Scottish Independende Debate

[john beardsworth]

Well, I can only lump you in with deeeejaaaa and ignore you too from now on. Figured out the difference between pseudonyms and anonymity yet? Doh.

[stamper]

pseudonyms

I know the difference between John Beardy and John Beardsworth. Do you?

[john beardsworth]

Why don't you ignore me too, dumbo? We'll both be much happier.

[PhotoEcosse]

With regards to people having an opinion I will refine what I meant. David Cameron the UK Prime minister has refused several times to debate with Alex Salmond, Scotland's First Minister, about the prospect of Scots leaving the UK. His excuse is, it is for Scots to decide and nobody else including himself. Yesterday, August 28th, he visited Glasgow in Scotland and lectured business people about the drawbacks of separation and then did a TV interview lecturing anyone willing to listen. That is a perfect example of why I stated that only the people who are eligible to vote should have an opinion.  

Cameron having an opinion is inevitable. Why wouldn't/shouldn't he?

Look on the bright side, Stamper. There are more pandas than Tory MPs in Scotland. We, as a nation, despise the Old Etonian, politics of privilege, self-perpetuating governing clique of the London-based Tories. Every time Cameron or his ilk step over the border to "lecture" us, they add heavily to the "YES!" vote.

 

[stamper]

Well, I can only lump you in with deeeejaaaa and ignore you too from now on. Figured out the difference between pseudonyms and anonymity yet? Doh.

Why don't you ignore me too, dumbo? We'll both be much happier.

John in the interest of keeping the thread on course and not upsetting Dave I will let you have the last words. Go on and choose them

[stamper]

Cameron having an opinion is inevitable. Why wouldn't/shouldn't he?

Look on the bright side, Stamper. There are more pandas than Tory MPs in Scotland. We, as a nation, despise the Old Etonian, politics of privilege, self-perpetuating governing clique of the London-based Tories. Every time Cameron or his ilk step over the border to "lecture" us, they add heavily to the "YES!" vote.

 

I certainly wish that was true but there are "undecided" that still can be scared into the NO camp. Unfortunately probably enough to "win" After a NO vote and Osborne wields his austerity cuts how many of the NO's will wish they hadn't voted NO? BTW I am voting YES.

[PhotoEcosse]

I certainly wish that was true but there are "undecided" that still can be scared into the NO camp. Unfortunately probably enough to "win" After a NO vote and Osborne wields his austerity cuts how many of the NO's will wish they hadn't voted NO? BTW I am voting YES.

I hope you are wrong about that.

I think the negative scaremongering of the Bitter Together campaign probably had its effect months ago. My guess is that, from now until the voting day, we will see the undecided becoming increasingly influenced by the positives of the YES campaign. I also think that some of those that were scared into the NO camp will realise that they were silly to be bullied in that way and will change to YES.

If anyone should be scared, it is the NO voters. They should be scared about what vindictive steps Cameron, Clegg, Miliband and their Westminster cronies will take upon a Scotland that was too timid to grasp control of their own future.

[john beardsworth]

I'm welling up with tears at the thought of all those weak-minded folk who have been scared and bullied into the no camp. Poor wee lambs. And their reward, dear me, will be those nasty London politicians banning their deep fried Mars bars and passing laws for subtitles for any Scots lucky enough to be heard on English TV. Where's my tartan hankie?

[AreBee]

Isaac,

Nonetheless threatening to reject family seems unlikely to generate good feeling.

What has been proposed is the dissolution of the union of parliaments. No more, no less.

[john beardsworth]

The dissolution of a sovereign state and the addition of enormous uncertainties for everyone is a bit more than merely ending a union of parliaments (which isn't the legal basis of the union anyway), and you really can't expect that separation is going to generate good feeling south of Hadrian's Wall.

[AreBee]

John,

The dissolution of a sovereign state and the addition of enormous uncertainties for everyone is a bit more than merely ending a union of parliaments (which isn't the legal basis of the union anyway), and you really can't expect that separation is going to generate good feeling south of Hadrian's Wall.

Please base a response to me on what I have written, not on what I have not written.

[john beardsworth]

What has been proposed is the dissolution of the union of parliaments. No more, no less.

The dissolution of a sovereign state and the addition of enormous uncertainties for everyone is a bit more than merely ending a union of parliaments (which isn't the legal basis of the union anyway), and you really can't expect that separation is going to generate good feeling south of Hadrian's Wall.

[AreBee]

Hello Isaac,

I believe Dave (Isle of Skye) was using a figure of speech.

That does not alter the fact that the referendum is about governance. It has nothing to do with family, imagined or real.

Kind regards,

[Dave (Isle of Skye)]

This affects everyone, in the UK and Ireland and Europe, it also effects the US if the UK is no longer a nuclear power and as such, the balance of power in the world. It affects everyone who has paid into a UK based private pension scheme, that will be frozen in perpetuity if Scotland becomes a separate country, even service pensions – ask any expat who already lives abroad. It affects all our utilities, and banking, and the value of all our assets, for you and all your family, plus a long list of other material things and services that we now rely on so much.

To think this is just some simple separation is to undersell the most momentous decision that you or I will ever make, so for people to talk in terms that make it sound like the decision for independence is akin to making a choice as to what channel to watch on TV tonight, is entirely and worryingly wrong, it is not just a little bit of thing, it is MOMENTOUS!

Yet all I hear from the Yes people in answer to any serious questions put to them, is 'don't worry, everything will be OK', well I am worrying, because I have heard nothing to ease my worries other than simplistic reassurances and promises along the lines of the usual political reassurances of free beer tomorrow. I do not want to gamble the value of my house, my assets, my pension and my family's future on 'don't worry, everything will be OK'.

I was determined to try and stay out of this vote, but this lack of knowing what the hell is going to happen to me and my family if we do get a yes vote, other than being sure there will be a mass exodus of people and wealth hightailing it back down to what remains of the UK, has now pushed me into making a choice based on what I think could be a disastrous leap into the unknown, from a position of being fairly secure in semi retirement, and that choice for me is going to be NO, not because I do not want independence, but because these glib reassurances from the Yes people have frightened me away from coming to any other decision.

I am sure you will tell me that all this is due to the so called Operation Fear from the No campaign, but I feel it is more the result of desperation, after listening again and again to the Yes side talking down to me, with false smiles of reassurance plastered across their faces.

'Don't worry, everything will be OK' will not feed my family and is not OK with me.

There you go, I have said my piece and nailed my colours to the mast as they say, I will now wait for the rotten eggs to start flying in my direction .. 

Dave

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Hello Rob,

The referendum seems to be as much about emotion and identity, as fact.

For once, I agree with Isaac. As someone coming from a disintegrated country, I can tell you it is least of about governance, and much more about national identity, religion, emotions, historical animosities and grievances.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... 'don't worry, everything will be OK'....

Actually, it will be, Dave.

Pardon me for repeating myself, but I am saying that as someone coming from a disintegrated country, who's parts were even at war with each other, it all falls into place eventually. Not to mention if the separation is peaceful.

My father was a Serb, living in Serbia, but a Croatian pensioner. Yes, there was a brief period when the pensions stopped (actually replaced by the Serbian government) and then everything returned to normal. Remember, there was a civil war in the meantime.

[AreBee]

Isaac,

The referendum seems to be as much about emotion and identity, as fact.

For many, it will be. Nevertheless, the Scottish electorate is not being asked to vote on their identity or on emotion. The question to be answered is political: "Should Scotland be an independent country?". The outcome will determine if Scotland is governed by Westminster or Holyrood.




Dave,

This affects everyone...

To think this is just some simple separation is to undersell the most momentous decision that you or I will ever make, so for people to talk in terms that make it sound like the decision for independence is akin to making a choice as to what channel to watch on TV tonight, is entirely and worryingly wrong, it is not just a little bit of thing, it is MOMENTOUS!

I could not agree more.

Yet all I hear from the Yes people in answer to any serious questions put to them, is 'don't worry, everything will be OK', well I am worrying, because I have heard nothing to ease my worries other than simplistic reassurances and promises along the lines of the usual political reassurances of free beer tomorrow. I do not want to gamble the value of my house, my assets, my pension and my family's future on 'don't worry, everything will be OK'.

To paraphrase: All I hear from No people in answer to any serious question is 'you should be afraid - there is nothing which will be better under independence' Well, I am fed up being told what we cannot do by UK governments. Governments whose policies have not, and increasingly do not reflect the political view of the Scottish electorate. I have heard nothing to ease my worries about leaving the EU, or that the majority of cuts are yet to come, and I have heard nothing positive whatsoever about how we will help address adverse issues that affect Scotland, other than simplistic reassurances and promises along the lines of the usual reassurances of a Tory*/Labour*/Liberal Democrat* [delete as appropriate] will focus of health, education and jobs. I do not want Scotland to be governed by a parliament in another country, in which it has 9% representation and from which it receives 80% of the money it spends.

The above does not necessarily reflect my view - though it certainly reflects the view of many. It is intended to drive home the point that your argument can be easily reversed for one no less valid. You have every right to expect to receive factual information which will enable you to arrive at an informed decision...and it is naive in the extreme to ever expect it to occur.

The Yes and No campaigns will never state anything other than "Everything will be fine" and "Everything will be awful" respectively. You know this, I know this, everyone knows this. However, while we cannot know for certain the future, the past can help to inform our decision. We can examine what has been promised and delivered, or reneged on. We also happen to live at a time where information on almost anything is more freely available than at any other time in history. If we cannot trust our politicians then we can help ourselves by investigating the issues that concern us. After all, the referendum is, as you say, "the most momentous decision that you or I will ever make".

I was determined to try and stay out of this vote...

May I ask why?

...but this lack of knowing what the hell is going to happen to me and my family if we do get a yes vote, other than being sure there will be a mass exodus of people and wealth hightailing it back down to what remains of the UK...

Do you know for certain that there will be "a mass exodus of people and wealth hightailing it back down to what remains of the UK"?

..has now pushed me into making a choice based on what I think could be a disastrous leap into the unknown

If it "could be" then it "could not be".

I am sure you will tell me...

I hope you do not refer to me, as I have not attempted to influence others' decision. As I stated in page two of this thread "All we can do is consider the kind of country we would like to have, and trust will be delivered, and vote accordingly". I refer you specifically to my use of the word "will".

I have said my piece and nailed my colours to the mast as they say, I will now wait for the rotten eggs to start flying in my direction.

If you truly consider that voting No is in the best interest of Scotland then you absolutely should do so.




Slobodan,

As someone coming from a disintegrated country, I can tell you it is least of about governance, and much more about national identity, religion, emotions, historical animosities and grievances.

Please refer above to my response to Isaac. People may consider the referendum to be about many things. That is their prerogative. The issue being voted upon is the governance of Scotland.

Your experience is with respect to your (?) country. Is it valid to extrapolate that the same will apply to Scotland?

[shawnino]

I guess what I'm struggling with is how anyone can vote "yes" without knowing the exact particulars. I guess if the status quo was North Korea, it wouldn't be a big leap to vote "yes" on faith, but let's be serious.

Were I a Scot, I could envision a fully negotiated settlement that would make me want to vote "yes".
I could also picture terms that would make me want to vote "no".

But without a full and complete definition of same, isn't it a pig in a poke? Why would I ever vote for change if I don't know what change means?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... Slobodan,

Please refer above to my response to Isaac. People may consider the referendum to be about many things. That is their prerogative. The issue being voted upon is the governance of Scotland.

Your experience is with respect to your (?) country. Is it valid to extrapolate that the same will apply to Scotland?

The question might be political, but the answer will be emotional.

As for valid extrapolation, I do not know... perhaps not... but I've certainly experienced first hand more separations and disintegrations than most here. I then worked in Russia and visited their break-away regions. I lived in Catalunya for several years, another hot-spot for separation. In all those places, nobody cares about politics, just national identity and historic grievances. As for governance, the only thing they care about is NOT to be governed by the other nation.

As for Scotland, the only thing that is missing in the equation is religion. National identity and historic animosities and grievances are there, or so I understand.

[Colorado David]

Some recent polls have the "No" camp gaining ground.

http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/polls/282505-new-referendum-poll-suggests-support-for-yes-vote-has-fallen/