Best System for Under $12K

[Justinr]

I'm hesitant to reply here because I don't shoot professionally any more.  I ran the numbers on photography versus other options while I was getting my MBA and didn't call myself a professional photographer a week later...

Anyway, I think you're coming at this backward.  It seems to me that equipment should be purchased for a particular purpose (after determining that buying makes more sense than renting), and you don't have a particular purpose yet.  Even worse, this isn't twenty years ago when you could buy high-quality used gear and resell it for around the same price a few years later -- this stuff depreciates fast.

I don't see any advantage to buying expensive gear now.  Pick it up after you can justify it (and by "justify" I mean "I need XXXXX in order to land a job I've lined up that pays $YYYY, and I can't rent the required equipment for some small fraction of $Y."  Find the work first.  If there are things you need to do to land the work (put together a great portfolio, develop business skills, whatever) then do that before you commit to serious five figure expenses.

I wonder how many others would as well if they really sat down and did the sums as you have done. Trouble is that there are few alternatives open to many.

[maddogmurph]

I ran the numbers on photography versus other options while I was getting my MBA and didn't call myself a professional photographer a week later...

Yeah, that's why I work a day job I don't like today, more $$$$, at some point you'll have to ask yourself is it worth it?  We only get one go around.  

I guess my real question was essentially, "Don't you think the quality of my portfolio will be better with a MF or Large Frame setup?  And therefor isn't it a good career move to produce files with greater depth, and with the MF look rather than a DSLR."  But what I'm hearing is the d800 produces files that I really won't notice the difference on if I shot them side by side, or the Mach II even.  Which frankly is good news.  Although I am thinking my plan now is to wait.  I'd like to see that 645z price come down a little bit.

[LKaven]

I guess my real question was essentially, "Don't you think the quality of my portfolio will be better with a MF or Large Frame setup?  And therefor isn't it a good career move to produce files with greater depth, and with the MF look rather than a DSLR."  But what I'm hearing is the d800 produces files that I really won't notice the difference on if I shot them side by side, or the Mach II even.  Which frankly is good news.  Although I am thinking my plan now is to wait.  I'd like to see that 645z price come down a little bit.

I would suggest the D800 heavily against the 5DmkII.  The D800 is a much better camera, and it will give you everything you are after in a high-end portfolio.  Of course the fundamentals of lighting, subject, composition, and post-processing will make or break your portfolio, and you can use any camera that is suitable for the situation at hand.

The medium format camera solution comes at a time when you've shown that you need something that you cannot otherwise get.  It is a very expensive investment that needs a very high expectation of return in order to justify as a business expense.  Otherwise, you can find yourself eating $20,000 or more.

[BernardLanguillier]

I would suggest the D800 heavily against the 5DmkII.  The D800 is a much better camera, and it will give you everything you are after in a high-end portfolio.  Of course the fundamentals of lighting, subject, composition, and post-processing will make or break your portfolio...

I would definitely go for the D810.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Justinr]

Yeah, that's why I work a day job I don't like today, more $$$$, at some point you'll have to ask yourself is it worth it?  We only get one go around.  

I guess my real question was essentially, "Don't you think the quality of my portfolio will be better with a MF or Large Frame setup?  And therefor isn't it a good career move to produce files with greater depth, and with the MF look rather than a DSLR."  But what I'm hearing is the d800 produces files that I really won't notice the difference on if I shot them side by side, or the Mach II even.  Which frankly is good news.  Although I am thinking my plan now is to wait.  I'd like to see that 645z price come down a little bit.

I can only talk about the business on this side of the pond but I rather fear that the number of  image purchasers who appreciate the difference is dwindling rapidly and those that are prepared to pay a premium are fewer still. Recent experience here in Ireland would certainly support that view but it may be healthier in the UK.

[torger]

$12K is very little in the MF world. You can stop there.

I got my own MF starter system for similar money, but it's a tech cam and I use it exclusively for slow paced landscape and architecture. No long exposures as the back lacks such capabilities. If you have a narrow use case which focus on strengths of the system you can find a successful concept, but your stylistic need seems to be much to broad for a $12K second hand system to work out.

[luxborealis]

$12,000 = a D810 (or used D800) plus 3 HQ zooms (WA + mid + tele) - and even that would be tough to do once taxes are added.

If you are already a good photographer and have a unique style that would stand out on a editor's desk, then put the money into learning the finer points of business and marketing as that's what will consume much of your time and will lead to more opportunities.

Very few pro photographers have the luxury of accepting assignments without doing years of leg work. We see them because they are the success stories in that niche. We never see the hundreds (thousands) who started working in pro photography and have ended up with a day job they don't like as much, but are able to comfortably put bread on the table, have a schedule that works with a family and now enjoy shooting and showing what they love rather than what clients demand. Yes, I'm speaking from experience and have no regrets.

[douglevy]

Amen. Literally my process before buying MFD.

Wait a year. Look for used systems. THink, "Will my clients appreciate this difference?" (probably, but not definitely). "Will this affect my ability to pay any bills for the next year? Even if the phone stops ringing?" "No." "Is this really a good idea?" Wait. 3 more months. Bought used system, then new DB.

[MrSmith]

i find there is always a tipping point with equipment where you just have to have a certain piece of equipment because:

your clients demand it.
it makes your work easier/saves time.
you keep hiring it so its about time you bought your own.
it makes financial sense to own it.

you need to be ticking at least 3 of those including the bottom one as buying a camera doesn’t make you a successful photographer, people paying you to shoot does.

[Justinr]

i find there is always a tipping point with equipment where you just have to have a certain piece of equipment because:

your clients demand it.
it makes your work easier/saves time.
you keep hiring it so its about time you bought your own.
it makes financial sense to own it.

you need to be ticking at least 3 of those including the bottom one as buying a camera doesn’t make you a successful photographer, people paying you to shoot does.

There is also the need to keep up with the quality being produced by others. Every time I have moved up (bar one) there has been an increase in image quality and less time required in front of the PC post capture. The old saw about a good photographer producing a high quality shot irrespective of equipment was more relevant when we all shared the same sensor (film) but it I'm not sure that it applies quite so much now.

[maddogmurph]

There is also the need to keep up with the quality being produced by others. Every time I have moved up (bar one) there has been an increase in image quality and less time required in front of the PC post capture. The old saw about a good photographer producing a high quality shot irrespective of equipment was more relevant when we all shared the same sensor (film) but it I'm not sure that it applies quite so much now.

Moments of perfect illusion, shots that you watch line up before your eyes and brings a slight tear to your eye because you know that you're a witness to timeless beauty, come very infrequently.  I think every photographer after spending enough time in the field knows of the deep emotion felt at that moment.  I'm really loving the Luminous Landscape, the people here are amazing, and I feel like I've found a new group of people that share a couple of my passions, helping others, and the pursuit of timeless beauty.  I'm definitely leaning strongly towards that 645z, but I'm going to take at least 3-6 months before making any type of moves.

[RobertJ]

Have you considered lighting? 

I think I've spent more money on lights (strobes/monolights), modifiers, scrims, fabrics, and grip equipment (c-stands, arms, gripheads, super clamps (you don't want to know how many super clamps I have), booms, etc) than camera equipment.

Yes, there are working photographers who take their cameras and go do a shoot with no lighting.  Are you planning on doing studio work?  Lighting can also be rented.  Heck, I think everything can be rented.

Here's a thought:  Have you considered a Sigma DP3 Merrill for portraits?  For $649 it will out-shoot all MF digital systems on the market, except maybe the 80MP backs, with no moire EVER, or digital artifacts, and you can sync with flash at 1/2000 of a second. 

The trade off is that the camera is slow to write, the battery life is terrible, you shouldn't go higher than ISO 100 (people say 400, but I disagree), and you'll need one of those overpriced Hoodman LCD loupes to make the camera look like it's NOT a point-and-shoot.  Also the RAW software is slow for 99 percent of people, but not so slow on my beast of a PC machine I built myself.

Oh to hell with it, just get a Nikon.

[eronald]

Oh to hell with it, just get a Nikon.

I would recommend a Canon, I prefer them. But in any case, a good general purpose camera.

Edmund

[Ken R]

I would recommend a Canon, I prefer them. But in any case, a good general purpose camera.

Edmund

The Canon 5D mark 3 is the most well rounded Camera ever made.

Great AF that works in almost any condition.
Really nice optical viewfinder.
Really nice Live View even w/ 10x magnification.
Sensor clean that actually works. Dust removal in post production almost a thing of the past, this one is a HUGE time saver.
Not too large or heavy.
Decent battery performance.
Dual card slots (CF and SD).
Fast enough for most things.
Weathersealed and very reliable.
Great high iso image quality.
Awesome lens selection.

The only thing that is missing is great base iso dynamic range performance and very high resolution files...

That is where the Nikon D810 steps in   ...and of course most any Medium Format Digital Back made recently  

[bcooter]

It all comes down to this.

Usually, you will use the camera you "want" to use.

I believe most photographers talk themselves into buying a camera because the excuse is they need it, but in reality they just want it.

Let's face it, new stuff is fun, old stuff is less fun.

This is a good example of apples to oranges, but still I think a good example even in small jpgs.



The image on the left is shot available light and mixed continuous light for fill and accents from a 1ds . . . a 11mpx camera.

The image on the right is with a p30+ and Contax . . . a 30mpx camera and studio flash.

Both by today's standards are old tech, both are viable today . . . actually very viable today.

In fact my Leica S2 and Canon 1dx won't change these images in the least.

So why did I buy new, well the 1dx I use for video backup, (at least that's what I told myself), the Leica, because I wanted a form
factor that was faster than the tradition medium format shape (contax), but really if I was honest, the Leica just because I wanted
it, the 1dx because it tethers very well.

When I bought my first two 1ds', I told our studio manager if I was smart (go figure), I would buy two more 1ds', put them in storage
and make a pledge not to buy another camera for 10 years.

I can promise this would have worked fine.

Comparing my S2 to my older p30 contax, there really is no difference in image quality.  Use yes, quality no.   That speaks well  for Phase
on the quality and reliability level, less so on the money side as the p30
with a Contax body and finder was 3x what I paid for the S2.

So buy what you want, but nothing beats a name brand dslr, either Canon or Nikon and the cost of a dslr is nothing compared to the lenses
which are always viable in the resale market, if you "want" to change systems.

I personally love medium format cameras, love the contax, lecia etc. but at the end of the day I bought it because I wanted to.

At the end of the day nobody will hire our group for the camersa, they will hire me us if they believe our work will fit the creative brief, or better yet
offer more than their expectations in look, style and of course budget.

They really don't count pixels anymore.

IMO

BC

[LKaven]

I recommend the OP should read bcooter's screed and take the advice as well given.  BC and his partner built up a thriving business from scratch, and deliver paid assignments for major market clients all day long. 

[eronald]

They really don't count pixels anymore.

IMO

BC

Yeah, they've stopped counting pixels but now they want video.

Edmund

[paul ross jones]

The Canon 5D mark 3 is the most well rounded Camera ever made.

Great AF that works in almost any condition.
Really nice optical viewfinder.
Really nice Live View even w/ 10x magnification.
Sensor clean that actually works. Dust removal in post production almost a thing of the past, this one is a HUGE time saver.
Not too large or heavy.
Decent battery performance.
Dual card slots (CF and SD).
Fast enough for most things.
Weathersealed and very reliable.
Great high iso image quality.
Awesome lens selection.

The only thing that is missing is great base iso dynamic range performance and very high resolution files...

That is where the Nikon D810 steps in   ...and of course most any Medium Format Digital Back made recently  

I've got a foot in both courts at the moment- i have a nikon d800 and a couple of lenses and a 5dmk3 and a pile of lenses. The nikon file is way nicer than the canon file with all my tests- although i prefer the usability of the canon (maybe its because i have used canon for a long time).

I hope canon releases something to compete with the d800/810 at photokina!

Paul

[Ken R]

I've got a foot in both courts at the moment- i have a nikon d800 and a couple of lenses and a 5dmk3 and a pile of lenses. The nikon file is way nicer than the canon file with all my tests- although i prefer the usability of the canon (maybe its because i have used canon for a long time).

I hope canon releases something to compete with the d800/810 at photokina!

Paul

Yeah, bottom line is that choosing gear is ultimately a matter of preference, specially nowadays since there are a LOT of good options out there. Generally a lot of professional photographers have multiple systems or at least have tried more than one. The preference is also not a static thing it might change over time just like one's work evolves and/or priorities change.

I also have been using Canon for many years but in the film days I was a Nikon user (loved the FM2) and in my MF days a Pentax 6x7 user. (My first DSLR was actually a Fuji S2 pro, I still have a lot of files from that camera and surprisingly (or not) they still look VERY nice nowadays!)

[luxborealis]

One thing to add that I heard from a pro photographer using Hasselblad when asked why Hasselblad and not Nikon or Canon at half the cost. He said that while image quality from either Canon or Nikon would be perfectly fine for his work, he found that his clients took him more seriously and, more importantly, never quibbled about the bill when he shot with a camera they didn't have and couldn't afford. He said that clients see the name Canon and Nikon and figure the work can't be that special as they have the camera at home, but with the Hassie, clients "knew" (thought) they were getting something special. You and I and every decent photographer know the reality of this situation, but as they say: "Perception is reality."