How are the Pentax Z645 owners feeling?

[synn]

I see that we end up in CCD vs CMOS, that the CCD offers a different look. Maybe it's texture-related? Just as with skin-tones I don't really have eyes for this either, but it would be interesting to know from those that do see this difference if Pentax 645z is more "DSLR-like" in look than the other CMOS alternatives such as IQ250, Credo 50 or Hasselblad H5D-50c?

I won't even pretend to be able to put all this into numbers and graphs, but the images from the Credo 50 (More specifically, Frank Doorhof's portraits) were the only ones where I saw this CMOS chip getting close to that "MF look".

[eronald]

I won't even pretend to be able to put all this into numbers and graphs, but the images from the Credo 50 (More specifically, Frank Doorhof's portraits) were the only ones where I saw this CMOS chip getting close to that "MF look".

afaik cmos needs some preprocessing of the "real" raw before one gets the raw file, and this filtering destroys some texture. If you downscale enough, I guess you get it back, but essentially then you need to consider that the sensor itself has a scale-dependent behavior.

Edmund

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

I won't even pretend to be able to put all this into numbers and graphs, but the images from the Credo 50 (More specifically, Frank Doorhof's portraits) were the only ones where I saw this CMOS chip getting close to that "MF look".

And since also Frank's camera uses the same CMOS device as the others, it 'proves' once more that it is all due to post-processing (incl. camera profile). Even the Bayer CFAs are identical. In Frank's case the lighting may have played a favorable role, because he knows what he is doing.

Cheers,
Bart

[Doug Peterson]

And since also Frank's camera uses the same CMOS device as the others, it 'proves' once more that it is all due to post-processing (incl. camera profile). Even the Bayer CFAs are identical. In Frank's case the lighting may have played a favorable role, because he knows what he is doing.

Cheers,
Bart

Frank is using a system in which the maker of the raw and the maker of the software are the same. That is, Team Phase One control the chain from start to end.

Capture One's full, native, and highly specialized support for yhr Credo 50, and IQ150 and IQ250 are essential in producing the net look. Put it through Lightroom, where support is thrown in the same way it is for any other camera, and much of the magic is lost.

This is especially true of color and detail/grain rendering.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Frank is using a system in which the maker of the raw and the maker of the software are the same. That is, Team Phase One control the chain from start to end.

Capture One's full, native, and highly specialized support for yhr Credo 50, and IQ150 and IQ250 are essential in producing the net look. Put it through Lightroom, where support is thrown in the same way it is for any other camera, and much of the magic is lost.

This is especially true of color and detail/grain rendering.

Hi Doug,

Yes, that's my exactly my point. There is nothing 'magical' about the hardware, it's just a bit different (and may be less, or more, suitable for specific types of photography, e.g. shifts, or long exposure, or etc. ) in the way it records the same photons.

'The look' comes from controlling the post-processing pipeline from Raw to final output.

Cheers,
Bart

[synn]

Not just that, I am very sure Leaf's proprietary color profiles play a big part in it too.

But yes, even my ccd files if run through Lightroom is a dog's breakfast.

[ndevlin]

Ok, how about getting back to some images?

Pentax 645Z, 45-85mm, f6.3, 1/400th, ISO 160, blackflies set to +15

[torger]

Forgive me for my ignorance, but is Lightroom the weapon of choice for the Pentax 645Z? What does the manufacturer recommend?

[Paul2660]

It would be interesting to shoot the same subject with a Credo 50 and IQ250, same lens, camera etc.  Hopefully the lighting could be controlled.  I would be interested in outdoors.

Then open the files in C1, watch the files as C1 runs them, as they always pop a bit.  Now load the default profiles Credo 50 for the Credo and IQ250 for the 250.  Select two variants of each, and load the opposite profiles, i.e. load a IQ250 on the Credo and Credo on the 250.  

I don't feel you will see much difference in the two.  Unless Phase One/Leaf is still building a totally different controller card for the Credo which I don't think they are, the two images are going to be very close.  

Just like you can take a D800e in C1 and load the default profile for the IQ250 on it.  (At least you can in 7 I have not tried this in , many in fact most times the C1 profile for the 250 looks better on the D800e than the default C1 Nikon profile.

Between the Credo 50 and IQ250, I am sure you can pixel peep between the 2, but I also feel I could get the file very very close in C1 without much work.  

I also feel that Phase One is going to have the best raw conversion for the IQ250/credo 50, and for sure best noise to detail ratio.  But I would also expect that.

Paul

[torger]

You can't apply Leaf Credo 50 profiles to IQ250 or the other way around, you get the totally wrong color if you try it in Capture One.

The reason is that Leaf profiles are designed to work in a different way than Phase One profiles (more specifically, Leaf profiles require to first convert into prophoto RGB space as a pre-processing step rather than stay in camera space), and it seems like if you apply a Phase One profile on a Leaf file it's processed as if it would be a Leaf profile, and you get the totally wrong colors.

In RawTherapee you can change swap profiles and get the correct processing, however it seems like the IQ250 profiles on a credo file provide a much less saturated result, which I don't know is correct or some sort of bug. All my IQ250 test files are unfortunately from strange light conditions so I have no good way to sanity check colors for that.

[Paul2660]

You can't apply Leaf Credo 50 profiles to IQ250 or the other way around, you get the totally wrong color if you try it in Capture One.

The reason is that Leaf profiles are designed to work in a different way than Phase One profiles (more specifically, Leaf profiles require to first convert into prophoto RGB space as a pre-processing step rather than stay in camera space), and it seems like if you apply a Phase One profile on a Leaf file it's processed as if it would be a Leaf profile, and you get the totally wrong colors.

In RawTherapee you can change swap profiles and get the correct processing, however it seems like the IQ250 profiles on a credo file provide a much less saturated result, which I don't know is correct or some sort of bug. All my IQ250 test files are unfortunately from strange light conditions so I have no good way to sanity check colors for that.

Interesting. Thanks for clarification.

Paul

[torger]

Interesting. Thanks for clarification.

I still think it's the same sensor in the Credo 50, IQ250, Hasselblad H5D-50c and Pentax 645Z, down to the CFA. In RawTherapee we use the same color matrix (ie CFA interpretation) for all of them with good results. Have not had any side-by-side shots to actually see if they render equal though. Even if exact same sensor there will be some micro-differences due to different lenses, IR filter,  and possibly through ways you can configure the digital sensor, but I think those differences will be hard to see with the eye.

But it doesn't matter to the typical pro user, if you want to use C1 it's either the Credo 50 or the IQ150/250, and they will render differently as C1 doesn't support swapping profiles between the two. They could if they wanted to but there's little to gain for them to demonstrate that the IQ250 can be made to look exactly the same as the Credo 50. I think the C1 software is very important link to Phase One to make the IQ250 stand out from the competition. Maybe they should cut away $10k from the IQ250 price and raise the price of a C1 license with $10k, I think it would be more fair

Likewise the popularity of the 645Z will depend as much on software support as on the camera itself.

[goldfinger]

Not out yet.

It is out... but not everywhere...

[ndevlin]

It is out... but not everywhere...

Where? I have it directly from Ricoh that it's been delayed.

Thx.

[ndevlin]

Forgive me for my ignorance, but is Lightroom the weapon of choice for the Pentax 645Z? What does the manufacturer recommend?

Lightroom.  The Pentax produces DNGs as native files. 

[goldfinger]

Where? I have it directly from Ricoh that it's been delayed.

Thx.

Here...

http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/48-pentax-medium-format/274087-tethering-coming-645z-near-you-2.html#post2973818

and here...

http://shop-uk.ricoh-imaging.eu/image-transmitter-2.html

[ndevlin]

I gather from these that it's truly not available yet, but rather delayed as I've been told (was supposed to be a September 26th release.  We'll get a copy and do an evaluation.

[eronald]

In Frank's case the lighting may have played a favorable role, because he knows what he is doing.

Cheers,
Bart

Frank Doorhof can make a Box Brownie sit and beg

Edmund

[Justinr]

Justin, looking forward to you putting your mistake right and adding more scantily clad women at once!

Quite, and the general consensus of opinion was that the pictures would indeed be enhanced by the presence of such things but when volunteers were called for to go and explain this to the girls in the office, some of whom may be a little more mature than we are usually treated to here on LL,  and suggest they might wish to fill the void there came an eerie silence except for the shuffling of feet as tumbleweed rolled gently across the foreground.

[deejjjaaaa]

Forgive me for my ignorance, but is Lightroom the weapon of choice for the Pentax 645Z? What does the manufacturer recommend?

both Ricoh and Pentax (since the beginning) were dealing with SilkyPix... just like Fuji & Panasonic... the company is ISL = http://www.isl.co.jp/SILKYPIX/english/