A7R or 645z) readily available.

With a $12k tech camera system you will gain the ability to shift/tilt quite a bit, the awesome lens quality and of course the experience of working with such a system plus the possibility of upgrading components in the future. But keep in mind that you will most likely not gain image quality over a D810/A7R and most likely loose some.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 16, 2014, 08:20:59 am
$12k is indeed a bit on the low side, you may need to buy all components second hand for that.

It's not impossible though. Start off with an SK47XL, wait with the SK35 until later. Really think long and hard if you really need the SK28, which while cheaper than many of the Rodenstock wides still is an expensive lens. I don't have the SK28 myself, and if you look at traditional large format work they don't go that wide as those lenses did not really exist. If you go with the 22 megapixel back you can probably get away with the old-school Rodenstock Sironar Digital 35mm. I had that first but sold it in favor of the SK35 which is sharper.

A second hand 4x5" Sinar X is probably the cheapest you can get while still have some usability left (high quality geared movements is important), and find some old-school Digital Arts sliding back for that. I would not recommend it though, it's very bulky to carry. A friend of mine have such a system with a 22 megapixel back and I think the total with a couple of lenses was like $4k. It works, but it doesn't see outside that much due to the bulkiness.

Of practical and current cameras I think Silvestri is the cheapest you can get. The new Arca-Swiss F-Universalis is however cheap too, I haven't really studied which get you the most economical system. Arca-Swiss MF-two is somewhere inbetween.

The Linhof Techno is unfortunately not a cheap camera. I bought my Techno second hand with sliding back and  three lenses (the Rodenstock Sironar Digital 35, SK47XL and SK90 I think it was) for about $12k, but then I needed to add a digital back on top. Every little Linhof-branded accessory to the Techno costs a fortune, the sliding back is painfully expensive. You can get a Silvestri sliding back for it though, I'm not sure how good that ground glass is though compared to Linhof's own.

If I was on a tighter budget and I was buying a system all over again I'd probably go for the Arca-Swiss MF-two or the F-Universalis. The F-Universalis is so new so I don't really know what the differences are from the MF-two. If I lose some geared movements with the F-Universalis I'd probably go for the MF-two. With a larger budget, I'd get the Techno, the reason being it's better portability.

Attaching a photo of my own system, it has seven lenses from 35 to 180mm packed in a single F-stop XL ICU. Few tech systems are this portable. Few choose to have as many lenses as I have though.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Gigi on October 16, 2014, 08:22:23 am
You've gotten some very good and very specific advice. So here's some more - .02$ worth from a more relaxed vantage point: I've been shooting for some years with a Leaf Aptus II back, 33 mp, and very happy with it. It has enough resolution to do whatever is needed, smaller files so that the time to check focus isn't so long, full 100% viewing to check focus (very nice), and the colors/highlights are just lovely. Can't imagine a nicer place to be, although it isn't cutting edge, it works very nicely.

The recommendation I'd offer would be to get a Cambo WRS, a lens, and a back. If you get something like the back above, you can happily shoot with the last generation of lenses (such as the 47, Apo Sironar 55, etc.) and be quite happy. They aren't so expensive, and maybe not 20mm shifters, but pretty much up to 15mm. If you want to go more extreme, the 35XL isn't so beloved anymore by the "bleeding edge" guys, so you can get that for less $$, and with some care, get some shift out of it. But maybe the 43 would be better. With shifting you can make these lenses do all sorts of things, and with a pancake camera, the stitching is rather straightforward.

The Cambo is very good value for the $, a simpler and honest camera. With the movements in 2 directions, you can get enormous real estate out of your lens. Rather than going for "the best" or "the right", try getting into the swimming pool and see how you feel about the water. You could get into this system for your budget.

This way of shooting is a very different experience, more thoughtful and contemplative, and the results are quite different. Hard to assess from a distance. It is only suggested if you are looking for some variant of the view camera experience, but in digital. If you want something faster, or not tripod based, that's a totally different line of thought.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 16, 2014, 08:23:30 am
Thanks for that Torger. From the samples you had sent me I am quite convinced that a 22 MPx back would be sufficient for my needs. After reading through all the great advice here, the idea has solidified in my head about getting into medium format with a cheap back and a good technical camera and lens setup.

Please let me know if you are able to find any other peculiarities with the P25+ back.

Lee grads play well with the SK and Rodenstocks. In my Linhof Techno review page you see I actually use the smaller Lee Seven5 system (as the lenses generally have small filter threads), I've also written down the limits in terms of wide angle compatibility of that.

I've not shot with a P25+ but with a Hasselblad CF-22 which has the same sensor and thus similar image quality parameters, minus the long exposure though. When you pixel peep the "quality of pixels" will be about the same as P45+. Both have Kodak sensors with similar pixel design (I think... I shall see if I can find more detailed info).

22 megapixels have both advantages and disadvantages. You'll be less nervous about focusing precision, and you can stop down to f/16 and it won't look less sharp than f/11. The main disadvantage is that it's only 22 megapixels in terms of resolving power, if that is a serious limitation to you or not is up to you to decide.

It's also more aliasing prone due to its large pixel size, but it's survivable. I'll send you an example from a Hasselblad CF-22 shot made on my Techno. It does not translate exactly to a P25+ processed in Capture One but you should get an idea of how sharp it looks etc.

At a $12k budget I think you should certainly try to go for a P25+ or other low cost back. If you didn't need the long exposure you would have more to choose from and even cheaper 22 megapixel options. I think my 33 megapixel Aptus 75 actually often sells for less than a P25+ by the way.

If you are more like me focused on the joy of using a technical camera with movements etc than having the absolutely latest in resolving power and dynamic range you will get much more joy by spending money on the tech cam system you like the handling of and buying a real cheap back and have fun with that and possibly upgrade later on when you've forgot how much you spent in your initial investment :)
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 16, 2014, 08:25:25 am
Many thanks for the samples. You gotta love those Zeiss lenses for architecture photography!

Hi,

I just own the P45+ back. It is interesting that "Synn" finds that his Credo 40 is superior in all aspects, but it is not really a surprise. The Credo has a much more modern DALSA sensor while the P45+ has an older Kodak sensor.

I would say that Paul may be a bit to hard on the P45+, it can make some excellent images, but I would say that Paul is very much right that the later and more expensive sensors are more useful. Paul may also feel that the P45+ represent poor value compared to 36MP DSLRs. I have never had owned a 36 MP DSLR, but I have every reason to believe that is the case.

On the other hand, Anders Torger is also right in that the P45+ is a good choice for technical cameras.

I have posted some samples from my P45+ here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Shoots/BernardSamples/

Best regards
Erik

Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 16, 2014, 08:27:52 am
Hi Ken, thanks for pointing the DSLR alternatives out but it is not just the image quality I am after. Otherwise I would have gone out and bought a Sony A7R. I rather want to get into medium format territory and learn the techniques associated. I am hopeful that for 12k and compromising on a cheap back I would be able to get a setup that would give me a huge learning and experimenting opportunity.

Cheers.

Wolven:

Since your budget is $12k I would advice you to steer away from a tech camera Medium Format Digital system. $12k is enough for a good body and one or two lenses but not enough when you add a good digital back. Yes, you might have enough for a System with an older P+ or Leaf back but it will have compromises that I don't think are worth having to endure when there are excellent cameras like the D810 (or A7R or 645z) readily available.

With a $12k tech camera system you will gain the ability to shift/tilt quite a bit, the awesome lens quality and of course the experience of working with such a system plus the possibility of upgrading components in the future. But keep in mind that you will most likely not gain image quality over a D810/A7R and most likely loose some.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 16, 2014, 08:29:25 am
Thanks Erik. I believe an upgrade to my D600 will be quite some ways away after I invest in a medium format system.

Until then I am sure I will enjoy the tech camera's varied possibilities.

Hi,

You can use T&S on Sony A7r. The D810 is not so flexible in that sense.


Best regards
Erik

Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Paul2660 on October 16, 2014, 08:30:46 am
Hi,

I just own the P45+ back. It is interesting that "Synn" finds that his Credo 40 is superior in all aspects, but it is not really a surprise. The Credo has a much more modern DALSA sensor while the P45+ has an older Kodak sensor.

I would say that Paul may be a bit to hard on the P45+, it can make some excellent images, but I would say that Paul is very much right that the later and more expensive sensors are more useful. Paul may also feel that the P45+ represent poor value compared to 36MP DSLRs. I have never had owned a 36 MP DSLR, but I have every reason to believe that is the case.

On the other hand, Anders Torger is also right in that the P45+ is a good choice for technical cameras.

I have posted some samples from my P45+ here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Shoots/BernardSamples/

Best regards
Erik


Hello Eric,

I wasn't trying be too harsh on the P45+, and your point of comparing to a 36MP DSLR is a good one  I actually used the P45+ for around 30K to 35K actuations, all with a AFDIII or DF body, more than I have used with either my 160 or 260.  And as Torger pointed out, when the P45+ was first announced in 2007 it was the best solution available for digital.  You might still be able to find some of the reviews from the owners of this site.  The P45+ had the single greatest amount of resolution that was in any standard digital camera that could be carried in the field.  The best DSLR at that time was the Canon 1ds MKII at 16MP and in October of 2008, Canon announced the 1ds MKIII, which I briefly owned, but sold to purchase the P45+.  I was after base resolution and 39MP was 2x the Canon, or very close.

But now in 2014, there are just a lot more alternatives, both in the MF lineup and DSLR lineup.  

I am unique in that I personally don't see much difference from the file of the MF back or DSLR like the D800.  Others do.  Where the MF back will have a bit better color response, it loses in the shadow DR, as even at iso 50, the files are not as clean as a D810, again at least to my eyes.

My main reason for the move up to MF was the higher resolution, in that in a single capture I had 40MP and good get a large print with less or none uprezing.  I moved to the tech camera because none of the offered Mamiya/Phase One wide lenses, 28mm 35mm or 45mm offered good frame wide sharpeness.  Thus my 40MP shots were more like 30MP after cropping the soft/smeared corners.  The tech camera with movements offers much better overall details, center and corner and adds the ability to have movements which I use in almost all my wide shots.  

Again, no doubt the P45+ sensor is going to be much more tech lens friendly, as it has no readout lines (which create tiling) and no microlenses (which create both crosstalk and ripple).  It's a 1:1 crop, which is not too much penalty.  (how I wish Phase One had made the 250 1:1 instead of 1:3)  However the DR of the P45+ is pretty limited, which is a big deal for me.  Eric has shown this in his comparisions with his A99 and P45+ shadow comparisons.  

Are the Dalsa chips better, well, they are still basically a base iso +1 level chip.  So 50 to 100 iso.  They have excellent DR towards to the highend, thus highlights have a lot more room, they still can be tricky in the shadows still much better than the P45+ in my work.  Are the the best for tech cameras, NO, they are not.  They have read out lines, which breakout sensor read into 8 segments, very often one of these segments gets out of calibration and you get tiling.  They have microlenses and thus have both ripple and crosstalk.  So your tech lens choice is pushed towards the Rodenstocks not the Schneiders, even though the Schneiders are excellent glass.  The 260 claims 1 hour but from what I have seen from mine it's more like a 30 minute max unless you are shooting in the dead of winter where the chip will stay cool.  Somehow, Phase got a very very clean, and detailed image from the P45+, IMO it's still the KING for long exposure in MF land.  

I have moved to DSLR's for my long expsoures, and since I stack, the MF design won't work anyway due to the mandatory dark frame.

Take a look at the DxO score for the P45+, P65+.  The P65+ was an amazing step up in DR and still is a great back.  If it only had USB and thus could be tethered to a small device like the Surface Pro!  

I hope that the OP can setup sometime with a dealer or other photographer using some of this gear, test it and then see what he feels.  Try the P45+/Phase One DF+ or DF or another body like Hasselblad as Eric has.  Then shoot maybe a P65+ or Credo 60/iq160 and shoot your D600.  Go back spend some time working the files in C1, yes C1, as C1 just does better with Phase One/Leaf files, then look at the shots you would have taken with your D600.  That's the only way to really make the call.  Hopefully you can do this.  

Paul

Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 16, 2014, 08:31:56 am
You have brought up a good point seeded deeply in my mind, Edmund.

To invest too much into a great back only to find that I am not all that keen to continue this line of work would be a big blow financially. At my current budget, I will be dipping my toes sufficiently to whet my appetite.

Live view and Ipad tethering are nice to have but not as essential as, say long exposure capability for me. Its something I have to learn to adapt to.

Cheers

Wolven,

 There is something to what Ken says. Backs were always expensive, and with your budget you will get an older back, which dSLR tech has caught up with. So you may not gain a lot because probably what can be done with a P25 can also be done at least as well with a Sony.

 On the other side, you can certainly get a decent tech camera and lens, a cheap old back, and wait a couple of years to upgrade the back if you think this working style really will suit you in the future.

 My own feeling is that good tech is fun to have, but these days work can be done with fairly cheap equipment if one is motivated. In particular, I think liveview and remote viewing via iPad is simplifying working methods a lot.

Edmund


Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 16, 2014, 08:35:02 am
My own feeling is that good tech is fun to have, but these days work can be done with fairly cheap equipment if one is motivated. In particular, I think liveview and remote viewing via iPad is simplifying working methods a lot.

That is very true. If I was only in it for the image quality I would probably use a Sony A7r and stitching techniques today. Having a tech camera as an amateur is a bit like having a Harley-Davidson motorcycle, or indeed a large format film camera. It's not all about quality, it's about enjoying the image making process having a bit of fun.

Although I will ditch the sliding back when good tech cam friendly affordable liveview backs appear I actually find it a bit charming to work with this all-mechanical camera using old-school techniques. It took a while but now I indeed can understand the upside-down and mirrored ground glass image. Photography is so simple in a way. ISO is always 50, you have aperture and shutter speed in the mechanical copal shutter. The technical camera body is just a purely mechanical device that's designed to hold the lens and sensor in relative positions to each other adjustable in precise ways. Digital back is just there to short cut the film development process.

I see new photography products blazing by and I do follow them from my engineering interest, but it's also relaxing to have this old school tech cam system for my photography, I've released the pressure on having the latest, I don't have the stress to upgrade it to keep the distance from the 135 crowd.

So if budget tech cam system will work or not will depend on what expectations you have. If it's about best possible image quality in the most cost effective way a high MP 135 camera complemented with stitching techniques must be the answer.

I don't know if I will be using tech cams in 5 - 10 years from now or not. It depends on what will happen, there are so many scenarios. Say if we get lots of great tilt-shift lenses in the smaller format in many focal lengths then 135 would be more attractive for me, and if the same time MF continues to develop in a tech-unfriendly way and continues the high pricing, it could tip over so I move back to 135. However say if next CMOS is tech friendly, Hasselblad continues its CFV line and the new trend with much more attractive pricing that could be a natural upgrade when my Aptus 75 electronics finally dies or I just get too much megapixel-envy in my mind so I just have to upgrade.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Paul2660 on October 16, 2014, 09:41:45 am
Actually CCD backs have held very good value, look at the before mentioned P45+, as they are still selling for around 8K, for a back that cost new 29K in March of 2008, that's much much better value than any DSLR to date.  My D800e which sold for 3.2K in June of 2012 is only worth 1.2K at KEH and about 1.6 on the open market. 

What will be a huge factor for CCD backs, is when Phase One brings the next CMOS chip out, sometime next year or early 2016.  I figure it's another Sony chip. 

Quesitons:

1.  Will it have the same design for microlenses, which will limit tech lenses even more
2.  Will it be full frame or 1:1
3.  What MP resolution will it have? 70, 90?
4.  Will it stay in the "reasonable" price point?
5.  Will Phase One offer a realistic trade in from say a IQ180, or 260 or etc.

You will still have the photographers who prefer the "look" of CCD backs, and they will continue to purchase them and justify the differences they feel are there.  But these CCD backs will always have the exact same limitations you have today, and we have gone over those plenty of times.  If you like the look, can live with the limits, then it's the right back.

However I feel for many, the first full frame CMOS Medium format back will be a huge seller for Phase One, "world wide" and if they figure out a way to make the chip more useable for movements, then even better. 

For my work, I would easily move to the Credo 50 (I prefer the look from testing on Getdpi by Guy Mancuso) but the 1:3 crop is a big enough issue I just can't justify the move.  I feel after looking at Guy's shots especially the solid blue skies, I could make the shifting still work, especially since there would be no tiling. 

The other option, that has been both discussed and fully reviewed on this site, the 645z, for sure if I was just starting out, and had no investment in Phase One gear, the 645z would be an easy choice.  50MP is plenty of resolution for what I need.  And 3 years ago, I had 6 Pentax lenses all I used with a Zork adatper, all excellent, but they are gone, not going to start from scratch again.    If you can work with the current Pentax warranty and support structure that is in place, for sure look that direction also.

Paul
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Ken R on October 16, 2014, 05:40:44 pm
Hi Ken, thanks for pointing the DSLR alternatives out but it is not just the image quality I am after. Otherwise I would have gone out and bought a Sony A7R. I rather want to get into medium format territory and learn the techniques associated. I am hopeful that for 12k and compromising on a cheap back I would be able to get a setup that would give me a huge learning and experimenting opportunity.

Cheers.


In that case a P25+ might be a good back for you or one of the Leaf Aptus backs. Schneider lenses are more than good enough for those backs. One can do LOTS of great work with that setup and have some fun in the process.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 16, 2014, 07:33:59 pm
Hi Torger, the SK47XL certainly looks to be in my price bracket. The SK 35XL mentioned by Gigi further down the thread seems a bit more pricier but still looks to be within reach if I stretch.

With that in mind, if I manage to get a Linhof Techno to go with it I should be all set until I save up enough to get a Rodenstock like you suggest. The reason for Linhof over the Sinar is that amongst all three primary components of technical cameras (The back, the body and the lens), I suspect getting a good body will hold me in good stead for a long time while I will presumably go through a few digital backs and even more lenses over time. Out of the lot, Linhof Techno seems more future proof than the rest. But I'll keep a close eye on Arca Swiss. Will have to make my decision closer to the date I suppose.


$12k is indeed a bit on the low side, you may need to buy all components second hand for that.

It's not impossible though. Start off with an SK47XL, wait with the SK35 until later. Really think long and hard if you really need the SK28, which while cheaper than many of the Rodenstock wides still is an expensive lens. I don't have the SK28 myself, and if you look at traditional large format work they don't go that wide as those lenses did not really exist. If you go with the 22 megapixel back you can probably get away with the old-school Rodenstock Sironar Digital 35mm. I had that first but sold it in favor of the SK35 which is sharper.

A second hand 4x5" Sinar X is probably the cheapest you can get while still have some usability left (high quality geared movements is important), and find some old-school Digital Arts sliding back for that. I would not recommend it though, it's very bulky to carry. A friend of mine have such a system with a 22 megapixel back and I think the total with a couple of lenses was like $4k. It works, but it doesn't see outside that much due to the bulkiness.

Of practical and current cameras I think Silvestri is the cheapest you can get. The new Arca-Swiss F-Universalis is however cheap too, I haven't really studied which get you the most economical system. Arca-Swiss MF-two is somewhere inbetween.

The Linhof Techno is unfortunately not a cheap camera. I bought my Techno second hand with sliding back and  three lenses (the Rodenstock Sironar Digital 35, SK47XL and SK90 I think it was) for about $12k, but then I needed to add a digital back on top. Every little Linhof-branded accessory to the Techno costs a fortune, the sliding back is painfully expensive. You can get a Silvestri sliding back for it though, I'm not sure how good that ground glass is though compared to Linhof's own.

If I was on a tighter budget and I was buying a system all over again I'd probably go for the Arca-Swiss MF-two or the F-Universalis. The F-Universalis is so new so I don't really know what the differences are from the MF-two. If I lose some geared movements with the F-Universalis I'd probably go for the MF-two. With a larger budget, I'd get the Techno, the reason being it's better portability.

Attaching a photo of my own system, it has seven lenses from 35 to 180mm packed in a single F-stop XL ICU. Few tech systems are this portable. Few choose to have as many lenses as I have though.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 16, 2014, 07:39:54 pm
The Cambo is not something I have looked at so far (even though the Ads pop up on this site every now and then). I'll certainly look into that aspect.

Thanks for the tip on 35XL, looks very impressive on paper, I'll need to check some unprocessed files showing colour performance etc for those.

"This way of shooting is a very different experience, more thoughtful and contemplative" - this is a good summary of what I'm after. Recently, I have been slowing down my photography, making it more deliberate not taking hand held shots at all. This system will force me to do that every single time and hopefully make me consider every photograph I make. Instead of being driven by the DSLR enabled mentality of mine to 'spray and pray', which has plagued me so far.

Cheers.

You've gotten some very good and very specific advice. So here's some more - .02$ worth from a more relaxed vantage point: I've been shooting for some years with a Leaf Aptus II back, 33 mp, and very happy with it. It has enough resolution to do whatever is needed, smaller files so that the time to check focus isn't so long, full 100% viewing to check focus (very nice), and the colors/highlights are just lovely. Can't imagine a nicer place to be, although it isn't cutting edge, it works very nicely.

The recommendation I'd offer would be to get a Cambo WRS, a lens, and a back. If you get something like the back above, you can happily shoot with the last generation of lenses (such as the 47, Apo Sironar 55, etc.) and be quite happy. They aren't so expensive, and maybe not 20mm shifters, but pretty much up to 15mm. If you want to go more extreme, the 35XL isn't so beloved anymore by the "bleeding edge" guys, so you can get that for less $$, and with some care, get some shift out of it. But maybe the 43 would be better. With shifting you can make these lenses do all sorts of things, and with a pancake camera, the stitching is rather straightforward.

The Cambo is very good value for the $, a simpler and honest camera. With the movements in 2 directions, you can get enormous real estate out of your lens. Rather than going for "the best" or "the right", try getting into the swimming pool and see how you feel about the water. You could get into this system for your budget.

This way of shooting is a very different experience, more thoughtful and contemplative, and the results are quite different. Hard to assess from a distance. It is only suggested if you are looking for some variant of the view camera experience, but in digital. If you want something faster, or not tripod based, that's a totally different line of thought.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 16, 2014, 07:46:28 pm
A very thoughtful post, Paul!

I intend to get a digital back first and then setup an appointment with my local dealer to test various bodies that they may have in stock. The dealer has kindly agreed to this. I will probably avoid trying the newer digital backs simply because I cannot afford them for a long while nor can I justify their cost for my purposes.

And yes, I'll certainly take my shots back to be viewed on CaptureOne. In fact I've been using Capture One for the last few months to process my D600 files and even then, the quality is a huge step up from Lightroom. I rarely do the Lightroom -> Photoshop these days. Its mostly straight out of CaptureOne or CaptureOne -> Photoshop. The black and white processor on CaptureOne gives quite a bit of control that I skipped on buying the SilverFx plugin from Nik!!

Once I get my hands on a back for starters, I'll post back here. Cheers.


..snipped for brevity...(Wolven)

I hope that the OP can setup sometime with a dealer or other photographer using some of this gear, test it and then see what he feels.  Try the P45+/Phase One DF+ or DF or another body like Hasselblad as Eric has.  Then shoot maybe a P65+ or Credo 60/iq160 and shoot your D600.  Go back spend some time working the files in C1, yes C1, as C1 just does better with Phase One/Leaf files, then look at the shots you would have taken with your D600.  That's the only way to really make the call.  Hopefully you can do this.  

Paul


Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 16, 2014, 07:52:50 pm
In that case a P25+ might be a good back for you or one of the Leaf Aptus backs. Schneider lenses are more than good enough for those backs. One can do LOTS of great work with that setup and have some fun in the process.

Thanks Ken! I'm certainly going down the P25+ line as the Leaf backs don't seem to offer as much in terms of long exposure photography.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: synn on October 16, 2014, 08:00:50 pm
Not sure if this might work on the D600 files, but using the IQ250 color profiles on the D800 files instantly makes the files look so much nicer.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 17, 2014, 12:55:13 am
Not sure if this might work on the D600 files, but using the IQ250 color profiles on the D800 files instantly makes the files look so much nicer.

I've never tried that before! I'll go home today and give it a shot.

Cheers mate.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 17, 2014, 02:43:36 am
If 22 megapixels is enough for you to start with it can be mentioned that much of the angst related to poor LCDs, having the sharpest lenses etc go away.

With 22 megapixels the focusing challenge becomes less of an issue and you don't feel the same need to pixelpeep directly on the back. In difficult conditions you can stop down to f/16 and not really loose any resolution.

While the Kodak sensors indeed are a bit aging, they have a good reputation concerning a nice saturated "film-like" look, and indeed they're good at a slide-film type of look. This you can find also in old CCD-based DSLRs Kodak made once. Incorporating that look in your style will put good use of the back.

Use grads and strive for natural looks rather than crazy overly tonemapped stuff and the DR won't be a problem either.

You might be interested in using the same type of grad technique I do. Tech cameras need a calibration shot (the one with the white LCC card in front) and I shoot that with the grad filter still on. Then when you apply the LCC the grad will disappear too, you get a flat file with better exposed foreground. Then you can tonemap that in whatever way you want in your raw converter, which indeed to me often means applying a virtual grad again as the central part of tonemapping. The advantage with this technique is that you can apply more precise tonemapping and you can have sharper and stronger grads in the field and if it's not perfectly placed it does not really matter, as you cancel it out. The disadvantage is that you lose a little bit of the joy of "finishing the image in camera" which for some is the very reason they use grads.

Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 17, 2014, 02:57:24 am
Just to throw in my 2 pence worth. If you don't mind doing 4-8 shots of the same scene at 8-20 secs exposure each time and stack them in Photoshop you will get a noiseless very long exposure picture without the need for buying a P+ back.

Then a Hasselblad back could be good as I think they don't do a black frame so you can get virtually gap-less exposures. Haven't tried this technique in person though, but I might, a friend of mine got a nice old CF-22 which I've used quite some when my Aptus was in and out of repair. If Wolven manages to find a Hasselblad CF-22 (aka CF-132) it should be around $3k or perhaps even less. It's so old though that it's likely that the clock battery is dead (that's the case with my friend's CF-22) so you don't have good timestamps on the photos. Probably you can get that replaced by sending it in, but that would be $700 or so in service cost.

Another thing to consider when choosing a P25+ or P45+ is the need of wakeup procedure which can be irritating. The need of wakeup is somewhat related to the Kodak sensor, but Hasselblad has managed to solve it without needing wakeup, but can on the other hand be a bit dodgy in sync on really short shutter speeds. I don't think that is a major problem though as you rarely go below say 1/30 with a tech cam, and issues start at say 1/250 from my experience. In those rare cases one can set the back to a fixed shutter speed to solve the problem.

With an Aptus back (Dalsa-based) you don't need wakeup, just attach the synch cable and shoot and never have issues, but the price you pay for that is a fan that runs at full speed all the time. I guess it's needed to keep the sensor cool. You can't run the Aptus without the black frame though so the multi-frame long exposure trick won't be gap-less.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 17, 2014, 03:08:51 am
About long exposure, if you do them by applying a 10 stop filter, ie shoot in daylight, you're fine, but if you're really shooting at night and you intend to focus with ground glass you're up for some challenges. I manage to focus my SK35 on the Linhof bright groundglass in conditions so dark that it would require 4 minutes exposure, but it's not super-easy, and you need to do tricks like focus directly on center and compose afterwards, and test-shoot to really see where the edges of the frame are as you can't really see that on the ground glass.

I have a strong headlamp with me so if I need to focus on something close rather than infinity it's okay. A laser pointer can work too, but I find it easier to focus on real subjects lit by a lamp, and I need a headlamp as a part of the safety equipment anyway. If you have nighttime city-scapes there's always street lamps to focus at. But pitch-dark kind of shooting conditions is not going to be fun with ground glass. Then having an RM3Di or Alpa or Cambo and just dial in the hyperfocal or infinity will certainly be appreciated. You will still have issues to see where the corners of the frame will get though.

With the Linhof Techno I know some actually use the infinity stops in their traditional use, ie as stops for hyperfocal or inifinty for a certain lens and aperture, but I find them extremely hard to place with the precision I'd like to have, so I only use two pairs for parallelism guarantee, one placed for short lenses and one pair for long. I think the design of the rail on the Techno is flawed, they use a traditional film design (infinity stops, spring-loaded mechanism, just as they've always had on their Technika 4x5" field cameras) that is not adequate for the extreme parallelism precision we've come to expect in digital. Using of infinity stops works around that flaw though, and in total I think the Techno is still the best field view camera for landscape work you can get for digital.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Justinr on October 17, 2014, 04:18:49 am
I posted this in the beginner's section and was advised that I might have better luck posting in this subsection of the forum.. so here goes..

Hello folks!

I am a long time lurker, first time poster/amateur who does landscape photography purely for the love of it. Been shooting for 4 years and have quite a long distance to go.

I'm a huge fan of work by Joe Cornish who uses a Linhof Techno (if I can remember correctly) for some precision tilt/shift work.

I currently use a D600 with a 24mm PC-E lens for most of my landscape photography and complement it with a 200mm F4 Micro Nikkor and a nifty fifty.

I want to start looking at digital medium format.

I'm on a budget when considering the high RRP for medium format in general so I'll end up buying second hand products most of the time.

What would your recommendation be for someone like me? I'm in no hurry to get started and would like some sound knowledge before proceeding.

Some attractive options (for various reasons) seem to be the older Phase One backs with some cheaper alternative to either a Linhof Techno or one of the Alpa 12 line of cameras with a tilt-shift adapter

Then there is the Pentax 645z with Hartblei TS purely attractive from a, high value for money, perspective...

Am I completely off the mark? Please advise.

I've come a bit late to this thread so this may have been said before but if you have the readies then Mamiya's with a P25 back or similar can be had for a reasonable money. There are also 50mm Mamiya-Sekor 'shift' lenses to be had if you look for them, I have one which is wasted in a way as I use it only as a wide angle lens, and very nice it is to. My personal advice would be to just get out there and do it, it's the best way to work out what you really want.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: eronald on October 17, 2014, 04:26:08 am
Actually, the ideal solution for *cheap* tethered shooting may be the old Imacon/Hasselblad backs with ImageBank which trade at 1/2 the price of the untethered CF backs, or the Leaf Valeos, or even the various tethered backs marketed by Sinar and designed by Jenoptik. An advantage is that the files will be cleaner as there are less electronics in the back. For all I know some of these may even do a form of liveview on the computer.

There is a world of cheap kludgy solutions out there, based on out of maintenance products that work fine, but have no repair workshop, and mostly rely on obsolete software. Anyone who wants to go there needs real help eg. in locating cables and spares, not forum advice. A person buying a car that is 30 years old faces very different issues from somebody who bought the car new and kept it running for 30 years. In terms of electronics, an Imacon back is now the equivalent of a 1985 car.

Is it really the intention of this forum to let a newbie get lost in this labyrinth, or will someone tell him to get a dealer to help him?  -Steve, Doug let an honest devil appear now!  

Edmund
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Justinr on October 17, 2014, 05:55:30 am
Actually, the ideal solution for *cheap* tethered shooting may be the old Imacon/Hasselblad backs with ImageBank which trade at 1/2 the price of the untethered CF backs, or the Leaf Valeos, or even the various tethered backs marketed by Sinar and designed by Jenoptik. An advantage is that the files will be cleaner as there are less electronics in the back. For all I know some of these may even do a form of liveview on the computer.

There is a world of cheap kludgy solutions out there, based on out of maintenance products that work fine, but have no repair workshop, and mostly rely on obsolete software. Anyone who wants to go there needs real help eg. in locating cables and spares, not forum advice. A person buying a car that is 30 years old faces very different issues from somebody who bought the car new and kept it running for 30 years. In terms of electronics, an Imacon back is now the equivalent of a 1985 car.

Is it really the intention of this forum to let a newbie get lost in this labyrinth, or will someone tell him to get a dealer to help him?  -Steve, Doug let an honest devil appear now!  

Edmund

All levels of photography can become a labyrinth if you allow them to. There is not an awful lot that is complicated about buying a standard Mamiya AFD with a Leaf or Phase one back. Certainly old software can become an issue with ZD backs, as I am suffering myself in that respect, but for someone who can happily handle a dSLR what great technical steps need be taken in moving to a basic dMF set up?
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 17, 2014, 06:48:39 am
There is a world of cheap kludgy solutions out there, based on out of maintenance products that work fine, but have no repair workshop, and mostly rely on obsolete software.

I don't see anyone that has suggested a tethered-only solution, but maybe I missed that. P25+ is actually quite modern and while Hasselblad CF-22 / CF-132 is 10 years it still stand-alone with compact flash. So as long as the electronics does not die and you have a stash of not-too-new-and-large CFs it will work. I would certainly not recommend going tether only say with a Phase One H25 or Sinarback.

It's true that running with old electronics is a risk project. Digital backs are officially supported for about 10 years, you can find out in advance what type of repairs that can still be made. Even if a back is no longer officially supported some repairs can still be made, like changing IR filter if you scratch it or replacing clock battery. You probably can't get a total electronics replacement or sensor replacement but for such an old back it wouldn't be worth it anyway, it would be cheaper to buy a new second hand unit.

With US dealers there is quite competitive prices on older "pre-owned" units, going through them is probably a good idea. Around here the prices are however much less competitive, I get considerably better deals off forums. Even with my repair debacle I had on my unit it became a lower cost deal than going through a dealer here in Sweden.

With new digital backs costing easily $30k, spending $4k on an old back is a relatively low economical risk. As an amateur you won't lose income if the back breaks, you probably even have a backup system in the form of a DSLR. People often forget the absolute value of money when these things are discussed. Even if a high end modern back lose relatively little in value seen in percent it's often way more than 100% of the cost of an old back.

Concerning labyrinth, medium format tech cameras is the trickiest labyrinth you can get into in the photography world. If you need a dealer to hold your hand or not will depend on your ability to do own research and willingness to accept risk. And in my case the availability of dealers that actually can help...
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 17, 2014, 06:59:32 am
Hi,

My understanding is that serious dealers make a throughout check of the camera, so buying from those dealers would ensure that the back is within specs.

I bought mine privately, from "Mr. Rib" here on LuLa, he also arranged the 555ELD I am using with the back and he also checked focusing accuracy.

Works fine for me.

Best regards
Erik



With US dealers there is quite competitive prices on older "pre-owned" units, going through them is probably a good idea. Around here the prices are however much less competitive, I get considerably better deals off forums. Even with my repair debacle I had on my unit it became a lower cost deal than going through a dealer here in Sweden.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: eronald on October 17, 2014, 07:01:44 am
I don't see anyone that has suggested a tethered-only solution, but maybe I missed that. P25+ is actually quite modern and while Hasselblad CF-22 / CF-132 is 10 years it still stand-alone with compact flash. So as long as the electronics does not die and you have a stash of not-too-new-and-large CFs it will work. I would certainly not recommend going tether only say with a Phase One H25 or Sinarback.

It's true that running with old electronics is a risk project. Digital backs are officially supported for about 10 years, you can find out in advance what type of repairs that can still be made. Even if a back is no longer officially supported some repairs can still be made, like changing IR filter if you scratch it or replacing clock battery. You probably can't get a total electronics replacement or sensor replacement but for such an old back it wouldn't be worth it anyway, it would be cheaper to buy a new second hand unit.

With US dealers there is quite competitive prices on older "pre-owned" units, going through them is probably a good idea. Around here the prices are however much less competitive, I get considerably better deals off forums. Even with my repair debacle I had on my unit it became a lower cost deal than going through a dealer here in Sweden.

Torger -

*I* am suggesting a tethered solution because it is *cheap*. There is no reason not to use a H25 or V96, they correspond perfectly to a field workflow with  tech cam, and can be had for $1000.  If you are going to go for cheap and elderly, you might as well go for really cheap, no?

Edmund
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 17, 2014, 07:06:58 am
Torger -

*I* am suggesting a tethered solution because it is *cheap*. There is no reason not to use a H25 or V96, they correspond perfectly to a field workflow with  tech cam, and can be had for $1000.  If you are going to go for cheap and elderly, you might as well go for really cheap, no?

Sorry Edmund I misunderstood :)

Okay yes it's true it's even cheaper indeed. I draw myself the line at compact flash standalone and somewhere around 2004. The cheapest standalone deals on 22 megapixel backs is about $3k sometimes even less. I think that's low enough in relation to the camera body and lenses (which I think will be around $10k in this case), and saving $1k more to get a tether only solution is not really worth it in my humble opinion. If one would really want to go tether-only I think I'd look for a Sinarback 54M.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 17, 2014, 07:12:12 am
My understanding is that serious dealers make a throughout check of the camera, so buying from those dealers would ensure that the back is within specs.

That may be true, on the other hand getting such a check after you've bought your back privately costs about $700. Add that to the price on your private deal when comparing. For a 22-39 megapixel back I doubt that it's a large risk that it actually drifts out of spec unless it's been smashed to the ground or something (which indeed might have happened). Dealers would probably like to push some FUD on private deals though, but overall I think they're quite safe, this type of equipment is generally bought from serious photographers that handle their gear with at least some care.

I've heard reports though that units are not always up to spec when leaving the factory in the first place. Alpa has shimming adapter plates just to battle this problem, but I think it's more relevant for the 60 and 80 megapixel backs than for 22-39 megapixel backs.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: eronald on October 17, 2014, 08:15:51 am
V96C and H25 are cheap from dealers, the MS version of the 96C has incredible resolution, the 96C can work with an imagebank and a standard battery with no comp in the field, so I think these are the best tech cam solutions. As for buying privately, I know that the last time I switched on my P45+ after a year's storage, it had lost a column. This happens occasionally to CCDs, and is unpredictable. The local Phase rep had to get it fixed for free (back under value added warranty, visible electronic fault) but he clearly didn't like to do it., as it cost him time and money. After all I had already paid for the warranty, I wasn't going to pay any more or buy anything else soon, so I could understand the sour face. I got the message and sold the back, before the next out of warranty minor issue cost me a fortune. With MF either you should have a good dealer (Steve, Doug) or just go cheap and no dealer. Anywhere in between costs you a lot of money and is no fun. Frankly, I'd go with Steve or Doug because they can probably build a package for a beginner, and they have a good rep. A bad dealer however is a curse.

Edmund
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 17, 2014, 08:22:46 am
Hi Anders,

I guess that this may be the case.

Joseph Holmes posted a few articles on the issue:

http://www.josephholmes.com/news-sharpmediumformat.html
http://www.josephholmes.com/news-medformatprecision.html

But, that was back in 2009, things may have been improved.

I don't think dealers are spreading FUD on the issue. On the other hand I must say that I am not happy with the dealer system we are dealing with. Obviously some dealers are ver knowledgeable, but quite obviously not all dealers are. But, if there is an issue with a camera or a back, I would say that any user should be entitled to send it to the manufacturer for service. Also, service costs on MFD seem to be unproportionally high.

That said, my experience with my Phase One Dealer, D3 Image AB in Sweden, has been positive. But I only bought some cables and viewfinder masks. They delivered efficiently and at decent price.

Best regards
Erik



I've heard reports though that units are not always up to spec when leaving the factory in the first place.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 17, 2014, 08:35:44 am
I agree... I have myself a magical limit of $150 per megapixel, if it's more expensive than that I don't buy. Still that's related to how much you can afford to lose. I see many private sales of really high end backs too, but their economy is on another scale than my small amateur economy. Even if a purchase would be 100% safe I do not want to have too expensive equipment, if I don't dare to put my tripod into a little stream because I'm afraid of causing an economical disaster then I'm using too expensive gear.

I'm truly an expert buyer though so I would ask for a raw file check for dead columns before buying, ideally a LCC shot so I can look for IR glass scratches too. I can even see if a dead column has been sent in and fixed in the calibration data :-). CCDs have a few dead pixels out of the factory which is masked out by calibration data so that's normal, but dead columns (or partially dead) is more rare, I don't know if they released such stuff new, but I have seen it on a P45+ with matching calibration data.

I've seen it twice in the many test files I've got through my raw developer work, once for a P45+ and once for a Kodak 35mm camera, but if I would search actively for it I'd probably find it in more.

Things to look for when buying an older second hand back

- Check if it can be repaired and what the cost is, there's usually a fixed price list for typical repairs
- Does the clock work?
- Is the IR filter scratch free?
- Has the CCD dead columns?
- Has the back been shot in similar environmental conditions you expect it to work (ie extreme hot or cold)?
- Which type of CF cards does it accept, and can you still get them?

A malfunctioning clock (depleted clock battery) and scratched IR filter can probably be fixed so it's not necessarily a deal breaker, but you need to check what that repair will cost and deduct that and some more (for the risk) from the purchase price. A semidead column does not need to be a deal breaker either, as it can be quite nicely cleaned up with appropriate calibration data, but it should be mirrored in the price.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 17, 2014, 11:23:27 am
A new Techno with Rodenstock 40 and CFV-50c is $25k. Linhof Studio is selling a kit.

Worth comparing with if the budget grows. I don’t like the back's wide angle limitations, but if you can accept them it's a great combo (assuming it delivers on live view), at a total price $10k less than an IQ250 back alone, which employs the same sensor...
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Doug Peterson on October 17, 2014, 12:00:10 pm
That may be true, on the other hand getting such a check after you've bought your back privately costs about $700. Add that to the price on your private deal when comparing. For a 22-39 megapixel back I doubt that it's a large risk that it actually drifts out of spec unless it's been smashed to the ground or something (which indeed might have happened). Dealers would probably like to push some FUD on private deals though, but overall I think they're quite safe, this type of equipment is generally bought from serious photographers that handle their gear with at least some care.

Ironic that you'd say dealers would push FUD about private deals. One man's "FUD" is another mans "accurate information about the pros and cons of purchasing different ways".

You bought privately and spent many MONTHS, a good amount of cash, and a lot of frustration.

If you had purchased from DT we would have been glad to provide you options to evaluate how well your intended solution worked in your intended use-case (cold Swedish weather) to make sure the product you were after was the right one for you. Then if you ran into problems after purchase we know the repair techs and repair procedures extremely well, and would do everything we could to help make that process easy for you (we'd have no problem volunteering to do testing involving a freezer to reproduce specific cold-weather failures) and if with that knowledge and help a standard repair didn't seem to do the trick we'd find some creative solution to make sure you were taken care of.  In no case would you have banged your head against the wall for months. You may well have paid a bit more (in our case our pre-owned gear is pretty reasonably priced IMO, but we can't always match the single lowest eBay price at a given moment), but your forehead would have felt much better. If someone purchases from us and needs help I can't promise the world (e.g. out of warranty repairs still cost money, things still break, especially things like shutters) but I do have pretty large leeway on making sure they are happy with their purchase. If someone purchases elsewhere and needs help my leeway is not as large.

To be clear, most such private sales are entirely hassle free. But there is no question the level of confidence you have of a hassle free transaction and life of ownership is better when buying from a good dealer than when buying e.g. from eBay. This is not FUD; this is just a fact.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Doug Peterson on October 17, 2014, 12:06:45 pm
Things to look for when buying an older second hand back

- Check if it can be repaired and what the cost is, there's usually a fixed price list for typical repairs
- Does the clock work?
- Is the IR filter scratch free?
- Has the CCD dead columns?
- Has the back been shot in similar environmental conditions you expect it to work (ie extreme hot or cold)?
- Which type of CF cards does it accept, and can you still get them?

Our checklist in-house for evaluating pre-owned backs has about 25 more items on it :). But then again, having sold more digital backs than anyone, we know nearly every single thing that can go wrong with them :).
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 17, 2014, 12:42:39 pm
Doug, you know as much as me that my hassle is a demonstration of the failure of Leaf's European dealer network and has nothing to do with me buying privately. I turned to the designated dealer first thing when issues appeared, payed the full repair fee and still the problem could not be solved. I tried two dealers or maybe three, don't remember now, only when I short cut them and sent a video to Leaf centrally demonstrating the issue it was promptly resolved.

That Leaf Aptus does not work in cold weather may be your opinion, but it's not Leaf's and they did fix it when faced with the fact. I think the truth is they have sample variation, but take responsibility if someone gets into trouble. There was a thick layer of sluggishness on the dealer level to get through first though.

I don’t doubt that you would have dealt it in an excellent way and hopefully not sold me a faulty back (it took a number of months before I realised it did not do cold weather, and indeed I'm sure one of your points is test driving in -30C before selling or gladly take on the repair cost if you missed it even after expired warranty), but I am not the US, and import taxes are real bad. The type of dealer you represent is rare around here.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 17, 2014, 12:51:20 pm
Our checklist in-house for evaluating pre-owned backs has about 25 more items on it :). But then again, having sold more digital backs than anyone, we know nearly every single thing that can go wrong with them :).

Wow, 25 items :) I guess the products would look bad if that ever went public ;)
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 17, 2014, 01:17:57 pm
Hi,

Getting back to the issue, I would point out that almost all photographic equipment has a stated operating range of 0C to 40C. As far as I recall from your description, you had a repair (exchanging the E-box). After the repair you claimed:

1) That the repair did not resolve the issue
2) You have found out that the dealer sent erroneous description of the error to Leaf.

After the repair, you claimed warranty on repair, but:

1) As your problems appeared below 0C, that is outside environmental specifications, your claim was rejected by Leaf (or the dealer)
2) Once you could demonstrate that the problem at 1C (within environmental specifications) the problem was resolved as a warranty issue on the original repair.

All that process took something like 6-9 months?

Is that a somewhat correct description?

Best regards
Erik



Doug, you know as much as me that my hassle is a demonstration of the failure of Leaf's European dealer network and has nothing to do with me buying privately. I turned to the designated dealer first thing when issues appeared, payed the full repair fee and still the problem could not be solved. I tried two dealers or maybe three, don't remember now, only when I short cut them and sent a video to Leaf centrally demonstrating the issue it was promptly resolved.

That Leaf Aptus does not work in cold weather may be your opinion, but it's not Leaf's and they did fix it when faced with the fact. I think the truth is they have sample variation, but take responsibility if someone gets into trouble. There was a thick layer of sluggishness on the dealer level to get through first though.

I don’t doubt that you would have dealt it in an excellent way and hopefully not sold me a faulty back (it took a number of months before I realised it did not do cold weather, and indeed I'm sure one of your points is test driving in -30C before selling), but I am not the US, and import taxes are real bad. The type of dealer you represent is rare around here.

Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: eronald on October 17, 2014, 01:34:55 pm
Erik,

 Normal life for tourist varies between -20 or so and +40 in the shade (add sun) with high humidity.
 Most japanese cameras take this without issues.
 Cameras are outdoor equipment.
Edmund


Hi,

Getting back to the issue, I would point out that almost all photographic equipment has a stated operating range of 0C to 40C. As far as I recall from your description, you had a repair (exchanging the E-box). After the repair you claimed:

1) That the repair did not resolve the issue
2) You have found out that the dealer sent erroneous description of the error to Leaf.

After the repair, you claimed warranty on repair, but:

1) As your problems appeared below 0C, that is outside environmental specifications, your claim was rejected by Leaf (or the dealer)
2) Once you could demonstrate that the problem at 1C (within environmental specifications) the problem was resolved as a warranty issue on the original repair.

All that process took something like 6-9 months?

Is that a somewhat correct description?

Best regards
Erik



Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 17, 2014, 01:37:20 pm
You may very well have a better memory than me :-) there was so much happening that I can have mixed up it a bit. That I could demonstrate the issue above 0C even after E-box replacement did help. I think Leaf centrally has an ambition to support cold weather conditions, got that impression when talking to them, but on the road there was some interesting back stabbing by Phase One support engineers claiming the Aptus was flawed and Phase One product would have been better.

My current Aptus works in -30C by the way, I've tried.

Hi,

Getting back to the issue, I would point out that almost all photographic equipment has a stated operating range of 0C to 40C. As far as I recall from your description, you had a repair (exchanging the E-box). After the repair you claimed:

1) That the repair did not resolve the issue
2) You have found out that the dealer sent erroneous description of the error to Leaf.

After the repair, you claimed warranty on repair, but:

1) As your problems appeared below 0C, that is outside environmental specifications, your claim was rejected by Leaf (or the dealer)
2) Once you could demonstrate that the problem at 1C (within environmental specifications) the problem was resolved as a warranty issue on the original repair.

All that process took something like 6-9 months?

Is that a somewhat correct description?

Best regards
Erik



Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 17, 2014, 02:03:25 pm
Hi,

When I bought my P45+, my initial idea was to buy a H2 with a corresponding Aptus back and use the old V-lenses with an adapter.  A friend in Bavaria suggested I would be better of with a P45+ and a V-series "Blad". That, and your experience made me a P45+ owner. A happy owner, BTW.

Your problems with the Aptus may have been rare. On the other hand, the P-series has a very good reputation.

Best regards
Erik



You may very well have a better memory than me :-) there was so much happening that I can have mixed up it a bit. That I could demonstrate the issue above 0C even after E-box replacement did help. I think Leaf centrally has an ambition to support cold weather conditions, got that impression when talking to them, but on the road there was some interesting back stabbing by Phase One support engineers claiming the Aptus was flawed and Phase One product would have been better.

My current Aptus works in -30C by the way, I've tried.

Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 17, 2014, 03:39:42 pm
Hi Edmund,

Yes, I am ware of that. But, if you read the manual, it say 0-40 degrees C, exceptions are rare. Very clearly, equipment operates outside that range.

On the other hand, my impression was that Anders (Torger) was denied warranty repair for issues slightly below 0C, but he got his repair when he could demonstrate the problem at +1C. That indicates that Leaf sees the issue as a contractual point.

Now, it is quite obvious that Nikon and Canon work below zero centigrade, else we would not have coverage from the winter Olympics. I am also in doubt if Canon or Nikon professional services ask you if you happened to use their equipment below zero degree Celsius before fixing it.

Best regards
Erik




Erik,

 Normal life for tourist varies between -20 or so and +40 in the shade (add sun) with high humidity.
 Most japanese cameras take this without issues.
 Cameras are outdoor equipment.
Edmund


Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 17, 2014, 09:53:10 pm
Thanks for that dreidesq. I will try this out tomorrow. But I think I prefer getting the image made in camera without resorting to "virtual" long exposure. I'll check and get back to you.

Just to throw in my 2 pence worth. If you don't mind doing 4-8 shots of the same scene at 8-20 secs exposure each time and stack them in Photoshop you will get a noiseless very long exposure picture without the need for buying a P+ back.

http://www.verdantvista.com/tut9

or you could just shoot film.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwet9oooF7M
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 17, 2014, 09:57:21 pm
If 22 megapixels is enough for you to start with it can be mentioned that much of the angst related to poor LCDs, having the sharpest lenses etc go away.

With 22 megapixels the focusing challenge becomes less of an issue and you don't feel the same need to pixelpeep directly on the back. In difficult conditions you can stop down to f/16 and not really loose any resolution.

While the Kodak sensors indeed are a bit aging, they have a good reputation concerning a nice saturated "film-like" look, and indeed they're good at a slide-film type of look. This you can find also in old CCD-based DSLRs Kodak made once. Incorporating that look in your style will put good use of the back.

Use grads and strive for natural looks rather than crazy overly tonemapped stuff and the DR won't be a problem either.

You might be interested in using the same type of grad technique I do. Tech cameras need a calibration shot (the one with the white LCC card in front) and I shoot that with the grad filter still on. Then when you apply the LCC the grad will disappear too, you get a flat file with better exposed foreground. Then you can tonemap that in whatever way you want in your raw converter, which indeed to me often means applying a virtual grad again as the central part of tonemapping. The advantage with this technique is that you can apply more precise tonemapping and you can have sharper and stronger grads in the field and if it's not perfectly placed it does not really matter, as you cancel it out. The disadvantage is that you lose a little bit of the joy of "finishing the image in camera" which for some is the very reason they use grads.

I've taken note of this technique, Anders. I'm still only halfway through your Linhof techno article.

I would certainly prefer using layered grads to control highlights in an image but this aspect of photography is very new to me and I'm glad to have found a bunch of knowledgeable people on this forum to point out the day to day challenges and techniques used to overcome them. This stuff is never covered in the marketing videos (of which there are very few in the medium format space) and probably buried in the manuals.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 17, 2014, 10:02:01 pm
About long exposure, if you do them by applying a 10 stop filter, ie shoot in daylight, you're fine, but if you're really shooting at night and you intend to focus with ground glass you're up for some challenges. I manage to focus my SK35 on the Linhof bright groundglass in conditions so dark that it would require 4 minutes exposure, but it's not super-easy, and you need to do tricks like focus directly on center and compose afterwards, and test-shoot to really see where the edges of the frame are as you can't really see that on the ground glass.

I have a strong headlamp with me so if I need to focus on something close rather than infinity it's okay. A laser pointer can work too, but I find it easier to focus on real subjects lit by a lamp, and I need a headlamp as a part of the safety equipment anyway. If you have nighttime city-scapes there's always street lamps to focus at. But pitch-dark kind of shooting conditions is not going to be fun with ground glass. Then having an RM3Di or Alpa or Cambo and just dial in the hyperfocal or infinity will certainly be appreciated. You will still have issues to see where the corners of the frame will get though.

With the Linhof Techno I know some actually use the infinity stops in their traditional use, ie as stops for hyperfocal or inifinty for a certain lens and aperture, but I find them extremely hard to place with the precision I'd like to have, so I only use two pairs for parallelism guarantee, one placed for short lenses and one pair for long. I think the design of the rail on the Techno is flawed, they use a traditional film design (infinity stops, spring-loaded mechanism, just as they've always had on their Technika 4x5" field cameras) that is not adequate for the extreme parallelism precision we've come to expect in digital. Using of infinity stops works around that flaw though, and in total I think the Techno is still the best field view camera for landscape work you can get for digital.

Cheers Torger. I ran into this very real problem with my DSLR two days ago. In an impromptu midnight outing with a few friends I tried to do some long exposure photography and forgot to take my torchlight in a hurry. It was then an exercise in roughly estimating distance to the subject and setting focus. I haven't had a look at the pics on anything besides the back LCD.

This is obviously an area that needs work for me. Perhaps laser distance metering is the way to go. Will the laser with a HPF ring work on the Techno?
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 17, 2014, 10:04:49 pm
I've come a bit late to this thread so this may have been said before but if you have the readies then Mamiya's with a P25 back or similar can be had for a reasonable money. There are also 50mm Mamiya-Sekor 'shift' lenses to be had if you look for them, I have one which is wasted in a way as I use it only as a wide angle lens, and very nice it is to. My personal advice would be to just get out there and do it, it's the best way to work out what you really want.

Many thanks for the encouraging words, Justin! I ended up losing an auction on eBay yesterday due to some last second internet lag trickery! It was a great deal P25+ on a Mamiya 645 df and 80mm F2.8 that sold for AUD$5500....

I now have to play the waiting game for these increasingly hard to come by plus backs from PhaseOne. I'm hoping the dealers I have been in touch with can source something like that for me.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 17, 2014, 10:07:40 pm
Actually, the ideal solution for *cheap* tethered shooting may be the old Imacon/Hasselblad backs with ImageBank which trade at 1/2 the price of the untethered CF backs, or the Leaf Valeos, or even the various tethered backs marketed by Sinar and designed by Jenoptik. An advantage is that the files will be cleaner as there are less electronics in the back. For all I know some of these may even do a form of liveview on the computer.

There is a world of cheap kludgy solutions out there, based on out of maintenance products that work fine, but have no repair workshop, and mostly rely on obsolete software. Anyone who wants to go there needs real help eg. in locating cables and spares, not forum advice. A person buying a car that is 30 years old faces very different issues from somebody who bought the car new and kept it running for 30 years. In terms of electronics, an Imacon back is now the equivalent of a 1985 car.

Is it really the intention of this forum to let a newbie get lost in this labyrinth, or will someone tell him to get a dealer to help him?  -Steve, Doug let an honest devil appear now!  

Edmund

Thanks again for looking out Edmund. I have been advised time and again to seek a dealer's assistance and Doug reached out to me as well with some sound advice. I'm hoping to not completely cheap out and get an arcane back that may end up with problems a few months after purchase. I understand the concept of buying well the first time so I'm hoping that shelling out that little bit more will give me many years of pleasure (like my D600 continues to do).

Also, I don't see myself shooting tethered in the field. It has to be a standalone system.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 17, 2014, 10:19:42 pm
It is unfortunate that taxes and duty on imports over AU$1000 are quite high, Doug.

Your active participation with your consumers and knowledge, if I were in the US or making a visit, I would buy from DT in a heartbeat!!

Ironic that you'd say dealers would push FUD about private deals. One man's "FUD" is another mans "accurate information about the pros and cons of purchasing different ways".

You bought privately and spent many MONTHS, a good amount of cash, and a lot of frustration.

If you had purchased from DT we would have been glad to provide you options to evaluate how well your intended solution worked in your intended use-case (cold Swedish weather) to make sure the product you were after was the right one for you. Then if you ran into problems after purchase we know the repair techs and repair procedures extremely well, and would do everything we could to help make that process easy for you (we'd have no problem volunteering to do testing involving a freezer to reproduce specific cold-weather failures) and if with that knowledge and help a standard repair didn't seem to do the trick we'd find some creative solution to make sure you were taken care of.  In no case would you have banged your head against the wall for months. You may well have paid a bit more (in our case our pre-owned gear is pretty reasonably priced IMO, but we can't always match the single lowest eBay price at a given moment), but your forehead would have felt much better. If someone purchases from us and needs help I can't promise the world (e.g. out of warranty repairs still cost money, things still break, especially things like shutters) but I do have pretty large leeway on making sure they are happy with their purchase. If someone purchases elsewhere and needs help my leeway is not as large.

To be clear, most such private sales are entirely hassle free. But there is no question the level of confidence you have of a hassle free transaction and life of ownership is better when buying from a good dealer than when buying e.g. from eBay. This is not FUD; this is just a fact.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 17, 2014, 10:24:00 pm
Thanks for those links Erik! Looks like essential reading for anyone getting started like me

Hi Anders,

I guess that this may be the case.

Joseph Holmes posted a few articles on the issue:

http://www.josephholmes.com/news-sharpmediumformat.html
http://www.josephholmes.com/news-medformatprecision.html

But, that was back in 2009, things may have been improved.

I don't think dealers are spreading FUD on the issue. On the other hand I must say that I am not happy with the dealer system we are dealing with. Obviously some dealers are ver knowledgeable, but quite obviously not all dealers are. But, if there is an issue with a camera or a back, I would say that any user should be entitled to send it to the manufacturer for service. Also, service costs on MFD seem to be unproportionally high.

That said, my experience with my Phase One Dealer, D3 Image AB in Sweden, has been positive. But I only bought some cables and viewfinder masks. They delivered efficiently and at decent price.

Best regards
Erik



Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 18, 2014, 02:50:10 am
You can't do HPF ring focusing on a Techno or other view camera. You need an Alpa, Arca or Cambo pancake for that. You might be using infinity stops on the Techno and some do but they're hard to place and hard to move.

If you shoot in dark conditions the next step is that you might be interested in night skies, and then you need high ISO and large aperture lenses helps too. Shooting northern lights is ISO 1600 15 sec type of exposures. One idea is to use your DSLR for the long exposure / night work and the MF system for the rest.

The Techno is at its best when you want many lenses (low cost lens mount, and compact for the longer lenses) and want to have flexible movements on all lenses. It's at its worst if you want to shoot wide angle in dark conditions. Long exposure with 10 stop filters is fine though as you then shoot in quite bright conditions. The new CMOS backs drops the need of ground glass focusing and also gives you a bit of "night vision" thanks to their very good ISO performance, so view cameras seem to have a bright future (I just want to see a CMOS with better angular response, then I can relax...).
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: eronald on October 18, 2014, 03:56:07 am
Our checklist in-house for evaluating pre-owned backs has about 25 more items on it :). But then again, having sold more digital backs than anyone, we know nearly every single thing that can go wrong with them :).

Ah it is always a pleasure to see our favorite devil appear, enshrouded in his cloud of sulfurous smoke :)
I'm actually puzzled that nobody is specializing in low-end obsolete backs - maybe I should do so myself - there is always room in hell for more staff ... and customers :)

Edmund
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 18, 2014, 04:16:11 am
Ah it is always a pleasure to see our favorite devil appear, enshrouded in his cloud of sulfurous smoke :)
I'm actually puzzled that nobody is specializing in low-end obsolete backs - maybe I should do so myself - there is always room in hell for more staff ... and customers :)

I think Mr Rib does?

Anyway I too think there's a market. The thing is that not everyone think that the highest resolution is most important, many find it fun to play around with the classic systems. The image quality is good too. Ever since 2003-2004 image quality has been at a very high level. Sure today you can pick up an D810 and exceed that in many aspects, but the absolute image quality of this older backs are still what it is, very good.

And with a good image quality there's people interested in playing around a bit with something different. A friend of mine has a Sinar, Hassy V and a Mamiya RZ system for his 22 megapixel V-mount back and having fun with that. The total system cost is about what a couple of lenses for a Hassy H costs.

A problem will be to reach out to customers though. It's a special type of photographer that likes this kind of stuff, and not everyone knows that they're one of them either. You probably need the world, not just local.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: eronald on October 18, 2014, 05:02:02 am
Mr. Rib seems to be into price gouging as far as I can see.
Doug and Steve are best-of-breed, but they obviously deal in stuff which has a minimum price well above scrap.

I think there is room at the very bottom, also selling cables, compatible batteries etc.

Edmund

I think Mr Rib does?

Anyway I too think there's a market. The thing is that not everyone think that the highest resolution is most important, many find it fun to play around with the classic systems. The image quality is good too. Ever since 2003-2004 image quality has been at a very high level. Sure today you can pick up an D810 and exceed that in many aspects, but the absolute image quality of this older backs are still what it is, very good.

And with a good image quality there's people interested in playing around a bit with something different. A friend of mine has a Sinar, Hassy V and a Mamiya RZ system for his 22 megapixel V-mount back and having fun with that. The total system cost is about what a couple of lenses for a Hassy H costs.

A problem will be to reach out to customers though. It's a special type of photographer that likes this kind of stuff, and not everyone knows that they're one of them either. You probably need the world, not just local.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 20, 2014, 03:23:13 am
A word about the dealer thing; although I don't particularly like the costly dealer business model the established MF players are doing (it must be turned into a volume model if prices is ever going down to at least Pentax 645z levels), and I don't like being used as an example of a failed second hand deal when I in fact think it was an example of a failed dealer structure, I do think Doug and Steve present on this forum present a knowledge unparalleled in any dealer I've been in contact with. I'm sure they're great dealers, I've heard nothing but good about them, and I've seen they've had quite attractive second hand deals too. Most importantly they seem to be interested in matching product with the customer's need and budget. It's very different from what I've got here in Sweden, Norway and Germany.

I do like to hear what users think, which don't have a salesman's perspective. However, many users are actually worse than salesmen, it's very common that people get into the mode "because I've bought this thing, it's be perfect" and you get nothing but praise. For example you can hear people say that the SK35 is working excellently with their IQ180. It's not until you really press them you realize that they never shift more than 5mm because outside that it image quality fails due to heavy color cast. It may be fine for them because they don't really need shift in their shooting style, but can be a disaster to someone else. I know both Doug and Steve are both very aware of these types of limitations and will point them out.

I'm the type of user that have no problems with pointing out issues in my (or others) gear. Therefore I may come across as a bit negative, some think this whole MF forum is a bit MF-negative, but I think when you're an amateur with limited budget it's very important to think over all the limitations and not exaggerate the advantages so you don't get disappointed. With the right expectations you can be very happy with older MF gear and get new creative possibilities not available in 135 system, but you always lose more features than you gain so you have to value what you gain and be able to live without features you lose.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Paul2660 on October 20, 2014, 09:39:18 am
I think Paul is talking about back handling, ie how the histogram shows. At the raw level all backs behave in the same way a simple linear filling of a channel and than clip straight off (non-linear highlight response is indeed coming to sensors, but it's not in our cameras yet).

Most highlight "blinkies" show blinking a bit early, for example based on a calculated luminance for the set white balance, rather than show exact raw clipping. The P45+ has more than one stop more sensitive green channel  than the red in daylight, while the Dalsas have more balanced RGB sensitivity in daylight (which also counts for the older 7.2um Dalsa I'm using). Maybe this difference make the P45+ show blinkies later than the Dalsa backs? An ideally exposed red channel will likely mean a clipped green channel on the P45+, while the "daylight-balanced" Dalsa can expose all channels well (simplified of course, depends on what colors you have in the scene etc).

This difference in relative sensitivity might also affect how highlight reconstruction works in Capture One, I don't know. I'm sure Pauls observations are valid, he has a lot of experience with this product and others, but he's talking about handling in the Capture One workflow rather than what's exactly happening on the raw level.

Just having more noisy shadows could also make it appear that you have less highlights as you'd want to expose further to the right.

I think it's okay to use the "noisy" sensors, but be aware that 1) I use grad filters and 2) I have a shooting style which prefer softer light conditions and often not any visible sky at all and 3) my post-processing style is such that I don't push shadows that much.

It's also important to learn by testing how the highlight blinkies and histogram works. I know I can push a little past the blinkies on my Aptus and still not clip. Rather than a white-balance dependent luminance level I'd prefer to have true raw blinkies with red=all channels clipped, orange=two channels clipped and yellow=one channel clipped, but I guess manufacturers consider that to be too user-unfriendly...

Hi Torger:

Actually I was referring to the fact that the P45+ would blow a highlight period.  On the LCD screen, if you even saw a blinking highlight, then when I got back to work the file in post that would be 255-255-255, totally non recoverable and at times pink.  So on a nice day, with a partly cloudy sky, if I exposed such that I saw any blinking highlight, (as I remember they were blinking in red, but it may have been black), I knew that I had to work up a different exposure until I found one where I had no highlight warning, this totally of course meant my shadows were worthless and underexposed as much as 1 to 1.5 stops.  So the solution was a exposure bracketing.  Working with water, in the 1 to 5 second range was the same issue even worse.

As Bart and and Eric have mentioned, C1 opens the raw files with seemingly a push if you use the "film curve", and you could go back to the linear curve.  This would help in about 30% of the shots, however I never liked the output from the linear curve and always used the film curve. 

If you took the shot that was correctly exposed for highlights, thus considerably underexposed, then the shadow recovery was gone, no details, tons of noise and smearing.  These were all shot at iso 50 or 100 on the P45+ with the most current firmware that was available at the time. 

Now take this solution to a tech camera, where you are forced to add the mandatory LCC frame and start bracketing for exposure you ware talking a ton of frames for 1 image and even more if you are working with shifts.  To me way too much work in post.  Yes I agree by chip design the 39MP Kodak was more tech camera friendly in relation to shifts, as you did not see the same issues the Dalsa chips have, but I still feel the Dalsa chip is the overall better solution when all aspects of the exposure are taken into consideration.  Dalsa allows a for a much better highlight recovery, even with a lot of the sky blinking with highlight warnings.  Thus your shadow areas have much more life and less noise.

Eric has shown many times his comparison of an A99 and P45+ shot where he attempted to recovery the shadows, in his straight forward test, you can see just how poorly the P45+ was able to handle any type of push.  Thus again, the shadow area had to be exposed directly which would result in a blown highlight if there were any parts of the image that would be involved, water, sky etc.

Now also add to the fact that with a tech camera, you are currently forced to a copol shutter solution in 95% of the lenses in use.  The Copol offers no 1/3 or 1/2 shutter speeds, so this problem will be even worse.  At least with the DF body, you had the ability to get the in between shutter speeds, and having these can make a huge difference, as there is quite a bit of light between 1/15 and 1/30, but if you could have 1/20th or 1/25th you might have had better results. 

I am not trying to trash the Kodak chip, just trying to point out what I feel are real world issues and limitations.  In a post on getdpi you mentioned, the Hasselbald users of both the 39 and 50MP Kodaks seem to have less issues, some of this may be because I believe most of them are not on tech camera solutions.  Phase One has always had an easier back to move to tech cameras, be it the P45+ or a Dalsa chip.

I also strongly don't feel that the long exposure capabilities of the P45+ are worth what they were in 2008.  Back then the P45+ was the only solution as even 35mm DSLR"s couldn't really get to 1 hour with any clean exposures and they didn't begin to have 39MP.  This has changed so much to the opposite, as pretty much any modern 35mm DSLR from Sony, Canon or Nikon can easily make an equal or cleaner 1 hour exposure than the P45+, and with Nikon have almost the same MP's.   For exposures in the 1" to 15 sec range the DSLR I feel is superior as you can turn off the dark frame exposure and still have a very clean image.  Don't forget, which many seem to, that the temperature range of the P45+ for  1 hours exposures is 69 degrees F and much less than 100% humidity.  If you tried to use a P45+ in Arkansas or anywhere in the south of the US in late spring or summer outdoors, you would not be able to get anywhere close to 1 hours, more like 15 minutes.

Purchases of MF backs, is so much more difficult since you just can't walk into a local camera store and try one out, and you may also need to use some pretty specialized camera equipment.  I know just how friggin hard it is for a shop like mine to get a rental on any Phase One back due to the insurance, net it's impossible, so if I want to see or try out a product, I have to travel to either NY city, (not going to happen) or Atlanta, a bit more possible.  So for the OP, I do hope you can find someone in your area that either has one of the products you are interested in or a good dealer with demo capabilities. 

Paul
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 20, 2014, 10:45:30 am
Thanks for the detailed clarification Paul.

Pink highlights is the classical sign of a clipped channel (as green is clipped first the result becomes pink). That blinking highlight actually means clipped channel in raw I see as an advantage, rather than the typical that blinking highlight means "possibly clipping, but you might push it a bit more".

I'm a bit surprised though that there would be such a big difference in noise, I don't see that in the example files I have but your real-world long-term use beats looking at a few raw files.

There's no doubt that the Dalsa has lower noise, but neither what I've seen in casual looking at files or DxO measurements indicate that there should be a large difference. The only thing I can think of is that maybe the difference in red channel sensitivity is doing something spooky with the highlights in Capture One....

Could be that Phocus is better at dealing with "Kodak highlights" than Capture One? But yes it's true that most Hasselblad users are studio photographers which put sensor much less to the test than on landscape on a tech cam.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 20, 2014, 10:52:20 am
Thanks Anders, then I misunderstood the usage of HPF rings.

Also, I see the theme of the DSLR being the goto platform for long exposures (and night photography) when compared to past MF backs. With that in mind, if I do not necessarily need one of the plus backs. Would a P25 be sufficient for most intents and purposes?

You can't do HPF ring focusing on a Techno or other view camera. You need an Alpa, Arca or Cambo pancake for that. You might be using infinity stops on the Techno and some do but they're hard to place and hard to move.

If you shoot in dark conditions the next step is that you might be interested in night skies, and then you need high ISO and large aperture lenses helps too. Shooting northern lights is ISO 1600 15 sec type of exposures. One idea is to use your DSLR for the long exposure / night work and the MF system for the rest.

The Techno is at its best when you want many lenses (low cost lens mount, and compact for the longer lenses) and want to have flexible movements on all lenses. It's at its worst if you want to shoot wide angle in dark conditions. Long exposure with 10 stop filters is fine though as you then shoot in quite bright conditions. The new CMOS backs drops the need of ground glass focusing and also gives you a bit of "night vision" thanks to their very good ISO performance, so view cameras seem to have a bright future (I just want to see a CMOS with better angular response, then I can relax...).
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 20, 2014, 11:07:14 am
Would a P25 be sufficient for most intents and purposes?

If you drop long exposure requirement, you get a world of "junk" you can wade through ;). My favourite of course is the Leaf Aptus 75, 33 megapixel often at the same price as 22. I've had some bad experience in cold weather with it leading me to think that there's sample variation (some can do cold weather, others can't, my current Aptus 75 does -30C without issues), but being in Australia I find that unlikely to be a problem. You have the Hasselblad CF backs, and of course the P25.

Anyway if 22 megapixels is enough, yes a P25 will work out well. I still think you need wakeup procedure for that back, something you won't be needing on the Aptus 22 or 75, and not the Hasselblad CF backs in most situations.

If you're going to buy second hand it's good to have your eyes open for several options as it's a small market and you may not find one specific back at one specific point in time.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Paul2660 on October 20, 2014, 11:15:20 am
Thanks for the detailed clarification Paul.

Pink highlights is the classical sign of a clipped channel (as green is clipped first the result becomes pink). That blinking highlight actually means clipped channel in raw I see as an advantage, rather than the typical that blinking highlight means "possibly clipping, but you might push it a bit more".

I'm a bit surprised though that there would be such a big difference in noise, I don't see that in the example files I have but your real-world long-term use beats looking at a few raw files.

There's no doubt that the Dalsa has lower noise, but neither what I've seen in casual looking at files or DxO measurements indicate that there should be a large difference. The only thing I can think of is that maybe the difference in red channel sensitivity is doing something spooky with the highlights in Capture One....

Could be that Phocus is better at dealing with "Kodak highlights" than Capture One? But yes it's true that most Hasselblad users are studio photographers which put sensor much less to the test than on landscape on a tech cam.

In 2008 the P45+ was ahead of the competition in resolution, 2x over Canon's 1ds MKIII, which had CMOS and over better DR.  I also feel that P45+ files processed in C1 7 or 8 have a much better look to them, as I have been re-working many files from my P45+.  But the highlight shadows problems are still there.  

I agree 100% that the Kodaks by design are better suited for tech lenses.  I saw this with my P45+ on an SK43 and SK35, as I was able to get shifts of up to 12mm on the SK35 and 18mm on the SK43, which just are not possible with the Dalsa chips.  But I still prefer the DR of the Dalsa and have come to live with the limits on movements.  

If the P45+ had USB2 or 3 and would tether to a Surface Pro or similar device, then I might have a more open opinion, but on the LCD of the P45+, it's next to impossible to check focus at 100% and when you do the number of button pushes to move around a file is way way to many and you can just watch the battery move to zero.  This is all coming from a tech camera solution opinion.

Eric has shown excellent examples of what he can get with a P45+ on Hasselbald, and he is using all manual focus lenses and the ground glass in the Hasselbald optical finder.  

So it's more about what the photographer is after, and what their planned  camera solution.  The OP had originally shown interest in a Tech solution and I made most of my posts based on that.  Nothing worse than spending a day in the field and shooting 200 frames only to find that 50% or more are just a tad out of focus.  

I know many folks either hate or don't believe the DxO scores, however in my photography I have found them to be very very accurate on just what DR you can expect.  The score of the P45+ I believe was 77 and the P65+ was 89,  That's a huge difference IMO, and from my real world results I would agree with their scores 100%.

Paul
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 20, 2014, 11:54:53 am
Took another look at test files I have, and I'd say that there's roughly 1 - 1.5 stop advantage to the P65+ over the P45+ in terms of shadow noise at pixel peep, which translates to roughly 1 - 1.5 stop more usable dynamic range, which if you takes resolution into account grows more. So yes I agree it's a big difference.

It depends on shooting style however how relevant that will be though. My current Aptus 75 is about at the same level as P45+ in performance, a tiny bit better (but within error marginal), but I feel that has adequate performance.

That said I shall say it must be a low contrast condition if *not* using a grad on a shot with sky, and I more often shoot scenes which do not have sky in them than with, which makes me less dependent on DR. Some may find the P65+ to be low enough in noise to ditch the grads, and that can make a real difference in handling in the field.

I think that all the Kodak backs (the 50 megapixel are at the same level as the 39 megapixel) plus older Dalsas like my own should be handled a bit like slide film, ie if it looks underexposed on the LCD, you're going to have noise in your image after postprocessing. So you need to use grads just as with film.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: eronald on October 20, 2014, 01:59:13 pm
The P65 is really a step up from the P45+ in terms of practical DR
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 20, 2014, 02:00:10 pm
Hi Paul,

I know how to read DxO-mark, when I bought my P45+ I knew pretty well that it was a relatively old back and also that the P65+ was a much better performer. I would preferred the P65+ but the 10 k$US was about what I was willing to pay for a back, the P65+ were quite a bit more expensive than that. That said it was still on Phase One's price list, and I was offered a trade in something like 15k$USD if I upgraded to an IQ-260.


At the time I bought it there were much noise about the DR advantage MFD, some author here on LuLa talked about 6EV advantage of MFD. That statement together with statement of the superiority of 16-bit devices vs. 14 bit devices kicked of some of my interest in MFD, because I could find an plausible explanation. Of course, I knew that MFD had a significant resolution advantage. I also happened to have a couple of Hasselblad lenses I liked and wanted to use them to their full potential.

So much of my testing was in the critical and wanting to find out mode, that is not in the "I just bought a new fantastic toy for a lot of money" mode.

Very clearly, the shadows are quite a bit more noisy on the P45+ compared to the Sony Alpha 99 I have. But, I have not had that much problem with overexposed sky. The blinkies and histogram work reasonably well for me, if I can see them, that is.

Now, I used mostly Lightroom as I never got friendly with Capture One. With Capture One I mostly used the linear response curve. But I don't think I had bad sky colour on either. But I have some lock in with Lightroom, since I have used it since it's inception (public beta 3), so Lightroom suits me extremely well.

Now, after shooting with the P450 for 15 months I don't feel that DR limits my work. Sometimes I would like better darks but normally it is no problem.

My guess would be that P45+ is pretty OK to find out about MFD. Expensive, considering that something like 3-4 very capable DSLR-s could be bought for the same price.

I would expect that the P25 is like the P45+, with fatter pixels. If the buyer doesn't care about resolution, the only disadvantage of the P25 is that it produces more aliasing and has even more tendency to moiré.

So my take in short is that the P45+ does a decent job at an indecent price. Newer MFD-s probably do a very good job at higher prices.

Torger has a point that Leaf Aptus has a lower price point. Personally, I started looking at the Aptus originally. But Anders Torger's experience of dealership frightened me quite a bit. Some good folks, like Stefan Steib suggested that the P45+ was one of the better backs, so when I found out Mr. Rib had one in good shape I opted for it instead. One thing I didn't like on the Aptus was the fan. Anders knows what is so devilish about that fan, I presume:-)

Best regards
Erik






Hi Torger:

Actually I was referring to the fact that the P45+ would blow a highlight period.  On the LCD screen, if you even saw a blinking highlight, then when I got back to work the file in post that would be 255-255-255, totally non recoverable and at times pink.  So on a nice day, with a partly cloudy sky, if I exposed such that I saw any blinking highlight, (as I remember they were blinking in red, but it may have been black), I knew that I had to work up a different exposure until I found one where I had no highlight warning, this totally of course meant my shadows were worthless and underexposed as much as 1 to 1.5 stops.  So the solution was a exposure bracketing.  Working with water, in the 1 to 5 second range was the same issue even worse.

As Bart and and Eric have mentioned, C1 opens the raw files with seemingly a push if you use the "film curve", and you could go back to the linear curve.  This would help in about 30% of the shots, however I never liked the output from the linear curve and always used the film curve. 

If you took the shot that was correctly exposed for highlights, thus considerably underexposed, then the shadow recovery was gone, no details, tons of noise and smearing.  These were all shot at iso 50 or 100 on the P45+ with the most current firmware that was available at the time. 

Now take this solution to a tech camera, where you are forced to add the mandatory LCC frame and start bracketing for exposure you ware talking a ton of frames for 1 image and even more if you are working with shifts.  To me way too much work in post.  Yes I agree by chip design the 39MP Kodak was more tech camera friendly in relation to shifts, as you did not see the same issues the Dalsa chips have, but I still feel the Dalsa chip is the overall better solution when all aspects of the exposure are taken into consideration.  Dalsa allows a for a much better highlight recovery, even with a lot of the sky blinking with highlight warnings.  Thus your shadow areas have much more life and less noise.

Eric has shown many times his comparison of an A99 and P45+ shot where he attempted to recovery the shadows, in his straight forward test, you can see just how poorly the P45+ was able to handle any type of push.  Thus again, the shadow area had to be exposed directly which would result in a blown highlight if there were any parts of the image that would be involved, water, sky etc.

Now also add to the fact that with a tech camera, you are currently forced to a copol shutter solution in 95% of the lenses in use.  The Copol offers no 1/3 or 1/2 shutter speeds, so this problem will be even worse.  At least with the DF body, you had the ability to get the in between shutter speeds, and having these can make a huge difference, as there is quite a bit of light between 1/15 and 1/30, but if you could have 1/20th or 1/25th you might have had better results. 

I am not trying to trash the Kodak chip, just trying to point out what I feel are real world issues and limitations.  In a post on getdpi you mentioned, the Hasselbald users of both the 39 and 50MP Kodaks seem to have less issues, some of this may be because I believe most of them are not on tech camera solutions.  Phase One has always had an easier back to move to tech cameras, be it the P45+ or a Dalsa chip.

I also strongly don't feel that the long exposure capabilities of the P45+ are worth what they were in 2008.  Back then the P45+ was the only solution as even 35mm DSLR"s couldn't really get to 1 hour with any clean exposures and they didn't begin to have 39MP.  This has changed so much to the opposite, as pretty much any modern 35mm DSLR from Sony, Canon or Nikon can easily make an equal or cleaner 1 hour exposure than the P45+, and with Nikon have almost the same MP's.   For exposures in the 1" to 15 sec range the DSLR I feel is superior as you can turn off the dark frame exposure and still have a very clean image.  Don't forget, which many seem to, that the temperature range of the P45+ for  1 hours exposures is 69 degrees F and much less than 100% humidity.  If you tried to use a P45+ in Arkansas or anywhere in the south of the US in late spring or summer outdoors, you would not be able to get anywhere close to 1 hours, more like 15 minutes.

Purchases of MF backs, is so much more difficult since you just can't walk into a local camera store and try one out, and you may also need to use some pretty specialized camera equipment.  I know just how friggin hard it is for a shop like mine to get a rental on any Phase One back due to the insurance, net it's impossible, so if I want to see or try out a product, I have to travel to either NY city, (not going to happen) or Atlanta, a bit more possible.  So for the OP, I do hope you can find someone in your area that either has one of the products you are interested in or a good dealer with demo capabilities. 

Paul

Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 20, 2014, 02:29:33 pm
The P65 is really a step up from the P45+ in terms of practical DR

The P40+ does the same to a more modest price if you can live with the 44x33 size. An Aptus-II 8 (also 44x33) might be the cheapest option with Dalsa 6um tech. If one values DR much that can be an alternative.

The 22 megapixel backs have similar performance in this regard as the P45+.

My take on it is that you can make high quality images with the older tech and you can value SK wide compatibility more, but it's individual.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 20, 2014, 03:13:55 pm
Hi,

Older tech is quite a bit cheaper than old tech and old tech is cheaper than present tech.

But true Art never cares about Tech or Cost.

Best regards
Erik

The P40+ does the same to a more modest price if you can live with the 44x33 size. An Aptus-II 8 (also 44x33) might be the cheapest option with Dalsa 6um tech. If one values DR much that can be an alternative.

The 22 megapixel backs have similar performance in this regard as the P45+.

My take on it is that you can make high quality images with the older tech and you can value SK wide compatibility more, but it's individual.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: eronald on October 20, 2014, 05:14:26 pm
Hi,


But true Art never cares about Tech or Cost.

Best regards
Erik


Erik,

 You are starting to sound like the dark Phase strong with you is :)

Edmund
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 20, 2014, 05:22:20 pm
Yes Master Yoda,

May be I just feel out of Phase, some times.

Best regards
Erik

Erik,

 You are starting to sound like the dark Phase strong with you is :)

Edmund
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 21, 2014, 05:14:31 am
Alright gents,

I'm about to pull the trigger on a very economical P25 purchase tomorrow morning.

It is quite affordable that I'm hoping to get a Mamiya AFDII body with lenses into the deal.

I'll be doing some basic checks and looking at the RAW file for imperfections etc.

Is there anything specific I should look for? Is there a checklist that I could use?

Thanks and regards!!
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: synn on October 21, 2014, 05:16:51 am
AFD II is not supported by the new leaf shutter lenses or the latest backs. But I doubt that matters for your intended use case.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 21, 2014, 05:48:22 am
AFD II is not supported by the new leaf shutter lenses or the latest backs. But I doubt that matters for your intended use case.

Thanks for the info, Synn. You are right, I intend to get a technical camera eventually so this will tide me over until then.

Cheers
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 21, 2014, 06:29:09 am
Alright gents,

I'm about to pull the trigger on a very economical P25 purchase tomorrow morning.

It is quite affordable that I'm hoping to get a Mamiya AFDII body with lenses into the deal.

I'll be doing some basic checks and looking at the RAW file for imperfections etc.

Is there anything specific I should look for? Is there a checklist that I could use?

Thanks and regards!!

You can post a raw file to me and I'll have a look. If there's dead columns and stuff it can be calibrated out so you won't see it unless you disable the calibration data application which you can't do in most raw software. Maybe you can do it in RawDigger, not sure. I just modify the source code and recompile my own tools or RawTherapee when I do the check :-).

In addition you should look for scratches on the glass, shooting an LCC shot at small aperture is easiest for spotting but usually you should be able to see it just by looking close on the glass filter and see if there is any scratches.

See if the clock date is still working.

Check firmware version, hopefully it's the latest. It should be possible to upgrade otherwise, but I know there were a few of the older Phase One backs that would fail on firmware upgrade and needed to be sent in.

Otherwise if the back has been used before quite recently by the previous owner (and not just sitting on the shelf as a backup) and it has worked well and you trust that info you should be fine. While buying virtually unused gear (backup units) can be attractive for this old gear I think it feel safer if it has been used and proved working.

Also don't get dependent on the gear too early and prepare for a worst case that it will fail some time from now and you need to repair it (I don't know the exact status but I think most repairs should still be possible). It's an unlikely case, but it's just like making a private deal with a car or something, you need to accept some risk.

I don't know anything about the Mamiya body.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Chris Livsey on October 21, 2014, 10:35:34 am

See if the clock date is still working.


How?

My P20 if left without a battery "forgets" the time and needs a reset. If I change batteries I don't loose the time. I have not taken the trouble to quantify how long it takes to loose the time. Is this know , hence my how?

Is it wise if not using the back for say a week to leave the battery in or remove it?
( I am aware of the advice is to remove it if sending it by post etc but is that for fire risk?)


Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 21, 2014, 11:59:45 am
How?

My P20 if left without a battery "forgets" the time and needs a reset. If I change batteries I don't loose the time. I have not taken the trouble to quantify how long it takes to loose the time. Is this know , hence my how?

Is it wise if not using the back for say a week to leave the battery in or remove it?
( I am aware of the advice is to remove it if sending it by post etc but is that for fire risk?)

A good question indeed. Unfortunately I don't think there is a good way... maybe Doug or some dealer knows but they probably won't tell us :-). I think it's a quite typical behavior that date is held as long as there is an external battery there, but if left without battery or empty battery for a while it will lose date. How long "a while" is is variable of course... if buying a back it may not be so practical to check as it may take several hours or a few days before it loses time. I guess one will be left with asking the seller and hope he/she knows and doesn't lie. If the date doesn't work that could be a reason to get a lower price to finance a service to get it fixed, or just ignore it. I would probably ignore it, but try to get a few hundred bucks off the price.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Paul2660 on October 21, 2014, 12:38:21 pm
Older backs like the P20 or P45 had an internal battery which did not recharge. This battery failed after about 1.5 years and had to replaced by Phase. My P45 went back 2 times for it. If you leave a regular battery in the back it will keep the time current but once you replace main battery and leave it out a few minutes the time is lost.

I don't know what the IQ backs have but I assume it's a better design as I have not read many reports on IQ backs losing time.

Paul
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Justinr on October 21, 2014, 12:55:45 pm




(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fW6reTFNMFc/UvomfzStEbI/AAAAAAAAL4I/GrD-SUYRBL0/w653-h816-no/Textures.jpg)


Slight diversion if I may.

I've never been a fan of digital black and white but that rock pool picture has almost swayed me. It's a lovely shot and well finished. Well done!

Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Chris Livsey on October 21, 2014, 01:33:29 pm
If you leave a regular battery in the back it will keep the time current but once you replace main battery and leave it out a few minutes the time is lost.

Well I'm testing  ;D
10 mins no issue
30 mins no issue
Just running one hour now, bear in mind this is consecutive testing so only replaced the battery to see if time is lost.

I know it goes over a few days. I certainly won't be paying for a replacement as long as I can switch batteries without an issue. I have had the back about five years so it isn't a recent failure.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: JoeKitchen on October 21, 2014, 03:24:02 pm
Older backs like the P20 or P45 had an internal battery which did not recharge. This battery failed after about 1.5 years and had to replaced by Phase. My P45 went back 2 times for it. If you leave a regular battery in the back it will keep the time current but once you replace main battery and leave it out a few minutes the time is lost.

I don't know what the IQ backs have but I assume it's a better design as I have not read many reports on IQ backs losing time.

Paul


My back no longer holds the time and I do not see an issue with it.  I know when the image was taken, so I really don't care too much about it. 

I assume this has no effect on the images or IQ at all, right? 
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Paul2660 on October 21, 2014, 04:06:18 pm
My back no longer holds the time and I do not see an issue with it.  I know when the image was taken, so I really don't care too much about it. 

I assume this has no effect on the images or IQ at all, right? 

It should have no effect on the images. Firmware is not effected just the date info.  I agree not a huge deal but I  always had the battery (internal) replaced when the back was serviced.

Paul

Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Chris Livsey on October 21, 2014, 04:15:59 pm
I think checking is going to be an issue, battery out for two hours, still in time. So over three and a half hours with only reinserting to check. I know time goes when left a few days.
It takes seconds to reset the time, which has no effect on the image and I assume the exif can be changed anyway.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 22, 2014, 03:25:32 am
I took some photographs today on the P25 back, Anders. I'll send them to you when I get home. File sharing is blocked at work.

Please have a look and advise if it looks OK.

The glass looks good and I haven't checked the f22 aperture RAW files yet.

The back itself has gone through about 50000 shots and there is a problem though. The Firewire port wasn't working on his Mac. He was using a thunderbolt adapter from the P25 to his new Mac. It is possible that the back's Firewire port controller is not working any more.

I checked the firmware and it is at 3.3.4 while the latest s/w seems to be 3.3.6.

It takes good photographs and the sharpness is brilliant!! Its a great deal for the price including the body, spare batteries, L-plate etc etc.

You can post a raw file to me and I'll have a look. If there's dead columns and stuff it can be calibrated out so you won't see it unless you disable the calibration data application which you can't do in most raw software. Maybe you can do it in RawDigger, not sure. I just modify the source code and recompile my own tools or RawTherapee when I do the check :-).

In addition you should look for scratches on the glass, shooting an LCC shot at small aperture is easiest for spotting but usually you should be able to see it just by looking close on the glass filter and see if there is any scratches.

See if the clock date is still working.

Check firmware version, hopefully it's the latest. It should be possible to upgrade otherwise, but I know there were a few of the older Phase One backs that would fail on firmware upgrade and needed to be sent in.

Otherwise if the back has been used before quite recently by the previous owner (and not just sitting on the shelf as a backup) and it has worked well and you trust that info you should be fine. While buying virtually unused gear (backup units) can be attractive for this old gear I think it feel safer if it has been used and proved working.

Also don't get dependent on the gear too early and prepare for a worst case that it will fail some time from now and you need to repair it (I don't know the exact status but I think most repairs should still be possible). It's an unlikely case, but it's just like making a private deal with a car or something, you need to accept some risk.

I don't know anything about the Mamiya body.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 22, 2014, 03:28:31 am
Slight diversion if I may.

I've never been a fan of digital black and white but that rock pool picture has almost swayed me. It's a lovely shot and well finished. Well done!



Many thanks for your kind words, Justin.

Its one of my personal favourites due to the varying textures across the board but didn't seem to be a "crowd pleaser" :)

Glad you like it! In my pursuit of medium format digital backs, I stumbled across the Achromatic back from PhaseOne and was blown away by some of the work out there. Worth a google search if you need more convincing.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 22, 2014, 06:39:49 am
If you don't intend to tether it doesn't need to be a problem. For professional studio work tethering is a key feature, but for landscape out in the field it's not. I have never used the tethering on my current back.

Some do use tethering in the field, but I don't really like the idea of porting a laptop. If I could tether my old school back to my mobile phone and make use of the great mobile phone screen for faster and better sharpness checking that would be different, but there is no such adapters or software to do such a thing.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: synn on October 22, 2014, 08:34:13 am
Leaf Aptus backs used to tether to hp ipaqs, torger. Yaya probably can explain it further.
If you can find one on eBay, maybe it will prove useful in the field.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Paul2660 on October 22, 2014, 08:40:33 am
Actually, being able to tether in the field has revolutionized my shooting style.  Again hats off to Ken Doo for all his time spent writing about the Surface and tethering.

I realize with the older backs that only offer firewire this means a more cumbersome and larger laptop.

I now carry the Surface on on my trips including stream trips, it's an excellent solution in the field.

Paul
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: torger on October 22, 2014, 09:25:23 am
Leaf Aptus backs used to tether to hp ipaqs, torger. Yaya probably can explain it further.
If you can find one on eBay, maybe it will prove useful in the field.

Yep I knew about that, but an ancient HP Ipaq is not going to get any speedy useful high dpi touch-screen experience :-). In fact if I remember correctly it's only possible to check histogram and thumbnail, not sure it was possible to focus check. A fine thing with the Aptus is that the screen on the back itself actually is good enough for focus check which makes an extra screen less interesting.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 22, 2014, 09:46:10 am
If you don't intend to tether it doesn't need to be a problem. For professional studio work tethering is a key feature, but for landscape out in the field it's not. I have never used the tethering on my current back.

Some do use tethering in the field, but I don't really like the idea of porting a laptop. If I could tether my old school back to my mobile phone and make use of the great mobile phone screen for faster and better sharpness checking that would be different, but there is no such adapters or software to do such a thing.

I did some Googling and came up with this knowledge base article from Phase One. http://www.phaseone.com/Search/Article.aspx?articleid=1256&languageid=1 (http://www.phaseone.com/Search/Article.aspx?articleid=1256&languageid=1)

Seems like there is an issue with using Thunderbolt adapters for Firewire connection to the PhaseOne back. The simple fix is to switch the back to use its own battery instead of relying on the Firewire for power supply.

Going to try this tomorrow.
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Steve Hendrix on October 22, 2014, 11:57:03 am
I did some Googling and came up with this knowledge base article from Phase One. http://www.phaseone.com/Search/Article.aspx?articleid=1256&languageid=1 (http://www.phaseone.com/Search/Article.aspx?articleid=1256&languageid=1)

Seems like there is an issue with using Thunderbolt adapters for Firewire connection to the PhaseOne back. The simple fix is to switch the back to use its own battery instead of relying on the Firewire for power supply.

Going to try this tomorrow.


Or an ac powered firewire hub such as below:

https://captureintegration.com/product/fw800-firewire-powered-hub/


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 23, 2014, 01:53:59 am

Or an ac powered firewire hub such as below:

https://captureintegration.com/product/fw800-firewire-powered-hub/


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
'

Thanks Steve!
Title: Re: Request for advice getting started in digital medium format
Post by: Wolven on October 25, 2014, 11:46:41 pm
I wanted to thank everyone who provided great advise on this topic and gave me a good foundation to start off from. Just wanted to mention a special thanks to Anders for hand holding me through this purchase.

Went shooting this morning and got a few good ones. Attached one here (Its amateurish, but I love being one :))

Still learning to use the Mamiya as it is much older than the current slew of DSLRs but a force to be reckoned with, nevertheless.

Now onto a technical camera, but I don't see that happening for another 5 - 6 months. Until then, I'll get used to the current setup.

Rest assured I will be back asking more questions when the time comes. In the meantime, I once again thank the great community here who are extremely willing to help and have a sane and meaty discussion.

Cheers,
Arv

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-S8O4-VAw7Cg/VExn3vWWd_I/AAAAAAAASHM/0Us-t-619iY/w1238-h929-no/La-Perouse.jpg)