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Author Topic: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros  (Read 30124 times)

jjj

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #160 on: September 28, 2014, 07:37:14 pm »

Oh, and anybody that quotes Ken Rockwell as an authority slips a little in my estimation.  Only because while I have no personal axe to grind with him, I have read some of his views and statements that just do not tally with my experience.
A little!? Anyone who quotes in seriousness Rockwell should immediately be discounted. Rockwell is a troll who admits to making crap up and also mentions that nothing he says should be taken seriously.
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Jim Pascoe

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #161 on: September 29, 2014, 10:33:23 am »

A little!? Anyone who quotes in seriousness Rockwell should immediately be discounted. Rockwell is a troll who admits to making crap up and also mentions that nothing he says should be taken seriously.

I was trying to be polite.... :)

And on the subject of gear reliability - over 13 years of digital I have had six lenses repaired but not a single body failure.  Between my wife and I we've had -
Canon D30, 10D, 5D, 5d2, 5D3, 1Ds, 1Ds3, Panasonic G1, GF1, GF2, GH2, plus several compact cameras.  They are all incredibly tough.  And we are using them professionally too.

Jim
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Glenn NK

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #162 on: October 01, 2014, 08:12:30 pm »

I was trying to be polite.... :)

Jim

It's difficult to be polite with KR.  Some of the stuff he comes out with simply has me shaking my head.  But let me assure you that I DO NOT GO TO HIS SITE - I read what other people say he has written and it can stun me.  If I went to his site, he'd gain another "hit", and that I will not do.
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allegretto

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #163 on: October 04, 2014, 09:53:25 am »

Oh c'mon guys... it's not like you will get crabs from visiting his site...
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John Koerner

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #164 on: October 04, 2014, 02:24:12 pm »

Here's a pro actually thanking Canon for opportunities he never had before, not whining behind a keyboard for "more DR" ...

Some

Fabulous

Shots

(ISO 1600, 3200, and 6400 respectively)

Again, there are many awesome capabilities to be thankful for ...

Jack
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hjulenissen

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #165 on: October 04, 2014, 03:11:59 pm »

There can be little doubt that most current digital cameras are capable of some amazing images in the right hands and under the right circumstances.

So what? If manufacturer B is able to give amazing images under slightly more demanding circumstances or in the hands of a slightly less capable photographer, then good for them (and their customers).

-h
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bcooter

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #166 on: October 04, 2014, 05:57:48 pm »

I don't think it's a matter of "Canon Abandons the Pros" as much as it is "Canon focuses where the profit is".

Obviously profit is vital, but I think Canon also targets what the market is asking for, at least in the professional arena.

There are a lot of photographers  and no company can please everyone, though when you look at the whole line up, Canon comes the closest.

This forum is a home for measurebators that say a Nikon has 1.743% more DR or 10 more mpx or special lens coating sharpening, or a Sony has more mega something for 1/2 the price, but nobody covers all the basis from cinema 4k to sports cameras, to advertising cameras like Canon, especially in one lens mount.

Owning REDs, Pansonics, Sony (sold), Nikons (to be sold), Phase, Leicas all of them have a place, some are better in certain limited parameters, but I don't think I've shot a single project in in 10 years that a Canon case wasn't on set.

If anything Canon is conservative.   For a company that brought in the first digital camera that worked with the ease of a film camera, the 1ds, Canon moves one slow step at a time and introduces their higher end models what seems to be  a year too long, but the upside is their cameras are reliable, useable and well thought out.

Actually, in the last Photokina, no company really announced anything spectacular.   Canon a better built apsc, Nikon a  variant on a present camera, Pansonic, Olympus, Sony, RED had already produced the latest models months prior and Phase, Leaf, Hasselblad were virtually silent.

Even Leica has a camera you probably can't buy in a year, so nobody rocked the world.

Would I like more of everything, of course, but working professional versus photographing for the pure joy is a much different mindset.

If I have a project that requires 80mpx, 14 stops of dr (I don't) or 6k cinema (I do), then finding, buying, or renting is a very easy task.

I know few professionals that judge an image solely on 20% more detail, or dr.

Those are things that we learn to craft into a session rather than hope we can build it later or require a camera to capture perfect highlight to shadow in any light, any subject.

To me photography is art aided by science, not the other way around.

In fact when we talk image creation, the camera is important but far down the list of importance as long as it's reliable, functional and doesn't get in my way.


IMO

BC
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #167 on: October 04, 2014, 06:49:19 pm »

Could it be that the the focus on DR is related to the fact the this forum is called Luminous Landscape and not Luminous studio? ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

bcooter

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #168 on: October 04, 2014, 09:07:53 pm »

Could it be that the the focus on DR is related to the fact the this forum is called Luminous Landscape and not Luminous studio? ;)


I don't know ask Michael, Chris or Kevin.  

They might appreciate your assistance as a moderator.

Actually I was responding to a thread that asked if Canon abandoned the profession market and since I make 100% of my income as a professional image maker, I thought I'd respond.

I do wish that our work was mostly studio because I probably wouldn't have to work as many hours and have a much lower overhead.

Regardless, I think you took my response wrong.   The upside to these forums is it involves a lot of different image creators which all have a different perspective.

Paid professional or rabid enthusiast everyone has a voice and I've honestly learned as much from the non paid as paid.

Then again I did enjoy the forum more when their was more professional participation and a little less chart/dxo/dr/mpx sweating and of course the big negative "brand worship".

That last one sends us to dpreview land.

But . . . everyone has a voice.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 09:25:10 pm by bcooter »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #169 on: October 04, 2014, 11:10:17 pm »

Actually I was responding to a thread that asked if Canon abandoned the profession market and since I make 100% of my income as a professional image maker, I thought I'd respond.

Sure, and your response is highly appreciated, at least by me and I suspect by a large majority of readers here at LL. i also find the mix of profiles at LL very interesting, in fact it is the main reason why I spend some time around.

Regardless, I think you took my response wrong.   The upside to these forums is it involves a lot of different image creators which all have a different perspective.

I don't think so. I do understand and agree with a lot of what you write. I should have started by writing that because although it is obvious to me it may not be for others. It has never been my view that Canon is abandoning the pros and I frankly feel the very mention that they may pretty ridiculous and indeed DPreview like.

I am just pointing out that DR matters for some types of photography and that it is a legitimate need. Understanding the mention of DR as a brand centric comment today is as weird as it would have been to understand the mention of the value of high ISO as a Canon centric comment 7-8 years ago. There clearly is a value for even more DR and for even cleaner high ISO. As a reminder, DR was mentioned by most MFDB's landscape shooters until recently as the #1 reason why they were spending 10 times more than a high end DSLR. I am clearly not the only one thinking that low ISO DR is the most important characteristic of a sensor and Sony didn't invest tens of MUS$ developping the technology by chance.

Canon took the decision to invest in video instead and it probably is overall a good business decision, although i still hear a lot more mention of Red in the higher end segment.

Can we work with current equipment? Yes. Does better equipment help us work better? I think it does. At least it does help me in the context of what I do as an amateur.

Would my priorities be different if I were shooting for a living? I am sure they would and Canon would be a very appealing proposition if I were to mix still and video.

Then again I did enjoy the forum more when their was more professional participation and a little less chart/dxo/dr/mpx sweating and of course the big negative "brand worship".

Agreed. But then again, the presence of these brand centric threads doesn't affect the rest of the forum. I am not sure why some people still start such threads though. I guess you are right that some people somehow associate themselves with certain brands of equipment.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: October 05, 2014, 12:05:08 am by BernardLanguillier »
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eronald

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #170 on: October 06, 2014, 12:03:53 am »


They might appreciate your assistance as a moderator.



J,

 I don't aspire to be a mod, but I like being devil's advocate.

 You know, I think I'd like Canon to abandon the pros.

 Throw them to the wolves - the few and the stingy.

 We might get some better form factors, quicker product cycles, better codecs, funnier advertising, quirkier toys.

 And as artists we might get tools that are more fun.

 Look at where gopro have come from and where they are now; look at the phone selfie which is now the dominant still image.

 Look at what the consumer camcorder did to weddings.

 Look at what the 5D2 did to indy "feature" and "documentary" pro moving-image capture.

 My feeling is that over the last 10 years "toys" , "amateur" and prosumer models have brought much more innovation into our everyday lives as photographers  than the pro models like the Eos 1D and other high end SLRs.

 I think that most of those who get paid for photography have forgotten that the cause of its invention was the wish to capture a lasting trace of the human experience, not just make a sale. Even today, the amateurs are more free, they capture emotion every time, even if they are not necessarily very good at it. Frankly, I prefer a mother's phonecam image of her baby to another Miley Cyrus video; the first has authentic feeling and emotion - the second generates loadsa' money for the cameraman.

 Look, I went to an iPhone forum today, and here is an image of a guy's steak. It's like in a minute I've crossed the world. The image is nothing special but somehow the sharing is. And it's all about the consumer and spontaneity, zilch nada about "art" and "beauty" and "criticism" or "usage fees". I don't wanna say this too loudly, but it's not even about "megapixels".

 JFF (just for fun).

Edmund
« Last Edit: October 06, 2014, 01:34:23 am by eronald »
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jjj

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #171 on: October 06, 2014, 05:55:36 am »

Oh c'mon guys... it's not like you will get crabs from visiting his site...
No, but you up his page views and therefore potential income he can make from advertisers.
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jjj

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #172 on: October 06, 2014, 06:06:01 am »

Agreed. But then again, the presence of these brand centric threads doesn't affect the rest of the forum. I am not sure why some people still start such threads though. I guess you are right that some people somehow associate themselves with certain brands of equipment.
Did you type that with a straight face Bernard, as you come across a a massive Nikon fanboi?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #173 on: October 06, 2014, 06:56:26 am »

Did you type that with a straight face Bernard, as you come across a a massive Nikon fanboi?

I am as brand agnostic as it gets.

I'll buy anything I can afford that could help my photography and makes sense in the context of what I already own. I am not a camera collector so I avoid overlapping equipment.

I'll be as vocal in favor of Canon as I am about Nikon the day Canon delivers something superior for my needs. I am just as enthusiastic about my Sony RX100/a5100, Sigma DP2 Quattro,... like I used to be enthusiastic with my Canon S90. I own(ed) them because I think(thought) they are(were) the best, I don't think they are the best because I own them. If you can follow me?

Regardless, I don't remember ever starting a thread running down equipment from a manufacturer I don't currently use and my opinion remains that Canon offers a brilliant system for pro photographers. Feel free to disagree of course.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: October 06, 2014, 08:18:35 am by BernardLanguillier »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #174 on: October 06, 2014, 08:38:33 am »

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jjj

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #175 on: October 06, 2014, 08:59:25 am »

I am as brand agnostic as it gets.

I'll buy anything I can afford that could help my photography and makes sense in the context of what I already own. I am not a camera collector so I avoid overlapping equipment.

I'll be as vocal in favor of Canon as I am about Nikon the day Canon delivers something superior for my needs. I am just as enthusiastic about my Sony RX100/a5100, Sigma DP2 Quattro,... like I used to be enthusiastic with my Canon S90. I own(ed) them because I think(thought) they are(were) the best, I don't think they are the best because I own them. If you can follow me?

Regardless, I don't remember ever starting a thread running down equipment from a manufacturer I don't currently use and my opinion remains that Canon offers a brilliant system for pro photographers. Feel free to disagree of course.
Yet the overwhelming impression of your posting on LuLa is Nikon, Nikon, Nikon. Someone else commented on it very recently, possibly in this thread, so not just my imagination
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jjj

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Chris_Brown

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #177 on: October 06, 2014, 09:48:03 am »

http://seeimpossible.usa.canon.com

I saw the ad in the WSJ and thought somebody from LuLa wrote the copy.
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Ray

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #178 on: October 06, 2014, 09:56:08 am »

Actually, in the last Photokina, no company really announced anything spectacular.   Canon a better built apsc, Nikon a  variant on a present camera, Pansonic, Olympus, Sony, RED had already produced the latest models months prior and Phase, Leaf, Hasselblad were virtually silent.

Are you sure?

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2014/09/27/photokina-interview-samsung-nx1-redefine-pro-performance-quantum-leap-tech

Here's a comment from Dave Etchells of Imaging Resource.

"Without question, the Samsung NX1 was truly one of the standout products at the Photokina 2014 tradeshow in Cologne, Germany, with top-notch performance, a sophisticated hybrid autofocus system, and an amazing "auto-shot" mode that can capture a baseball in flight at the exact moment it's coming off the bat."

And here are some comments from an interview with the Samsung senior marketing manager, Jack Kelbley:

"As we're going up in resolution, we have some advantages relative to current sensor technology in fill. Our fill efficiency is much higher than most of the industry, thanks in large part to moving to 65nm design rules for our latest sensor.

We don't have to make big, thick walls on everything. As well, when we switch to copper [replacing polysilicon for the wiring on the chip], we've moved to a much more conductive material, which helps us in heat dissipation, it helps us in reducing resistance. So we're using less material, so again, even though we're BSI, we're cutting the pixel depth even more that way, which gives us more sensitivity and efficiency. So you'll find when you actually get these to test that the high ISO noise on these is much lower than it should be, if you follow the curve down in terms of pixel pitch, because of BSI, because of copper, because of the more efficient microlenses we've put on. The microlenses on these appear to cover almost 100%

It's my understanding that we have the tightest design rules of any sensor manufacturing process used for cameras by a factor of two, and by general average probably close to a factor of four or five."


I know this camera is an APS-C or cropped format but the advances in manufacturing and major features such as the Back-illuminated design of the sensor could result in a noise performance equal to, or even greater than, any current Nikon FX. I hope so.
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eronald

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #179 on: October 06, 2014, 12:16:04 pm »

This reminds me of the reviews explaining why the newest Intel processor PC is revolutionary.
I like eating spaghetti as much as the next guy, but more tomato sauce is just more sauce, not better sauce.



Edmund

Are you sure?

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2014/09/27/photokina-interview-samsung-nx1-redefine-pro-performance-quantum-leap-tech

Here's a comment from Dave Etchells of Imaging Resource.

"Without question, the Samsung NX1 was truly one of the standout products at the Photokina 2014 tradeshow in Cologne, Germany, with top-notch performance, a sophisticated hybrid autofocus system, and an amazing "auto-shot" mode that can capture a baseball in flight at the exact moment it's coming off the bat."

And here are some comments from an interview with the Samsung senior marketing manager, Jack Kelbley:

"As we're going up in resolution, we have some advantages relative to current sensor technology in fill. Our fill efficiency is much higher than most of the industry, thanks in large part to moving to 65nm design rules for our latest sensor.

We don't have to make big, thick walls on everything. As well, when we switch to copper [replacing polysilicon for the wiring on the chip], we've moved to a much more conductive material, which helps us in heat dissipation, it helps us in reducing resistance. So we're using less material, so again, even though we're BSI, we're cutting the pixel depth even more that way, which gives us more sensitivity and efficiency. So you'll find when you actually get these to test that the high ISO noise on these is much lower than it should be, if you follow the curve down in terms of pixel pitch, because of BSI, because of copper, because of the more efficient microlenses we've put on. The microlenses on these appear to cover almost 100%

It's my understanding that we have the tightest design rules of any sensor manufacturing process used for cameras by a factor of two, and by general average probably close to a factor of four or five."


I know this camera is an APS-C or cropped format but the advances in manufacturing and major features such as the Back-illuminated design of the sensor could result in a noise performance equal to, or even greater than, any current Nikon FX. I hope so.

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