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Author Topic: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic  (Read 132517 times)

garyfong

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #80 on: August 24, 2014, 12:25:38 pm »

excellent post
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garyfong

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #81 on: August 24, 2014, 12:36:42 pm »

Here's another way of seeing my explanation.  It's like saying, "you can shoot video in 4k, and it is better - provided you have equipment to express it... if you are going to upload to web, or view your videos in HDTV or smaller, shoot in 1080."  So the mixed crowd of enthusiasts says, "huh?  What's 4k?  What's 1080p?"  So you have to use metaphors to help the most people understand. 

Then a bunch of people go, hey - this is wrong information.  4K is always better.  You do not get more information on 1080p!  This is misinformation!  Why not always shoot in 4K so you can always have the option of both?  Of course you would have to convert each video each time, but it's always better (true).  Most people don't have equipment for 4k, and the people who do, I'm sure they love it and covet the improved viewing experience.  Some might even get mad that other people don't use 4k equipment, or, suggest that it's ok to use.
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garyfong

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #82 on: August 24, 2014, 12:44:35 pm »

We are going to be doing a series of "Adobe vs sRGB" videos.  On Monday, we will be photographing images in AdobeRGB and sRGB and putting them through a pro lab in town, both images staying within their respective color spaces.  After the prints are made, we will be placing these images on a table, and asking passersby which one looks better.  Are there any other questions you suggest that I ask?  Any other criteria you would like (in advance) before we do this video?  I would honestly like to put this topic to a definitive result, but I'm sure there will be some of you who would say that the results are skewed, and I'd like to know what you need in advance.

This will be the general public.  I will ask them which has better, or richer colors.  Is there anything that you would require to make this real-world test not appear "skewed"?

I will also be taking a tally of who prefers which print, A or B.  And then put the tally up.  Once we have the numbers, I will show the steps required to convert from AdobeRGB to sRGB, the extra steps required.

Look forward to your opinions.
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supercurio

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #83 on: August 24, 2014, 12:54:16 pm »

Wrong.  I never said that sRGB had more data.  In fact, in the beginning, I say AdobeRGB is better provided you have the equipment that exploits it.  The balance of the video shows video clipping in a simple way, using metaphors like "wide vs narrow" rainbows, muffin tops, etc.  I address the photography enthusiast who wants to appreciate and enjoy photography.


Gary.

You are now trying to convince us that you used the metaphor in order to simplify and shorten an explanation.
But what we all understood here I think, is that it is what you actually believed until being corrected.

The concrete proof is the comment where you say Cyans are not being clipped in narrowers gamuts because they're in the center of the rainbow, while arguing with an expert.

So I'm afraid that until you recognize this and insist saying that it's an acceptable way to teach color spaces to the neophytes, it will only damage your credibility.
As your want to be an instructor and.. credibility kind of matters in this field, I would suggest one more time to delete those videos.. because they're so bad and quit trying to cover this up by telling it was intentional.
It's just too late for that, you gave too many elements making impossible to believe you.

I'm sure you learned more about color spaces since as we all tried to explain you how it works and gave you quality sources to read or watch.
So you see it now right?

It really is painful to watch you bury yourself in this.. like: WHY!?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 01:02:40 pm by supercurio »
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MarkM

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #84 on: August 24, 2014, 12:54:47 pm »

The video I am doing with Will Crockett will address just this.  How such confusion spills out into the search engines, how sRGB vs AdobeRGB is such a hotly debated topic (as is JPG vs RAW) and, additionally (this is inspired by Rodney) how the elitist 'measurbators' (I loved that word!) spout out anger like this which results in people who want to enjoy photography and be more discouraged.

There can be no debate that if you shoot in AdobeRGB and share via web browser, or make wet process lab prints, you would have to convert your aRGB file to sRGB first or suffer muted colors. 

Gary, sRGB vs. AdobeRGB is not being hotly debated. Everyone agrees that sRGB has its place, is a good space for people shooting jpegs to share online etc.. It is the space I would recommend my dad set his camera to.

What is being debated is your cockamamie explanation why. It's great that you want to simplify this for people; it's not so great that you use wrong explanations because they're simpler and then fly off the handle and call people idiots when they correct you. It's like me telling you the sky is blue because unicorn piss is blue and  lighter than air, so over time has accumulated in the atmosphere. When people call me out I tell them they're idiots because you just look and see that the sky is obviously blue.
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digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #85 on: August 24, 2014, 01:02:42 pm »

There can be no debate that if you shoot in AdobeRGB and share via web browser, or make wet process lab prints, you would have to convert your aRGB file to sRGB first or suffer muted colors.
Absolutely false. There is a debate with you on this! More importantly not a single person here or on your video site has agreed with this  and other incorrect statements! This kind of statement of 'fact' comes from someone who apparently has never used an ICC color managed application to make a print. One absolutely does NOT have to convert to sRGB from Adobe RGB to make a print! Expect perhaps for people like yourself who don't understand color management and have a history running a lab that have front ends that demand data in a tagged sRGB (and no other color space) and incorrectly think that the printer is an sRGB device. It isn't, no such device exists other than an emissive display.
Quote
Nowhere in the file did I say sRGB had more data.
No, in two places in the video, you said Adobe RGB has more colors than sRGB.
At 1:04 you say:
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Both colors and the ends of the rainbows are the same (that's wrong Gary).
The difference between Adobe RGB and sRGB is that there are more colors inbetwen.
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Here's another way of seeing my explanation.  It's like saying, "you can shoot video in 4k, and it is better - provided you have equipment to express it... if you are going to upload to web, or view your videos in HDTV or smaller, shoot in 1080."  So the mixed crowd of enthusiasts says, "huh?  What's 4k?  What's 1080p?"  So you have to use metaphors to help the most people understand.
You still don't get the reason so many people are calling you out Gary. Your message has merit! The way it's expressed is technically wrong in so many areas. If you had listened to the voices of reason and fixed the egregiously incorrect language, the video would have been maybe 30 seconds and all you would have to say is "if you don't know anything about color spaces or the difference between sRGB and Adobe RGB (1998), just use sRGB".
Not a single person who posted on your video comments around the web would have argued or done anything but agreed with you. But how you explained your point is simple color management science fiction. It's wrong. No one has backed you up because what you said was wrong.

You can still delete the video and all the negative comments and create a video expressing your valid message correctly.
You could spend a fraction of the time you wasted arguing with people who called you out and create a video we'd agree with and promote instead of creating a video that's flat out wrong and having all kinds of people around the internet see you are more concerned with defending flat earth theories and looking foolish.
You fail to see that some tried to help you.
You took it personally.
You called out the race card when it wasn't necessary.
You're now calling upon someone who's reputation for producing nearly equally incorrect information about color management to create yet another video to defend two of your video’s that can't be defended on a technical basis nor were peer reviewed.

Save yourself more time and shame, pull both video's. Create them again using the message that has merit but expressed using proper and correct color management science!
You'll get no blow back.
You'll get peer recommendation.
Your audience will not have to wonder if you're selling snake oil or false data points.
Your audience will get good education and information. Win/Win Gary.

But to continue to come into this lion's den of informed users and try to defend what you've done isn't helping you one bit. Just the opposite. That you don't see this after so many days is sad. Why are you going down this destructive route? When dozens of people tell you the salient points used to express a concept is technically flawed, is it possible they might be correct? Is it possible they might want to help you provide the message with merit correctly? Or everyone is wrong and against you? The comments about your lighting product was IMHO unfair and not deserved. The comments about the technically incorrect data points you express about color management are fair, this isn't an opinion or subjective, it's science.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 03:02:26 pm by digitaldog »
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garyfong

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #86 on: August 24, 2014, 01:04:07 pm »

If you'll look at my earlier video in Toronto, I have the same message.  Ken Rockwell shows the same linear ramp on his explanation of AdobeRGB and sRGB.  http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/adobe-rgb.htm

As I said in the last post, would you like me to break up the rainbow and make humps where there is more color information?  Would that make much difference when all I'm trying to do is explain color clipping?  What I learned here is how angry people can get, as if contamination of the purity of the message will infect the photography world with misinformation.

So I'm going to be putting this to the test, with printing images within each color space (beginning to end), and showing it to the general public.  If you all are right, the overwhelming majority will definitively pick the Adobe RGB over the sRGB, and I will give the tally, and entitle the video something like, "Workflow steps to achieve significantly better color".  If it results in confusion, a tie, close to a tie, or sRGB being better, then the video will be something like, "The AdobeRGB myth".  But I need your comments to reference regards to the "myth".


I'm not taking down the video.  I need to reference the comments below it in my upcoming series on sRGB vs AdobeRGB.  I'm going to be quoting from the video comments.
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digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #87 on: August 24, 2014, 01:10:02 pm »

If you'll look at my earlier video in Toronto, I have the same message.  Ken Rockwell shows the same linear ramp on his explanation of AdobeRGB and sRGB.  http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/adobe-rgb.htm
Yes and both you, Ken and Will are wrong in terms of sound, well accepted color management science. It is as simple as that.
When Will states 
Quote
FACT ONE: there are no printers with a color space (aka output space) that is larger (holding more volume of data) than sRGB.
it is absolutely not so! The gamut maps and gamut volume reports prove otherwise. You three may be providing the same message with merit, but teaching it with false and incorrect color theory doesn't make the false statements any less incorrect. How you three don't get that is beyond me.
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supercurio

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #88 on: August 24, 2014, 01:13:38 pm »

If you'll look at my earlier video in Toronto, I have the same message.  Ken Rockwell shows the same linear ramp on his explanation of AdobeRGB and sRGB.  http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/adobe-rgb.htm

As I said in the last post, would you like me to break up the rainbow and make humps where there is more color information?  Would that make much difference when all I'm trying to do is explain color clipping?  What I learned here is how angry people can get, as if contamination of the purity of the message will infect the photography world with misinformation.

So I'm going to be putting this to the test, with printing images within each color space (beginning to end), and showing it to the general public.  If you all are right, the overwhelming majority will definitively pick the Adobe RGB over the sRGB, and I will give the tally, and entitle the video something like, "Workflow steps to achieve significantly better color".  If it results in confusion, a tie, close to a tie, or sRGB being better, then the video will be something like, "The AdobeRGB myth".  But I need your comments to reference regards to the "myth".


I'm not taking down the video.  I need to reference the comments below it in my upcoming series on sRGB vs AdobeRGB.  I'm going to be quoting from the video comments.

Ohh this this where you got the idea of the rainbow?

Okay, so beginning of the misconception here.

Explanation of the fail is very simple then:
Look at http://www.kenrockwell.com/Images/jpg/100-adobe-ramp.jpg metas.

This Adobe RGB encoded image is not indicating its color space.
In color management software specs (including browser) an image without color profile attached is assumed sRGB.

So concretely in this page, Ken Rockwell shows an Adobe RGB image declaring itself sRGB.
Of course the colors appear wrong!

However today's desktop browsers would have displayed the same image correctly if it wasn't intentionally crippled by missing the required ICC profile.

Note: as of today, mobile web browsers (except FireFox) lack color management.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 01:19:06 pm by supercurio »
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MarkM

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #89 on: August 24, 2014, 01:14:02 pm »


As I said in the last post, would you like me to break up the rainbow and make humps where there is more color information?  Would that make much difference when all I'm trying to do is explain color clipping?  

Please don't do that. Just use a chromaticity diagram like everyone else. It's not complicated and it's been the standard way to illustrate color for a long time.
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garyfong

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #90 on: August 24, 2014, 01:25:36 pm »

I said if you had an aRGB file you would have to convert to sRGB before uploading to web or most wet process beforehand.  Not the otherway around.

What do you think will be the result of my public opinion test when I show passersby unmarked prints of images taken both in contained sRGB or aRGB workflows?  I'll put up a tally of who voted for which.  Do you think the result will be enormously in favor of the AdobeRGB workflow print, or the sRGB workflow print?
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supercurio

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #91 on: August 24, 2014, 01:30:11 pm »

I said if you had an aRGB file you would have to convert to sRGB before uploading to web or most wet process beforehand.  Not the otherway around.

What do you think will be the result of my public opinion test when I show passersby unmarked prints of images taken both in contained sRGB or aRGB workflows?  I'll put up a tally of who voted for which.  Do you think the result will be enormously in favor of the AdobeRGB workflow print, or the sRGB workflow print?

Depends,
If the process you plan to use is to print Adobe RGB and sRGB images on flawed equipment that's incapable of supporting the most basic color management capabilities, and fail to interpret colors correctly:

Of course a majority of people will prefer images with more saturated colors.

So in case this is what you plan to do, the only thing you'll demonstrate is how bad is your workflow.
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garyfong

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #92 on: August 24, 2014, 01:44:45 pm »

Depends,
If the process you plan to use is to print Adobe RGB and sRGB images on flawed equipment that's incapable of supporting the most basic color management capabilities, and fail to interpret colors correctly:

Of course a majority of people will prefer images with more saturated colors.

So in case this is what you plan to do, the only thing you'll demonstrate is how bad is your workflow.

I'm going to be using a commercial inkjet printer from a pro lab.  Image shot in AdobeRGB and printed in AdobeRGB, sRGB printed in sRGB.  This is demonstrating how bad my workflow is?  Are you expecting that the average person will vote for the sRGB?  Or maybe it'll be a tie?

Tell me in advance what is bad about the workflow I'm going to use, so I can consider it for the video.
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supercurio

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #93 on: August 24, 2014, 01:46:50 pm »

I said if you had an aRGB file you would have to convert to sRGB before uploading to web or most wet process beforehand.  Not the otherway around.

What do you think will be the result of my public opinion test when I show passersby unmarked prints of images taken both in contained sRGB or aRGB workflows?  I'll put up a tally of who voted for which.  Do you think the result will be enormously in favor of the AdobeRGB workflow print, or the sRGB workflow print?

I have two questions following up on that, and what you say in the original sRGB vs Adobe RGB  video at 1:38

Transcript:
Quote
I ran a lab named Pictage, the largest digital lab in the united states.
For a long time I was working with people's images and I could look at anybody's photos and say
"you know what, I'm sorry but you shot that in Adobe RGB and you printed it on a color printer that is regular prints
I can tell by the colors the reds because they look muddy"

Were you saying here that your lab didn't support ICC profiles and were printing only sRGB encoded images correctly?
Is that the experiment you plan to reproduce:
Intentionally pick broken software and printers lacking color management to demonstrate your point?
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digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #94 on: August 24, 2014, 01:49:11 pm »

I said if you had an aRGB file you would have to convert to sRGB before uploading to web or most wet process beforehand.  Not the otherway around.
No, you wouldn't. Not for whatever you mean by wet process (you'd convert to the output color space from ANY RGB working space) and not on the web with a color managed browser. It's a good idea to convert to sRGB for those that don't have a color managed browser. And as I tried to point out to you, Adobe RGB (1998) in a non color managed browser would look fine on my wide gamut display, sRGB would not. The lesson here for you Gary is with color managed applications and using sound color management for output, you absolutely do not have to feed either sRGB!
Quote
What do you think will be the result of my public opinion test when I show passersby unmarked prints of images taken both in contained sRGB or aRGB workflows?  I'll put up a tally of who voted for which.  Do you think the result will be enormously in favor of the AdobeRGB workflow print, or the sRGB workflow print?
The first question I'd have is, are you even treating the data correctly? I'm highly suspicious you will. Next, had you watched my video on color gamut or understood it, you'd see that clipping colors to sRGB you can print will affect the reproduction of that image on a print. If the image was of the Mendocino ocean shot, both working spaces would produce about the same results. If you used the sunset, or birds eye image, the difference could be seen on a print assuming even a half decent printer who's gamut exceeds sRGB. Any modern ink jet from Epson, Canon etc will greatly exceeed sRGB gamut.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 02:56:32 pm by digitaldog »
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supercurio

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #95 on: August 24, 2014, 01:52:45 pm »

I'm going to be using a commercial inkjet printer from a pro lab.  Image shot in AdobeRGB and printed in AdobeRGB, sRGB printed in sRGB.  This is demonstrating how bad my workflow is?  Are you expecting that the average person will vote for the sRGB?  Or maybe it'll be a tie?

Tell me in advance what is bad about the workflow I'm going to use, so I can consider it for the video.

Sorry I have no experience with printers so I can't give any advise on that.

However, anticipating you know the reaction to this potential video, what you might inadvertently do is expose a buggy or flawed implementation of color management in this printer, or its driver.
It won't demonstrate a general point, but instead pin point a specific defect.

In case you know and you're friend with the manufacturer of this printer, expect him to not be too happy with your demonstration as people will point out its flaw.
I mean I understand your initiative here, but given the elements it's easy to predict it won't make the topic progress much and will have annoying side effects.
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digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #96 on: August 24, 2014, 01:58:46 pm »

I'm going to be using a commercial inkjet printer from a pro lab.  Image shot in AdobeRGB and printed in AdobeRGB, sRGB printed in sRGB.  This is demonstrating how bad my workflow is?  Are you expecting that the average person will vote for the sRGB?  Or maybe it'll be a tie?
It doesn't matter a lick! How will this in any way dismiss or correct the technically flawed language you used in two videos on the subject of RGB working spaces? The new video you propose isn't based on a sound scientific proposition anyway.

You are clearly not interested in any advise presented here although you ask which is a bit odd. Best thing to do Gary is not rush to create another technically flawed video in an attempt to cover up the flaws in the other two videos. Take a deep breath and examine the comments here and on your other video pages from people who are really are trying to help you and more importantly your audience. If you ask 99 people what print they prefer and all 99 say sRGB, it in no way gets you off the hook in terms of the technical flaws in the videos. People can accuse you of editing the video to suite your predefined expectations. People can poke at flaws in your workflow and process and dismiss the results which in the end, don't do anything to fix the technical wrong doing's in both previous videos. What's the rush Gary? Wouldn't it be better to digest the comments you've gotten over the past couple days on your last video?
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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #97 on: August 24, 2014, 01:59:52 pm »

Do you guys ever take pictures?  I would think not, given the amount of time  you spend ranting on this topic.  Hasn't it gone on long enough?  Gary is clearly not going to change his mind no matter what is said; the anti-Gary gang is never going to accept his version of color control, so why don't you all just declare victory and go take picture?
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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #98 on: August 24, 2014, 02:03:09 pm »

Do you guys ever take pictures?  I would think not, given the amount of time  you spend ranting on this topic.  Hasn't it gone on long enough?  Gary is clearly not going to change his mind no matter what is said; the anti-Gary gang is never going to accept his version of color control, so why don't you all just declare victory and go take picture?


No offense but.. not sure you get the point of discussion forums in the internet ;D
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digitaldog

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Re: sRGB vs. Adobe RGB: New color management stand up comic
« Reply #99 on: August 24, 2014, 02:05:09 pm »

Do you guys ever take pictures?
Yes, all the time, even in fact today! Is that an important data point in the discussion?
Quote
I would think not, given the amount of time  you spend ranting on this topic.
They why ask?
Quote
Hasn't it gone on long enough?
For some yes, for others no. If it's gone on too long for you, no one is forcing you to read or comment on these posts.
Quote
Gary is clearly not going to change his mind no matter what is said; the anti-Gary gang is never going to accept his version of color control, so why don't you all just declare victory and go take picture?
Some of us are trying to give Gary the benefit of the doubt although based on his writings over the past few days, I suspect your suspicions are correct. But as Gary has suggested he intends to link to this set of discussions in his new video and he continues to ask questions, some are attempting to answer them. And as said earlier, much of this is akin to a good car wreck, it's getting progressively more difficult to turn away after every new Fong posting. But heck, you don't want to read or comment, that's fine, you don't have to.
Speaking for myself, this isn't anti Gary, it's anti color management religion and pro color management science.
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