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Author Topic: I Spy.  (Read 5628 times)

Chairman Bill

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Re: I Spy.
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2014, 01:57:19 pm »

I like shadows, and we try to get rid of too many 'em, but whichever version here is fine with me, not least because it is a cracking composition.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: I Spy.
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2014, 03:56:17 pm »

Slobodan I have access to the TIFF and you don't. The conversion to Jpeg makes a difference....

We can only judge based on what you gave us. Make a better conversion to jpeg then.

Quote
...To make it plain so you understand the girl is wearing black clothes. There isn't any detail to lighten and I notice you didn't try to lighten it. In other members images that are posted I see you invariably make the same comment. I don't know if it is a sincere belief on your part or a nitpick...

If you are so sensitive to a rather mild critique, post it in Rob's thread "Without Prejudice," ideal for the faint of heart. Besides, I wasn't the first, nor the only one, to point out the benefits of a better tonal separation between the girl and the building. If you like it, that's fine, I did not dispute that. I did, however, point out the discrepancy between what you said ("a tiny amount of pixels clipped") and the reality. Unless, of course, our definitions of "tiny" differ in not so tiny way.

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... BTW I see a racial slur on a dead person that isn't imo appropriate. :(

You are so hurt that you have to lash out with a racism accusation!? Seriously, Robert!?

What I said was a joke at the expense of your imprecise use of language. "She is black," instead of "she wore black," has a different meaning, at least in this part of the world. It is also wildly known that Michael Jackson's skin was getting progressively whiter over the years (a fact, not slur), which some would ascribe to bleaching creams, some to vitiligo, or a combination of the two.

Bruce Cox

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Re: I Spy.
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2014, 08:02:26 pm »

I wonder about your title; it may be a joke as I assumed your comment about the racial sensitivity of the dead was, though not as funny.  Anyway, I think the photo is too three dimensional for the two d alignment of the camera to matter.  The camera seems to be pointing at the door not the woman.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2014, 08:06:24 pm by Bruce Cox »
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stamper

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Re: I Spy.
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2014, 03:47:44 am »

Quote Slobodan Reply#22

We can only judge based on what you gave us. Make a better conversion to jpeg then.

unquote

You have little or no control over a conversion from TIFF to jpeg. I was happy with the conversion which clipped the blacks. The image you posted in Reply#10 is a png image and not a jpeg. According to my research it is rarely used on the internet because it has less compression than jpeg. Please post the image again in jpeg so that there is a better comparison. The blue indicates it is the black clipping in LR. If so can you tell me if you had LR set to Adobe's default which isn't zerod but has a contrast boost which makes the blacks even more blacker.

quote

You are so hurt that you have to lash out with a racism accusation!? Seriously, Robert!?

What I said was a joke at the expense of your imprecise use of language. "She is black," instead of "she wore black," has a different meaning, at least in this part of the world. It is also wildly known that Michael Jackson's skin was getting progressively whiter over the years (a fact, not slur), which some would ascribe to bleaching creams, some to vitiligo, or a combination of the two.

unquote

I am not in the least hurt. The inclusion of the "joke" wasn't in any way related to the thread's content. It could be seen as hurtful to members who are black. Did you think about that? In the last few months you seemed to have fallen out with a few of the members of the forum. Is it accidental or just careless? :(
   
« Last Edit: October 03, 2014, 03:53:08 am by stamper »
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stamper

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Re: I Spy.
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2014, 03:58:56 am »

I like shadows, and we try to get rid of too many 'em, but whichever version here is fine with me, not least because it is a cracking composition.

Do you read the Amateur Photographer Bill? Two editions ago Lee Frost - photographic journalist - had an article about the merits of clipping blacks and whites which he is in favour of. I think most photographers who do B&W favour it but it has come to be a "nitpick" for some who don't see merit in it. :(

stamper

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Re: I Spy.
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2014, 06:34:24 am »

I have read the essay by Alain Briot and what I found interesting was his second point.

quote

Personally, I see a difference between critiquing and criticizing a photograph, or any work of art for that matter. For me critiquing means looking at the work for the purpose of finding out the strong and weak points of the work.  On the other hand criticizing means taking a critical look at the work for the purpose of expressing a personal opinion.  While there is a gray area between the two, I view the former as constructive and the later as destructive.

unquote

Very illuminating. I feel that some members - including myself - possibly try and impose there own prejudices on an image. Such as continuously stating there should be no black clipping regardless of the other merits of the image. Something to think about?

Bruce Cox

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Re: I Spy.
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2014, 10:21:36 am »

Quote Slobodan Reply#22


quote

You are so hurt that you have to lash out with a racism accusation!? Seriously, Robert!?

What I said was a joke at the expense of your imprecise use of language. "She is black," instead of "she wore black," has a different meaning, at least in this part of the world. It is also wildly known that Michael Jackson's skin was getting progressively whiter over the years (a fact, not slur), which some would ascribe to bleaching creams, some to vitiligo, or a combination of the two.

unquote

I am not in the least hurt. The inclusion of the "joke" wasn't in any way related to the thread's content. It could be seen as hurtful to members who are black. Did you think about that? In the last few months you seemed to have fallen out with a few of the members of the forum. Is it accidental or just careless? :(
   

Do you mean he is not part of the gang anymore?

Bruce
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Chris Calohan

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Re: I Spy.
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2014, 10:42:13 am »

Chris what you have done is commendable but as you point out the blacks are still black and as I pointed the black part hasn't any detail - imo - to recover. The girl is in the shade so if there was a chance of lightening her then realism has to be considered?

Half in and half out of the shade, emerging slowly into the light. I knew there was no recovery in her slacks but though perhaps "lightening" her blouse might help to separate her from the BG a little more. I've gone through and read everyone's comments. As always there is a sharp difference of opinion as to critique vs criticism, one being constructive, the other destructive...dealer's choice, I think.

My thoughts were and are directed at where you felt you needed separation between the differing elements. I saw great care taken to allow each building to stand on its own merit but when it came to the focal point, the girl, that differentiation seemed to be left to clipping blacks. It is and will always be your choice and as I've read, there are many opinions as to the good or "evil" of this technique. I felt by presenting in the User Critiques section you were asking for as much help as you were in just making a presentation. The problem with the internet is none of us have clue one as to what the scene originally looked like, nor do we have a clue as to what you are trying to convey without some backstory. In most cases, I find (even on my own submissions) too little backstory for anyone else to make a reasonable critique...it's just a thought during my morning's tea.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: I Spy.
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2014, 02:11:16 pm »

You have little or no control over a conversion from TIFF to jpeg. I was happy with the conversion which clipped the blacks. The image you posted in Reply#10 is a png image and not a jpeg. According to my research it is rarely used on the internet because it has less compression than jpeg. Please post the image again in jpeg so that there is a better comparison. The blue indicates it is the black clipping in LR. If so can you tell me if you had LR set to Adobe's default which isn't zerod but has a contrast boost which makes the blacks even more blacker...

You are hairsplitting and grasping at straws here. Several members noticed the clipped blacks. It is so obvious that it does not need measuring. However, in the spirit of "critique" (supposedly objective) vs. "criticism" (subjective), I offered an objective measure of the clipping via LR. You seem to be disputing even that.

As you can see from the attached screenshot, LR does not boost contrast to imported jpegs, nor does it change the embedded profile to Adobe's default.

As for png vs. jpeg: screenshots on my Mac are automatically generated as png. Since it does offer less compression, it is thus supposed to be better for comparison, not worse. But, since you requested, I did convert it to jpeg, first at maximum quality (middle shot), then to minimum quality (rightmost shot). If anything, the minimum quality (i.e., the most compressed jpeg) results in slightly less clipped blacks. I would suspect that is because the image I work with is much smaller than the original (i.e., less pixels to play with during compression). But clipped it stays nonetheless.

Here is what I do when posting jpegs of my own images here: I noticed that my jpegs are generally darker and more contrasty than the file I worked on in LR; part of it can be explained by smaller size, part by the whitish background they are posted against here. Therefore, I either add ⅓ of a stop more exposure or so before converting, or open up shadows a bit.

Quote
...The inclusion of the "joke" wasn't in any way related to the thread's content. It could be seen as hurtful to members who are black. Did you think about that? In the last few months you seemed to have fallen out with a few of the members of the forum. Is it accidental or just careless? :(   

Your PC analysis of my jokes and my interaction with other members isn't in any way related to the thread's content either. But since you brought it up, let me say that I have no problem "falling out" with some members of the forum. I can't please everyone, especially not on the Internet, where it is absolutely guaranteed that there will always be someone, somewhere, offended at some point by what I say (or anyone else, for that matter). I've had very, very few people on my ignore list, none currently and no current member either (which is telling in itself - those few who were on my list where banned from LuLa soon thereafter).

There are many members of the forum whose opinions and comments I respect. If some of them would tell me I am wrong (as some did) I am open to reconsider my position and apologize, if necessary. Then there are some other members I really do not attach much importance to what they think or say about me. In other words, and to answer your question, it is neither "accidental" nor "careless."
« Last Edit: October 03, 2014, 02:38:47 pm by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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stamper

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Re: I Spy.
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2014, 03:34:09 am »

Quote Slobodan

You are hairsplitting and grasping at straws here. Several members noticed the clipped blacks.

unquote

Correct but most of them were in favour of the clipped blacks? In B&W clipping blacks adds contrast to a scene and hopefully it makes the scene better. You are entitled not to like clipped blacks in a B&W image but you aren't entitled to tell others not to clip blacks especially when the majority don't agree with you. It is an aesthetic decision on my part which I will continue doing. Carrying this discussion into another thread - William's fine image - isn't the wisest decision you have made? When in a hole stop digging. :(  Any chance of posting some of your B&W work in able to see how competent you are. Please don't do an Isaac on us. ;D
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 03:37:43 am by stamper »
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RSL

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Re: I Spy.
« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2014, 08:12:15 am »

Unless you're shooting something like a fog scene there always should be black clipping. If you don't clip at least some black you're not going to have a complete range of densities. In most cases there should be at least a bit of white clipping as well. My problem with the original picture wasn't the framing or geometry, but the severe loss of separation between the girl and the background. Chris came close to a solution, but I think her face ended up standing out too sharply to preserve Stamper's intent. In the end, it's just one of those things. That dark entryway just happens to be there, and the girl's black pants just happen to merge too much with the doorway. In street photography you win a few and lose a lot. It's just the way the world works.
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seamus finn

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Re: I Spy.
« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2014, 02:54:20 pm »

Jesus, we are taking ourselves far too seriously here. It's a fine picture - enough already!
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 02:57:09 pm by seamus finn »
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stamper

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Re: I Spy.
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2014, 03:36:39 am »

Russ and seamus has summed it up nicely? I am now locking the topic.
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