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Author Topic: Why I chose a Nikon D810 over a Hasselblad H5D 50 as a portrait photographer  (Read 36044 times)

torger

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Re: Why I chose a Nikon D810 over a Hasselblad H5D 50 as a portrait photographer
« Reply #60 on: September 21, 2014, 08:00:43 am »

I'm not so emotional about cameras (or cars) so I don't feel it's controversial to share reasons why an individual chose to go one way or another. One individual's reasons may not apply to another. For example I don't consider financial stability to be that important, and have no issue to switch system when needed. So the OP's reasons don't apply to me, but I find it interesting to see how other users think. I'm sure dealers like to see that too so they can adapt and refine their market message.

The Op never said that people that didn't share his judgement or priorities must be dumb. There are indeed such people too, but not him.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 08:04:58 am by torger »
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Manoli

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Re: Why I chose a Nikon D810 over a Hasselblad H5D 50 as a portrait photographer
« Reply #61 on: September 21, 2014, 08:14:49 am »

I am puzzled by the reliance on financial stability.

You shouldn't be. It's an intelligent angle - one of many when evaluating a substantial camera investment.

Seven years ago, less time than you want the company yo choose to be stable into an uncertain future, few would have given Leica much chance of survival in any meaningful way.

That may be your 'take', but I have owned and used Leica's for a long time, much longer than 7 years, and I can assure you that thought never crossed my mind.

Nikon is more vulnerable than most, despite having the 8 series which in global terms is selling tiny volumes, they are buying into other technologies as unlike Canon they are not currently as diversified.

Zero chance of Nikon failing in the next 10 years.

The thought that any published financial results are presenting an accurate and unbiased report on the company concerned is fanciful.

Both accurate and particularly unbiased - that's what financial statements are , snapshots of the financial state of a company at any point in time. If they're not then that you're into the domain of fraudulent filings (such as Olympus) and all that that entails .. don't think we need to go there, yet.

We argue enough about "facts" as presented by DxO mark for example without adding financial analysis to the forum.
IMHO camera, and lens, choice should be based on what you see, and what you feel, for the result and the shooting process, I'm in the Cooter camp  ;D

If you'd read the Phase One financials before the SilverFleet announcement you would have seen clearly, in B&W, that Phase had less than a year to go before they would have been forced to declare the Danish equivalent of Chapter 11. Not relevant to a $40,000+ investment ?

Reality is that over the last few years, there has been consolidation and alliances in the photo industry - Leica/Blackstone, Phase One/SilverFleet, Hasselblad/VMC(Ventizz), Sony/Olympus;  alliances such as Sony/Zeiss, Panasonic/Leica and now, as of Photokina - Phase One/Sony/Alpa. So yes, judging the direction and trend of each alliance does have a bearing as to which camp you join.

Given that some, on this site, still confuse Private Equity with Venture Capital doesn't mean that financial analysis is inappropriate - far from it. As MR recently posted in another thread .. " One can either look at these things from a global business / economic perspective or as a fanboy of a particular brand. The latter approach won't get much sympathy from me here. "

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Manoli

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Re: Why I chose a Nikon D810 over a Hasselblad H5D 50 as a portrait photographer
« Reply #62 on: September 21, 2014, 08:21:56 am »

I think this thread is just fine here in this forum (assuming people behave themselves) because this issue is facing MFDBs these days. The OP though new has handled himself pretty well in the face of less than optimal behavior from some parties.

+1
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Chairman Bill

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Re: Why I chose a Nikon D810 over a Hasselblad H5D 50 as a portrait photographer
« Reply #63 on: September 21, 2014, 08:26:57 am »

+2

Pics2

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Re: Why I chose a Nikon D810 over a Hasselblad H5D 50 as a portrait photographer
« Reply #64 on: September 21, 2014, 09:22:06 am »

+3
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Eddie van der Walt

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Re: Why I chose a Nikon D810 over a Hasselblad H5D 50 as a portrait photographer
« Reply #65 on: September 21, 2014, 11:20:00 am »

I just want to say that I have been amazed (though having previously read much on Luminous Landscape, I suppose I shouldn't be) by the high level of debate.

Particularly, my eyes have been opened to quite a few things.

Firstly, I will look at the 58mm Nikon and Sigma Art lenses - making sure that I USE them and not rely on online testing so I can make a more informed decision.

Secondly, as I know have a bit of money left to play with, I will grab a second hand Mamiya or Hasselblad - I'm leaning towards a film setup here - so I can keep my eye in. I'll start my own research and then post to that end later.

Anyway, thanks everyone for your input, you have left me with a lot to think about.

Oh, nearly forgot, a special mention to Garry Sarre, a fellow newbie.

Quote
Yes, and it is nice for customers questioning me on the camera, and not saying that they have the next model after mine. I even ham it up by saying, 'There's six of 'em on the moon and one in orbit'.

and

Quote
One unexpected side benefit has been, my sex life has improved. My wife finds me more 'hunky' from my improved shoulder and bicep tone...from lifting extra kilos of camera every which way, every day.

Garry, you literally had me laughing out loud, which meant I had to explain this whole threat to Mrs v. (not an easy thing to do.) (Also, the twinkle in her eye made me think she now wishes I'd opted for the MF setup.)
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Go Go

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Re: Why I chose a Nikon D810 over a Hasselblad H5D 50 as a portrait photographer
« Reply #66 on: September 21, 2014, 12:14:26 pm »

Too funny Eddie!
Great thread, thanks.

eronald

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Re: Why I chose a Nikon D810 over a Hasselblad H5D 50 as a portrait photographer
« Reply #67 on: September 21, 2014, 12:16:38 pm »

I find it interesting to see how other users think. I'm sure dealers like to see that too so they can adapt and refine their market message.

Maybe it would be better for MF if the manufacturers simply improved their product and their pricing, so the dealers don't have to do all the hard "marketing" work, and there are clear apparent advantages to buying MF.  The dSLR guys -Nikon, Sony- have certainly upped their game, and the same can be said of Zeiss and Sigma, while Canon and even Panasonic seem to have discovered dSLR video a few years ahead of Leica :)


Edmund
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 01:10:20 pm by eronald »
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torger

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Re: Why I chose a Nikon D810 over a Hasselblad H5D 50 as a portrait photographer
« Reply #68 on: September 21, 2014, 04:03:28 pm »

Maybe it would be better for MF if the manufacturers simply improved their product and their pricing, so the dealers don't have to do all the hard "marketing" work, and there are clear apparent advantages to buying MF.  The dSLR guys -Nikon, Sony- have certainly upped their game, and the same can be said of Zeiss and Sigma, while Canon and even Panasonic seem to have discovered dSLR video a few years ahead of Leica :)

To be sellable without salesmen I think the camera needs to work like other cameras, new photographers start with a DSLR and it seems illogical that a camera would lack live view or not work well in available light. Having CMOS is thus a great start.

If the camera doesn't need salesmen it can be sold in volume and then prices can be lower. Pentax is doing this model right now. They can borrow tech for their body from their smaller cameras though which Hasselblad and Phase One cannot. As far as I understand the Hasselblad body is quite good as is though (maybe lacking in robustness for us that like the feel of a Canon or Nikon flagship DSLR, but I have heard that the H5D is a step up), so I guess the H5D-50c could be sold in the same way as a Pentax.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 04:07:18 pm by torger »
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Paul2660

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Re: Why I chose a Nikon D810 over a Hasselblad H5D 50 as a portrait photographer
« Reply #69 on: September 21, 2014, 04:04:56 pm »


If you'd read the Phase One financials before the SilverFleet announcement you would have seen clearly, in B&W, that Phase had less than a year to go before they would have been forced to declare the Danish equivalent of Chapter 11. Not relevant to a $40,000+ investment ?

Reality is that over the last few years, there has been consolidation and alliances in the photo industry - Leica/Blackstone, Phase One/SilverFleet, Hasselblad/VMC(Ventizz), Sony/Olympus;  alliances such as Sony/Zeiss, Panasonic/Leica and now, as of Photokina - Phase One/Sony/Alpa. So yes, judging the direction and trend of each alliance does have a bearing as to which camp you join.

 "[/i]



Manoli,

Can you shed more light on this?  I had always thought Phase One, before the Silverfleet move, had a very good debt position, and they held a lot of cash.  And this was one of the key reasons, the acquisition was made  Yes even more cash came to Phase One after the Silverfleet transaction, so it would be interesting to know more.  I also read in this post or another where the liquidity ratio after Silverfleet was over 104%

Personally, I believe that having both a better understanding of a companies financial position and direction are important.  As you mentioned at the cost of 1 back in the 35K to 40K range, and if the fact that many photographers including myself have a 5 year value add warranty, it's important to know if support and warranty will be around in 3 or 4 years.  To me this has quite a bit to do with the residual value of the back in question.  

I agree that Canon and Nikon, Sony, and probably Fuji will all be around, as most have other huge areas of manufacturing besides cameras, in fact the DSLR part of bottom line is probably not that much for them.  With Phase One, it's a bit more narrow much more camera/and camera software centric.

Thanks
Paul
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Why I chose a Nikon D810 over a Hasselblad H5D 50 as a portrait photographer
« Reply #70 on: September 21, 2014, 06:34:30 pm »

Personally, I find this topic to be nothing more than a slap in the face to all medium format users.

I would think that MF users are first and foremost talented photographers using MF because of they think that the qualities of MF for their needs are superior relative to other types of equipments (globally or for a given range of applications that could range for most of what they do to just that one image). The point being an expectation in terms of superior photographic outcome.

If that is the case I don't see any reason to refuse discussion with people thinking differently.

Btw, cars are totally different because a VW is 99% as good in real traffic as the BMW regarding the main function of a car which is to move people from point A to point B in a given amount of time.

Comparing MF with luxury cars does in fact cast some doubt about the motivation for using MF.

In other words, sorry but my view is that feeling attacked by this post sort of equates to treating MF as a luxury item instead of trearing it as a great photographic option.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 07:25:02 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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Manoli

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Re: Why I chose a Nikon D810 over a Hasselblad H5D 50 as a portrait photographer
« Reply #71 on: September 21, 2014, 07:07:32 pm »

Can you shed more light on this?  

Paul,

Slightly off topic, but briefly: both this previous thread, this link and the Silverfleet release are worth reading. The key point related to the liquidity ratio (cash plus receivables as a percentage of short-term debt). In 2012, it was about 75% and declining. Today, after the buy-out, it's at a much healthier 104%,  predictably. In other words, they're covered on a short-term annual basis for at least the next 12 months. With return on equity and profits up ( primarily due to the reduction in debt) the situation is much improved and changed - as is the ownership.

The dealers never missed an opportunity to regale you with the tired mantra of 'increasing sales, increasing profits' etc etc - was (and is) true. What they didn't say though (and possibly didn't know or suspect) was that these were not enough to cover the ever increasing short term debt, hence the crisis. Continuing to refer to it as  'aggressive expansion financing' coupled with claims that 'PhaseOne had been both profitable and growing since 2008' bordered on disinformation.

The Press release was suitably ambiguous, but was clear in one thing - the proceeds of the sale were to be reinvested in the company 'for a minority stake'. They were, the debt much reduced, hence the improved financial outlook today.

It was a straightforward 'buyout'. If anyone tries to tell you otherwise, just ask them one simple question : " In what way did selling a 60% stake (and ceding both control and ownership) benefit the company and it's shareholders as opposed to a simple capital increase - IPO or equivalent? "

M

ps
Liquidity Ratio in Danish is Likviditetsgrad.
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eronald

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Re: Why I chose a Nikon D810 over a Hasselblad H5D 50 as a portrait photographer
« Reply #72 on: September 21, 2014, 07:28:24 pm »


The dealers never missed an opportunity to regale you with the tired mantra of 'increasing sales, increasing profits' etc etc - was (and is) true. What they didn't say though (and possibly didn't know or suspect) was that these were not enough to cover the ever increasing short term debt, hence the crisis.

Sounds like they were economical - with the truth :D
Why does everybody always naturally expect sales and profits to keep rising?  I look at Apple these days, selling record numbers of $1K phones and have a nagging suspicion that at some point the customers or the money will run out.

Edmund
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synn

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Re: Why I chose a Nikon D810 over a Hasselblad H5D 50 as a portrait photographer
« Reply #73 on: September 21, 2014, 10:27:50 pm »

Went on a vacation trip with the woman. Took only the D800 and a couple of lenses as space was at a premium and I wanted a doitall solution.
Shot some "Nice vacation pics" that were absolutely not going to happen with the medium format rig. Then shot one portrait of her.

Came back home and started processing in C1P. Instantly regretted not packing the credo with me.

Too much text. Here's the picture.



Carry on...
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Why I chose a Nikon D810 over a Hasselblad H5D 50 as a portrait photographer
« Reply #74 on: September 22, 2014, 12:34:35 am »

Hi

I would say Schewe explains it well:

Quote
I think this thread is just fine here in this forum (assuming people behave themselves) because this issue is facing MFDBs these days. The OP though new has handled himself pretty well in the face of less than optimal behavior from some parties.

There are many good reasons to use MFD, especially on a technical camera, but the OP discusses his choice of system and I guess his needs are different.

Best regards
Erik
Personally, I find this topic to be nothing more than a slap in the face to all medium format users.  It was completely inappropriate for this to be posted here, amongst a community of MF users, who look to each other for support and technical issues.  I consider this to be nothing but trolling on the OPs part.  

The OP would, IMHO, be similar to a neighbor I have never spoken to.  I save up for a BMW 5 or 6 series, buy one, feel good about my purchase, only to have this neighbor one day knock on my door.  He explains to me how he just bought a VW, was thinking about a BMW, but ultimately felt it was not worth the money, and than going into detail as to why.  Essentially saying, "you're a jack ass for buying a BMW," not really a neighborly thing to do.    

Now if this OP came to this forum before making his purchase and asked for advice, then that would be different, even if he decided to go the D810 route.  That would have been appropriate.  

I could try and refute what he has said about MF and give my view as an experienced user in both MF and DSLRs, but why bother now? 
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tnabbott

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Re: Why I chose a Nikon D810 over a Hasselblad H5D 50 as a portrait photographer
« Reply #75 on: September 22, 2014, 01:39:22 am »

Ok, I fully expect this to be controversial.
And yes, I am sticking my neck pretty far out as a first-time poster on Luminous Landscape.
But I have been reading the site for months and months, and it was a key part of my research earlier this year when I decided to come back into photography and strated looking at gear.

Specifically, I spent about a decade working as a photojournalist. Then, three years ago, I branched out into pure written journalism, taking a complete break from photography. Then this year, with my journalism credentials ensured, I decided to revive my photography career, specialising in portrait photography while also doing the interviews for those pictures.

But my new role will be freelance, while all my previous roles were either in the employment of newspapers or news agencies. So, for the first time in about 15 years, I have to buy my own camera.

Now, I studied photography in the final days before film, and large and medium format cameras were a cornerstone of my training (we used Mamiya bodies for medium format, but I don't recall which brands we used for large format).

So when I decided to return to photography, I took a long hard look at medium format.  I read all of the arguments - that clients take you more seriously; the unarguable fact that larger sensors provide physics with a better canvas; that slow frame rates encourage better composition.

And I was on the very verge of ordering my first Hasselblad H5D (or perhaps a H4x) with three lenses. In fact, I went to the Birmingham (UK) Camera Show for a final check and a chat with the Hasselblad reps before ordering.

Now this would have been a massive capital outlay for an unproven business plan, but I really didn't mind. I was sure I could make it work.

But then, at that show, something made me stop and think. I'm not sure whether it was the crammed interest at the Nikon and Canon stands with the relative sparcely visited Hasselblad stand or the fact that Phase One was hardly even represented - but I started wondering about R&D money.

I don't think it is up for argument that fewer professionals today use medium format than back in the days when I trained. I know many bread and butter photographers - and almost none of them use this format. So where is the money going to come from to keep pushing lenses further? Few amateurs can afford these systems.

And then another seed of doubt was sown. If the market had shrunk so much, isn't it just possible that at least one of the producers will at some point have to look very hard at the bottom line and throw in the towel, leaving fewer feeders for a smaller stock of buyers?

Now, buying a brand new system is a pretty painful thing to do. I don't want to do it more than once in 15 years. And if I can't be relatively certain that the manufacturer will be able to provide me with ever improving glass and sensors over that period, well then that is just one question mark too many.

With all this in mind then, I just ordered my D810 and a handful or prime lenses. It has been a painful decision, and I want to thank the Luminous Landscape community for all the info you have posted that helped inform my decision.

I wrote a bit more about this in my blog here: Why I chose a Nikon D810 over a Hasselblad H5D

This is silly. A subjective choice clothed in objective prose.  Nonetheless, purely subjective.
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torger

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Re: Why I chose a Nikon D810 over a Hasselblad H5D 50 as a portrait photographer
« Reply #76 on: September 22, 2014, 04:44:06 am »

Camera choice is of course always subjective. You can make a subjective choice of metrics, and then analyze those metrics objectively, but you're already made the subjective choice.

You can make the subjective choice that high flash sync speed is important, and then the objective analysis will show that MFD their leaf shutters are better. When it comes to "look" though, it's subjective all the way through. "Skin tones" is very subjective. It seems like MFD wins out those subjective shootouts more often. MFD is particularly strong in the portrait genre.

In landscape and architecture the strength is in resolution and camera movements, if any of those metrics are important to you MFD will come out really strong (tech camera). Now resolution is so high in the 135 systems that camera movements may be the more important aspect.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Why I chose a Nikon D810 over a Hasselblad H5D 50 as a portrait photographer
« Reply #77 on: September 22, 2014, 05:23:39 am »

In landscape and architecture the strength is in resolution and camera movements, if any of those metrics are important to you MFD will come out really strong (tech camera). Now resolution is so high in the 135 systems that camera movements may be the more important aspect.

Or you stitch 8 frames with an Otus and correct perspective in post? ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Eddie van der Walt

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Re: Why I chose a Nikon D810 over a Hasselblad H5D 50 as a portrait photographer
« Reply #78 on: September 22, 2014, 05:26:48 am »

Synn,

Nice frame.
Quote
Went on a vacation trip with the woman. Took only the D800 and a couple of lenses as space was at a premium and I wanted a doitall solution.
Shot some "Nice vacation pics" that were absolutely not going to happen with the medium format rig. Then shot one portrait of her.

Came back home and started processing in C1P. Instantly regretted not packing the credo with me.

Too much text. Here's the picture.

I find that no matter what gear I pack, I always instantly regret not having the stuff I left at home.

However, the OTHER controversial decision I took was to buy a tiny (well, by my standards) camera bag to force me to pack less gear and hopefully take my camera out more often. I sense that will be the subject of a future blog/forum post.
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Eddie van der Walt

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Re: Why I chose a Nikon D810 over a Hasselblad H5D 50 as a portrait photographer
« Reply #79 on: September 22, 2014, 05:29:56 am »

Quote
Or you stitch 8 frames with an Otus and correct perspective in post?
I always thought there must be a market for a motorised tripod/camera trigger that can do this at the click of a button.
You know, if they can do it for telescopes, why can't they do it for us?
If any manufacturers are reading this and just had a light bulb moment, I WANT COMMISSION (or at least recognition).
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