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Author Topic: Scottish Independende Debate  (Read 62764 times)

AreBee

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #180 on: September 08, 2014, 03:27:33 pm »

Isaac,

Quote
"I find it mind-boggling that Scotland would consider going down this path after all that has happened in the last few years. If Scottish voters really believe that it’s safe to become a country without a currency, they have been badly misled."

Proof positive that independence isn't about the money after all. :P
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Chairman Bill

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #181 on: September 08, 2014, 04:18:48 pm »

The Yes campaign has just suffered a serious blow, with news of a new series of The Clangers due for release in 2017, for UK audiences only. There'll be no blue string & green soup north of the border if you vote yes.

AreBee

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #182 on: September 08, 2014, 05:46:34 pm »

Dave,

Quote
...if you want the real forecast of the expected outcome of the Y/N vote, then just look at the betting odds, as the bookies don't care about politics, only winning money and they are currently putting the No campaign as the odds on favourites to win.

http://www.holyrood.com/2011/05/betting-on-the-outcome/
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Dave (Isle of Skye)

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #183 on: September 09, 2014, 04:41:21 am »

Dave,

http://www.holyrood.com/2011/05/betting-on-the-outcome/

Rob I instantly deleted that post you have quoted in part above, because I thought it was probably more upsetting to both sides of the campaign, than it was useful, mentioning as I did some of the more ridiculous reasons people are choosing to base this, their most momentous decision upon - I agree the betting could go either way, as could the decision, but what saddens me most, is how many people voting, are doing so on such frivolous reasoning and with out any regard to the fact that the outcome (in my opinion) could be the complete dissolution of the 300 year old union and the possibility of turning the UK in what ever form it finally takes, into a third world country.

I am sticking by Scotland whatever happens and have chosen this to be the place I spend the rest of my life, but I do fear what we who live in this, the most beautiful part of the UK, are choosing to do to ourselves just so the politicians can benefit.

This separation if it happens, will be a divorce of a long standing partnership and a very acrimonious divorce at that, so if all this and the strife that will definitely ensue is worth it to the Yes side, then so be it go for it, but I think in hindsight that this decision will go down in the history books, as the most ridiculous thing that we have ever done to this small island and its people. But of course, your opinion may differ.

Dave
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stamper

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #184 on: September 09, 2014, 04:47:36 am »

Quote Dave Reply#204

Rob I instantly deleted that post you have quoted in part above,

unquote

Dave are you a moderator or is it a typing error? Are the originators of threads allowed to delete other member's posts?  :(

Chairman Bill

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #185 on: September 09, 2014, 04:54:35 am »

I think Dave deleted his own post, which was the one quoted

PhotoEcosse

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #186 on: September 09, 2014, 09:13:39 am »

Interesting that after Cameron and Queenie (who were holidaying together at Balmoral) read the Sunday Times headline, less than 24 hours passed before a new "Royal Baby" story hit the media.

Is this a co-incidence or a devilish plot to influence the referendum? Surely we should be told.
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AreBee

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #187 on: September 09, 2014, 09:15:29 am »

Chairman Bill,

Quote
I think Dave deleted his own post, which was the one quoted

Indeed.



Dave,

Quote
...what saddens me most, is how many people voting, are doing so on such frivolous reasoning...

...democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time...

Spoken by, but not attributed to Winston Churchill.

Quote
...and with out any regard to the fact that the outcome (in my opinion) could be the complete dissolution of the 300 year old union and the possibility of turning the UK in what ever form it finally takes, into a third world country.

This seems rather alarmist. Did the UK become a third world country as countries successively gained their independence from Empire?

Quote
…I do fear what we who live in this, the most beautiful part of the UK, are choosing to do to ourselves just so the politicians can benefit.

I would be astonished if you could find a Yes voter whose stated rationale for voting Yes is so that “the politicians can benefit”.

Quote
…if all this and the strife that will definitely ensue is worth it to the Yes side, then so be it go for it, but I think in hindsight that this decision will go down in the history books, as the most ridiculous thing that we have ever done to this small island and its people.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-yes-campaign-chief-turns-the-question-on-its-head-1-2475676

Which is more ridiculous: ending a parliamentary union with England or entering one?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #188 on: September 09, 2014, 10:25:55 am »

Loud voices in the Yes campaign have said they will not "have their own, or Euro", that's why it became an issue.

I might be dense, but I could not see in the linked video anything that supports that Scotland will not have their own currency or Euro. They already have Scottish Pound, and they seem to be willing to keep it... isn't it then "their own"?

Justinr

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #189 on: September 09, 2014, 12:02:59 pm »

Interesting that after Cameron and Queenie (who were holidaying together at Balmoral) read the Sunday Times headline, less than 24 hours passed before a new "Royal Baby" story hit the media.

Is this a co-incidence or a devilish plot to influence the referendum? Surely we should be told.

As good a reason for voting 'yes' as any.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #190 on: September 09, 2014, 12:36:03 pm »

The current "Scottish Pound" is the British Pound GBP (printed with different pictures). It's underwritten by the UK central bank, the Bank of England.

I am aware of that. Once again, a parallel with former Yugoslavia: when Slovenia separated, they started printing their own money (tolar) "with different pictures," but kept it pegged 1:1 to Yugoslav dinar, the currency of the country they just separated from. If I am not mistaken, that is exactly what the guy in the video you linked was proposing too: printing Scottish Pound "with different pictures," pegged 1:1 to British Pound.

Come to think of it, I am still puzzled by various doomsday scenarios circling around, some on this thread as well. Relax, it's been done before.

Dave (Isle of Skye)

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #191 on: September 09, 2014, 04:04:09 pm »

Come to think of it, I am still puzzled by various doomsday scenarios circling around, some on this thread as well. Relax, it's been done before.

I agree, but this is such an emotional issue by both sides of the debate, that the language and terms used, are bound to reflect that emotionality.

Quote Dave Reply#204

Rob I instantly deleted that post you have quoted in part above,

unquote

Dave are you a moderator or is it a typing error? Are the originators of threads allowed to delete other member's posts?  :(

Bill is correct, it was only my own post that I deleted, as I do not have the rights or inclination to delete anyone else's post, although I do believe the originator of a thread does have the ability to lock or even delete the entire thread completely.

But as I said earlier and also trying to steer clear of any doomsday scenarios, I love Scotland, it has always been and still is my dream to live and work here and perhaps more importantly, to continue my photography in this beautiful place. It is just that now I am here and everything seems to be as good as I hoped it would be and certainly much better than Sheffield where I was born, that I cannot understand why anyone lucky enough to also live and work here, would choose to risk what we already have. Yes things could be better, we always dream that things could be better, it is what gets us out of bed in a morning, but we must also realise just how good we have it now when compared to every other generation before us. For me voting No means a continuation of safety, surety and a sense of security, whereas voting Yes means taking a gamble with absolutely everything, in the vain hope that things might turn out to be a tiny bit better, but based on nothing other than vague ideas and empty promises, and also as I am now of an age where I have heard it all a zillion times before and from every hue of political wannabe, I have finally learnt that whatever they promise you for your support, will NOT materialise, it never ever does, it is always a pig in a poke they are selling you and I do mean always, but for some unknown reason, we are still daft enough to keep swallowing it and ending up with egg on our faces, as they laugh all the way to the bank. That is why we keep choosing different political groups to represent us, because we trust them and then find out they are lying, so we kick them out and then vote for the other lot, until we realise they were also lying, so we kick them out and so on and so on, with independence, when we inevitably find out it has also been nothing more than a new set of lies and waffle, we are going to be stuck with it, forever and ever amen.

Politics is the worse thing we could do I agree, but I also agree that it is better than any other idea we have come up with so far, but we really do have to start taking responsibility for our own ongoing naivety, for repeatedly allowing them to hoodwink us so effortlessly into voting for what benefits them, via a list of solemn promises of what they will do for us, but which they never, ever, do.

So I suppose it comes down to this, if you are willing to believe what the SNP are promising you, then vote yes, but if you want the general continuation and security of what you already have, based on NO political promises from any political parties, just the reality of what you have right now, then vote no.

Dave
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 05:01:31 pm by Dave (Isle of Skye) »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #192 on: September 09, 2014, 05:02:24 pm »

It seems to me that, apart from nationalism, historic resentments and animosities, this choice is also about the style of capitalism: Nordic style (i.e., welfare state) vs. Anglo-American style (i.e., law of the jungle) - based on the table PhotoEcosse posted earlier. Am I mistaken?

PhotoEcosse

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #193 on: September 10, 2014, 05:05:37 am »

It seems to me that, apart from nationalism, historic resentments and animosities, this choice is also about the style of capitalism: Nordic style (i.e., welfare state) vs. Anglo-American style (i.e., law of the jungle) - based on the table PhotoEcosse posted earlier. Am I mistaken?

You are mistaken about it having anything to do with "nationalism, historic resentments and animosities". Despite the cynical attempts of the NO campaign to drive wedges between us with threats of border guards, etc.,, after independence there will be the same "friends and neighbours" situation between Scotland and rUK as the UK currently enjoys with the Republic of Ireland.

However, your comment about different models of capitalism is very pertinent. Folk in Scotland (and, to be fair, the north of England) do tend to be much more liberal - in the old-fashioned sense - that those in the south-east of the UK. Most of us would very happily pay a bit more in tax to pay for better health, education and welfare services - provided we felt that the money and the services were being managed by a government we actually voted for.
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john beardsworth

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #194 on: September 10, 2014, 07:21:00 am »

Oh no, nothing to do with "nationalism, historic resentments and animosities". /irony

I'd agree with Slobodan's characterisation of the economic models, but there was an interesting academic study on Radio 4's Today programme yesterday. It found that Scots only see themselves as being more liberal/left than the English (I'd say Northern English have a similar view) but that their actual views on specific policies are little different. It's the study mentioned in this article The myth of meritocratic Scotland.
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AreBee

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Re: Scottish Independence Debate
« Reply #195 on: September 10, 2014, 09:51:41 am »

Isaac,

Quote
'BBC economics editor Robert Peston said that the coalition parties and Labour feared that an independent Scotland in a currency union could "live dangerously beyond its means...

Oh, the irony.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #196 on: September 10, 2014, 12:26:12 pm »

You are mistaken about it having anything to do with "nationalism, historic resentments and animosities".... after independence there will be the same "friends and neighbours" situation between Scotland and rUK as the UK currently enjoys with the Republic of Ireland....

If the best example of "friendly" is Irish and Brits, than I guess I wasn't mistaken ;)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #197 on: September 10, 2014, 12:38:06 pm »

... Folk in Scotland (and, to be fair, the north of England) do tend to be much more liberal - in the old-fashioned sense - that those in the south-east of the UK...

Being liberal (i.e., being pro-wealth distribution) works only as long as there is wealth to distribute. And there is wealth to distribute as long as there is new wealth creation. I am afraid I do not know much about Scottish economy, apart from whiskey production, and that you are a net exporter of good actors :) So, what is the source of that wealth creation? Are you oil rich, as Norway? In the long list of welfare entitlements in the table you provided, I have not seen a single item to promote or stimulate wealth creation.

deejjjaaaa

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #198 on: September 10, 2014, 02:09:09 pm »

Being liberal (i.e., being pro-wealth distribution) works only as long as there is wealth to distribute. And there is wealth to distribute as long as there is new wealth creation. I am afraid I do not know much about Scottish economy, apart from whiskey production, and that you are a net exporter of good actors :) So, what is the source of that wealth creation? Are you oil rich, as Norway? In the long list of welfare entitlements in the table you provided, I have not seen a single item to promote or stimulate wealth creation.

Scots might start by stopping to pay their part for British military spending wasted on cases like Libya or Iraq... that shall help both Scots and British folks at once... British might find the spending more high to maintain their policy of invading or bombing other countries under the false pretences.
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john beardsworth

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Re: Scottish Independende Debate
« Reply #199 on: September 10, 2014, 02:51:52 pm »

I think we can do without such hypocrisy from "deejjjaaaa" - if you don't know, his avatar is the flag of those who murdered the passengers on the Malaysian airliner, and plenty others....
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 02:53:44 pm by john beardsworth »
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