Photokina - Canon abandons the pros

[uaiomex]

I truly believe that Cinema EOS was a wrong turn. Wil it work? Possibly. Will it turn to be worthy for Canon? At the price Canon is paying nowadays, probably not.

What is the market share of Cinema EOS? Are they competing with RED? Garden-variety broadcast video cameras from Panasonic (If it bleeds, it leads...)? Are Cinema EOS being used routinely for news? shooting low-end TV commercials (Carpet City)? independent documentaries? narrative cable TV projects? high-end Hollywood productions?

[pegelli]

If it weren't for the dearth of lenses for the system, I would have purchased one already.

How about a Sony a7 (24 MP) or a7R (36 MP) body and a Metabones smart adapter which gives you Electronic aperture, EXIF, image stabilization and autofocus. It will probably lag in ergonomics and AF speed but it gives you options w/o having to get into a completely new lens lineup.

Probably not your desired end-point, but it could be a "fill in the gap until Canon produces something with a better sensor" tactic.

[nemophoto]

I feel your frustation Nemo.
This is what I see as a possible scenario. Just an exercise in imagination to undertand the Canon IQ leadership demise.

Canon found through industrial spying that Sony had a huge breaktrhough in sensor technology. As this technology was heavily patented they knew then, they were about to be years behind in this department.
They had to come with an alternative strategy to stay put. This strategy had two main points:

One, revamping all those lenses that lacked image quality. They pushed their lens r&d to the limit. It paid off as they could release so many improved lenses that left Nikon behind in this department. Result : Forced loyalty.

Two, it was easy for them to see that video was going to get really hot. They again told their enginners to push video research to the limits. They won the race when they released the 5DII. After the tremendously market acceptance of this camera, the management gave the nod to fully develop the cinema system. Result: it seems they just completely woke the cinema tiger that was half asleep in Sony quarters.

It is now 6 years later. By now, Canon should know for sure if they stay in the sensor race or sacrifice a little pride and start buying Sony big sensors.
When will our frustation end? Hard to tell. It can be this October or in the next few years.

Eduardo

I think you nailed it pretty well, Eduardo. The irony is, Canon was light years ahead of most companies in sensor development. They were the first to push CMOS instead of CCD (which at the time, many thought Canon was out of it's collective minds). I think, as often happens, they rested a tad too long on their laurels, and found others (Sony) leap frogging ahead. Although, until lately, Canon STILL held the advantage for high ISO compared to Sony. Pity nothing came of the demo chip Canon created a number of years ago -- approx 125MP in the 1D format (1.3x crop factor).

[David Anderson]

I gave up on Canon replacing my ancient 1DsIII's last year and haven't looked back.
Canon have no answer to the 800e - nothing - not a hint, sniff or wish for anything that even comes close to the image quality of the Nikon.
No, I won't debate various Canon vs. Nikon lenses anymore because it's pointless until Canon pulls their finger out and makes a sensor of the same quality as the 800e.


 

[melchiorpavone]

I gave up on Canon replacing my ancient 1DsIII's last year and haven't looked back.
Canon have no answer to the 800e - nothing - not a hint, sniff or wish for anything that even comes close to the image quality of the Nikon.
No, I won't debate various Canon vs. Nikon lenses anymore because it's pointless until Canon pulls their finger out and makes a sensor of the same quality as the 800e.


 

This is hilarious. Digital sucks.

[Iluvmycam]

Abandoning the pros?

You might be surprised to learn that not all pros seek "single image resolution/DR" as their most important consideration. Not everyone is trying to shoot the aurora borealis at optimal light.

As I put on another thread, it's funny, because back when the sensor "size" war started, everyone was crying (bitching, moaning) about "full functionality" over sensor size.

Now everyone is complaining about "single image resolution/DR," as if that is the only consideration for all photographers.

Now that Canon has produced a camera that is more focused on full-functionality (and less on "the best sensor") everyone is crying (bitching, moaning) about the sensor  

The 7D II may not have the best single-image production capability of any camera, but it has the, broadest "high level" capabilities of any ASP-C camera, with the availability of the most lens choices. It rivals (and in some cases exceeds) full-frame sports cameras for 1/4 the cost.

That makes it a pretty useful tool for a broad scope of professional users, whose main focus (pardon the pun) is not "singe image resolution/DR."

Jack

That's right Jack! People are crazed with mp. The grass is greener delusion. Most of what I see on the forums is garbage anyway. They want hi res snapshots of garbage. 35mm color flatbed scanned film = about 4mp. Everything above 4mp is gravy.

[nemophoto]

This is hilarious. Digital sucks.

Hmm. My best friend (also a photographer), is a bit of a techno-phobe. You sure sound like him. Get over it. Digital is here to stay. Shoot film if you like -- while you can get it.

[melchiorpavone]

Hmm. My best friend (also a photographer), is a bit of a techno-phobe. You sure sound like him. Get over it. Digital is here to stay. Shoot film if you like -- while you can get it.

Film is vastly superior to digital in every way.

[nemophoto]

That's right Jack! People are crazed with mp. The grass is greener delusion. Most of what I see on the forums is garbage anyway. They want hi res snapshots of garbage. 35mm color flatbed scanned film = about 4mp. Everything above 4mp is gravy.

There's a real need to higher MP, for certain applications. If you notice, the discussion is as it applies to professional photographers, and not whether someone wants a gazillion megapixels for their snap shots. Though, in the past, I massaged original 4MP images for my client to 8-feet, it took tremendous work and an absolutely tack sharp image -- no room for error. If you think this is all garbage, why not use a Coke bottle for lens??

[nemophoto]

Film is vastly superior to digital in every way.

I love film. I love digital. Two totally different mediums, like watercolor versus oils. And not unlike those mediums, either you know how to get the most out of digital, or you don't. Given a choice between a client dictating I use EPN versus my choice of the time, Provia, (which happened years ago) I'd take digital ANY day of the week and twice on Sunday. I turned to digital  in 2001, and never looked back. Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on your statement.

[melchiorpavone]

I love film. I love digital. Two totally different mediums, like watercolor versus oils. And not unlike those mediums, either you know how to get the most out of digital, or you don't. Given a choice between a client dictating I use EPN versus my choice of the time, Provia, (which happened years ago) I'd take digital ANY day of the week and twice on Sunday. I turned to digital  in 2001, and never looked back. Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on your statement.

No. I'm too busy.

EPN vs Provia? are you kidding? In which format?

[jjj]

What is the market share of Cinema EOS? Are they competing with RED? Garden-variety broadcast video cameras from Panasonic (If it bleeds, it leads...)? Are Cinema EOS being used routinely for news? shooting low-end TV commercials (Carpet City)? independent documentaries? narrative cable TV projects? high-end Hollywood productions?

Need for Speed used a lot of Canon EOS kit and it was pretty good looking film. Better than the script at least.  I saw it on the big screen too.

[jjj]

Film is vastly superior to digital in every way.

Methinks I can smell a troll.

[melchiorpavone]

Methinks I can smell a troll.

Well, except speed. I'll give you that.

[rgs]

This is hilarious. Digital sucks.

He's back!

[rgs]

No. I'm too busy.

EPN vs Provia? are you kidding? In which format?

He only has time enough to throw bombs.

[melchiorpavone]

He's back!

Never been here before, so I'm sorry to say I don't know who 'he' is.

[melchiorpavone]

I love film. I love digital. Two totally different mediums, like watercolor versus oils. And not unlike those mediums, either you know how to get the most out of digital, or you don't. Given a choice between a client dictating I use EPN versus my choice of the time, Provia, (which happened years ago) I'd take digital ANY day of the week and twice on Sunday. I turned to digital  in 2001, and never looked back. Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on your statement.

I once saw a comparison (4x5 chromes) made by a pro of Fujichrome 100 vs EPN. The photos were of bedding (shot in studio), I believe. The color difference was considerable. The EPN was more neutral, if I recall. More accurate. I was more than a little surprised. But what I was reacting to was that the client was choosing the film. If it were 35mm, I would take PKR every time. For those who don't know, that was Kodachrome 64 professional.

[torger]

High res 135 was a big risk when D800 was introduced. Would anyone want that high resolution, or was it just a waste? It became a huge hit though, clearly there was a high res niche to fill, and since then Nikon has followed up with the D810 and Sony has released the A7r. I think it's more about reaching into the super-expensive medium format space rather than to just make high resolution pictures in the traditional 135 genres. In terms of grain-free resolution a D810 can produce prints which is really close to 4x5" large format film. That's cool.

Canon is stable in all the "old" genres of 135 photography which fills the needs of the vast majority of users, but the high res niche remains unfilled. To say that is to "abandon the pros" is a long stretch, but indeed those that did much work with the 1Ds3 probably feel let down when they've seen what's possible with a D810. I guess the best alternative you have as a Canon user is to buy an A7r body and adapters while waiting for Canon to hopefully catch up.

Probably a larger user group than pros that want a high res Canon there's amateurs too. Landscape is huge among amateurs, and that's an application when high resolution is desired by many.

[Paulo Bizarro]

I can see what is going to happen when Canon introduces a new high mp count sensor in a 1 series camera: people will then complain that it will be too expensive... sigh...

Who is willing today to pay north of USD 6000 for a 1DX like camera with high +40 mp sensor?

Note that the D810, Sony A7R etc are not in the same price category as a D4 or 1DX.

To me, the only doubt is whether Canon will put such a sensor in a 1D series camera, or in the 5D type camera. In a sense, the 1D high resolution sensor camera may have died; again, the action-pro camera from Nikon is not high res sensor.

Or they may put it in both series.