The New Leica S (Typ 007) and Leica S-E (Typ 006)

[JV]

I certainly am not looking for more MP...

But at $25K Leica is not going to attract much new users (if any) and it is going to be a hard sell to get existing S2/S users to upgrade...

With a resale value of below $10K for the S2(P) I don't expect many S2/S users to put in an additional $15K or more for high ISO...

[BernardLanguillier]

OTOH, 37,5 is more than enough for a lot of applications. The S was designed with handheld shooting in mind and that might become more difficult with more MP's. Perhaps the high resolving power of the S lenses will make up for the 10-12 MP difference with the competition.

Yes, maybe. I feel that the Otus 55mm f1.4 is giving me a lot of resolution on the D810 already at f1.4... not to mention f4, but who knows.



Cheers,
Bernard

[torger]

Going for 37.5 MP or 50 MP is not just a business choice, it's a technical one. They may have put more pixels in there if they could.

Pixel count and base ISO strongly suggests that it's the exact same sensor technology as in the Leica M typ 240, just on a larger chip. It's a lot simpler and cheaper to take the same pixel technology and make a larger chip, than developing a new smaller pixel and make that manufacturing ready. I also think that if they would make pixels smaller it would just show more clearly that Sony Exmor is still in a class of their own concerning raw sensor performance.

So if you want a preview on how the sensor performs, look at Leica M.

[Atina]

Are they really better than the Rodenstocks? (Genuine question - not trying to stir the pot!)

Kind regards,


Gerald.

Here is what Nick Rains (www.nickrains.com, www.nickrainsimaging.com) said some time ago (I posted this before):

I have been using the S2 for over two years and can attest to the S-System lenses being just stunning - better than anything I have ever used which includes, Hasselblad, Fujinon, Rodenstock, Schneider, Pentax 67, Mamiya, Olympus, Canon, Nikon etc etc. The 120 macro is crazy sharp with a superb bokeh - I'd love to put it on some sort of hi-res MDB like an IQ280 to see what it can really do.

One thing to consider regarding cost is that they are virtually future proof - the 37.5MB sensor in the S2 and S does not come close to doing justice to the lenses' resolving abilities. Anything they might bring out with a higher pixel count will work with these lenses, and they are built to last too. I'd wouldn't be surprised if they would resolve fully on a sensor of over 120MP.

I am still waiting to get my hands on the new 24mm, in fact any of the new stuff. It's slow arriving in Australia, the M240 has only just arrived but I expect to get my grubby paws on the new toys in the next few weeks with a bit of luck.

The quote was taken from here.

Here are his images with the Leica:

http://blog.leica-camera.com/tags/nick-rains/

[Theodoros]

I certainly am not looking for more MP...

But at $25K Leica is not going to attract much new users (if any) and it is going to be a hard sell to get existing S2/S users to upgrade...

With a resale value of below $10K for the S2(P) I don't expect many S2/S users to put in an additional $15K or more for high ISO...

I have to disagree with all six above posters... The idea behind the Leica S (i.e. having a camera of DSLR size and flexibility but with full MF performance integrated into it) is both brilliant and very well thought marketing wise... Leica has already attracted many MF users by giving them the ability to keep all their lenses and buy an S instead of a MFDB... now they are attacking the reasons why many advanced photographers keep a FF DSLR system in parallel to their MF system... (high ISO performance, speed and flexibility). I believe that there will be many Canon/Nikon users, at least those that also have an MF system in parallel to their FF DSLR, that will consider to sell their DSLR system and only add a Leica S which will be used with their MF lenses...
In fact, me as a Nikon user with 2 modern FF cameras (16&36mp) and 14 top quality lenses, I will certainly sell the lot of it, buy an S 007 and use it with my seven (7) Zeiss lenses I have for my Contax system... I will even have enough change left for a 24mm lens and even a second "S" S/H body... I will increase quality by far... keep the flexibility and high ISO perforformance, but most importantly... I will satisfy the ultimate photographer's dream which is to use as little as possible and achieve the maximum possible quality... I will even keep my 528c back to use with my Contax for whenever the ultimate photographic quality is required and I will also keep my Fuji GX680 to use with the 528c... until Cambo provides me with a solution that I will be able to use the 528c on one side and be able to use the C645 lenses (with movements) on the other...  

[Atina]

I'm not sure people really think that Leica S has 'full MF performance'.

As you see, many think Nikon D810 is better than this Leica.

What makes you so sure this will be a success?

[torger]

Concerning Rodenstocks vs Leica the lenses are designed for different purposes making them difficult to compare. Rodenstock Digarons aren't generally used for shallow DoF photography, and aren't optimized to perform best wide open. The Rodies also have large image circles designed for shifting and tilting, and designed for being used with larger sensors than Leica S.

I doubt Leica S type of lenses would provide any specific advantage in landscape and architecture photography over tech cam lenses.

A fair direct comparison would perhaps be the "LEICA TS-APO-Elmar-S 120mm f/5.6 ASPH" with a Schneider Digitar 120mm/5.6 N aspheric in some technical photography with shift, those lenses aim for the same applications. For this longer focal length I would expect similar performance. Try match the field of view from an IQ260 with Rodenstock Digaron-W 32mm and get the same image quality from an Leica S system will of course be difficult...

[Theodoros]

I'm not sure people really think that Leica S has 'full MF performance'.

As you see, many think Nikon D810 is better than this Leica.

What makes you so sure this will be a success?

My old 22mp MFDB when used (in single shot) with my C645 Zeiss glass is already better than my 36mp Nikon when used with top dedicated glass...  

EDIT: "At comparable Iso..."

[Atina]

Torger, where do you think Leica will excel at? If it will anywhere at all.

What do you think its purpose is in the medium-format universe?

[Theodoros]

Torger, where do you think Leica will excel at? If it will anywhere at all.

What do you think its purpose is in the medium-format universe?

Look... Leica is already using MF sensors (cropped down by little to their unique image area) to a degree that is insignificant to affect sensor performance (unless if one is so naive as to think that 37.5mps are visually different to 50 (same)mp)... When one uses capable lenses (like C645 lenses are) there is the extra benefit that an ideal part of the lens is used for full aperture performance (corners are cropped out exactly to the degree required)... I hope the rest is easily understandable. 

[torger]

Torger, where do you think Leica will excel at? If it will anywhere at all.

What do you think its purpose is in the medium-format universe?

I think it will excel in portrait, fashion, commercial, classic MF pro stuff. The lens reputation probably comes from how they render images wide open in portraits, looking at things like contrast, bokeh, transition from in focus to out of focus, ie soft subjective metrics, more so than resolving power.

[TMARK]

I think it will excel in portrait, fashion, commercial, classic MF pro stuff. The lens reputation probably comes from how they render images wide open in portraits, looking at things like contrast, bokeh, transition from in focus to out of focus, ie soft subjective metrics, more so than resolving power.

This is true.  Where 645 film would have been used in the old days, the S is perfect.

[Theodoros]

This is true.  Where 645 film would have been used in the old days, the S is perfect.

Why not use film then? ...and save the cash?

[TMARK]

Why not use film then?

No one pays for film anymore, unless you are Nadav Kander.  Its commercial reality.  Budgets are super tight, so a line item for $1500 for film processing and proofs is not looked at kindley.  The money riding on a shoot is too big to "trust" film, and if you happen to not be in New York, LA or London reliable, consistent labs are few and far between.

I like film better, no doubt, but film is a fuzzy memory for almost all professionals.

[Theodoros]

No one pays for film anymore, unless you are Nadav Kander.  Its commercial reality.  Budgets are super tight, so a line item for $1500 for film processing and proofs is not looked at kindley.  The money riding on a shoot is too big to "trust" film, and if you happen to not be in New York, LA or London reliable, consistent labs are few and far between.

I like film better, no doubt, but film is a fuzzy memory for almost all professionals.

Exactly my thoughts... why the suggestion then? ...OTOH, there are plenty if ED 9000s in the market (I have one too but not selling it)....

[Atina]

I don't he suggested it; I think you thought he suggested it.

[Atina]

Look... Leica is already using MF sensors (cropped down by little to their unique image area) to a degree that is insignificant to affect sensor performance (unless if one is so naive as to think that 37.5mps are visually different to 50 (same)mp)... When one uses capable lenses (like C645 lenses are) there is the extra benefit that an ideal part of the lens is used for full aperture performance (corners are cropped out exactly to the degree required)... I hope the rest is easily understandable. 

To a degree or in a size?

[Theodoros]

To a degree or in a size?

with respect to what? ...is it a wonder on the 37.5 vs. 50mp difference for the same pixel size? ...as it happens with the sensor Leica uses vs. (say) H4-50?
 There is no significant difference up to the same print size (for the same AOV using the appropriate lenses to achieve it)... none that a pro would consider as significant anyway. 

[TMARK]

Exactly my thoughts... why the suggestion then? ...OTOH, there are plenty if ED 9000s in the market (I have one too but not selling it)....

I didn't suggest anyone use film.  I said where 645 film would have been used in the past, the S is perfect.  

I really like fim, and for fine art or promotion it might make sense, but the entire infrastructure that supported film is in ruins.

[Theodoros]

I didn't suggest anyone use film.  I said where 645 film would have been used in the past, the S is perfect.  

I really like fim, and for fine art or promotion it might make sense, but the entire infrastructure that supported film is in ruins.

I just don't see the relevance of suggesting that the camera is good instead of film use... Leica was wise enough to attract users of other MF in their field and now proves even wiser to attract FF users of Canon and Nikon to their field... isn't that enough?