Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => User Critiques => Topic started by: stamper on September 30, 2014, 09:14:43 am
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Under surveillance.....not only from me. :)
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I like it.
Nice use of the railing.
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The slants of the railing and of the building edges really help a lot. They wrap around the figure and the surveillance camera so nicely.
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I like the geometry of the buildings. Everything else is a bonus. Good catch.
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The composition is excellent, Stamper. The leading lines down to the woman make the picture, and the railing confines her. I know you like heavy blacks, but backing off a bit on the clipping would improve an already fine shot.
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... backing off a bit on the clipping would improve an already fine shot.
+1
I wouldn't mind blocked shadows in the buildings, but girl would benefit by being separated from it.
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Nice!
Is that street photography btw? ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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It is stairs photography ;)
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It is stairs photography ;)
;D
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The girl is/was black. I have just opened the file in PS and a Threshold layer. There is a tiny amount of pixels clipped in the girl and most are in the 5 pixel range. The problem about raising the blacks is it quickly turns a muddy grey. I feel that dodging the whites in the girl compensates. I am happy the way it looks on my monitor which is calibrated. However everyone is entitled to their opinion. Thanks for the feedback. :)
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The girl is/was black....
She must have undergone the same skin treatment as Michael Jackson then ;)
...There is a tiny amount of pixels clipped in the girl...
Hmmm...
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She must have undergone the same skin treatment as Michael Jackson then ;)
Hmmm...
Looks as if there was a backfire and the clipper got clipped.
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She must have undergone the same skin treatment as Michael Jackson then ;)
Hmmm...
Slobodan I have access to the TIFF and you don't. The conversion to Jpeg makes a difference. To make it plain so you understand the girl is wearing black clothes. There isn't any detail to lighten and I notice you didn't try to lighten it. In other members images that are posted I see you invariably make the same comment. I don't know if it is a sincere belief on your part or a nitpick. As Russ pointed out I like to have blacks that are clipped or nearly clipped. A conscious decision on my part that most photographers probably share with regards to B&W. I am happy with it. BTW I see a racial slur on a dead person that isn't imo appropriate. :(
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Did you "dodge" the whites on the girl brighter? If so, I suggest that heightens the audience's interest in the rest of her [other than a general desire for...]. If you let her fade into the doorway more it might work out.
I don't know why people feel they need to doctor up photographs.
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I did dodge the whites to add contrast to her. I knew I couldn't lighten the darker areas so dodging the light areas is something I like doing.
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I do believe there is more separation between the girl and the buildings but as I just discovered oh so badly, the internet compression of blacks in jpegs is just terrible. You might want to try this method rather than dodge and burn tools which are so pixel disruptive.
Use your quick select tool and select the whole of the girl, sans the left and right edges of her arms. make a Curves adjustment layer and change the blend mode to "Screen." You can do several things with this mask. You can feather the selection, lower the opacity, or paint on the mask to darken or lighten certain areas. I use this method frequently.
I did this on your image but as you can see, the internet still wants to clip the blacks to the point of oblivion.
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Chris what you have done is commendable but as you point out the blacks are still black and as I pointed the black part hasn't any detail - imo - to recover. The girl is in the shade so if there was a chance of lightening her then realism has to be considered?
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IMHO, Chris's version makes a better "reportorial" image, but loses the atmosphere of the original, in which the woman seems a bit furtive, which is why the spy camera is watching her.
I suspect it looks just fine in a print.
I say this as one who normally obsesses over shadow detail, but I can fully accept Stamper's stylistic intent.
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Stamper's original is fine with me - and a splendid shot it is. If the woman is wearing deep black clothes, there's no point in trying to lighten the tone just for the sake of screwing around in PS or Lightroom. It is what it is.
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Stamper's original is fine with me - and a splendid shot it is. If the woman is wearing deep black clothes, there's no point in trying to lighten the tone just for the sake of screwing around in PS or Lightroom. It is what it is.
Agreed!
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I like shadows, and we try to get rid of too many 'em, but whichever version here is fine with me, not least because it is a cracking composition.
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Slobodan I have access to the TIFF and you don't. The conversion to Jpeg makes a difference....
We can only judge based on what you gave us. Make a better conversion to jpeg then.
...To make it plain so you understand the girl is wearing black clothes. There isn't any detail to lighten and I notice you didn't try to lighten it. In other members images that are posted I see you invariably make the same comment. I don't know if it is a sincere belief on your part or a nitpick...
If you are so sensitive to a rather mild critique, post it in Rob's thread "Without Prejudice," ideal for the faint of heart. Besides, I wasn't the first, nor the only one, to point out the benefits of a better tonal separation between the girl and the building. If you like it, that's fine, I did not dispute that. I did, however, point out the discrepancy between what you said ("a tiny amount of pixels clipped") and the reality. Unless, of course, our definitions of "tiny" differ in not so tiny way.
... BTW I see a racial slur on a dead person that isn't imo appropriate. :(
You are so hurt that you have to lash out with a racism accusation!? Seriously, Robert!?
What I said was a joke at the expense of your imprecise use of language. "She is black," instead of "she wore black," has a different meaning, at least in this part of the world. It is also wildly known that Michael Jackson's skin was getting progressively whiter over the years (a fact, not slur), which some would ascribe to bleaching creams, some to vitiligo, or a combination of the two.
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I wonder about your title; it may be a joke as I assumed your comment about the racial sensitivity of the dead was, though not as funny. Anyway, I think the photo is too three dimensional for the two d alignment of the camera to matter. The camera seems to be pointing at the door not the woman.
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Quote Slobodan Reply#22
We can only judge based on what you gave us. Make a better conversion to jpeg then.
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You have little or no control over a conversion from TIFF to jpeg. I was happy with the conversion which clipped the blacks. The image you posted in Reply#10 is a png image and not a jpeg. According to my research it is rarely used on the internet because it has less compression than jpeg. Please post the image again in jpeg so that there is a better comparison. The blue indicates it is the black clipping in LR. If so can you tell me if you had LR set to Adobe's default which isn't zerod but has a contrast boost which makes the blacks even more blacker.
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You are so hurt that you have to lash out with a racism accusation!? Seriously, Robert!?
What I said was a joke at the expense of your imprecise use of language. "She is black," instead of "she wore black," has a different meaning, at least in this part of the world. It is also wildly known that Michael Jackson's skin was getting progressively whiter over the years (a fact, not slur), which some would ascribe to bleaching creams, some to vitiligo, or a combination of the two.
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I am not in the least hurt. The inclusion of the "joke" wasn't in any way related to the thread's content. It could be seen as hurtful to members who are black. Did you think about that? In the last few months you seemed to have fallen out with a few of the members of the forum. Is it accidental or just careless? :(
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I like shadows, and we try to get rid of too many 'em, but whichever version here is fine with me, not least because it is a cracking composition.
Do you read the Amateur Photographer Bill? Two editions ago Lee Frost - photographic journalist - had an article about the merits of clipping blacks and whites which he is in favour of. I think most photographers who do B&W favour it but it has come to be a "nitpick" for some who don't see merit in it. :(
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I have read the essay by Alain Briot and what I found interesting was his second point.
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Personally, I see a difference between critiquing and criticizing a photograph, or any work of art for that matter. For me critiquing means looking at the work for the purpose of finding out the strong and weak points of the work. On the other hand criticizing means taking a critical look at the work for the purpose of expressing a personal opinion. While there is a gray area between the two, I view the former as constructive and the later as destructive.
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Very illuminating. I feel that some members - including myself - possibly try and impose there own prejudices on an image. Such as continuously stating there should be no black clipping regardless of the other merits of the image. Something to think about?
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Quote Slobodan Reply#22
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You are so hurt that you have to lash out with a racism accusation!? Seriously, Robert!?
What I said was a joke at the expense of your imprecise use of language. "She is black," instead of "she wore black," has a different meaning, at least in this part of the world. It is also wildly known that Michael Jackson's skin was getting progressively whiter over the years (a fact, not slur), which some would ascribe to bleaching creams, some to vitiligo, or a combination of the two.
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I am not in the least hurt. The inclusion of the "joke" wasn't in any way related to the thread's content. It could be seen as hurtful to members who are black. Did you think about that? In the last few months you seemed to have fallen out with a few of the members of the forum. Is it accidental or just careless? :(
Do you mean he is not part of the gang anymore?
Bruce
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Chris what you have done is commendable but as you point out the blacks are still black and as I pointed the black part hasn't any detail - imo - to recover. The girl is in the shade so if there was a chance of lightening her then realism has to be considered?
Half in and half out of the shade, emerging slowly into the light. I knew there was no recovery in her slacks but though perhaps "lightening" her blouse might help to separate her from the BG a little more. I've gone through and read everyone's comments. As always there is a sharp difference of opinion as to critique vs criticism, one being constructive, the other destructive...dealer's choice, I think.
My thoughts were and are directed at where you felt you needed separation between the differing elements. I saw great care taken to allow each building to stand on its own merit but when it came to the focal point, the girl, that differentiation seemed to be left to clipping blacks. It is and will always be your choice and as I've read, there are many opinions as to the good or "evil" of this technique. I felt by presenting in the User Critiques section you were asking for as much help as you were in just making a presentation. The problem with the internet is none of us have clue one as to what the scene originally looked like, nor do we have a clue as to what you are trying to convey without some backstory. In most cases, I find (even on my own submissions) too little backstory for anyone else to make a reasonable critique...it's just a thought during my morning's tea.
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You have little or no control over a conversion from TIFF to jpeg. I was happy with the conversion which clipped the blacks. The image you posted in Reply#10 is a png image and not a jpeg. According to my research it is rarely used on the internet because it has less compression than jpeg. Please post the image again in jpeg so that there is a better comparison. The blue indicates it is the black clipping in LR. If so can you tell me if you had LR set to Adobe's default which isn't zerod but has a contrast boost which makes the blacks even more blacker...
You are hairsplitting and grasping at straws here. Several members noticed the clipped blacks. It is so obvious that it does not need measuring. However, in the spirit of "critique" (supposedly objective) vs. "criticism" (subjective), I offered an objective measure of the clipping via LR. You seem to be disputing even that.
As you can see from the attached screenshot, LR does not boost contrast to imported jpegs, nor does it change the embedded profile to Adobe's default.
As for png vs. jpeg: screenshots on my Mac are automatically generated as png. Since it does offer less compression, it is thus supposed to be better for comparison, not worse. But, since you requested, I did convert it to jpeg, first at maximum quality (middle shot), then to minimum quality (rightmost shot). If anything, the minimum quality (i.e., the most compressed jpeg) results in slightly less clipped blacks. I would suspect that is because the image I work with is much smaller than the original (i.e., less pixels to play with during compression). But clipped it stays nonetheless.
Here is what I do when posting jpegs of my own images here: I noticed that my jpegs are generally darker and more contrasty than the file I worked on in LR; part of it can be explained by smaller size, part by the whitish background they are posted against here. Therefore, I either add ⅓ of a stop more exposure or so before converting, or open up shadows a bit.
...The inclusion of the "joke" wasn't in any way related to the thread's content. It could be seen as hurtful to members who are black. Did you think about that? In the last few months you seemed to have fallen out with a few of the members of the forum. Is it accidental or just careless? :(
Your PC analysis of my jokes and my interaction with other members isn't in any way related to the thread's content either. But since you brought it up, let me say that I have no problem "falling out" with some members of the forum. I can't please everyone, especially not on the Internet, where it is absolutely guaranteed that there will always be someone, somewhere, offended at some point by what I say (or anyone else, for that matter). I've had very, very few people on my ignore list, none currently and no current member either (which is telling in itself - those few who were on my list where banned from LuLa soon thereafter).
There are many members of the forum whose opinions and comments I respect. If some of them would tell me I am wrong (as some did) I am open to reconsider my position and apologize, if necessary. Then there are some other members I really do not attach much importance to what they think or say about me. In other words, and to answer your question, it is neither "accidental" nor "careless."
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Quote Slobodan
You are hairsplitting and grasping at straws here. Several members noticed the clipped blacks.
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Correct but most of them were in favour of the clipped blacks? In B&W clipping blacks adds contrast to a scene and hopefully it makes the scene better. You are entitled not to like clipped blacks in a B&W image but you aren't entitled to tell others not to clip blacks especially when the majority don't agree with you. It is an aesthetic decision on my part which I will continue doing. Carrying this discussion into another thread - William's fine image - isn't the wisest decision you have made? When in a hole stop digging. :( Any chance of posting some of your B&W work in able to see how competent you are. Please don't do an Isaac on us. ;D
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Unless you're shooting something like a fog scene there always should be black clipping. If you don't clip at least some black you're not going to have a complete range of densities. In most cases there should be at least a bit of white clipping as well. My problem with the original picture wasn't the framing or geometry, but the severe loss of separation between the girl and the background. Chris came close to a solution, but I think her face ended up standing out too sharply to preserve Stamper's intent. In the end, it's just one of those things. That dark entryway just happens to be there, and the girl's black pants just happen to merge too much with the doorway. In street photography you win a few and lose a lot. It's just the way the world works.
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Jesus, we are taking ourselves far too seriously here. It's a fine picture - enough already!
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Russ and seamus has summed it up nicely? I am now locking the topic.