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Author Topic: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros  (Read 30105 times)

nemophoto

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Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« on: September 18, 2014, 09:55:58 am »

Don't get me wrong, the 7D Mark II seems like a very nice camera. I'd even consider getting one as backup, or perhaps even as my primary camera -- if I didn't already own a 1Dx. To me, though, the lack of any real announcements for a camera that TRULY succeeds my 6-year old 1Ds Mark III, shows the company has truly split in a way. One segment is focused on consumer and Prosumer products, while the other focuses on cinema oriented products. Truly sad to see when I look back at the history of Canon, especially with the revolutionary development of the EOS1 and on. I've shot with Canon since 1980, and now, I'm truly disgusted. They have abandoned the true pro PHOTOGRAPHER.

I really don't care about video in my camera body. (In fact, I actually start doing cinematography in about 1970, and before becoming a photographer, thought I'd have a career in film.) As a friend suggested, I should just buy a Nikon D810 and a couple of lenses to fulfill the high res needs. (I shoot 8-foot tall instore posters for a client almost every month.) Or, maybe I'll go back to medium format and pickup a Pentax 645Z. If it weren't for the dearth of lenses for the system, I would have purchased one already. Am I alone in the frustration that Canon seems to have slipped from being a leader and even pioneer, to a virtual also-ran?

Nemo
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torger

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2014, 10:15:45 am »

No, you're not alone. Waiting for the high MP body with image quality at base ISO comparable to the Sony Exmor ever since the D800 came out. Ie the next camera to fill the "1Ds3" niche.

I think they have technical difficulties in competing with sensor technology with it comes to high MP small pixel sensors though. If they had the technology I think we would have seen a high MP camera already. But while Canon sensors perform very well at high ISO, I haven't seen a single Canon sensor so far that can compete with Sony Exmor (D800, D810, Sony A7r) when it comes to signal-to-noise performance at base ISO, and I think that metric is important for a high MP camera to become successful.

I think it would be unwise by Canon to release a full-frame high MP body without solving the dynamic range issue.

The 7D mark II shows interesting new sensor technology with phase detect over the whole surface. Unfortunately I think it will still show the same DR at base ISO as we are used to seeing in Canon sensors...
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Paul2660

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2014, 10:29:08 am »

You may not be waiting too long.

Lots of buzz on Canon rumors about a 46mp full frame coming. Announcement in October at Photoexpo. Times with history as Conin does seem to make the big announcements in NY.

Hope to see it

Paul
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allegretto

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2014, 10:53:00 am »

When I got back into photography seriously, went full-on Nikon and the colors always bothered me, especially flesh tones. The RX-1 Sony is a helluva camera and I love it, but same thing on colors

Canon is far more pleasing color and balance to my eye and that is more important than having 6.023 X 10^23 pixels

However I do understand why for some the count, counts...
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MrSmith

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2014, 11:01:47 am »

"They have abandoned the true pro PHOTOGRAPHER”

what’s a true pro photographer?  :-\ 
i can appreciate that somebody who earns a significant proportion of their income from selling photographic imagery would be classed as ‘professional’
but speaking as somebody who owns some canon equipment (amongst other brands) and derives all their income from photography I dont feel abandoned by anyone.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2014, 11:24:12 am »

...  Am I alone in the frustration that Canon seems to have slipped from being a leader and even pioneer, to a virtual also-ran?

Hell, no!

melchiorpavone

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2014, 11:31:44 am »

Don't get me wrong, the 7D Mark II seems like a very nice camera. I'd even consider getting one as backup, or perhaps even as my primary camera -- if I didn't already own a 1Dx. To me, though, the lack of any real announcements for a camera that TRULY succeeds my 6-year old 1Ds Mark III, shows the company has truly split in a way. One segment is focused on consumer and Prosumer products, while the other focuses on cinema oriented products. Truly sad to see when I look back at the history of Canon, especially with the revolutionary development of the EOS1 and on. I've shot with Canon since 1980, and now, I'm truly disgusted. They have abandoned the true pro PHOTOGRAPHER.

Am I alone in the frustration that Canon seems to have slipped from being a leader and even pioneer, to a virtual also-ran?

Nemo

Huh? I see tons of pros using Canon gear.
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DeanChriss

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2014, 11:42:38 am »

Whoever Canon has abandoned, it's not the professional video photographer.

See http://cinemaeos.usa.canon.com/.
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MoreOrLess

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2014, 12:02:07 pm »

I would say its less Canon giving up on the pro's so much as seeming to focus more on action and event pro's.

In a way I can see the logic to this as you could argue Canon's system is the absolute top of the line equipment for this next to Nikon, when it comes to studio/landscape cameras though I'd guess the feeling was they would always be playing second fiddle to digital MF.

Just how much of that market the D800's seem to have captured does perhaps show that was a mistake though.
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John Koerner

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2014, 12:28:38 pm »

Don't get me wrong, the 7D Mark II seems like a very nice camera. I'd even consider getting one as backup, or perhaps even as my primary camera -- if I didn't already own a 1Dx. To me, though, the lack of any real announcements for a camera that TRULY succeeds my 6-year old 1Ds Mark III, shows the company has truly split in a way. One segment is focused on consumer and Prosumer products, while the other focuses on cinema oriented products. Truly sad to see when I look back at the history of Canon, especially with the revolutionary development of the EOS1 and on. I've shot with Canon since 1980, and now, I'm truly disgusted. They have abandoned the true pro PHOTOGRAPHER.

I really don't care about video in my camera body. (In fact, I actually start doing cinematography in about 1970, and before becoming a photographer, thought I'd have a career in film.) As a friend suggested, I should just buy a Nikon D810 and a couple of lenses to fulfill the high res needs. (I shoot 8-foot tall instore posters for a client almost every month.) Or, maybe I'll go back to medium format and pickup a Pentax 645Z. If it weren't for the dearth of lenses for the system, I would have purchased one already. Am I alone in the frustration that Canon seems to have slipped from being a leader and even pioneer, to a virtual also-ran?

Nemo

Abandoning the pros?

You might be surprised to learn that not all pros seek "single image resolution/DR" as their most important consideration. Not everyone is trying to shoot the aurora borealis at optimal light.

As I put on another thread, it's funny, because back when the sensor "size" war started, everyone was crying (bitching, moaning) about "full functionality" over sensor size.

Now everyone is complaining about "single image resolution/DR," as if that is the only consideration for all photographers.

Now that Canon has produced a camera that is more focused on full-functionality (and less on "the best sensor") everyone is crying (bitching, moaning) about the sensor  ;D

The 7D II may not have the best single-image production capability of any camera, but it has the, broadest "high level" capabilities of any ASP-C camera, with the availability of the most lens choices. It rivals (and in some cases exceeds) full-frame sports cameras for 1/4 the cost.

That makes it a pretty useful tool for a broad scope of professional users, whose main focus (pardon the pun) is not "singe image resolution/DR."

Jack
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John Koerner

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2014, 12:44:36 pm »

You may not be waiting too long.
Lots of buzz on Canon rumors about a 46mp full frame coming. Announcement in October at Photoexpo. Times with history as Conin does seem to make the big announcements in NY.
Hope to see it
Paul


If this is true, and if the specs/actual performance of this new FF meet/exceed the D810, then in a 2-month step, Canon will have taken over the ASP-C and FF market again, and they already have the widest array of top-shelf lenses.

I personally am waiting till the end of December to invest in a whole new system (be that back to Canon again or switching over to Nikon). After using the original 7D for several years, I want something better, and I personally seek single-image quality. If Canon steps back up to the plate, and produces this kind of camera again, I will probably stay with them.

However, I was really taken aback by the DxO scores on the Nikon 810 + 200mm micro-Nikkor lens, versus the Canon (which sucked and scored about half) by comparison. In macro, absolute resolution and detail are everything.

So I have a few months of chin-rubbing to do. Because (while I do appreciate the new 7D II) it ultimately isn't really what I want. I want the resolution and DR. So I will wait till the end of this year to see if Canon can produce it. If they can, I will remain among them. If they can't, then I am going for the D810. Because, either way, I want Bernard to stop trying to convert me to Nikon already ( :P)

Jack
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NancyP

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2014, 12:56:21 pm »

Allegretto has upped the demands! Avogadro's number of pixels    ::)  Well, that's a nice round number - I will have to take that one over to Canon Rumors and throw it out, see if anyone recognizes it.

There are pros and then there are pros. Pros who shoot sports, weddings, other events, portraits, and other moving-subject work are well enough served by Canon. Architecture shooters are all off with MF tech cameras along the lines of Alpa. And so on. Canon is not likely to be loved at a landscape-dominant forum.
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DeanChriss

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2014, 02:00:41 pm »

In one way or another what I'll say here has probably been said before. To make up for that it's long, so feel free to skip to the next post.

I've used Canon cameras since 1978, starting with the A-1 and F1-n. When the EOS system came along and obsoleted all of my FD lenses I was incredibly upset and really wanted to buy a Nikon system because of that. Many did. When I tried out a Nikon F4 and a Canon EOS-1, the Canon was for me ergonomically much nicer and more intuitive to use. In switching back and forth between the two once I knew how to use both, the Nikon felt awkward. Not wanting to punish myself because I was mad at Canon, I ended up purchasing the EOS-1 and a pile of EF lenses. Since then I've owned most of the 1-series film and digital cameras that Canon has made. They have been bullet proof and the couple times service was needed it was fast and flawless. These cameras have done everything I have needed them to do, sometimes in conditions a camera shouldn't be exposed to. This may sound like Canon "fanboy" talk but it's the simple truth. I'm sure there are Nikon users who'd say similar things.

Unfortunately Canon's present cameras like the 1DX and 5D3 offer vast improvements in terms of auto-focus, auto-exposure, LCD monitor, live view, video, and nearly everything else, except low ISO image quality. If you look at the DXO scores, or your old images if you have had the previous cameras, you'll see that at ISO 100 - 200 the image quality of Canon's best cameras is nearly unchanged since the introduction of the 1DS3 in 2007. That's upsetting, not because the image quality is bad, but because better exists, and like most I want to make the best images possible.

But as others have mentioned there are many shades of gray in the Canon v. Nikon debate, and the "best" system really depends on exactly what you're doing with it. In some situations a lower frame rate can mean lots of missed shots. If you need a light 70-200mm zoom that you'll use under adverse conditions, you'll notice Nikon's F/4 version lacks sealing. The Canon 24-70 F/2.8 is considerably better than the Nikon equivalent. A camera like the D810 using the Nikon lens still beats the IQ of a Canon camera using the better Canon lens, but by less than it ought to. See http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/01/a-24-70mm-system-comparison. For ultimate image quality there are primes like those from Zeiss, but those aren't weather sealed either, and the practicality of dragging around a half dozen or more primes on top of a couple long lenses to 600mm is a non-starter if you need the ability to travel with all of this stuff. You get the idea. There is no single ideal camera or system.

It would be very odd to lose a client or a sale only because you used a Canon instead of a Nikon, or nearly anything else for that matter. An image buyer's deciding criteria is far more likely to be subject matter, artistic qualities, or the color of their couch than pixel quality. Without side by side comparisons of the same image taken with both systems under identical circumstances how could anyone judge? Heck, I still sell prints of a few images that were shot in the early 1980s using a Canon F1-N, a zoom lens, and Kodachrome 25. They hang next to prints taken with a 1DS3 and 1DX, but people still like them. I have a friend who does well with beautiful pinhole camera images, and another who has sold more than I'd ever hope to, who has often deliberately cranked up the ISO on a digital camera to "bring out that beautiful noise". Regardless, IQ is meaningless if you can't capture the shot you want or need, and you are probably the only person who will ever care about or notice IQ differences in your images that are due to the camera used. There's really a lot more to photography than IQ.
 
Still, Canon's continuing willingness to let low ISO image quality stagnate in favor of developing everything else under the sun bugs the living hell out of me! Of course Canon isn't developing a camera for me, they're doing what they think will provide the biggest return on their investments. The only real solution for anyone doing a wide range of different kinds of photography would seem to be owning multiple systems and handling the more complex logistics, or compromising on some aspects of some types of photography.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 03:24:28 pm by DeanChriss »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2014, 02:06:59 pm »

...not because the image quality is bad, but because better exists...

Well put and a good post otherwise.

allegretto

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2014, 02:09:07 pm »

Allegretto has upped the demands! Avogadro's number of pixels    ::)  Well, that's a nice round number - I will have to take that one over to Canon Rumors and throw it out, see if anyone recognizes it.

There are pros and then there are pros. Pros who shoot sports, weddings, other events, portraits, and other moving-subject work are well enough served by Canon. Architecture shooters are all off with MF tech cameras along the lines of Alpa. And so on. Canon is not likely to be loved at a landscape-dominant forum.

Chem much Nancy…?

We will employ the new pixel-metric… molar expression. With 6.023 X 10^23 being a "1 Molar" chip. the advantage here is that as you know "molar" is concentration based scalar so it would define density as well. Sweet…!

Whaddya think…?
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uaiomex

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2014, 02:36:41 pm »

I feel your frustation Nemo.
This is what I see as a possible scenario. Just an exercise in imagination to undertand the Canon IQ leadership demise.

Canon found through industrial spying that Sony had a huge breaktrhough in sensor technology. As this technology was heavily patented they knew then, they were about to be years behind in this department.
They had to come with an alternative strategy to stay put. This strategy had two main points:

One, revamping all those lenses that lacked image quality. They pushed their lens r&d to the limit. It paid off as they could release so many improved lenses that left Nikon behind in this department. Result : Forced loyalty.

Two, it was easy for them to see that video was going to get really hot. They again told their enginners to push video research to the limits. They won the race when they released the 5DII. After the tremendously market acceptance of this camera, the management gave the nod to fully develop the cinema system. Result: it seems they just completely woke the cinema tiger that was half asleep in Sony quarters.

It is now 6 years later. By now, Canon should know for sure if they stay in the sensor race or sacrifice a little pride and start buying Sony big sensors.
When will our frustation end? Hard to tell. It can be this October or in the next few years.

Eduardo


« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 02:54:40 pm by uaiomex »
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nemophoto

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2014, 03:06:17 pm »

You may not be waiting too long.

Lots of buzz on Canon rumors about a 46mp full frame coming. Announcement in October at Photoexpo. Times with history as Conin does seem to make the big announcements in NY.

Hope to see it

Paul


Hate to say it, but the rumored 46MP camera has been touted as the next great thing for years... and has yet to materialize. I'll be truly surprised if it's announced at Photo Expo versus Photokina, since there is no comparison in size and prestige of the two.
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nemophoto

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2014, 03:11:07 pm »

Whoever Canon has abandoned, it's not the professional video photographer.

See http://cinemaeos.usa.canon.com/.

My point exactly. Canon has placed far more emphasis on their CinemaEOS cameras than anything in the 1D line.
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DeanChriss

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2014, 03:39:04 pm »

Hate to say it, but the rumored 46MP camera has been touted as the next great thing for years...

Literally years. When the rumored 46 or more megapixel camera does not materialize as rumored there is immediately a replacement rumor about what show it really will appear at, and so on. Personally, I go to the Canon rumors site when I'm not sure what to be disappointed about next.  ;)
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NancyP

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Re: Photokina - Canon abandons the pros
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2014, 03:43:21 pm »

What is the market share of Cinema EOS? Are they competing with RED? Garden-variety broadcast video cameras from Panasonic (If it bleeds, it leads...)? Are Cinema EOS being used routinely for news? shooting low-end TV commercials (Carpet City)? independent documentaries? narrative cable TV projects? high-end Hollywood productions?
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