Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Atina on September 13, 2014, 06:31:07 am
-
Leica is scheduled to announce a new version of its medium-format Leica S camera.
The company will present the new products on 16 September at 9 A.M. Central European Time.
They released the first teaser:
http://view.my.leica-camera.com/?j=fe9a15717462057a71&m=fe9012717c60017874&ls=fe2e167177620c7e731071&l=ff60167870&s=fe61177371610c7a7514&jb=ff961578&ju=fe5a157574630d757015&r=0
Is anyone here interested? What would you like Leica to improve and add, and what do you think they will?
-
Everything comes to those who wait ..
-
Everything comes to those who wait ..
long enough to purchase used :)
e.
-
long enough to purchase used :)
e.
I guess current S-S2 S/H availability will improve further and prices will drop... I just hope that if they improve the sensor (possibly to a Cmos one made by Cmosis?) it'll offer significant high ISO improvement and will have about the same resolution... I don't want to see the "S" involved in the megapixel war that others have... I would also expect that if there is a new sensor, a version of it for a new Sinarback will also be introduced... maybe it is even a self contained back with multishot capability. I would also be thrilled if Leica has worked for a new focal plane shutter mechanism for the "S" body, that will allow 1/250 flash sync speed... Contax lens users will love that!
Imagine if Sinar will offer a self contained back with multishot capability for the H5X... before Hasselblad itself ever offer the 50c/50ms/200ms for its own camera... :D That will be a big point of concern for Hasselblad! Imagine pros buying a H5X body and some H lenses and use a Sinarback multishot back with it and with their tech/view camera, while use an S body with the same lenses for whenever DSLR flexibility is the requirement. ::)
-
Imagine if Sinar will offer a self contained back with multishot capability for the H5X... before Hasselblad itself ever offer the 50c/50ms/200ms for its own camera...
Last time I looked this thread was about the Leica S
-
This is a seminal product launch for Leica, one may well consider it even a 'make or break' moment. It will need to be CMOS and have increased resolution into the 50MP arena to stay competitive. Phase, Hassy, Leaf and Pentax have all played their hands, all with the SONY sensor - differentiated by a few features, their legacy advantages and disadvantages and their respective distribution and service networks. Oh, and I almost forgot – price.
I doubt the Leica will break new ground price-wise. I wish it would but realistically it would be somewhat out-of-character.
Leitz have the best MF lenses out there ( I know some in the MF crowd will wince at that one, but frankly Leica have the gravitas and the kudos – for the time being ) and they're the only one to offer such extensive MF lens cross-compatibility.
So, yup, this is the announcement that many have been waiting for. There have been, as usual, quite a few whispers circulating these past months – not all of them favourable – soon we'll know. Will Leica be the one to stand out from the crowd ? I hope so - and look forward to Michael's and Sean Reid's reviews with interest.
If it's a 'hit', Edmund will be proved right and the prices for the old used S's will fall. If it's a 'fail', then bcooter had better book that call to Steve Hendrix pdq (pretty-damn-quick) 'cos I suspect that the demand for quality used S's will spike up – much as the values for some quality M pre-ASPH lenses have increased since the beginning of the year.
-
Last time I looked this thread was about the Leica S
Last time I looked my post was about the like S and its position to the market... you only used a phrase (delibaretly) out of it (which doesn't stand alone for a conclusion) to make it look as out of topic... Which of course isn't a moral thing to do. :P
-
Apparently, there will be an entry-level S system for AUD 20,000 (USD 18,000; EUR 14,000) and a super S system with 4K video capability, GPS, and wi-fi, with a “if you're asking, you can't afford it” price tag:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3724964
-
I like Leica's approach. They quickly designed and made a superb S system lens line that is ready to handle much higher sensor resolution. Their lens line is just very complete. From the 24mm wide angle (somewhat easy to filter) to the 180mm, all lenses are superb. Only the Hasselblad H line comes close from wide angle to tele. The PhaseOne/Schnedier lenses are superb but they are missing high quality lenses that are easy to filter in the crucial 24-35mm range but I think all cover full frame 645 though.
Leica has refined the original S2 platform with the Leica S and the upcoming New Leica S should be even better. It's pretty amazing what they have done in a few years. Yes, the prices are astronomically high but one gets a feel that the company is continuously developing the system not standing still enjoying the profits. They are not resting on their laurels!
Tomorrow should be interesting. (not only for Leica ;) )
-
Apparently, there will be an entry-level S system for AUD 20,000 (USD 18,000; EUR 14,000) and a super S system with 4K video capability, GPS, and wi-fi, with a “if you're asking, you can't afford it” price tag:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3724964
Rational pricing from Leica? What is going to happen next - flocks of pigs in the sky and a breakout of universal peace?
Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction I guess. And they may poach quite a few Phase buyers who want a better shooting experience.
Edmund
-
Leitz have the best MF lenses out there...
Are they really better than the Rodenstocks? (Genuine question - not trying to stir the pot!)
Kind regards,
Gerald.
-
Are they really better than the Rodenstocks? (Genuine question - not trying to stir the pot!)
Kind regards,
Gerald.
I don't believe that success of the Leica system is based to the quality of the lenses, but rather it has a lot to do with the positioning of the body itself in the photographic market... Leica has chosen to offer a camera that competes with MF back quality, yet it is no bigger than a professional DSLR when in use. From that POV, if the camera will be able to add in its specification what it lacks from a top DSLR's main advantages, (High Iso performance and more speed) it may also replace the use of a DSLR in parallel to an MF system and thus fulfil the ultimate photographer's dream, which is to use as little equipment as possible with no compromise in quality.
The vast majority of MF users currently are using a FF DSLR system along their MF system, if Leica S could replace their D800/E/810 or their 5Dmk3 for what they use it, then the DSLR would become obsolete and the photographer could save a fortune by getting rid of his DSLR altogether, yet adding a modern MFDB to his system.
Take a Contax 645 user for instance... adding a S/H MFDB is about the same cost as adding a S/H Leica S into his system, while adding a new MFDB is about as much with adding a new Leica S... But if the Leica S could save him from having a couple of D800Es and perhaps 7-8 lenses in addition to the above, he would increase both the flexibility of his system, as well as the quality of his work, while (in most cases) selling his DSLR system could provide him all he needs financially for perhaps more than a Leica S...
Now given that none ever complained for the quality of Zeiss glass for the Contax or Hassy glass for the H system and given that Leica with their 24mm lens gives a reliable solution for WA to all MF users that have compatible lenses with Leica's system, the choice of a Leica S looks more appealing and feasible than ever for these people (who neither are a small number, nor have to finance a new investment since they may sell their FF DSLRs and lenses) provided of course that they will find with the "S" what they invested for in their DSLRs!
Therefore, I would expect Leica, to: 1. Provide a more capable camera for higher Iso performance 2. Provide a faster camera 3. Support even more of quality MF lenses (Rollei 6xxx/HY6 system comes immediately into mind) and attract more customers into their system.
-
All very interesting, but totally irrelevant to the question asked.
Did you quote my post by mistake?
-
Are they really better than the Rodenstocks? (Genuine question - not trying to stir the pot!)
I was referring more to the Hasselblad, Schneider, Pentax and Mamiya autofocus MF offerings. Aren't Rodenstocks more for tech cams ? Nevertheless, the short answer is: I don't know - I haven't used them.
Best,
Manoli
-
I was referring more to the Hasselblad, Schneider, Pentax and Mamiya autofocus MF offerings. Aren't Rodenstocks more for tech cams ? Nevertheless, the short answer is: I don't know - I haven't used them.
Best,
Manoli
Thanks for the clarification. It's certainly my understanding that the Rodenstocks are better than any of the DSLR body MF lenses, but I do appreciate that Leica glass is legendary.
Having never used them nor seen a direct comparison, I am genuinely interested in just how good the Leica glass is.
Ignoring the movement capabilities of the tech lenses on the tech cameras, and (typically for my usage) speed of the lens, if a Leica lens is better than a Rodie for a specific focal length, then I'd very much like to know about it.
Kind regards,
Gerald.
-
Never made a comparison between Rodies against top quality MF glass either... but why bother? I doubt larger image circle lenses like all lenses designed to serve movements are, will be better than top quality MF glass (not only Leica, but Contax or Hasselblad or Rollei 6xxx too) for MF size image area. What's the point of comparing trivial lens differences anyway? Usually, the glass that diffracts when wider open, has better performance for the smaller image area. I believe that given the slower speeds of LF lenses the comparison is pointless... Both are designed to impress the users that they apply to.
-
Having never used them nor seen a direct comparison, I am genuinely interested in just how good the Leica glass is.
Ignoring the movement capabilities of the tech lenses on the tech cameras, and (typically for my usage) speed of the lens, if a Leica lens is better than a Rodie for a specific focal length, then I'd very much like to know about it.
It's an interesting question, unfortunately outside both my field of experience and even further outside my level of competence ! For reference, had a quick look at Rodenstock MTF's (http://www.rodenstock-photo.com/mediabase/original/e_Rodenstock_Photo_Optics_1-75__8347.pdf) compared to the Leica S (http://en.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-S/Leica-S-Lenses) equivalents.
Best,
Manoli
-
Don't know anything about charts, but on my S2 using mostly Ziess Contax, with one Leica 120mm, the difference is the Contax lenses are razor sharp and have more contrast, than the leica, soft of like you turned sharpening and contrast up in post.
The Leica lens is sharp, probably as sharp in reality, though has a smoother roll off from mid tones to shadows.
It just depends on the look you want. The Leica lenses, more film like with a look of smoothness, the contax Zeiss some would say more digital like with higher contrast.
Both can be equalized closely in post.
Bottom line is there is a Leica lens look and it's hard to explain until you see the same image side by side.
For the costs, I'm always surprised at the number of DP's that spec Leica cine lenses, but when you see the look, I assume it's to give a more film like feel to digital.
For personal reasons, I hope Lecia succeeds with the S, for my wallet, I kind of wish the lenses didn't look so pretty.
IMO
BC
-
If it's a 'hit', Edmund will be proved right and the prices for the old used S's will fall. If it's a 'fail', then bcooter had better book that call to Steve Hendrix pdq (pretty-damn-quick) 'cos I suspect that the demand for quality used S's will spike up – much as the values for some quality M pre-ASPH lenses have increased since the beginning of the year.
Will they fall?
What about the newcomers to the brand wanting a back up body? Or will they be so reasonably priced new they will all take two?
Leica/ reasonably priced - is an oxymoron
-
Will they fall?
What about the newcomers to the brand wanting a back up body? Or will they be so reasonably priced new they will all take two?
Leica/ reasonably priced - is an oxymoron
I know nothing about why or why not camera prices fall, but Leica prices don't seem to drop off the planet like other digital, as long as it's pure leica and not panasonic clones.
I doubt seriously if S2's or S's will drop to nothing (though edmund does his best to put that thought out there) just because the M9 has held it's price almost to the level of new, (if you could actually find a new M9).
Last year I was at a Leica dealer in London and he said once the m240 was out and Leica fanatics saw the results, the dealer sold his entire 24 m9's in a day and has a constant list of customers waiting for any M9 in good shape.
I doubt of the S2/S will be at that level, but I think the price you see today is pretty close to the price they will be for a long time.
I have to admit that if you've used an S/S2 the design and build quality just hit the perfect spot of feel and use. It really is a great system and if we only shot stills I'd buy the new cmos S and probably never look back.
IMO
BC
P.S. We rarely sell our old equipment (my bad) but I just sold our Sony FS100. Two days after we listed it a guy wanted it, but Sony dropped the price of it new, equal to what I was asking. I told the buyer he would be better off with new, but he wanted it and bought it for the asking price. Now I did throw in the SSD drive for free, so maybe that was the reason.
Go figure.
-
I know nothing about why or why not camera prices fall, but Leica prices don't seem to drop off the planet like other digital, as long as it's pure leica and not panasonic clones.
I doubt seriously if S2's or S's will drop to nothing (though edmund does his best to put that thought out there) just because the M9 has held it's price almost to the level of new, (if you could actually find a new M9).
Last year I was at a Leica dealer in London and he said once the m240 was out and Leica fanatics saw the results, the dealer sold his entire 24 m9's in a day and has a constant list of customers waiting for any M9 in good shape.
I doubt of the S2/S will be at that level, but I think the price you see today is pretty close to the price they will be for a long time.
I have to admit that if you've used an S/S2 the design and build quality just hit the perfect spot of feel and use. It really is a great system and if we only shot stills I'd buy the new cmos S and probably never look back.
IMO
BC
P.S. We rarely sell our old equipment (my bad) but I just sold our Sony FS100. Two days after we listed it a guy wanted it, but Sony dropped the price of it new, equal to what I was asking. I told the buyer he would be better off with new, but he wanted it and bought it for the asking price. Now I did throw in the SSD drive for free, so maybe that was the reason.
Go figure.
Do you miss more pixels?
-
I doubt seriously if S2's or S's will drop to nothing (though edmund does his best to put that thought out there) just because the M9 has held it's price almost to the level of new, (if you could actually find a new M9).
Last year I was at a Leica dealer in London and he said once the m240 was out and Leica fanatics saw the results, the dealer sold his entire 24 m9's in a day and has a constant list of customers waiting for any M9 in good shape.
[..]
Well in a recent article in Die Welt (http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/webwelt/article131938877/Japaner-schiessen-sich-marketingtechnisch-ins-Knie.html), Alfred Schopf, CEO of Leica claims they're selling 300-350 M-E's a month. No new M9's around but the M-E is CCD.
The Leica lens is sharp, probably as sharp in reality, though has a smoother roll off from mid tones to shadows. It just depends on the look you want. The Leica lenses, more film like with a look of smoothness, the contax Zeiss some would say more digital like with higher contrast.
[..]
Which pretty much sums up the historical difference between the two marques.
-
Which pretty much sums up the historical difference between the two marques.
Exactly what I was thinking... I also expect Leica glass to be less flare resistant than Zeiss... C645 glass is superb in that matter, which of course helps for the more contrasty look.
-
Well in a recent article in Die Welt (http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/webwelt/article131938877/Japaner-schiessen-sich-marketingtechnisch-ins-Knie.html), Alfred Schopf, CEO of Leica claims they're selling 300-350 M-E's a month. No new M9's around but the M-E is CCD.
The M-E is essentially an M9 minus two features, a different color and offered at $5.5K (or $1.5K less than the regular M240 price of $7K).
Perhaps Leica will do something similar for the Leica S and release a Leica S-E?
The current promotion (extended till end of September I believe) has the Leica S priced at $17K (instead of $22K), so I guess it would need to be lower then for it to make sense?
-
The M-E is essentially an M9 minus two features, a different color and offered at $5.5K (or $1.5K less than the regular M240 price of $7K).
Perhaps Leica will do something similar for the Leica S and release a Leica S-E?
The current promotion (extended till end of September I believe) has the Leica S priced at $17K (instead of $22K), so I guess it would need to be lower then for it to make sense?
A clean M9 in black or silver with a Red Dot goes from around 4k US to 8k, but averages around $4,000.
If Leica is still selling mps with ccd filters then I guess they'll continue, though I wonder how many sensors they have access to?
I wish Leica would take a page out of Fuji (and lately Olympus book) and offer some retro upgrades, especially on tethering.
I know the M isn't thought of as a studio camera but the m8 and m9 have one of the most beautiful responses to studio flash (especially profoto) as any camera I've ever used and honestly could shoot more projects with them if I could tether.
Regardless I think this gives some idea of where S2 and S pricing will go with the S probably holding close to it's present price for a while, maybe longer depending on the reviews of the cmos S.
IMO
BC
-
B, I thought you would be the first in line to buy the new Leica S. ;D :D
-
B, I thought you would be the first in line to buy the new Leica S. ;D :D
Lets see the product first... He may be the second! I have two good FF bodies of Nikon and 14 top quality lenses of them of which I would be glad to get rid off... ;)
EDIT: ...if it "covers" what I keep the Nikon system for... :-X ...second body can be a S/H S2... ;)
-
Here they are:
http://www.fotointern.ch/archiv/2014/09/16/leica-s-neues-mittelformat-topmodell-mit-cmos-und-video-sowie-einsteigermodell/
http://www.digitalkamera.de/Meldung/Mittelformat-Profis_Leica_S_Typ_007_und_S-E_Typ_006/9112.aspx
http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Leica-S-E-Typ-006
http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Leicas-Topmodell-Die-neue-S-Typ-007
-
Ja aber ich weiß nicht sprechen oder lesen Deutsch vielen Dank ::)
-
Here's a link in english http://en.leica-camera.com/World-of-Leica/Leica-at-photokina-2014/Leica-at-photokina-2014/New-Products
-
Ja aber ich weiß nicht sprechen oder lesen Deutsch vielen Dank ::)
Google Translate? 8)
But even that's superfluous.
-
There seems to be a disagreement on the CMOS sensor resolution of the 007... The German article claims a 50mp sensor, while BH http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1082939-REG/leica_10804_leica_s_medium_format.html claims 37.5mp. I hope for the second to be true. ;)
It also appears that there will be two versions of the new S, one with CMOS sensor (available next spring), and another with the existing CCD sensor and similar specifications to the 006 (immediate availability). There also seems that there will be a new (lower) pricing policy... The CCD sensor camera is said to be available for 13000 Euros... From first site it looks very promising... I think I'll LEICA it.... :)
-
There seems to be a disagreement on the CMOS sensor resolution of the 007... The German article claims a 50mp sensor, while BH http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1082939-REG/leica_10804_leica_s_medium_format.html claims 37.5mp. I hope for the second to be true. ;)
It also appears that there will be two versions of the new S, one with CMOS sensor (available next spring), and another with the existing CCD sensor and similar specifications to the 006 (immediate availability). There also seems that there will be a new (lower) pricing policy... The CCD sensor camera is said to be available for 13000 Euros... From first site it looks very promising... I think I'll LEICA it.... :)
The .pdf in English here says 37.5mp CMOS.
http://en.leica-camera.com/content/download/120629/1219102/version/16/file/Technical-Data-Leica-S-Typ007_EN.pdf
Is it just me or they have just killed the re-sell value of second hand S2 with the S-E?
Cheers,
Bernard
-
The .pdf in English here says 37.5mp CMOS.
And no info on who manufactures the new CMOS sensor. Clearly not the SONY 50MP offering of the other makers.
-
And no info on who manufactures the new CMOS sensor. Clearly not the SONY 50MP offering of the other makers.
CMOSIS probably. As in the M240. Leica are reusing their established color science and filtering algorithms.
Edmund
-
And no info on who manufactures the new CMOS sensor. Clearly not the SONY 50MP offering of the other makers.
It most certainly is a Leica sensor, most probably in co-development with Belgian Cmosis, like the M Cmos sensor is... Certainly the resolution of 37.5mp perfectly matches the resolution (per area) of 24mp that is used on the 24x36mm Cmos sensor for the M. ;)
-
I'm not an expert on video-tech and I wonder what people who are working with motion/digital cinema think of the video specs? Can internal recording of motion jpeg be up to 2014 standards?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_JPEG
I guess they chose wisely, deciding to make 4k a sensor crop into the super 35 format and external recording sounds nice.
-
Is it just me or they have just killed the re-sell value of second hand S2 with the S-E?
The CDD Leica S was already available at $17K (special promotion). Leica seems to have prolonged that and it will be labeled the Leica S-E now.
The new CMOS Leica is now $25.4K which is a price increase of $3.5K. I will only be available during Q2 next year.
Unless there is more beef somewhere this appears to be a bit underwhelming IMO...
-
Unless there is more beef somewhere this appears to be a bit underwhelming IMO...
Yup. underwhelming.
Leica rather crippled themselves by establishing the whole S system around a 30x45mm sensor. It needed to be bigger.
If the new sensor is 'just' 37.5Mp it is falling behind other less-than-ff sensor offerings like those from Sony, with the D800/810 is nipping at its heels.
People go up to MF for substantially more pixels, among other reasons. A new S should have come in at around 48-50Mp to keep it alive and broadly appealing.
-
OTOH, 37,5 is more than enough for a lot of applications. The S was designed with handheld shooting in mind and that might become more difficult with more MP's. Perhaps the high resolving power of the S lenses will make up for the 10-12 MP difference with the competition.
But you're right, marketing-wise 37,5 MP is a bit underwhelming.
-
I certainly am not looking for more MP...
But at $25K Leica is not going to attract much new users (if any) and it is going to be a hard sell to get existing S2/S users to upgrade...
With a resale value of below $10K for the S2(P) I don't expect many S2/S users to put in an additional $15K or more for high ISO...
-
OTOH, 37,5 is more than enough for a lot of applications. The S was designed with handheld shooting in mind and that might become more difficult with more MP's. Perhaps the high resolving power of the S lenses will make up for the 10-12 MP difference with the competition.
Yes, maybe. I feel that the Otus 55mm f1.4 is giving me a lot of resolution on the D810 already at f1.4... not to mention f4, but who knows. ;)
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5556/15070933058_37b4bc2366_o.jpg)
Cheers,
Bernard
-
Going for 37.5 MP or 50 MP is not just a business choice, it's a technical one. They may have put more pixels in there if they could.
Pixel count and base ISO strongly suggests that it's the exact same sensor technology as in the Leica M typ 240, just on a larger chip. It's a lot simpler and cheaper to take the same pixel technology and make a larger chip, than developing a new smaller pixel and make that manufacturing ready. I also think that if they would make pixels smaller it would just show more clearly that Sony Exmor is still in a class of their own concerning raw sensor performance.
So if you want a preview on how the sensor performs, look at Leica M.
-
Are they really better than the Rodenstocks? (Genuine question - not trying to stir the pot!)
Kind regards,
Gerald.
Here is what Nick Rains (www.nickrains.com, www.nickrainsimaging.com) said some time ago (I posted this before):
I have been using the S2 for over two years and can attest to the S-System lenses being just stunning - better than anything I have ever used which includes, Hasselblad, Fujinon, Rodenstock, Schneider, Pentax 67, Mamiya, Olympus, Canon, Nikon etc etc. The 120 macro is crazy sharp with a superb bokeh - I'd love to put it on some sort of hi-res MDB like an IQ280 to see what it can really do.
One thing to consider regarding cost is that they are virtually future proof - the 37.5MB sensor in the S2 and S does not come close to doing justice to the lenses' resolving abilities. Anything they might bring out with a higher pixel count will work with these lenses, and they are built to last too. I'd wouldn't be surprised if they would resolve fully on a sensor of over 120MP.
I am still waiting to get my hands on the new 24mm, in fact any of the new stuff. It's slow arriving in Australia, the M240 has only just arrived but I expect to get my grubby paws on the new toys in the next few weeks with a bit of luck.
The quote was taken from here (http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2013/05/the-leica-s-system.html).
Here are his images with the Leica:
http://blog.leica-camera.com/tags/nick-rains/
-
I certainly am not looking for more MP...
But at $25K Leica is not going to attract much new users (if any) and it is going to be a hard sell to get existing S2/S users to upgrade...
With a resale value of below $10K for the S2(P) I don't expect many S2/S users to put in an additional $15K or more for high ISO...
I have to disagree with all six above posters... The idea behind the Leica S (i.e. having a camera of DSLR size and flexibility but with full MF performance integrated into it) is both brilliant and very well thought marketing wise... Leica has already attracted many MF users by giving them the ability to keep all their lenses and buy an S instead of a MFDB... now they are attacking the reasons why many advanced photographers keep a FF DSLR system in parallel to their MF system... (high ISO performance, speed and flexibility). I believe that there will be many Canon/Nikon users, at least those that also have an MF system in parallel to their FF DSLR, that will consider to sell their DSLR system and only add a Leica S which will be used with their MF lenses...
In fact, me as a Nikon user with 2 modern FF cameras (16&36mp) and 14 top quality lenses, I will certainly sell the lot of it, buy an S 007 and use it with my seven (7) Zeiss lenses I have for my Contax system... I will even have enough change left for a 24mm lens and even a second "S" S/H body... I will increase quality by far... keep the flexibility and high ISO perforformance, but most importantly... I will satisfy the ultimate photographer's dream which is to use as little as possible and achieve the maximum possible quality... I will even keep my 528c back to use with my Contax for whenever the ultimate photographic quality is required and I will also keep my Fuji GX680 to use with the 528c... until Cambo provides me with a solution that I will be able to use the 528c on one side and be able to use the C645 lenses (with movements) on the other... ;)
-
I'm not sure people really think that Leica S has 'full MF performance'.
As you see, many think Nikon D810 is better than this Leica.
What makes you so sure this will be a success?
-
Concerning Rodenstocks vs Leica the lenses are designed for different purposes making them difficult to compare. Rodenstock Digarons aren't generally used for shallow DoF photography, and aren't optimized to perform best wide open. The Rodies also have large image circles designed for shifting and tilting, and designed for being used with larger sensors than Leica S.
I doubt Leica S type of lenses would provide any specific advantage in landscape and architecture photography over tech cam lenses.
A fair direct comparison would perhaps be the "LEICA TS-APO-Elmar-S 120mm f/5.6 ASPH" with a Schneider Digitar 120mm/5.6 N aspheric in some technical photography with shift, those lenses aim for the same applications. For this longer focal length I would expect similar performance. Try match the field of view from an IQ260 with Rodenstock Digaron-W 32mm and get the same image quality from an Leica S system will of course be difficult...
-
I'm not sure people really think that Leica S has 'full MF performance'.
As you see, many think Nikon D810 is better than this Leica.
What makes you so sure this will be a success?
My old 22mp MFDB when used (in single shot) with my C645 Zeiss glass is already better than my 36mp Nikon when used with top dedicated glass... ;)
EDIT: "At comparable Iso..."
-
Torger, where do you think Leica will excel at? If it will anywhere at all.
What do you think its purpose is in the medium-format universe?
-
Torger, where do you think Leica will excel at? If it will anywhere at all.
What do you think its purpose is in the medium-format universe?
Look... Leica is already using MF sensors (cropped down by little to their unique image area) to a degree that is insignificant to affect sensor performance (unless if one is so naive as to think that 37.5mps are visually different to 50 (same)mp)... When one uses capable lenses (like C645 lenses are) there is the extra benefit that an ideal part of the lens is used for full aperture performance (corners are cropped out exactly to the degree required)... I hope the rest is easily understandable. 8)
-
Torger, where do you think Leica will excel at? If it will anywhere at all.
What do you think its purpose is in the medium-format universe?
I think it will excel in portrait, fashion, commercial, classic MF pro stuff. The lens reputation probably comes from how they render images wide open in portraits, looking at things like contrast, bokeh, transition from in focus to out of focus, ie soft subjective metrics, more so than resolving power.
-
I think it will excel in portrait, fashion, commercial, classic MF pro stuff. The lens reputation probably comes from how they render images wide open in portraits, looking at things like contrast, bokeh, transition from in focus to out of focus, ie soft subjective metrics, more so than resolving power.
This is true. Where 645 film would have been used in the old days, the S is perfect.
-
This is true. Where 645 film would have been used in the old days, the S is perfect.
Why not use film then? ...and save the cash?
-
Why not use film then?
No one pays for film anymore, unless you are Nadav Kander. Its commercial reality. Budgets are super tight, so a line item for $1500 for film processing and proofs is not looked at kindley. The money riding on a shoot is too big to "trust" film, and if you happen to not be in New York, LA or London reliable, consistent labs are few and far between.
I like film better, no doubt, but film is a fuzzy memory for almost all professionals.
-
No one pays for film anymore, unless you are Nadav Kander. Its commercial reality. Budgets are super tight, so a line item for $1500 for film processing and proofs is not looked at kindley. The money riding on a shoot is too big to "trust" film, and if you happen to not be in New York, LA or London reliable, consistent labs are few and far between.
I like film better, no doubt, but film is a fuzzy memory for almost all professionals.
Exactly my thoughts... why the suggestion then? ...OTOH, there are plenty if ED 9000s in the market (I have one too but not selling it).... ;)
-
I don't he suggested it; I think you thought he suggested it. :D
-
Look... Leica is already using MF sensors (cropped down by little to their unique image area) to a degree that is insignificant to affect sensor performance (unless if one is so naive as to think that 37.5mps are visually different to 50 (same)mp)... When one uses capable lenses (like C645 lenses are) there is the extra benefit that an ideal part of the lens is used for full aperture performance (corners are cropped out exactly to the degree required)... I hope the rest is easily understandable. 8)
To a degree or in a size?
-
To a degree or in a size?
with respect to what? ...is it a wonder on the 37.5 vs. 50mp difference for the same pixel size? ...as it happens with the sensor Leica uses vs. (say) H4-50?
There is no significant difference up to the same print size (for the same AOV using the appropriate lenses to achieve it)... none that a pro would consider as significant anyway. 8)
-
Exactly my thoughts... why the suggestion then? ...OTOH, there are plenty if ED 9000s in the market (I have one too but not selling it).... ;)
I didn't suggest anyone use film. I said where 645 film would have been used in the past, the S is perfect.
I really like fim, and for fine art or promotion it might make sense, but the entire infrastructure that supported film is in ruins.
-
I didn't suggest anyone use film. I said where 645 film would have been used in the past, the S is perfect.
I really like fim, and for fine art or promotion it might make sense, but the entire infrastructure that supported film is in ruins.
I just don't see the relevance of suggesting that the camera is good instead of film use... Leica was wise enough to attract users of other MF in their field and now proves even wiser to attract FF users of Canon and Nikon to their field... isn't that enough?
-
Again, he just said that the field where the ancient 645 film camera would have been used, Leica is now a modern solution.
-
For photographers to use ONE system capable for everything is a real dream case... a blessing! If I could suggest for Leica their next move, now that they invested on Sinar, it would be to try and resurrect Contax 645...
They would then add a considerable base of customers to their base, they could design new lenses for the C645 system that would be fully compatible with the S system, they could use Sinarbacks on their C645 bodies, they would "bridge" the two systems (leica & sinar) perfectly, they could have P3 upgraded to accept C645 backs, they would offer many photographers a path that maximises every penny's worth in investing on to a system...
Imagine... A DSLR, an MFDB and a view camera with only 10 lenses and 3-4 bodies... all the flexibility, all the accuracy, all the quality with just that... a dream for every photographer... a system that would be CHEAP by design... not by value!
-
Again, he just said that the field where the ancient 645 film camera would have been used, Leica is now a modern solution.
No... he said it would be "perfect"... as if other MF wouldn't be the same or better... ;)
-
No, he didn't. He explained it.
-
No, he didn't. He explained it.
....and I explained it further.
-
Here is what Nick Rains (www.nickrains.com, www.nickrainsimaging.com) said some time ago (I posted this before):
The quote was taken from here (http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2013/05/the-leica-s-system.html).
Here are his images with the Leica:
http://blog.leica-camera.com/tags/nick-rains/
Peter Karbe said the S glass can resolve 2um.. this is way more then 120mp..
"With the 6µm pixel pitch of the S2's sensor the lenses need to be able to resolve 83 lp/mm and I inquired if this was a challenge. This wasn't my first time conversing with Peter. I should have known better than to ask him a question like this. He got that "are you joking?" look on his face, grinned and said in no uncertain words that 80 lp/mm is not a problem, even at full aperture. He pointed out that the S lenses are capable of resolving 40 lp/mm at 80% contrast, wide-open, and estimated that 80 lp/mm could be resolved at about 60% contrast. So, the lenses clearly outresolve the current sensor. What about future generations? Where is the practical pixel limit for 30x45mm? Many have postulated that the next big advance in CCD sensor tech will be a 5µm pixel architecture with a close-to 100% fill rate. This would result in a 54MP sensor at 30x45mm, but with this pixel size, the lenses would need to resolve 100 lp/mm. Will the S lenses be up to the task? Again, Peter flashed his signature grin and casually said that 100 lp/mm would be no problem. In fact, he felt the S lenses could resolve around 50% contrast at this frequency. No small claim, to be sure. My mind had already moved on to the next inevitable question. What exactly is the resolution of the S glass? Peter answered that he didn't know the exact figure, but guessed that the number would be between 200-300 lp/mm. That's a big number and a whole lot of detail."
Here is the article...http://dfarkas.blogspot.co.uk/2009/11/leica-s2-review-test-shooting-in.html (http://dfarkas.blogspot.co.uk/2009/11/leica-s2-review-test-shooting-in.html)
Rob
-
I just don't see the relevance of suggesting that the camera is good instead of film use... Leica was wise enough to attract users of other MF in their field and now proves even wiser to attract FF users of Canon and Nikon to their field... isn't that enough?
I believe you do not understand my post. I am talking about roles and function of a camera format, not the medium. Here is a little history: Up until 2004 645 cameras, shooting film, had a role in commercial photography: Better than 35mm film but with more agility than 6x7 or 4x5. This was perfect for fashion and lifestyle. That 645 role was taken over by the 1ds and other 35mm sized digital cameras. The Leica S can fill that role perfectly, as an analogue to the old 645 systems. That's all. I'm not arguing with you.
-
Again, he just said that the field where the ancient 645 film camera would have been used, Leica is now a modern solution.
Thanks you.
-
Peter,37.5 is underwhelming and I would have preferred to see the exmor sensor inside..However you have a point about smaller pixel pitch,I have a friend who moved from a H4d-40 to IQ280 ,he shoots portraits and loves the 280 files but finds it harder to use,especially hand held,he has a lot less keepers with the 280,Its great for tripod work though!
best
Rob
-
I believe you do not understand my post. I am talking about roles and function of a camera format, not the medium. Here is a little history: Up until 2004 645 cameras, shooting film, had a role in commercial photography: Better than 35mm film but with more agility than 6x7 or 4x5. This was perfect for fashion and lifestyle. That 645 role was taken over by the 1ds and other 35mm sized digital cameras. The Leica S can fill that role perfectly, as an analogue to the old 645 systems. That's all. I'm not arguing with you.
I'm not arguing either... my reply (clearly) has to do with why one should address all that to Leica than any other MF camera. If the reply on the Q asked was "MF can replace" rather than "Leica can replace" (which was the assumption from your quote), I would have never interfered... I only made clear that your quote is not a specific advantage of Leica... (with respect to other MF). Neither I believe that the (original) question was asking for ...film qualities (in general).
-
Peter,37.5 is underwhelming and I would have preferred to see the exmor sensor inside..However you have a point about smaller pixel pitch,I have a friend who moved from a H4d-40 to IQ280 ,he shoots portraits and loves the 280 files but finds it harder to use,especially hand held,he has a lot less keepers with the 280,Its great for tripod work though!
best
Rob
OTOH one may argue that 37.5 is more than plenty, that the sensor may have been less capable for High ISO if of higher resolution, that the camera might have been considerably slower, that other makers glass used on the camera (which is obviously targeted market by the camera) may not be as capable as Leica glass in resolving power... Or simply, they may have had a marketing analysis report that would have concluded in favour of the 37.5mp resolution with respect to a higher one... I believe that they will sell more cameras with the 37.5mp resolution than if it was higher... In fact I wouldn't be buying the product it was of 60 or even 50mp... I like it the way it is and I'm sure that most other buyers think the same! ...are you guys (that are suggesting more resolution) possible customers? ;)
I can see some considered as top wedding photographers working with this camera next summer... and perhaps some more emerging from the crowed (of wedding photographers) just because they've bought one... :D ...Bravo Leica! ...very clever of you!
-
You raised some good points here,and the speed does indeed set it apart from the other Medium format camera..
The only danger of using this relatively low res is that it is pretty close to the D810 which is pretty good and very cheap in comparison.
I have an S 006 and will more than likely keep it and take the Summicron f2 before I upgrade but the live view is tempting,more than resolution the spec that bugs me is why only 125sec long exposure? and base ISO 200?
I think the real reason for this resolution is that its existing tech from the M240,I guess it will be the next Photokina before we see a really new sensor.
Rob
-
Actually, I am very disappointed in the new Leica S as detailed in today's announcement.
As a professional photographer specializing in "fine art", aka landscape, urban decay, abstracts,
I typically make prints that are minimally 20x30 inches and often 40x60 inches. While 37 MP can
often suffice, I would prefer 50 - 60 MP (or even higher). I am disappointed that Leica did not
increase the resolution of the sensor.
I personally have no need for 4K video in a camera designed for still photography. If I want to shoot
video, I need a camera designed explicitly for this role.
At a minimum Leica should have released TWO models: one with a higher resolution sensor and NO video
and another model at 37 MP WITH video.
While I know "live view" can be useful, I seldom find it so because typically (especially with a NON articulated
LCD, such as on the new Leica) the glare simply makes it impossible to see.
Furthermore, Leica still has not improved the resolution of the LCD sufficiently to allow determination of
critical detail (focus) and remains behind other 35 mm brands.
The increased frame rate is nice and can be useful even in landscape photography.
The higher ISO is, of course, beneficial, and appreciated, but not sufficient to warrant an "upgrade."
For the price, Leica did not even include sapphire glass, which is another disappointment. These are not inexpensive
cameras!
I have the "original" S2. I was anxiously awaiting the new S, anticipating upgrading. The bad news-- I do not see
any enhancements that argue strongly for an upgrade. The good news-- I will save a lot of money!
Disappointed, majorly.
-
Actually, I am very disappointed in the new Leica S as detailed in today's announcement.
As a professional photographer specializing in "fine art", aka landscape, urban decay, abstracts,
I typically make prints that are minimally 20x30 inches and often 40x60 inches. While 37 MP can
often suffice, I would prefer 50 - 60 MP (or even higher). I am disappointed that Leica did not
increase the resolution of the sensor.
I personally have no need for 4K video in a camera designed for still photography. If I want to shoot
video, I need a camera designed explicitly for this role.
At a minimum Leica should have released TWO models: one with a higher resolution sensor and NO video
and another model at 37 MP WITH video.
While I know "live view" can be useful, I seldom find it so because typically (especially with a NON articulated
LCD, such as on the new Leica) the glare simply makes it impossible to see.
Furthermore, Leica still has not improved the resolution of the LCD sufficiently to allow determination of
critical detail (focus) and remains behind other 35 mm brands.
The increased frame rate is nice and can be useful even in landscape photography.
The higher ISO is, of course, beneficial, and appreciated, but not sufficient to warrant an "upgrade."
For the price, Leica did not even include sapphire glass, which is another disappointment. These are not inexpensive
cameras!
I have the "original" S2. I was anxiously awaiting the new S, anticipating upgrading. The bad news-- I do not see
any enhancements that argue strongly for an upgrade. The good news-- I will save a lot of money!
Disappointed, majorly.
Why do you need more resolution for only 40x60 inch prints?
EDIT: the camera can provide you with nearly 6x9 feet fine art prints for the resolution its sensor has... ;)
-
Is their anyway to use BB code's on LL?
Rob
-
I'm not arguing either... my reply (clearly) has to do with why one should address all that to Leica than any other MF camera. If the reply on the Q asked was "MF can replace" rather than "Leica can replace" (which was the assumption from your quote), I would have never interfered... I only made clear that your quote is not a specific advantage of Leica... (with respect to other MF). Neither I believe that the (original) question was asking for ...film qualities (in general).
Abundantly clear.
-
I think the real reason for this resolution is that its existing tech from the M240, I guess it will be the next Photokina before we see a really new sensor.
This!
The usage of the already existing M sensor to me seems to be more of a financial decision than a choice for the absolute best IQ in their flagship camera. Developing the sensor in co-operation with Cmosis required considerable investments that have to be earned back. Of course Leica marketing will say the sensor is unique, etc. and they are probaly right. And therein lies an opportunaty for Leica, maybe they can sell this new S as having a unique look because everyone else opted for the Sony sensor.
-
This!
The usage of the already existing M sensor to me seems to be more of a financial decision than a choice for the absolute best IQ in their flagship camera. Developing the sensor in co-operation with Cmosis required considerable investments that have to be earned back. Of course Leica marketing will say the sensor is unique, etc. and they are probaly right. And therein lies an opportunaty for Leica, maybe they can sell this new S as having a unique look because everyone else opted for the Sony sensor.
I think Blackmagic are using a sensor from the same family.
Edmund
-
This!
The usage of the already existing M sensor to me seems to be more of a financial decision than a choice for the absolute best IQ in their flagship camera. Developing the sensor in co-operation with Cmosis required considerable investments that have to be earned back. Of course Leica marketing will say the sensor is unique, etc. and they are probaly right. And therein lies an opportunaty for Leica, maybe they can sell this new S as having a unique look because everyone else opted for the Sony sensor.
ΟΤΟΗ... one may find it sensible that they started developing the sensor as an MF one... and just cropped it down to be used on an their FF camera... At least that's what they did with the CCD sensor used with the M9.... they cropped it down from an MF sensor keeping MF qualities into it (the only ones that did). ;) Look, Leica is NOT Nikon or Canon or P1 or Hasselblad... they are THE CREATORS of photography and they know it... The only thing they have to do is TO respect themselves, they'll never drop to a level as to explain their decisions... they just know what they are doing much better than any other... That's why they've survived Japan some 60 years ago, they've survived China or Thailand 10-20 years ago... and that's why they bought Sinar (losing money)! They just know more of photography and photographer's needs than others... ;) Simple as that! ;D
-
ΟΤΟΗ... one may find it sensible that they started developing the sensor as an MF one... and just cropped it down to be used on an their FF camera... At least that's what they did with the CCD sensor used with the M9.... they cropped it down from an MF sensor keeping MF qualities into it (the only ones that did). ;) Look, Leica is NOT Nikon or Canon or P1 or Hasselblad... they are THE CREATORS of photography and they know it... The only thing they have to do is TO respect themselves, they'll never drop to a level as to explain their decisions... they just know what they are doing much better than any other... That's why they've survived Japan some 60 years ago, they've survived China or Thailand 10-20 years ago... and that's why they bought Sinar (losing money)! They just know more of photography and photographer's needs than others... ;) Simple as that! ;D
;D
-
I think Blackmagic are using a sensor from the same family.
Yes, I heard that too. Here's to hoping that the files that'll come out of the new S will have outstanding colour and IQ!
-
I'm wondering, can one block certain posts by particular users on this forum? Is it possible?
-
ΟΤΟΗ... one may find it sensible that they started developing the sensor as an MF one... and just cropped it down to be used on an their FF camera... At least that's what they did with the CCD sensor used with the M9.... they cropped it down from an MF sensor keeping MF qualities into it (the only ones that did). ;) Look, Leica is NOT Nikon or Canon or P1 or Hasselblad... they are THE CREATORS of photography and they know it... The only thing they have to do is TO respect themselves, they'll never drop to a level as to explain their decisions... they just know what they are doing much better than any other... That's why they've survived Japan some 60 years ago, they've survived China or Thailand 10-20 years ago... and that's why they bought Sinar (losing money)! They just know more of photography and photographer's needs than others... ;) Simple as that! ;D
I think in this case it was the other way around; they needed a manufacturer that could make them a custom designed sensor in relatively low quantities for the M. Leica needed a sensor that could deal (as good as possible) with the steep angle of light coming out of the M lenses with special on sensor microlenses.
It would be quite something if Leica/Cmosis could come up with a 'better' sensor (think DXO mark ratings et al) than the Sony sensor that other MF camera makers chose, given the likely huge difference in R&D budgets. Of course a smaller R&D budget does not automatically mean worse IQ.
Anyway, maybe in a year the S sells like hot cakes because lots of photographers get fed up with 'the unified look' that comes out of all the Sony sensor-based cameras.
-
I'm wondering, can one block certain posts by particular users on this forum? Is it possible?
Yes, there is an ignore feature. I think Eric Hiss can tell you how it works.
Edmund
-
Yes, there is an ignore feature. I think Eric Hiss can tell you how it works.
Edmund
Is there? More details please.
-
I think in this case it was the other way around; they needed a manufacturer that could make them a custom designed sensor in relatively low quantities for the M. Leica needed a sensor that could deal (as good as possible) with the steep angle of light coming out of the M lenses with special on sensor microlenses.
It would be quite something if Leica/Cmosis could come up with a 'better' sensor (think DXO mark ratings et al) than the Sony sensor that other MF camera makers chose, given the likely huge difference in R&D budgets. Of course a smaller R&D budget does not automatically mean worse IQ.
Anyway, maybe in a year the S sells like hot cakes because lots of photographers get fed up with 'the unified look' that comes out of all the Sony sensor-based cameras.
Current S sensors also have "specially designed" micro lenses on them... and S is also a "steep angle" camera (for MF)... I don't think that Leica customers or Leica itself cares much about DXO findings... It didn't seem to affect their sales all that much up to now... neither I believe it will in the future.
-
Is there? More details please.
Profile>Modify Profile>Personal Message Options. Ignorelist - on the right-hand side.
-
Actually, I am very disappointed in the new Leica S as detailed in today's announcement.
As a professional photographer specializing in "fine art", aka landscape, urban decay, abstracts,
I typically make prints that are minimally 20x30 inches and often 40x60 inches. While 37 MP can
often suffice, I would prefer 50 - 60 MP (or even higher). I am disappointed that Leica did not
increase the resolution of the sensor.
Have you considered:
- A Zacuto viewfinder such as this (http://store.zacuto.com/z-finder-pro-3x-for-3-2-screens/)
- Stitching to reach righer resolutions. 50-60 mp is in fact a lowish resolution that is very easy to achieve if you stitch a few frames with a normal or longer than normal lens.
You could use either one of the Leica S, old or new although there are IMHO much cheaper option that are equal or superior.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
You could use either one of the Leica S or a Nikon D810 with an Otus which is IMHO close or suprerior for a much cheaper price.
Bernard,
Since when does the Leica S take Nikon mount ( or Canon) lenses ? Is there an adapter or have I missed something ?
M
-
Since when does the Leica S take Nikon mount ( or Canon) lenses ? Is there an adapter or have I missed something ?
It doesn't, both comments apply to the S.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
I don't think that Leica customers or Leica itself cares much about DXO findings...
DxOMark thought the M9 sensor was of inferior quality. It doesn't seem to have affected M9 sales…
That being said, the opinions about the CMOSIS sensor are divided. A lot of people like the M9 look but do not like the M240 look.
I guess Leica has about another year to get it right...
-
DxOMark thought the M9 sensor was of inferior quality. It doesn't seem to have affected M9 sales…
That being said, the opinions about the CMOSIS sensor are divided. A lot of people like the M9 look but do not like the M240 look.
I guess Leica has about another year to get it right...
Maybe that is exactly the reason why they offer two versions of the camera... A CCD one and the new CMOS along it...
-
Profile>Modify Profile>Personal Message Options. Ignorelist - on the right-hand side.
Brilliant, thanks!
-
Brilliant, thanks!
that just blocks pm’s not forum posts :(
-
that just blocks pm’s not forum posts :(
oops, apologies -
perhaps slobodan or jjj can answer - if all else fails and as a last resort, the only other solution I can think of is relying on mother nature's auto 'close-the-eye-lids' function ...
-
Have you considered:
- A Zacuto viewfinder such as this (http://store.zacuto.com/z-finder-pro-3x-for-3-2-screens/)
- Stitching to reach righer resolutions. 50-60 mp is in fact a lowish resolution that is very easy to achieve if you stitch a few frames with a normal or longer than normal lens.
You could use either one of the Leica S, old or new although there are IMHO much cheaper option that are equal or superior.
Cheers,
Bernard
Such as?
-
that just blocks pm’s not forum posts :(
PM Eric Hiss, he knows the trick.
Edmund
-
it works! just had to log out and in. many thanks ;D
-
The S2(007) is about 4K video. Pros with video budgets are probably the only ones who can afford this gear anymore. By incorporating what appear to be really well thought-out pro-grade video features, Leica has acted extremely intelligently. They satisfy the fat-walleted amateurs to whom price is irrelevant, and give the pro market a reason to look at them. I think it's impressively foward-thinking.
- N.
-
the video is motion jpeg? if you are serious about 4k you are better off not buying the ostrich leather strap for your Leica and buying something from panasonic instead.
-
the video is motion jpeg? if you are serious about 4k you are better off not buying the ostrich leather strap for your Leica and buying something from panasonic instead.
The latest Samsung NX1 appears to be a video killer - something entirely new in the compression.
And it probably costs as much as an S2 lens cap.
The nice thing about Leica are the lenses - I just wish they would do what Zeiss does and make them available in other mounts, including for MF gear - I'm sure the Phase shooters here would love a Leica lens, and when you pay $30K for the back alone a Leica lens makes sense.
http://www.eoshd.com/2014/09/photokina-report-day-1-samsung-nx1-4k-mirrorless-camera-h-265/
Edmund
-
The S2(007) is about 4K video. Pros with video budgets are probably the only ones who can afford this gear anymore. By incorporating what appear to be really well thought-out pro-grade video features, Leica has acted extremely intelligently. They satisfy the fat-walleted amateurs to whom price is irrelevant, and give the pro market a reason to look at them. I think it's impressively foward-thinking.
- N.
There are some wedding photographers that such a camera, especially one that bares the name Leica as a badge, will enhance their prestige and will strengthen their position against competition... High quality video is important to these people. Keep in mind that for many of those photographers, selling some (or all) of their DSLR equipment can pay for most of the investment required for a new S (007). These people may only be a small only percentage if compared to the vast majority of wedding photographers, but for the volumes of MF market, they are a huge number of possible additional customers.... The size of the camera, its wide lens compatibility and its high ISO performance are additional functions that make this camera attractive for these photographers.... still the decisive factor for them will be the "wow he is using a Leica - he is special" whisper of the customers which will strengthen their position in their business.
-
The S2(007) is about 4K video. ...
Nick, I really wonder what pro image makers who are into motion think of all this. Leica talks about 4K in super 35 in sensor crop mode, but they surely can't mean 24.89 mm × 18.66 mm which is a 4:3 aspect ratio. Perhaps 4K 16:9 recording on the new S is ~ 24 mm on the long side or something in that neighbourhood, whatever the length is for 4096 pixels. Then with this method there is quite a crop factor to deal with. The widest S lens (24 mm) will give the FOV of approximately a 30-35 mm lens in FF-terms.
How good is 8 bit motion jpeg if one wants to do serious color grading in post?
I'd like to hear what people who have more experience in motion production think of the video specs of the new S.
Here's a short interview at Photokina:
http://vimeo.com/106276551 (http://vimeo.com/106276551)
-
The S2(007) is about 4K video. [...] Leica has acted extremely intelligently. They satisfy the fat-walleted amateurs to whom price is irrelevant, and give the pro market a reason to look at them. I think it's impressively foward-thinking.
It may be. But is that the full story ?
There were rumours circulating about Leica and Sony having fallen out and the Pentax 'smoking' the Leica S CMOS offering. Rubbished prematurely by some on this site. It struck a chord. The alliance of C1 and Sony ( and ALPA) seems far reaching. This is just the beginning - something more akin to what used to be referred to, euphemistically by some in Chicago, as 'taking to the mattresses'.
I suspect that Leica have acted more out of 'no alternative' rather than a technological improvement. The M-E is outselling the M240 by a large margin. Looks to me as though the same will follow here. I don't need high ISO in the MF, I might have liked to have it, but not at the expense of IQ. So the S-E will continue as a premium CCD offering - double the price of a Pentax 645 2-lens outfit and 1/2 the cost of a PhaseOne/H CMOS offering - albeit with 50 % less resolution.
I'm still tempted to buy-in to the S-E, primarily 'cos I'm a victim of the all-too-common Leica lens fetish. Nothing to-do with the red dot. But to do so I need to be convinced today, about the future viability of the format - and that's now far from being an open & shut case.
-
Let me begin by stating that I currently enjoy using the S2 and that I specialize in landscape, urban decay, abstract fine art
photography. That stipulated:
(1) Please correct me if I am wrong, but it appears that the "new S-E" is merely the current "S" without any changes.
(2) I am disappointed in the "new" S . I was anticipating and wanting higher resolution (yes, I often make 40x60 inch prints),
an LCD with more resolution, and if live view is to be useful, articulated. I would like to have seen a sensor cleaning function
like almost all 35mm cameras have.
(3) I still feel that video should be done properly with a video camera and its presence on a still camera merely over complicates
the menus, controls, etc. (Certainly, one of the aesthetic appeals of Leica S is the simplicity of the controls, buttons and menus.)
Apart from the lenses (and I admit, I bought into the S system solely because of the lenses) I do not see where the "new S"
excels and distinguishes itself, beyond the Nikon 810, and especially the new Pentax, both priced a small
fraction of the cost of the new S.
-
RBV, what did you need the BB code for? To show this photo?
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3710/12453266485_039738705f_k.jpg)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/98564513@N02/12453266485/
-
yes.. :)
That was taken with a S45mm CS..
I was going to post it to one of the posters who asked about the quality and look of the glass.
I printed it pretty large on an Epson using image print rip,the print looked very good...
Rob
-
Man does Leica draw out the emotion.
Lover's, haters, comparers, complainers, fan boys and dagger throwers. Everyone is sure that their view is correct,whether they actually use a leica or not.
I love my leicas, wish they made movie cameras, wish I could justify using everything Leica from PL's to another another 2 S bodies.
Only four cameras companies in my career produce any emotional attachment to me and that's Leica, contax, olympus and RED.
I think the commonality of those four brands are build design/quality and uniqueness.
Other brands I mostly own, but they're tools, efficient, but tools non the less.
For me if I feel good about about all the elements of image making I shoot better, but don't need to trash one brand to prove my choice was correct.
I'm not that insecure.
Lately I read a lot of blowback from people that c__p on the idea that there is no difference in the look of ccd compared to cmos.
For my work I disagree, for my work I see a difference, a lot of leica buyers must feel the same, because the sales reflect it, though I don't need the validation of others.
I don't take photographs, I construct them and for me photography is not a science project.
Yesterday we shot 16 setups, finished about 10pm lat night. 15 sessions were with the S2 and a RED 1, 1 quick pick up session with a Canon.
I love what we shot and never thought about using a different camera, though I had four cases 5 brands to select from.
But for any other photographer I don't presume to assume my way is right.
It's too personal and presumptuous, to make that decision for someone else.
Leica isn't after the dslr market from CandN and their offerings and price points has made that clear.
The fact there are now 3 prices of S cameras, 25k, 16k or a used/demo S/S2 from 10 to 8k offers a wide range for the same lens mount.
I find that a positive.
You don't own a Leica for logical reasons, but then again photography is not the most logical of endeavors.
IMO
BC
-
Lately I read a lot of blowback from people that c__p on the idea that there is no difference in the look of ccd compared to cmos.
For my work I disagree, for my work I see a difference, a lot of leica buyers must feel the same, because the sales reflect it, though I don't need the validation of others.
What is blowback?
-
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=blowback (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=blowback)
-
that just blocks pm’s not forum posts :(
After I did it certain posts were blanked out, with a note saying I'd blocked the user.
-
I think Leica is the big overall winner of this Photokina no question. They keep updating their product line from the point and shoots to their M body and lens line and their flagship SLR models. Impressive.
Phase One and Arca Swiss also stand out. C1 pro 8 is awsome. Im loving it. The IQ150 is also a great DB alternative. The more choices the better and spreads out the price range of new backs a bit. (As usual wish it were lower in price ;) ). But to those who have not used an IQ chasis back check them out. They are all a joy to use. Makes previous backs feel like dinosaurs.
Yes, like most here, I was expecting a new phase one camera body although since I use my back on a Hasselblad H body it doesnt really concern me that much.
-
I am anxious to see what their plans with Sinar are... My bet would go for a version of that new Cmos sensor for a new sinarback of 48mp at 36x48mm size... The LV capability of modern Cmos could make things much simpler (and far less costly) when used with view cameras.
-
It is interesting that they are lowering some prices. It's almost like they would like people to actually use these cameras more :)
The Panasonic cooperation with Leica labelling seems to work well too, in their own stores. Panasonic is now making some really good cameras.
Edmund
I think Leica is the big overall winner of this Photokina no question. They keep updating their product line from the point and shoots to their M body and lens line and their flagship SLR models. Impressive.
Phase One and Arca Swiss also stand out. C1 pro 8 is awsome. Im loving it. The IQ150 is also a great DB alternative. The more choices the better and spreads out the price range of new backs a bit. (As usual wish it were lower in price ;) ). But to those who have not used an IQ chasis back check them out. They are all a joy to use. Makes previous backs feel like dinosaurs.
Yes, like most here, I was expecting a new phase one camera body although since I use my back on a Hasselblad H body it doesnt really concern me that much.
-
The Panasonic cooperation with Leica labelling seems to work well too, in their own stores. Panasonic is now making some really good cameras.
That D-LUX Typ 109 (Panasonic LX100) actually looks really sexy IMO…
The Leica X Typ 113 as well… I wish it had a viewfinder though...
-
The fact there are now 3 prices of S cameras, 25k, 16k or a used/demo S/S2 from 10 to 8k offers a wide range for the same lens mount.
True. And a used Leica S2 is good value, especially if you also have some H or C glass.
A lot of people are disappointed because the new S does not offer more MP. I personally am not. I would like to keep the versatility and ability to shoot handheld as is.
I would like to see the S user base grow though and I don't see that happening with the new S. A $3.5K price increase and new features most current users don't get excited about.
Hopefully I am wrong though and Leica finds a market for the new S like they did with the Monochrom. Who would have thought that was a good idea?
-
Sales of he new S will largely depend on file quality,will it be as good or better than CCD at pixel level?
Now that we have 2 S bodies in the product line,could Leica add a high res body to satisfy those who want/need more pixels?
-
The nice thing about Leica are the lenses - I just wish they would do what Zeiss does and make them available in other mounts, including for MF gear - I'm sure the Phase shooters here would love a Leica lens, and when you pay $30K for the back alone a Leica lens makes sense.
I would bet Leica will make a mirror lock up and pl mount adapter for the cmos S.
Actually if you want to stay pure leica you could buy the leica PL set, though 6 costs $102,000.
At 20 grand a lens the S starts to look very inexpensive, but you'd be amazed the number of dp's that spec leica lenses for large production.
IMO
BC
-
Actually if you want to stay pure leica you could buy the leica PL set, though 6 costs $102,000.
Cheapskate - that's for the 'crons. If you're anybody you buy the 'lux versions .. double the price.
-
Cheapskate - that's for the 'crons. If you're anybody you buy the 'lux versions .. double the price.
Let me see them. :)
-
David Farkas published his in-depth write-up on the new S:
http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2014/09/photokina-2014-day-2-everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-leica-s-typ-007/ (http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2014/09/photokina-2014-day-2-everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-leica-s-typ-007/)
I found it very interesting and thought I'd share the link, no affiliation.
-
David Farkas published his in-depth write-up on the new S:
http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2014/09/photokina-2014-day-2-everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-leica-s-typ-007/ (http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2014/09/photokina-2014-day-2-everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-leica-s-typ-007/)
I found it very interesting and thought I'd share the link, no affiliation.
Very interesting indeed!
-
Excellent! I agree. Very very interesting write-up.
It clearly highlights the main features of the S Typ 007: video, speed and low light performance.
And those might not be the priorities of a lot of current S2/S shooters.
-
I think one of the most interesting points, is the attention given to LV quality. It seems that the 007 will have the best LV in the market... I can't stop thinking that soon there should be a version of the sensor at 36x48mm size for 48mp of resolution that will be used for a new Sinarback... With such LV quality it will be a pity if they don't make the back.
-
All-in-all, the S (Typ 007) seems to really deliver. Some might be disappointed by Leica’s decision not to bump the resolution slightly to 50MP, but to reiterate Stephan’s point, Leica is focused on delivering practical, real-world quality and usability.
I don't know what to make of this.
Such a baffling statement, don't you think?
I love Theodoros's enthusiasm! :D He and Dmitry Medvedev will be the first ones to buy the Typ 007. I can't wait!
-
I don't know what to make of this.
Such a baffling statement, don't you think?
I love Theodoros's enthusiasm! :D He and Dmitry Medvedev will be the first ones to buy the Typ 007. I can't wait!
What's buffaloing about the statement? That more pixels are irrelevant for image quality? ...is that it?
-
What is baffling is that, what, Leaf Credo isn't offering real-world quality and usability?
One thing, for example.
Luminous Landscape should really interview these three people, Stephan Schulz, Toni Felsner, and Peter Karbe, to see their way of thinking.
-
David Farkas's report has stolen all my thunder as I was going to do a detailed write up myself. His is very comprehensive but I do have two points to add which he has not put in (unless I missed it).
1. The long exposure time remains fixed at 120 seconds and only at base ISO. Increase the ISO and the limit goes down in proportion. I had discussed this with Stephan Shultz when the S2 came out because, having shot with the S2 for two years, it was a feature that irritated me no end. It's the same on the M240 BTW, but 60 secs is the limit. Interestingly, when I raised the subject again with Stephan on Monday and I explained that all the Sonys, Canons and Nikons etc can do open shutter for as long as you like (more or less anyway) he said 'then we should do this too'. This bodes well for a firmware mod down the track and maybe for the M too!
2. The DoF / Hyper Focal display numbers are based on a CoC of 3 microns. This is the same as for film and is what the M lens scales are based on too. it really should be 1 micron now high res sensors are capable of printing up to 20" x 30" with ease. I suggested this to Stephan and he thought this could be an option in the menu maybe, in the future.
Lastly, I cannot stress just how fast this camera is, 3.5fps feels amazing and the AF is transformed. It's a game changer.
And last-lastly, for those concerned about the S keeping the same sensor size, 50MP is only about 10% bigger than 37MP because the other backs are a 4:3 ratio not 2:3 - so you need to crop them to get the same aspect. 50MP becomes about 45MP. 7500px wide vs 8200px wide. 10% more. Not much. Makes the S look like a bargain when you consider you get a free (good) camera with every sensor!
-
What is baffling is that, what, Leaf Credo isn't offering real-world quality and usability?
One thing, for example.
Luminous Landscape should really interview these three people, Stephan Schulz, Toni Felsner, and Peter Karbe, to see their way of thinking.
Don't know what Credo is offering, I haven't tried it... But what I know is this: 1. It is more expensive than an S (007). 2. It doesn't replace a DSLR for what a SLR is doing. 3. It needs a camera in front of it to be able to compete with an S(007) at even higher cost. 4. It doesn't cope well with view cameras (the sensor) while a 6μm pixel size with no micro lenses on would...
If you add to the (1) above that people investing on an S will no longer need a DSLR system, you can easily understand why many more than you think will be customers of Leica... Now if one thinks that the S(007) will have lesser IQ because it uses less pixels for the same image area size... that's his problem not mine... IMO 6 microns is already a very small pixel, ....especially for a Cmos pixel where read noise at base ISO is much higher than a CCD, so I 'd rather have that 25% more pixel size than miss it. 8)
Besides... I already have 7 su-pe-rb lenses to go with an S....
-
Sales of he new S will largely depend on file quality,will it be as good or better than CCD at pixel level?
I don't know what pixel level means but I guess we all see things differently. I do hope the cmos looks as pretty as the ccd camera.
This is a small part of a project, mostly shot at 640 iso, mostly pushed about 1/2 stop in lightroom. (no retouch or cleaning up yet, just out of the processor)
I killed some color noise but left the luminance noise in as it's pretty, though with modern processors you can kill the noise in any image, I just think smooth and perfect sometimes is kind of boring.
Anyway. Leica S2, Contax 80mm F2 and 55 mm 3.5
(http://www.russellrutherfordfilms.com/RandR_S2_RussellRutherford.jpg)
IMO
BC
-
Beautiful images, BC! Tungsten light?
2. The DoF / Hyper Focal display numbers are based on a CoC of 3 microns. This is the same as for film and is what the M lens scales are based on too. it really should be 1 micron now high res sensors are capable of printing up to 20" x 30" with ease. I suggested this to Stephan and he thought this could be an option in the menu maybe, in the future
Thanks! That's very useful info, and I think you're right about the 1 micron CoC. An option in the menu somewhere would be handy, though I'd just leave it on the 1 micron, to be safe.
-
Tungsten light?
Yes . . . Tungsten it is PeterV and you win the 2015 Dodge Dart.
All you have to do is answer the brand of lights, wattage and suggested retail price.
IMO
BC
-
Arri 650's 1k's and some inkys but not the plastic 800's without the fresnel, bit of tough spun or scrim added
No idea of the price but they are £1-2.5k
My prize is cooter portrait session with make-over and various gauche OTT executive bling and fake guns.
-
Arri 650's 1k's and some inkys but not the plastic 800's without the fresnel, bit of tough spun or scrim added
No idea of the price but they are £1-2.5k
My prize is cooter portrait session with make-over and various gauche OTT executive bling and fake guns.
So close to the Dodge Dart.
Your right on everything about the Spun and of course the rules stated (in very fine white print on a white page) the prices had to be in Japanese Yen.
Thanks for entering.
IMO
BC
-
That's o.k. Just knowing I was right about the lighting before the official announcement was enough for me 8)
(Obviously there's so much more to it than that)
-
David Farkas published his in-depth write-up on the new S:
http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2014/09/photokina-2014-day-2-everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-leica-s-typ-007/ (http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2014/09/photokina-2014-day-2-everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-leica-s-typ-007/)
Did I undertand correctly that the 4K video mode only uses less than 25% of the sensors pixels? Per my quick math it would be an area equal to 26*14mm, meaning that it is only slightly larger than an APS-C sensor size?
Is it just me or, considering the video specs also (50 Mbit/sec), does the a7s look like a much better option for 4K at 10% of the price and over a 36*19mm area which is more than twice larger while also doing a 1:1 sensor mapping?
Sorry guys, I don't understand the hype on video.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
(1) The LCD is not articulated. My experience with Nikon and even image review on the S2, is that without
articulation, the LCD is not very useful in daylight "in the field." So, the "live view" may not be practical.
Also, the resolution of the LCD is less than desirable. I would have expected 1+ MP as a minimum. Also, note
it is not sapphire glass. The camera is 25K, so I do not believe these are too much to ask for.
(2) 50MP may be only "10 % more" IF you crop to 3:2 ratio. BUT, many compositions work as well or better
square or 4:3, in which case, you would be using all or nearly all the 50MP, so I would respectfully disagree that
50MP is not significantly better than 37 or 39. I make very large prints, every MP helps.
(3) From a creative perspective, it would be nice to have the ability to do multiple exposures as well as very
long exposures... as far as I can discern, neither is possible.
-
You got to see the footage before anyone knows about leica video, though aps c which is close to super 35mm in cinema digital terms is about the perfect format.
If you move a 35mm FF A7s at anything past "I'm so stoned I can't feel my hands speed", you'll get jellowcam that will give you vertigo.
Also the A7s is a 8 bit video file vs. 10 bit of the Leica, 4:2:0 vs. 4:2:2 which is twice the colors, easier to grade.
Now the issue will be finding a wide angle for the Leica, but I'll bet they come out with at least a PL converter because they're the only company that gives full functionality of a competitors lenses, both Contax and Hasselblad and they make their own PL's.
In regards to the viewfinder, you'll probably use a separate recorder like the Shogun, which the Sony needs for 4k and Leica is showing at their stand in annoucekina.
Then again all of this is a mute point cause Leica isn't competing with Sony, or probably any Japanese manufacturer.
That's not the crowd their aiming for.
But if the video is good, really good, then that's killer and adds to the value of the camera, but if you don't shoot video then it doesn't matter does it?
IMO
BC
-
Hi,
I would suggest you are mistaken on this. In all probability, M-lenses scales are based on 1/30 mm, that is 30 microns, 10 micron scales would be a good thing, but 1 microns is totally useless, as the sensors are probably around 6 microns.
You simply messed up with a factor of 10. Can happen to us all.
Best regards
Erik
David Farkas's report has stolen all my thunder as I was going to do a detailed write up myself. His is very comprehensive but I do have two points to add which he has not put in (unless I missed it).
2. The DoF / Hyper Focal display numbers are based on a CoC of 3 microns. This is the same as for film and is what the M lens scales are based on too. it really should be 1 micron now high res sensors are capable of printing up to 20" x 30" with ease. I suggested this to Stephan and he thought this could be an option in the menu maybe, in the future.
-
craigrudlin : long exposures no, not past 120 secs but multiple exposures? It does auto bracketing well but do you mean actual multiple shots in one image? If so then no.
bcooter : are you sure it's 10 bit video output? It was described to me as 8 bit 4.2.2.
-
Indeed - I meant 30 microns. The lens scales are based on this but a CoC of 10 microns would give a better representation of DoF at bigger print sizes.
-
Also the A7s is a 8 bit video file vs. 10 bit of the Leica, 4:2:0 vs. 4:2:2 which is twice the colors, easier to grade.
Not quite.
SONY A7s
The camera records at up to 1080/60p internally with 4:2:0 chroma sub-sampling.
When recording to an external 4K recorder output is 8-bit 4:2:2 video over HDMI at up to 30p, without the need for line skipping or pixel binning.
PANA GH4
When recording to the internal card the GH4 shoots in 8 bit mode with 4:2:0 colour sampling.
When recording to an external 4K capable recorder, records 10 bit 4:2:2 video from the camera's HDMI output.
-
Thought the specs were 10 bit and if it's not I stand corrected, but I don't know how much it matters with this camera, because I haven't seen any video from it yet.
I do know I have gh3's, tested gh4's, the whole line of A7 series and four times passed.
I like the gh3's, though now for small hand held motion imagery went with the Canon 70d due to the autofocus, the look of the file and a true touch screen focus lcd.
I stick with the quote that FF 35mm still frame with a global shutter is jello cam, (A7s of 5d2/3, D800).
For motion imagery super 35mm which is close to APS c is the perfect motion format, unless something changes drastically. (and btw even a apsc will slide if jerked around too fast, just not as bad as a ff still format.
But once again I don't think Leica is concerned with what Sony, or Nikon or Canon do. Actually Sony has a long way to go in the still area to catch Canon and Nikon and that's where their market is.
In fact if your really serious about motion, there are a lot of dedicated motion cameras that will out perform any dslr that shoots digital motion, the new 4k Sony for one, or for me I use REDs, but that's another conversation.
You know since the start of the D800, every time something new comes out in a more expensive camera, from a 1dx to medium format, there is a group that says for a fraction of a cost you can buy a d800 and it will ___fill in the blanks____.
That's fine because the d800 is a good camera and I've got no knock on it other than it's not for me, though for other's I hope it works well for them, because I might like some cameras better than others but am truly brand agnostic.
Still, Leica is going for a different market and seems to have found it.
I think the number of views of this thread show the interest in what Leica is doing.
IMO
BC
-
i have no interest in Leica, it’s something i am unlikely to ever own but i can see the S (all versions) would be a really nice tool to shoot with, few foibles, nice files and great lenses. with careful purchasing it’s a system you can probably shoot for years with (those lens mounts help too) it’s good to see they are not chasing the super high mpixel dollar.
if i was at a dealer i would like to pick one up, they look like they will sit in the hands nicely unlike some MFD, if i was a people shooter i would probably be be all over it
-
I think Leica is the big overall winner of this Photokina no question. They keep updating their product line from the point and shoots to their M body and lens line and their flagship SLR models. Impressive.
A small overview by the Red Dot Forum. Quite impressive indeed. I saw quite a few things I would like…:
http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2014/09/photokina-2014-video-interview-with-stefan-daniel-leica-director-of-product-management/
-
Hi,
What I would say would be nice if DoF scale was based on both CoC and diffraction. Regarding CoC, I would say using CoC on twice pixel pitch may be reasonable, that would be 12 micron for the S(Typ 007).
Stopping down to f/16, the Airy disc is something like 16 micron, at f/22 it is 22 and so on.
Best regards
Erik
-
I am sorry, as long as Leica is insisting on the silly 3:2 ratio, they would get no business from me.
I can't remember the last time I shot something on my Nikon that wasn't cropped to something other than 3:2. Especially portraits, which often gets cropped down to 4:3.
It's curious how the 44x33 sensor size gets a lot of flak from all quarters for not being "Quite medium format", but the even smaller Leica sensor is considered to be one. BC's incredible work notwithstanding, I have a feeling that if he was handed a "Full size" 60MP back (Whatever brand), he'd have made the same pictures with higher technical perfection. With less cropping to boot.
I don't need my MF kit to replace a 35mm kit. I don't need that horse to do more than one trick.
And if we're talking price, I am pretty sure my current MF and 35mm kits together costs less than a full fledged Leica S kit and is actually a bit more versatile.
-
BC's incredible work notwithstanding, I have a feeling that if he was handed a "Full size" 60MP back (Whatever brand), he'd have made the same pictures with higher technical perfection. With less cropping to boot.
What you don't see in his photos is how the camera's handling enables the pictures. I'd expect that with a different camera the pictures would be different. I make no claims w.r.t. which would be 'better' but I'd bet they'd be different.
-
I don't disagree, how a camera handles is definitely a personal and subjective thing.
Personally speaking, I prefer the traditional MF form factor as the back acts as a nice counterweight to any substantial lenses attached to the body. The ol' 35mm form factor has always been uncomfortable to me; especially without a vertical grip.
-
I am sorry, as long as Leica is insisting on the silly 3:2 ratio, they would get no business from me.
I can't remember the last time I shot something on my Nikon that wasn't cropped to something other than 3:2. Especially portraits, which often gets cropped down to 4:3.
It's curious how the 44x33 sensor size gets a lot of flak from all quarters for not being "Quite medium format", but the even smaller Leica sensor is considered to be one. BC's incredible work notwithstanding, I have a feeling that if he was handed a "Full size" 60MP back (Whatever brand), he'd have made the same pictures with higher technical perfection. With less cropping to boot.
I don't need my MF kit to replace a 35mm kit. I don't need that horse to do more than one trick.
And if we're talking price, I am pretty sure my current MF and 35mm kits together costs less than a full fledged Leica S kit and is actually a bit more versatile.
Synn: While I absolutely love my IQ160 and really prefer the 4:3 sensor ratio and specially the larger size sensor (I had the 645D and the difference in sensor size is VERY noticeable to me) I checked out the Leica S a while back and found it superb in terms of body feel, handling and focusing. It makes the Hasselblad H and Phase DF cameras seem like ancient clunkers.
-
I checked out the Leica S a while back and found it superb in terms of body feel, handling and focusing. It makes the Hasselblad H and Phase DF cameras seem like ancient clunkers.
+1.
I have a Hasselblad H4X body and recently acquired a Leica S2.
As much as I love the H4X the ergonomics of the Leica, the build quality and the viewfinder put it in a different league.
I am not even going to compare it to a DF+ body...
-
Big Pro: I did hold a Leica S in my hands and it was just the best feeling to shoot I ever experience with a camera.
-It's the way a camera should be build.
-Great viewfinder.
The cons:
-Software:
Owning a H4d-40 I doubt, they get as nice looking files out of the box like Phocus Software does.
-Focus:
Then I feel the truefocus is a must for MF(or having 100% accurate focus points distributed all over the sensor).
As far as I know Leica only has the center focus point as well and you will loose the focal plane while recomposing with shallow depth of field.
P1 and Pentax(even 100 points would not help if they are all in the center!) fail on that as well.
-Sensor size/format:
And then it is 3x4.
-Price:
And then the price of the camera, heck the price of the lens, even more so if you want the finally announced leaf shutters.
-
Synn: While I absolutely love my IQ160 and really prefer the 4:3 sensor ratio and specially the larger size sensor (I had the 645D and the difference in sensor size is VERY noticeable to me) I checked out the Leica S a while back and found it superb in terms of body feel, handling and focusing. It makes the Hasselblad H and Phase DF cameras seem like ancient clunkers.
It much resembles the Contax 645 if ergonomically judged, while it feels much as a D700 in size and handling... doesn't it? To many this is the perfect combination... others may look for whatever is an excuse (with respect to their choices) to them....
-
7 years ago I would have somewhat agreed that a 4:3 format and a box with camera back was a nice way to work.
Today we shoot 70% horizontal 30% vertical and with horizontal a 2:3 format is more ideal.
I will say that Leica just met "my" list of what I wanted from a still camera. I wanted a larger than 35mm format, a camera that was less modular, slightly faster to use than most medium format and when Leica offered true full functionality of multiple lens mounts it was an easy choice.
Also I wanted something that I didn't see 35 times a minute in Times Square.
The build quality, the way a leica feels in the hand is a very enjoyable plus. Leica sweats the details in their own way, some with common sense, some leica sense.
I'm not going to compare dirt vs. spit because that conversation goes nowhere and as illustrated by Chris B, just a silly bunch of fanboy talk.
I will admit though I am so bored with the talk that medium format, especially Leica is a luxury toy for the 1%. Just the mention of one of the higher end brands brings out a chorus of bias, usually based on conjecture, not use.
This was shot with the S2, 1k quartz light, screened down, shot through a frosted window, hand held. I guess dslr territory.
(http://russellrutherford.com/web_s2_rr.jpg)
And it's from a small crop
(http://www.russellrutherford.com/s2_crop.jpg)
Not saying it can't be done with another camera (once again dirt and spit) but it can be done with the first generation S2.
I won't hide that I am biased to leica because to me they epitomize photography, old an new, but at least I can appreciate it next to other brands and formats I use.
If you've ever have to the opportunity to walk into a Leica store or better yet one of the Leica galleries, I don't know how you can't be inspired by the experience.
No other maker I know goes so far to elevate the respect of the still photograph regardless of your camera of choice.
IMO
BC
-
7 years ago I would have somewhat agreed that a 4:3 format and a box with camera back was a nice way to work.
Today we shoot 70% horizontal 30% vertical and with horizontal a 2:3 format is more ideal.
I will say that Leica just met "my" list of what I wanted from a still camera. I wanted a larger than 35mm format, a camera that was less modular, slightly faster to use than most medium format and when Leica offered true full functionality of multiple lens mounts it was an easy choice.
Also I wanted something that I didn't see 35 times a minute in Times Square.
The build quality, the way a leica feels in the hand is a very enjoyable plus. Leica sweats the details in their own way, some with common sense, some leica sense.
I'm not going to compare dirt vs. spit because that conversation goes nowhere and as illustrated by Chris B, just a silly bunch of fanboy talk.
I will admit though I am so bored with the talk that medium format, especially Leica is a luxury toy for the 1%. Just the mention of one of the higher end brands brings out a chorus of bias, usually based on conjecture, not use.
This was shot with the S2, 1k quartz light, screened down, shot through a frosted window, hand held. I guess dslr territory.
(http://russellrutherford.com/web_s2_rr.jpg)
And it's from a small crop
(http://www.russellrutherford.com/s2_crop.jpg)
Not saying it can't be done with another camera (once again dirt and spit) but it can be done with the first generation S2.
I won't hide that I am biased to leica because to me they epitomize photography, old an new, but at least I can appreciate it next to other brands and formats I use.
If you've ever have to the opportunity to walk into a Leica store or better yet one of the Leica galleries, I don't know how you can't be inspired by the experience.
No other maker I know goes so far to elevate the respect of the still photograph regardless of your camera of choice.
IMO
BC
)
I don't mind cropping down to 34mp (out of a 37.5mp 3:2 original ) neither to crop down to 45mp (out of a 50mp 4:3 original), this all is trivial nonsense for me... In fact I wouldn't mind printing any file of 20mp at 3 yards for its minor side whatever its analogy or size is, if I was sure of the "pixel definition" (my term) I have out of the file... The rest is "mp trolling" IMO.
-
J,
Those shots of yours just show me carefully done styling and hair, nicely placed model pose prep, very nice lighting, choice of color look, crop and retouch. But none of the above can be bought in the Leica shop; if it could be I'd be there in a minute :)
As for the actual file quality, after all that rework, I see little of the original color or texture here, and in fact my color consultant intuition tells me - you know, that part which I have between *my* ears and which other people actually think *I* am good at, that a Nikon D800 is technically equivalent to what you're showing. I think the S, like the low-end Hassy (H50C) and its cousin the Phase IQ250 s mainly now a workflow and esthetic choice, like buying a BMW or a Mercedes limo instead of a Lexus. Of course the S2 is economically fully justified in your case by your already owning the lenses.
I'd like to own a Leica S, I will eventually get one or a Hassy, but I'm going to get it as a matter of choice, you know, like buying an everyday-use all year leather jacket - you get it for feel, style and fun as much as function. The D810, the Phamiya or even the Pentax are about as much fun to me as a gray synthetic anorak, but if you live in Alaska there is probably a good argument to be made for buying something that is "only" warm.
Last, not least, of all the current CCD cameras I've seen samples from, the Leica has the body I like most, but it has "the look" the least, the H4D40 I really like, the H50 should be like the 40 but I think it isn't and don't, and the H60 I like the most. I don't know what that means, probably it just means I'm a snob. When I had a P45+ it shot nowhere as clean as the P30 or H3D31, but it had "the look".
Anyway - whatever you or anyone else here chooses to use ... - I've noticed a lot of us take interesting pictures.
Edmund
7 years ago I would have somewhat agreed that a 4:3 format and a box with camera back was a nice way to work.
Today we shoot 70% horizontal 30% vertical and with horizontal a 2:3 format is more ideal.
I will say that Leica just met "my" list of what I wanted from a still camera. I wanted a larger than 35mm format, a camera that was less modular, slightly faster to use than most medium format and when Leica offered true full functionality of multiple lens mounts it was an easy choice.
Also I wanted something that I didn't see 35 times a minute in Times Square.
The build quality, the way a leica feels in the hand is a very enjoyable plus. Leica sweats the details in their own way, some with common sense, some leica sense.
I'm not going to compare dirt vs. spit because that conversation goes nowhere and as illustrated by Chris B, just a silly bunch of fanboy talk.
I will admit though I am so bored with the talk that medium format, especially Leica is a luxury toy for the 1%. Just the mention of one of the higher end brands brings out a chorus of bias, usually based on conjecture, not use.
This was shot with the S2, 1k quartz light, screened down, shot through a frosted window, hand held. I guess dslr territory.
(http://russellrutherford.com/web_s2_rr.jpg)
And it's from a small crop
(http://www.russellrutherford.com/s2_crop.jpg)
Not saying it can't be done with another camera (once again dirt and spit) but it can be done with the first generation S2.
I won't hide that I am biased to leica because to me they epitomize photography, old an new, but at least I can appreciate it next to other brands and formats I use.
If you've ever have to the opportunity to walk into a Leica store or better yet one of the Leica galleries, I don't know how you can't be inspired by the experience.
No other maker I know goes so far to elevate the respect of the still photograph regardless of your camera of choice.
IMO
BC
-
BC: I totally get it that the S2 is a great fit for your work. I also understand that since you work mostly with continuous lights, using the contax lenses at a lower sync speed is a non issue for you as well.
The one thing I will agree to disagree though, is the experience in a Leica boutique. Call it the cynical marketing professional's PoV if you may, but all I see there is a hard sell of the "Experience" of owning a Leica. Hell, I see more sincere passion for photography in a Fujifilm boutique here.
Does that make them bad products, just because the marketing is a bit over the top? Absolutely not. My point was that underneath all that marketing, they still offer a solution that does not fit my needs. :)
-
The one thing I will agree to disagree though, is the experience in a Leica boutique. Call it the cynical marketing professional's PoV if you may, but all I see there is a hard sell of the "Experience" of owning a Leica. Hell, I see more sincere passion for photography in a Fujifilm boutique here.
Does that make them bad products, just because the marketing is a bit over the top? Absolutely not. My point was that underneath all that marketing, they still offer a solution that does not fit my needs. :)
Their marketing is over the top, but it doesn't ring false, just overblown.
-
I should have known that showing a crop would open up a dirt vs. spit debate, though I never meant that to happen.
What I tried to show was that, at least for ME, a different form factor medium format camera makes it easier to shoot spontaneity. Also to ME mpx aren't that important.
Some will disagree, that's their right, I'm just not one of them.
Now in regards to color, I find that interesting. I haven't used every camera in the world, but I do know that digital is very subject, lighting, scene specific.
It's interesting when I bought my Phase backs I thought the color was awful and now feel it's nice. Either Phase upped their game on processing, or I got better at roll your own.
The Leica, dunno, I guess I know how to roll my own with lightroom, so what ever is considered out of camera doesn't matter to me as along as the camera sees a lot of colors.
It's easier to disregard a color than make one and lightroom is very malleable. With a little experience making presets for "your' personal film is easy.
The one thing I love about the dng file is I don't have to upgrade to a newer version of LR, PS, C1 and a new operating system just to process the files.
The rest . . . it's just personal preference.
The Leica store in London was very nice to us, even though I was clear I would buy in the U.S. Over the top or not, it's nice to walk into a camera store that only sells cameras. No big screen TV's, not phones, no plastic gizmos, just beautiful cameras for making photographs.
I personally enjoy that.
The Leica gallery on broadway is very different than a camera boutique and I've been there two dozen times, nearly alway lifts my spirits and suggest anyone visiting NY go. It's a very old school, very low key gallery with interesting to historic work.
But once again, I'm not into spit and dirt, costs vs. perceived value, brand loyalty-loathe conversations because they go nowhere.
I think people should use what they like and disregard the noise.
It's funny when our bought our first REDs I was told and read that they were unreliable, broke, overheated, etc. etc. and in 3 1/2 years have spun those cameras around the work in every condition and never had an issue except for the evf and those cameras have been very profitable for our studio and our work.
So I guess personal use is the only real way to know what works.
IMO
BC
-
Hi,
I am no fan of Leica, but I would say that the interviews I see create a lot of sympathy. Generally, it is great to see the men behind the cameras.
Same with the open and honest presentations by Zeiss and the nice articles by Dr. Nasse on different aspects of lenses and lens designs.
Now, Leica has been in economic troubles for a long, long time. But, now they are moving forwards, designing a great system with a new format and developing their own sensors. I am impressed and I really wish them well.
Will I ever buy their products? No, I cannot afford them. Would I buy if I could afford them? I would check against my perceived needs, quite possibly I would. Or, I would buy a Panasonic GH4, or stay with Sony or something else.
Considerations may be:
Image quality may be the premium aspect
Availability of lenses
Weight and packing size (that would speak for Panasonic)
Best regards
Erik
I should have known that showing a crop would open up a dirt vs. spit debate, though I never meant that to happen.
What I tried to show was that, at least for ME, a different form factor medium format camera makes it easier to shoot spontaneity. Also to ME mpx aren't that important.
Some will disagree, that's their right, I'm just not one of them.
Now in regards to color, I find that interesting. I haven't used every camera in the world, but I do know that digital is very subject, lighting, scene specific.
It's interesting when I bought my Phase backs I thought the color was awful and now feel it's nice. Either Phase upped their game on processing, or I got better at roll your own.
The Leica, dunno, I guess I know how to roll my own with lightroom, so what ever is considered out of camera doesn't matter to me as along as the camera sees a lot of colors.
It's easier to disregard a color than make one and lightroom is very malleable. With a little experience making presets for "your' personal film is easy.
The one thing I love about the dng file is I don't have to upgrade to a newer version of LR, PS, C1 and a new operating system just to process the files.
The rest . . . it's just personal preference.
The Leica store in London was very nice to us, even though I was clear I would buy in the U.S. Over the top or not, it's nice to walk into a camera store that only sells cameras. No big screen TV's, not phones, no plastic gizmos, just beautiful cameras for making photographs.
I personally enjoy that.
The Leica gallery on broadway is very different than a camera boutique and I've been there two dozen times, nearly alway lifts my spirits and suggest anyone visiting NY go. It's a very old school, very low key gallery with interesting to historic work.
But once again, I'm not into spit and dirt, costs vs. perceived value, brand loyalty-loathe conversations because they go nowhere.
I think people should use what they like and disregard the noise.
It's funny when our bought our first REDs I was told and read that they were unreliable, broke, overheated, etc. etc. and in 3 1/2 years have spun those cameras around the work in every condition and never had an issue except for the evf and those cameras have been very profitable for our studio and our work.
So I guess personal use is the only real way to know what works.
IMO
BC
-
Now, Leica has been in economic troubles for a long, long time. But, now they are moving forwards, designing a great system with a new format and developing their own sensors. I am impressed and I really wish them well.
Some perspective on this type of comment.
- Leica was rescued from insolvency in 2004/5 by Andreas Kaufman who paid approximately $80 mill for the privilege.
- 44% of the company was later sold to Blackstone in 2011 for $179 mill, that valued the company at about $400 mill
- In 2011 Leica had gross sales in excess of $330 mill v (PhaseOne $46 mill)
- Last year (2013) turnover amounted to over $450 mill v (PhaseOne $65 mill)
- In 2014 60% of PhaseOne was sold for $100 mill - valuing the whole company at about $180 mill – how much is Leica AG worth today ?
*edit: Figures are approximate ..
-
"Will I ever buy their products? No, I cannot afford them. Would I buy if I could afford them? I would check against my perceived needs, quite possibly I would. Or, I would buy a Panasonic GH4, or stay with Sony or something else."
There's something a bit odd about this statement.
-
Hi,
What is odd about it? I obviously don't buy products I don't feel I can afford.
On the other hand, let's look at some considerations:
- I need a reasonable set of equipment, including long lenses and ultrawides.
- I print at A2 size normally and I feel that 16 MP is good enough for that size with careful work
- Nikon, Sony, Leica can give me around 36 MP, an obvious advantage for prints larger than A2
- I can use Zeiss Otuses on the Nikon, they may be as good as the Leica
- I can put any lens on the Sony, with adapters, but adapters also have tolerances
- Long lenses dominate the weight of the kit, so small cameras are not a great advantage
- If I can build a reasonable equipment with small packing size it is a good thing
- Can I transport the essential equipment within weight and size limits on international flights?
Some examples:
- I considered switching from Sony to Nikon, but decided to stay with Sony.
- I did consider getting a Pentax 645D, but cost was a bit to high and I was skeptical about the lenses.
- I did buy a Hasselblad 555ELD/P45+ and five lenses, all used. The Hasselblad and the lenses can be had dirt cheap. Not the wisest buy I ever did, but I like it.
- I have some interest in the new Sony A7-s but I won't buy any present model. If they have a 50M (or so) model, with phase detection on sensor and electronic first curtain on shutter I would have a serious look. It fits into my present system and adds some benefits. I would probably buy a standard zoom and a few Loxia lenses.
- I really wouldn't mind to have a technical camera with a digital back, but I don't know if the work flow suits me.
- I had a Hartblei HCam on my buying plan to be used with the P45+ and the Zeiss lenses but now I don't feel like I would put more money into the Hasselblad system.
- I am going to retire in some years. I probably want an equipment that is complete and which I can carry. I will be able to spend less money on equipment and I will have time for travel.
This kind of reasoning always goes on. When I bought the Hasselblad, my original idea was to buy lenses from 50 to 150 mm and add a Hartblei HCam and a Canon 24 TS something like 18 months later. But I was lacking a real wide angle so I got a 40/4, that works well for me. I also bought a flexbody, and now I am not sure that tilts are as useful as I expected, so the Hartblei is not any longer on the buying list.
I can carry the Hasselblad kit and the Sony Alpha 99 with say four lenses in my Gura Gear Kiboko, and it fits carry on size limits on almost any flight but it doesn't fit most weight limits (around 14 kg).
Best regards
Erik
"Will I ever buy their products? No, I cannot afford them. Would I buy if I could afford them? I would check against my perceived needs, quite possibly I would. Or, I would buy a Panasonic GH4, or stay with Sony or something else."
There's something a bit odd about this statement.
-
A place I would recommend to anybody interessted in Leica is their new beautifull headquater in Wetzlar (40 Minutes drive from Frankfurt (Germany)). I have been working there last week to shoot the new building inside and outside. It´s got a gallery, an area where they show all the present and older/historic leicas, you can look into the production and you can even buy yourself a freshly produced Leica!
QUOTE:
"The Leica store in London was very nice to us, even though I was clear I would buy in the U.S. Over the top or not, it's nice to walk into a camera store that only sells cameras. No big screen TV's, not phones, no plastic gizmos, just beautiful cameras for making photographs.
I personally enjoy that.
The Leica gallery on broadway is very different than a camera boutique and I've been there two dozen times, nearly alway lifts my spirits and suggest anyone visiting NY go. It's a very old school, very low key gallery with interesting to historic work."
-
I cross-posted this on a few Leica S related forums hoping to read how other Leica S users feel about the new camera.
Now that Photokina-storm is behind us and we’ve all had a little more time to let everything sink in, here are some of my thoughts and questions (to Leica) on the new S. The more I think about it, the more I like the new camera, but I have some questions/suggestions. The final version is still at least 6 months away, so I guess there’s enough time for the design team to sit down and evaluate some of the feedback from potential customers.
This write up by David Farkas is quite interesting:
http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2014/09/photokina-2014-day-2-everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-leica-s-typ-007/
The pictures on this website (in Dutch) made me think about the video implementation as it was presented at PK’14.
http://leicainnederland.wordpress.com/2014/09/26/leica-introduceert-leica-s-e-en-leica-s-met-4k-video-photokina2014/
Video/motion:
- Why not CinemaDNG instead of Motion JPEG? This should give considerably more headroom in post. Of course there’s a lot of data to be chewed on, but Motion JPEG seems too limited.
- Why not HDMI 1.4(a) out for external 4K recording? HDMI v1.3 cannot carry 4K signals and will be quite out of date in 2015 and beyond. Lots of consumer electronics come with the new HDMI standard already.
- 4K recording from the whole sensor would make the camera much more interesting, even if this means pixel binning/line skipping. The look from the complete 30x45mm sensor would make it quite unique and wide angle lenses would stay wide angle.
- Looking at the picture of the video camera rig I can’t understand why they’d have designed it like this; looking through the optical viewfinder makes no sense since the mirror has to be up for video-shooting. Why not make the flash-shoe take an EVF so that is an option for more ergonomically handling in video-mode?
- As for sound, I don’t think the use of 3.5 mm jack connections is going to be enough for professional sound. Balanced XLR is what will be necessary if sound is recorded directly on the camera.
- I think Leica still has a lot of work to do concerning video in the new S. I suggest they take a long, hard look at the video specs of for example the €1500 Samsung NX1. Again, to really be of interest to the motion/video crowd in 2015-2019 (2-4 years for the next completely new S to arrive) the video specs need to be much better implemented and certainly be more modern than the newly announced S.
I’ll leave it at that for now, with one more minor remark about the hyperfocal distance read-out on the top-display, I think the order should be reversed so that it reads back/focus/front instead of front/focus/back. To me, this seems much more logical from the POV of the camera operator. Maybe Leica can make the order of appearance a menu option.
-
I cross-posted this on a few Leica S related forums hoping to read how other Leica S users feel about the new camera.
Now that Photokina-storm is behind us and we’ve all had a little more time to let everything sink in, here are some of my thoughts and questions (to Leica) on the new S. The more I think about it, the more I like the new camera, but I have some questions/suggestions. The final version is still at least 6 months away, so I guess there’s enough time for the design team to sit down and evaluate some of the feedback from potential customers.
This write up by David Farkas is quite interesting:
http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2014/09/photokina-2014-day-2-everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-leica-s-typ-007/
The pictures on this website (in Dutch) made me think about the video implementation as it was presented at PK’14.
http://leicainnederland.wordpress.com/2014/09/26/leica-introduceert-leica-s-e-en-leica-s-met-4k-video-photokina2014/
Video/motion:
- Why not CinemaDNG instead of Motion JPEG? This should give considerably more headroom in post. Of course there’s a lot of data to be chewed on, but Motion JPEG seems too limited.
- Why not HDMI 1.4(a) out for external 4K recording? HDMI v1.3 cannot carry 4K signals and will be quite out of date in 2015 and beyond. Lots of consumer electronics come with the new HDMI standard already.
- 4K recording from the whole sensor would make the camera much more interesting, even if this means pixel binning/line skipping. The look from the complete 30x45mm sensor would make it quite unique and wide angle lenses would stay wide angle.
- Looking at the picture of the video camera rig I can’t understand why they’d have designed it like this; looking through the optical viewfinder makes no sense since the mirror has to be up for video-shooting. Why not make the flash-shoe take an EVF so that is an option for more ergonomically handling in video-mode?
- As for sound, I don’t think the use of 3.5 mm jack connections is going to be enough for professional sound. Balanced XLR is what will be necessary if sound is recorded directly on the camera.
- I think Leica still has a lot of work to do concerning video in the new S. I suggest they take a long, hard look at the video specs of for example the €1500 Samsung NX1. Again, to really be of interest to the motion/video crowd in 2015-2019 (2-4 years for the next completely new S to arrive) the video specs need to be much better implemented and certainly be more modern than the newly announced S.
I’ll leave it at that for now, with one more minor remark about the hyperfocal distance read-out on the top-display, I think the order should be reversed so that it reads back/focus/front instead of front/focus/back. To me, this seems much more logical from the POV of the camera operator. Maybe Leica can make the order of appearance a menu option.
This is Leica's first attempt for 4k video... My impression is that they don't aim (in this first attempt) to have it as a pro functionality of the camera, but rather to declare that they will be part of the video market in the future... Never the less, the hundreds of Wedding photographers that will be replacing their Cannikons for a Leica S (007) ...will find the video specs very handy and up to their requirements.