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Author Topic: Fotokina 2014  (Read 21719 times)

barryfitzgerald

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Re: Fotokina 2014
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2014, 06:50:50 pm »

Because Samsung has done well in consumer electronics (yes rightly pointed out they came from nowhere to dominate some markets TV's etc)
But that does not mean they will in the camera market, don't get me wrong the NX-1 looks pretty good but they've had little impact in this market they do ok selling a few high connectivity compacts here and there, most of the NX models ended up in the bargain basement bin on blowout deals.

I don't see that changing.
Don't get me wrong I'm no brand snob if Yongnuo made a good camera/system I'd take a look (their flashes are pretty good) just the market is dominated by a few leading brands and there are probably too many smaller makers fighting for slice of the getting smaller pie.

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Torbjörn Tapani

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Re:
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2014, 08:16:33 pm »

Samsung has some serious financial and technological muscle. They can leverage mobile tech (BSI, multicore processors, touch, connectivity, the list goes on) where the Canikons are still clueless or just very far behind. Sony has the best chance of competing in my mind. They also make their own sensors and mobile devices that far outnumber camera sales.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Fotokina 2014
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2014, 08:25:19 pm »

Because Samsung has done well in consumer electronics (yes rightly pointed out they came from nowhere to dominate some markets TV's etc)
But that does not mean they will in the camera market, don't get me wrong the NX-1 looks pretty good but they've had little impact in this market they do ok selling a few high connectivity compacts here and there, most of the NX models ended up in the bargain basement bin on blowout deals.

I don't see that changing.

We will see.

When Michael sells off all his beloved Nikon gear in favor or something smaller/lighter/EVF based, something is going on.

There is movement in the market, people with money get older, are looking for cameras that are smaller, help them focus,... cameras that fix their challenges and not cameras that are easier to design for engineers.

I know, they are not pro sport shooters and I am aware I am mixing different segments in this discussion, but they are not un-related.

Overall in my view, the 7DII, although it is by far the best APS-C DSLR ever designed, will probably convince few new users to enter the Canon system. i think the NX1 has far more appeal potential.

I am aware that this doesn't change the fact that Canon still has the best system and will maintain that lead for years to come, but if you think from an opportunity cost standpoint, Canon had the potential to release a camera as attractive as the NX1 and they did not. So my point is that it is fine to do a good job, but that it is better to do a better job than your competitors... but you need first to have the ability to consider obvectively who your competitors are. Consider how arrogant the big guys are in Tokyo, I seriously doubt that they discuss the Korean threat when playing golf with each others.

Kodak seemingly thought that their competitors were Fujifilm while they were DSLR vendors. I am afraid that Canon still thinks that Nikon is their only competition and the opposite may be true as well.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 08:29:28 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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ndevlin

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Re: Fotokina 2014
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2014, 08:33:00 pm »


Other than the Rebels, which remain excellent value for money, I cannot see a single camera that would make someone chose Canon if they didn't already use the system. Some other camera is better at basically every level and in every niche.  Yes, the lens line has filled out, but I've never been impressed by anything but a smattering of their L primes and telephotos.  They are having their clock cleaned in terms of future-tech by everyone from Fuji to Samsung.  If they are not careful, they will become dinosaurs. 

Canon was the dullest booth at Photokina two years ago, when they actually showed a FF camera.  Things have only gone down hill.  But market position has its privileges, and people who are bought-into the system keep buying, for entirely reasonable reasons.  That, and only that, has carried them. 

- N.
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barryfitzgerald

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Re: Fotokina 2014
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2014, 08:48:03 pm »

Canon works simple as that people can't help themselves they just buy them.
Many aspire to use Canon, to own at least some of the "red ring" L lenses, they have a big range of bodies and a massive range of lenses they are the choice of many pros and that has massive pull (I'm not agreeing with it just telling you what I see with people)

People do not aspire to own a "Samsung" and they never will they can have all the cash and resources in the world but they will never be no. 1. This market is not like other markets you don't just go in there and buy market share Samsung has no prestige almost 0. Marketing counts and Canon have it, Samsung do not. Other makers might do ok Sony are big enough and a known brand (but less so for cameras) Nikon won't disappear any time soon, but something has to give and there are not enough buyers to long term support all these makers some will quit the business eventually.

The only way Samsung would make any traction in the market is "cheaper" most people will def not pay £1200 for an NX-1 no matter how interesting or good it might be. A Samsung branded camera cannot command that price this will not change anytime soon.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Fotokina 2014
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2014, 09:07:28 pm »

Canon works simple as that people can't help themselves they just buy them.
Many aspire to use Canon, to own at least some of the "red ring" L lenses, they have a big range of bodies and a massive range of lenses they are the choice of many pros and that has massive pull (I'm not agreeing with it just telling you what I see with people)

People do not aspire to own a "Samsung" and they never will they can have all the cash and resources in the world but they will never be no. 1. This market is not like other markets you don't just go in there and buy market share Samsung has no prestige almost 0. Marketing counts and Canon have it, Samsung do not. Other makers might do ok Sony are big enough and a known brand (but less so for cameras) Nikon won't disappear any time soon, but something has to give and there are not enough buyers to long term support all these makers some will quit the business eventually.

The only way Samsung would make any traction in the market is "cheaper" most people will def not pay £1200 for an NX-1 no matter how interesting or good it might be. A Samsung branded camera cannot command that price this will not change anytime soon.

Hum... perhaps among the small LL community. Overall people end up going for performance/price.

The area where the NX1 may be hurting the 7DII worst is video though... to quote only one sentence "The camera is expected to cost just $1499, the same in Euros and on the basis of what I saw today completely annihilates the Canon 7D Mark II in terms of the technology under the hood."

http://www.eoshd.com/2014/09/photokina-report-day-1-samsung-nx1-4k-mirrorless-camera-h-265/

Cheers,
Bernard

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Fotokina 2014
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2014, 09:41:56 pm »

I wonder, looking at Canon's current offerings in the EOS system, what is actually missing that could curtail the endeavours of a photographer that wants to use a DSLR? I mean, if I can not make a decent photo with such a system, I would first blame me, not the gear. But I suppose all the pros using Canon must be wrong...

What is missing, among other things, is a state-of-the-art sensor. The one that doesn't leg behind by 1 stop dynamic range from the one that is ¼ of its area (e.g. Olympus m4/3) and 2 stops behind Nikon.

Whether one can make a decent photo with such a system is beyond the point. Decent photos can be made by any camera and any system in any historic period, from Brownies to pinhole cameras, from Lomos to Soviet Leica-copies. The point being that, with technological advances, things become easier, to say the least, let alone enabling us to do previously unimaginable things. Otherwise, we could be all still shooting Brownies.

We all learn to cope with technological limitations of our times. We bracket to increase dynamic range, for instance. The operative words here are "of our times." When the times change, as they did with Nikon/Sony sensors, coping with the previous limitations becomes outdated. Being able to pull out details in the shadows with the 2 stop dynamic range advantage is, well, an advantage, and would often mean no need for bracketing. I bracket because I have to, not because it is a particularly enjoyable activity.  
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 10:20:34 pm by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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LKaven

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Re: Fotokina 2014
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2014, 10:04:04 pm »

From the article Bernard linked to:

Quote
The Super 35mm sensor appears to deliver a very clean image free of moire and aliasing. I questioned Samsung on the readout resolution, because 28MP is a long way from the 8MP of 4K. 28MP is more like 7K! The answer had my jaw on the floor. Their sensor is able to do a full pixel readout at up to 30fps in 7K and so there’s no crop in 4K video mode.

Wow.  A full pixel readout, 28MP at 30fps.  That is pretty amazing.  It could do a full 7K if it had the I/O bandwidth.

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Fotokina 2014
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2014, 01:29:21 am »

Hi,

APS-C is actually good for telephoto shooters. On a full frame you would need to add a 1.6 converter or an 1.6X times longer lens to achieve the same resolution on subject. The native resolution of the Canon 7DII is 122 lp/mm while on Nikon D810 it is 105 lp/mm. On the other hand, Nikon D7100 has 128 lp/mm.

The first question is weather the lenses resolve as well.

The other question is if adding an extender actually increases resolution or if simply magnifies the image.

I am normally shooting full frame (Sony) or MFD (Hasselblad V), but often use APS-C for wildlife and birds.

Best regards
Erik

Pretty sure that's jetlag talking: it's the 810 and 750.

Btw, I just realized the 7DII is freakin' APS-C.....I had assumed all along it was full frame. WTF? This is 2014. Makes you wonder if Canon's entire R&D division died on a plane crash five years ago.

- N.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 02:08:52 am by ErikKaffehr »
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Erik Kaffehr
 

LKaven

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Re: Fotokina 2014
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2014, 01:59:15 am »

This is 2014. Makes you wonder if Canon's entire R&D division died on a plane crash five years ago.

I thought for certain Canon was going to introduce a high-resolution FF DSLR at this Photokina.  Tell me we just got more cameras that top out at 11.5 of DR.

BTW, the pixel density on the NX1 sensor works out to 63MP on full frame. 

deejjjaaaa

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Re: Fotokina 2014
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2014, 02:20:58 am »

BTW, the pixel density on the NX1 sensor works out to 63MP on full frame. 
pixel density on smaller sensors works out to much more, so ?
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Fotokina 2014
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2014, 06:01:29 am »

We all learn to cope with technological limitations of our times. We bracket to increase dynamic range, for instance. The operative words here are "of our times." When the times change, as they did with Nikon/Sony sensors, coping with the previous limitations becomes outdated. Being able to pull out details in the shadows with the 2 stop dynamic range advantage is, well, an advantage, and would often mean no need for bracketing. I bracket because I have to, not because it is a particularly enjoyable activity.  


I'm shooting Canon 5D III and Nikon D810 and I bracket on both and the goal is to avoid exposure blending by getting the optimum exposure without clipping essential highlight. Sometimes the Canon will not make it and the Nikon will, but in reality it is a very small percentage. So for people who know what they are doing the DR disadvantage of the Canon is a smaller issue than it is made up to be. I'm all for technological advance and would welcome a modern sensor in the Canon in the sense of DR but it is not a deal bracker. The 5D III is the best designed DSLR in terms of handling and is still in my view slightly ahead of the D810 although it is a better camera than the D800E in my view.

Canon has the disadvantage to be limited (or so it appears) by their current sensor manufacturing infrastructure, but is has allowed them to use a totally new sensor in the 7D II with PDAF. Nikon using Sony sensors are limited to what Sony provides. Both have limitations and I think there is little movement in what their customer base is. Question is what the new generation starting with photography and used to smart phones will go for.

Those who grow older and cannot deal with the weight of FF 35mm systems (or MF) will downsize to smaller systems, but I doubt this will change much in the marketplace. All what is called revolutions seems pretty incremental in my view. Worth while increments for sure, but hardly any revolution like the iPhone killed a big company like Nokia. Or the Intel 4004, 8008, 8080 etc. which changed computing forever. This was a revolution. Digital was a revolution in photography but what is the next revolution?

The real question is if there is a technology around the corner that is really disruptive. E.g. http://www.theverge.com/2014/7/30/5949913/lytro-illum-review and perhaps a glimpse of a possible future.

LKaven

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Re: Fotokina 2014
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2014, 07:52:51 am »

pixel density on smaller sensors works out to much more, so ?

28MP APS-c times 2.25 = 63MP FF

NancyP

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Re: Fotokina 2014
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2014, 01:23:32 pm »

Canon being dull: I bought into Canon, despite a lifelong aspiration to own a Nikon, due to some interesting and unique Canon lens offerings: an affordable 400mm f/5.6L supertelephoto, to try bird photography without breaking the bank; MP-E 65mm f/2.8 greater-than-life-size field macro lens (try using a bellows set-up in the field, and you can see why the form factor of the MP-E is appealing); adequate other macro offerings, as good as what Nikon had on offer (I ended up with the compact EF-S 60mm f/2.8 and the bokehlicious but heavy beast 180mm f/3.5L as my general macro lenses, use the 180mm more than all others, so maybe I would have been fine with the old Micro-Nikkor 200 f/4). Also, at the time I chose systems, the better Nikkors cost about 30% to 50% more than the equivalent Canon L lenses.
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deejjjaaaa

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Re: Fotokina 2014
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2014, 01:51:50 pm »

28MP APS-c times 2.25 = 63MP FF
18 mp Nikon 1 times (2.7 * 2.7 ) = 131MP FF, shall we look into P&S and cell phones ?
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LKaven

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Re: Fotokina 2014
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2014, 02:27:59 pm »

18 mp Nikon 1 times (2.7 * 2.7 ) = 131MP FF, shall we look into P&S and cell phones ?

Sorry, maybe I misunderstood your point.  I was just envisioning the NX1 sensor as a FF sensor.  Nothing else implied.  I realize that FF sensors will probably top out around 200MP.  I think the I/O bandwidth will be more of an impediment than anything having to do with pixel density. 

As it is, 28MP * 30 = 840MP / second is a pretty good trick.

barryfitzgerald

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Re: Fotokina 2014
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2014, 02:39:48 pm »

I'm shooting Canon 5D III and Nikon D810 and I bracket on both and the goal is to avoid exposure blending by getting the optimum exposure without clipping essential highlight. Sometimes the Canon will not make it and the Nikon will, but in reality it is a very small percentage. So for people who know what they are doing the DR disadvantage of the Canon is a smaller issue than it is made up to be. I'm all for technological advance and would welcome a modern sensor in the Canon in the sense of DR but it is not a deal bracker. The 5D III is the best designed DSLR in terms of handling and is still in my view slightly ahead of the D810 although it is a better camera than the D800E in my view.


Problem is not all types of photography can benefit from multiple shots for increased DR, hence the Canon's lagging DR is a problem for some, it's not a downer for sales though for some reason. People assumed 10 years ago that Canon were leading because they had the best sensors this is not the case now. Canon got in early with more affordable bodies they already had a good system and expanded that rapidly over time
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MoreOrLess

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Re: Fotokina 2014
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2014, 03:01:48 pm »

We will see.

When Michael sells off all his beloved Nikon gear in favor or something smaller/lighter/EVF based, something is going on.

There is movement in the market, people with money get older, are looking for cameras that are smaller, help them focus,... cameras that fix their challenges and not cameras that are easier to design for engineers.

I know, they are not pro sport shooters and I am aware I am mixing different segments in this discussion, but they are not un-related.

Overall in my view, the 7DII, although it is by far the best APS-C DSLR ever designed, will probably convince few new users to enter the Canon system. i think the NX1 has far more appeal potential.

I am aware that this doesn't change the fact that Canon still has the best system and will maintain that lead for years to come, but if you think from an opportunity cost standpoint, Canon had the potential to release a camera as attractive as the NX1 and they did not. So my point is that it is fine to do a good job, but that it is better to do a better job than your competitors... but you need first to have the ability to consider obvectively who your competitors are. Consider how arrogant the big guys are in Tokyo, I seriously doubt that they discuss the Korean threat when playing golf with each others.

Kodak seemingly thought that their competitors were Fujifilm while they were DSLR vendors. I am afraid that Canon still thinks that Nikon is their only competition and the opposite may be true as well.

Cheers,
Bernard

I think your talking about two issues where, the NX1 being a threat to Canon's higher end users who will buy the 7D2 as an action camera and the potential of the NX1 as a bit more of an all rounder.

The first I don't think is significant outside of S Korea, again I doubt the AF performance will be there and we know the lens lineup isn't.

The second I do agree with a bit more although I wouldn't necessarily say the 7D2 is an example of Canon getting things wrong. I think the camera we got was a pretty inevitable evolution of the various lines canon has with the 70D taking the original 7D's spot as an all rounder.

What Canon and Nikon are missing in there APSC lineups for me is something the size of an entry level camera but with build and controls aimed at higher end users. You look at say the Nikon D5300 and you can see its possible to fit an advanced AF unit into a small camera, something slightly larger(say 600g ish) with a tougher body, 100% viewfinder, small top plate LCD and controls more inline with higher end offerings would IMHO cut into a lot of the market for higher end mirrorless systems.
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barryfitzgerald

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Re: Fotokina 2014
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2014, 03:09:36 pm »

Hum... perhaps among the small LL community. Overall people end up going for performance/price.

The area where the NX1 may be hurting the 7DII worst is video though... to quote only one sentence "The camera is expected to cost just $1499, the same in Euros and on the basis of what I saw today completely annihilates the Canon 7D Mark II in terms of the technology under the hood."

http://www.eoshd.com/2014/09/photokina-report-day-1-samsung-nx1-4k-mirrorless-camera-h-265/

Cheers,
Bernard


People often overestimate the impact of 4k video it's simply not widespread enough to be of any significance for "most buyers" esp not stills shooters
Even working professionals are not using full HD for some work (wedding) they are mostly using DVD still for that industry there is little demand for Blu ray let alone 4k
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Fotokina 2014
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2014, 05:21:14 pm »

People often overestimate the impact of 4k video it's simply not widespread enough to be of any significance for "most buyers" esp not stills shooters
Even working professionals are not using full HD for some work (wedding) they are mostly using DVD still for that industry there is little demand for Blu ray let alone 4k

Maybe, but then again the GH4 seems to be selling very well and that is solely because of a good 4K implementation.

More generally speaking, I would also not under estimate the impact of specs on a majority of the camera buying population both for still and motion. In particular in countries such as India where Samsung has a very positive brand image already. It is not because Canon has decided that 22mp is all you'll ever need that buyers won't be attracted by 28mp.

Cheers,
Bernard
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