Pages: 1 ... 13 14 [15] 16 17 ... 20   Go Down

Author Topic: Gaza's on-going Palestinian civilians Killing  (Read 76773 times)

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13980
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: Gaza's on-going genocide
« Reply #280 on: August 09, 2014, 08:02:24 am »

I accused him of nothing other than, impliedly, anti-Israeli sentiment: there's a lot of that about. To suggest that I thus accused him of antisemitism or racism is to fall into the same fallacy that afflicts some defenders of Israel: you are against Israel, therefore you are antisemitic. I've said before that that's not a view I hold or a view I believe can rationally be held. If I consider it appropriate to level an accusation of antisemitism, I'll do it openly.

OK, let's see...

Being "against Israel" can have several meaning, but there are probably 2 main ones impacting this discussion:
- being critical of the actions of the Israeli government/army,
- being against Israel as a country.

The whole point of this threat being that I am critical of the actions of the Israeli government/army, what you implied is the existence of a pre-existing feeling against Israel, independently of their current actions.

You implied that I am against Israel as a country, regardless of what they are currently doing, correct? According to you, I would dislike them however good their actions, correct? And this inherent dislike was proposed by you as the explanation of the reason why I am critical of their actions. These actions, being according to you, beyond reproach. Still correct?

I we agree this far, I would like to understand better what you meant when you implied this pre-existing negative feeling against Israel.

Since a country is defined by its people more than by its geography or by its wines, and since the majority of people living in Israel are Jews, how is this supposed negative feeling against Israel different from a negative feeling against Jews, also known as antisemitism?

Thank you in advance for this clarification.

Cheers,
Bernard

PeterAit

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4647
    • Peter Aitken Photographs
Re: Gaza's on-going genocide
« Reply #281 on: August 09, 2014, 08:07:35 am »


I accused him of nothing other than, impliedly, anti-Israeli sentiment: there's a lot of that about.


Does it not occur to you that anti-Isaeli sentiment might be the result of Israel's actions over the past 60 years? In other words, a person can have some anti-Israeli sentiments without being biased against the country in any general way. One can also harbor anti- and pro-Israeli sentiments at the same time, as I have said before, it's foolish to get into the all-good or all-bad frame of mind, the world is almost always more complex.

As for being particularly interested in this conflict because Israel is involved, yes indeed and so what? That's the case with me. I have had an interest in Israel for decades and have always supported the existence and security of the country. OF COURSE I am going to take a greater interest than in a conflict where I have no emotional connection to the people involved. But, supporting Israel does not mean automatically supporting everything they do, and the fact that Israel is supposed to be the "good guys" makes it extra painful to me and many others when they engage in immoral, illegal, and vile actions. If you cannot understand that, there's nothing more I can say to you.
Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: Gaza's on-going genocide
« Reply #282 on: August 09, 2014, 09:41:22 am »

Hi,

My take on this:

  • I do acknowledge Israel's right to self defence
  • But, I also regret loss of human life and all the suffering
  • I have an understanding for Israel's need to act
  • I may seen Israel's response as unproportional, but I realise they have certain priorities, like protecting the lives of their citizens.
  • On the other hand, I don't feel that Israeli government is constructive i negotiations. In negotiations all sides need to be winners. You take some and you give some…
So, I would say that my short term sympathy is with Israel, but there is an underlying conflict that is in bad need of solving and the acting parties seem to have little interest in solving that (or any of those) conflict.

Best regards
Erik
Does it not occur to you that anti-Isaeli sentiment might be the result of Israel's actions over the past 60 years? In other words, a person can have some anti-Israeli sentiments without being biased against the country in any general way. One can also harbor anti- and pro-Israeli sentiments at the same time, as I have said before, it's foolish to get into the all-good or all-bad frame of mind, the world is almost always more complex.

As for being particularly interested in this conflict because Israel is involved, yes indeed and so what? That's the case with me. I have had an interest in Israel for decades and have always supported the existence and security of the country. OF COURSE I am going to take a greater interest than in a conflict where I have no emotional connection to the people involved. But, supporting Israel does not mean automatically supporting everything they do, and the fact that Israel is supposed to be the "good guys" makes it extra painful to me and many others when they engage in immoral, illegal, and vile actions. If you cannot understand that, there's nothing more I can say to you.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 09:45:47 am by ErikKaffehr »
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18208
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: Gaza's on-going Palestinian civilians Killing
« Reply #283 on: August 09, 2014, 11:40:42 am »

... Discussions about Gaza on a bulletin board dedicated to photography are pointless. They're not contrary to any rule, as this is the Coffee Corner; but they contribute nothing to the understanding of the problem or to its solution....The people who can affect what is happening, who can influence the course of events, aren't reading.
...
Actually, perhaps these discussions aren't entirely useless: their posts to this thread have led me substantially to alter my previously-held opinions of several contributors.

Seems like you figured it out yourself, Jeremy. Forum debates might be utterly pointless from the standpoint of solving the problem, but are quite useful for getting to know each other a little bit better. That is why we come here, to talk to each other, not to solve world problems.

Granted, there might be a few "usual suspects" who will peddle their "same old, same old," but every now and then comes a fact, link, quote, opinion, logic, etc. that I was unaware of, which then might expand my horizon.

As someone already pointed out, rarely, if ever, are things in life black and white. For instance, saying "Israel is wrong" is just as wrong as saying "Israel is right." The level of abstraction and generalization is just too high. The devil is, as usual, in the details. When forum debates bring out those details, they might expand horizons for some of us. And that would be a reason sufficient enough to justify the debate.

jjj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4705
    • http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com
Re: Gaza's on-going Palestinian civilians Killing
« Reply #284 on: August 09, 2014, 03:36:46 pm »

Since a country is defined by its people more than by its geography or by its wines, and since the majority of people living in Israel are Jews, how is this supposed negative feeling against Israel different from a negative feeling against Jews, also known as antisemitism?
Easy, many Jews live in other countries. So you can loathe what Israel is up to whilst loving Jewish people who live elsewhere. One of my oldest friends is Jewish and lives in Wales, if he disapproves of Israel, does that make him an anti-semite too?
Thinking that disliking Israel's behaviour is automatically anti-semitic is like thinking someone is anti-white because they do not like what France is up to.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 03:38:45 pm by jjj »
Logged
Tradition is the Backbone of the Spinele

Manoli

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2359
Re: Gaza's on-going genocide
« Reply #285 on: August 09, 2014, 04:56:40 pm »

...  anti-Israeli sentiment: there's a lot of that about... 

Jeremy,

May I respectfully suggest that we avoid using the term 'anti-Israeli' as a synonym for opposition to the policies of the current Israeli government. It is quite wrong to confuse the views expressed by many, now referred to as 'liberal Zionists' ,  with the uncompromising policies actively pursued by the Netanyahu administration.

There are (and I stand to be corrected on the figures ) - 1,250 million muslims worldwide, the Jewish worldwide population is close to 14 million, of which the current Israeli population is about 8m – (6m are Jewish and 2m are Arab).  The right to vote is restricted to resident Israelis. Since the mid 90's this 8m includes more than 1.2m migrants from the former Soviet Union, who, in the words of The Economist, '... have scant democratic tradition; many seek salvation in a strongman, a Jewish Putin, to rescue Israel from its enemies.'

Where popular trends persist, democratically elected politicians follow. An increase of almost 20% in the popular vote most certainly helped undermine the more reasoned voices in the centre in favour of the hard right, particularly as Israel refuses the vote to the remaining (worldwide) 6m.

I've quoted Roger Cohen before (#35), I'll quote him again – simply because his words so accurately reflect the views of my many non-Israeli, Jewish friends and acquaintances.

“ The Israeli case for the bombardment of Gaza could be foolproof. If Benjamin Netanyahu had made a good-faith effort to find common cause with Palestinian moderates for peace and been rebuffed, it would be. He has not. Hamas is vile. I would happily see it destroyed. But Hamas is also the product of a situation that Israel has reinforced rather than sought to resolve.

This corrosive Israeli exercise in the control of another people, breeding the contempt of the powerful for the oppressed, is a betrayal of the Zionism in which I still believe. ”


I'm a Christian, many of my friends are Jewish. I abhor this religious distinction as much as I abhor anti-semitism, indeed any racism - just as they do. But the hard reality is that today, the uncompromising, hard-line attitude of an administration voted in by 6m is fuelling the current rise in anti-semitism and breeding contagion throughout the West.

Rehashing and apportioning blame is not going to further the quest for peace. A different stance by both America and the West will.

Logged

Manoli

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2359
Re: Gaza's on-going genocide
« Reply #286 on: August 09, 2014, 05:20:53 pm »

Discussions about Gaza on a bulletin board dedicated to photography are pointless ...The people who can affect what is happening, who can influence the course of events, aren't reading.

Well, yes and no ...

" In the recent Gaza campaign, the government has co-opted universities to its war effort. Several have established “war rooms” with banks of computers where student volunteers use army talking-points to rebut social-media attacks. "

Logged

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13980
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: Gaza's on-going Palestinian civilians Killing
« Reply #287 on: August 09, 2014, 06:06:28 pm »

Easy, many Jews live in other countries. So you can loathe what Israel is up to whilst loving Jewish people who live elsewhere. One of my oldest friends is Jewish and lives in Wales, if he disapproves of Israel, does that make him an anti-semite too?
Thinking that disliking Israel's behaviour is automatically anti-semitic is like thinking someone is anti-white because they do not like what France is up to.

In that case your friend is not anti-Israel, he is critical of the actions of the Israeli government, right?

My guess would be that he isn't critical because these actions are carried out by Israel, but because of the nature of these actions.

My point isn't that criticizing Israel's actions makes you an antisemit, but that criticizing Israeli gov actions because they are Israeli, regardless of what these actions are, probably does. It is the latter I was accused of.

Cheers,
Bernard

jjj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4705
    • http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com
Re: Gaza's on-going Palestinian civilians Killing
« Reply #288 on: August 09, 2014, 08:03:19 pm »

In that case your friend is not anti-Israel, he is critical of the actions of the Israeli government, right?

My guess would be that he isn't critical because these actions are carried out by Israel, but because of the nature of these actions.
Do you think that because he's Jewish?

Quote
My point isn't that criticizing Israel's actions makes you an antisemit, but that criticizing Israeli gov actions because they are Israeli, regardless of what these actions are, probably does. It is the latter I was accused of.
When criticising Israel this sort of thing is an issue because people are way over sensitive due to Israel being mostly Jewish and heaven fordid we say or do anything that is critical of those who are Jewish. I think Israel and supporters are well aware of that and possibly take advantage of this tiptoeing around at times.
I am not an anti semite but am very critical of Israel's actions in some areas. These are not conflicting viewpoints at all. I critique Israel for it's specific behaviour not it's Jewishness, the former is fine, the latter anti-semitic.

I would however criticize Judaism itself for being bigoted though, my friend for example dared to marry outside of his family's faith and because he married 'beneath' him, members of his family never spoke to him again. He was treated as if he were dead/non-existant. If this was turned around there would be all hell to pay for what would be accurately regarded as anti-semitic behaviour. This attitude is certainly not unique to Judaism with honour killings being a far more extreme form of this behaviour.

Logged
Tradition is the Backbone of the Spinele

Schewe

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6231
    • http:www.schewephoto.com
Re: Gaza's on-going Palestinian civilians Killing
« Reply #289 on: August 09, 2014, 10:04:41 pm »

I would however criticize Judaism itself for being bigoted though, my friend for example dared to marry outside of his family's faith and because he married 'beneath' him, members of his family never spoke to him again.

And how do you real about radical Islam proclaiming Muslims are duty bound to kill all infidels? That's a bit more radical that turning their backs on somebody who marries outside of their religion, don't ya think? Note, for the purposes of this discussion, Hamas should be considered a radical Islamic terrorist group.
Logged

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13980
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: Gaza's on-going Palestinian civilians Killing
« Reply #290 on: August 09, 2014, 10:46:27 pm »

Do you think that because he's Jewish?

No, I don't.

This isn't about who is expressing an opinion. This is about the nature of the opinion being expressed and about how this nature is characterized.

Cheers,
Bernard

mezzoduomo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 349
Re: Gaza's on-going Palestinian civilians Killing
« Reply #291 on: August 09, 2014, 11:48:51 pm »

I would however criticize Judaism itself for being bigoted though, my friend for example dared to marry outside of his family's faith and because he married 'beneath' him, members of his family never spoke to him again. He was treated as if he were dead/non-existant....

Are you seriously going to cite the experience of one friend, and draw conclusions about Judaism? I suppose I could similarly conclude that blacks are bigoted because 'my friend' who is black caught hell from his family for marrying a white woman.
Logged

Manoli

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2359
Re: Gaza's on-going Palestinian civilians Killing
« Reply #292 on: August 10, 2014, 04:54:53 am »

Note, for the purposes of this discussion, Hamas should be considered a radical Islamic terrorist group.

Yes, they should.

So were the IRA, a terrorist group. Yet now they sit in the British parliament and Stormont (or rather the political wing, Sinn Fein, do). You may well recall that the IRA were largely funded by the USA.

As The Times, today reports :

‘We were dying anyway. What else could we do but fight?’

Despite the devastation in Gaza, Hamas fighters are being hailed as heroes by Palestinians who were already living in poverty and squalor : during a month of vicious combat with Israel’s vastly superior forces, more than 1,900 Palestinians — many of them civilians — have been killed and 10,000 wounded. Entire neighbourhoods lie in ruin; at least 65,000 people are without homes.


Win the hearts and minds of the moderates and the radicals will fail.

Logged

stamper

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5882
Re: Gaza's on-going Palestinian civilians Killing
« Reply #293 on: August 10, 2014, 05:40:12 am »

Manoli, well said. :)

jjj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4705
    • http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com
Re: Gaza's on-going Palestinian civilians Killing
« Reply #294 on: August 10, 2014, 06:24:03 am »

And how do you real about radical Islam proclaiming Muslims are duty bound to kill all infidels? That's a bit more radical that turning their backs on somebody who marries outside of their religion, don't ya think? Note, for the purposes of this discussion, Hamas should be considered a radical Islamic terrorist group.
Try reading all the post and not selectively quoting out of context - I mentioned other religions even more intolerant behaviour.
Besides just because someone else behaves in an even worse way, this does not affect the point I was making that Judaism itself can be bigoted.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2014, 06:40:42 am by jjj »
Logged
Tradition is the Backbone of the Spinele

stamper

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5882
Re: Gaza's on-going Palestinian civilians Killing
« Reply #295 on: August 10, 2014, 06:27:08 am »

Edinburgh, Scotland, 09 August, on a windy but warm sunny day. A demonstration in support of Palestine. Nearly 1,000 take to the streets. The message is loud and clear that the Uk should stop supplying armaments to Israel to kill innocent men, women and children.

Damon Lynch

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 323
    • http://www.damonlynch.net
Re: Gaza's on-going Palestinian civilians Killing
« Reply #296 on: August 10, 2014, 06:29:07 am »

And how do you real about radical Islam proclaiming Muslims are duty bound to kill all infidels? That's a bit more radical that turning their backs on somebody who marries outside of their religion, don't ya think? Note, for the purposes of this discussion, Hamas should be considered a radical Islamic terrorist group.

Religious extremism is found in each of the three major monotheistic traditions. In each of them we can obscene views about those outside the faith. Anyone who has spent time on the ground doing inter-religious work in the region knows this. Likewise it's easy to find within these religions a call to recognize the common humanity of all, the golden rule, the divine root of human existence, etc., which is why I'm not at all shy to say I'm religious myself. As for any argument that Islam is somehow more violent than Judaism or Christianity, such an argument must account for the reality that the world's most well organized nonviolent fighting force was deeply Islamic.

People whose job it is to provide actual security to their people, and not sell newspapers or win elections, know that Hamas is not a one-dimensional organization.  The former Mossad director Ephraim Halevy stated to the Israeli cabinet in 2008 "The Hamas leadership has recognized that its ideological goal is not attainable and will not be in the foreseeable future. They are ready and willing to see the establishment of a Palestinian state in the temporary borders of 1967. . . . They know that the moment a Palestinian state is established with their cooperation, they will be obligated to change the rules of the game. They will have to adopt a path that could lead them far from their original ideological goals."

The Harvard scholar Sara Roy is an expert on Gaza and Hamas. She argues against analysis of Hamas that it is "an insular, one-dimensional and seemingly mindless entity dedicated solely to violence, terrorism and Israel’s destruction." She writes "While there can be no doubt that since its inception in 1987, Hamas has engaged in violence, armed struggle, and terrorism as the primary force behind the horrific suicide bombings inside Israel, it is also a broad-based movement that has evolved into an increasingly complex, varied, and sophisticated organization engaged in a variety of societal activities vital to Palestinian life. Hamas’s evolution has been most dramatic with regard to its ideology, organizational structure, role in Palestinian society, and perceived goals--its limitations notwithstanding."

In sum, calling Hamas a "radical Islamic terrorist group" and leaving it at that is about has helpful as calling Begin and Shamir lifelong terrorists. They were both terrorists at one point. They were also Israeli Prime Ministers later on. Neither Hamas or these two men deserve to be reduced to caricatures.

My Israeli friend Gershon Baskin has negotiated at length with Hamas. Gershon is on the right in the photo below (his Palestinian friend Hanna Siniora is on the left), which I took in Jerusalem in 2005.  He writes "Hamas has never agreed to a 2 state solution. Mashal has spoken about a Palestinian state in 1967 borders with no peace with Israel or recognition of Israel and continuing to maintain that all of Palestine from the river to the sea will become Palestine. For Hamas and for Mashal the occupation did not begin in 1967 it began in 1948 and that is what everyone in Hamas calls Sderot and Kiryat Gat and Tel Aviv settlements. When they talk about ending the occupation, they mean ending Israel." He  adds "For the purpose of accuracy and integrity it must be noted that no Gov of Israel has ever agreed to a 2 states solution, not yet at least." He also notes "The Camp David proposal was never voted on by a Government of Israel, it was in a process of negotiations and it consisted of a very partially sovereign Palestinian state on 89% of the West Bank with 2 East West Israeli controlled corridors and Israeli control of all of the external borders -- a kind of sovereign cage, almost nothing in Jerusalem, and there were only 6 hours of discussions on refugees with no proposals at all. A largely unfinished process that both sides agreed to continue negotiating on. From the end of Camp David in July 2000 until Taba in January 2001 the parties held another 52 negotiating meetings. without reaching an agreement."

We must also note, Likud "has *never* in its statements of principles, accepted a Palestinian State". Likud's platform puts it in black and white: "The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river."

In sum, both Hamas and Likud take maximilalist positions, each wanting a state with borders that excludes the Other. But political reality, both on the ground and internationally, constrains their ideological visions. That is the reality that we who want peace must deal with too. Both sides have violent extremists who want to wipe each other out. Both sides have those who prefer to negotiate and ultimately coexist.

Gershon argues "There is only one solution to [this war] which has a good outcome for all of the peoples engaged and most of the leaders as well -- a political solution which deals with the security issues, the economic issues and the political issues. Palestine must be a free, economically viable state living in peace with its neighbors. A non-militarized Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza with its capital in Palestinian Jerusalem, with agreed security arrangements with Israel, negotiated and agreed borders, a fair agreed solution to the refugee problem, full mutual recognition of the two states for two peoples solution, with regional security accords, and recognition of Israel by its neighbors -- this is the solution which must emerge from this war. It starts with Israeli acceptance of the Arab Peace Initiative as the basis of negotiations with the Palestinians and the Arab world."

I agree with Gershon, but I think the role of religion and culture is also critical. The gap between the religious and those of a more secular bent on both sides can be vast.
Logged

jjj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4705
    • http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com
Re: Gaza's on-going Palestinian civilians Killing
« Reply #297 on: August 10, 2014, 06:35:50 am »

Are you seriously going to cite the experience of one friend, and draw conclusions about Judaism? I suppose I could similarly conclude that blacks are bigoted because 'my friend' who is black caught hell from his family for marrying a white woman.
Don't be so stupidly literal, do you not know anything about Judaism? It is a specific example of a 'normal' type of behaviour that I happen to have first hand experience of. I wasn't at all surprised when he was ostracised as that is what usually happens if you marry a non-Jew. Even in this case with his family being very non-orthodox. Other friends have converted to Judaism to be able to get married without getting their betrothed kicked out by their family.
Logged
Tradition is the Backbone of the Spinele

jjj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4705
    • http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com
Re: Gaza's on-going Palestinian civilians Killing
« Reply #298 on: August 10, 2014, 06:55:49 am »

In sum, calling Hamas a "radical Islamic terrorist group" and leaving it at that is about has helpful as calling Begin and Shamir lifelong terrorists. They were both terrorists at one point. They were also Israeli Prime Ministers later on. Neither Hamas or these two men deserve to be reduced to caricatures.
The founding fathers of the US were probably viewed as terrorists by the British as were many, many 'freedom fighters' who eventually ended up in charge.
'Terrorist' is a label normally used to vilify the other side, 'Freedom Fighter' is the label for those you support.

I would restrict the term 'terrorist' to those who had the option of settling things by means other than that killing non-combatants and who choose not to do so.
Logged
Tradition is the Backbone of the Spinele

mezzoduomo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 349
Re: Gaza's on-going Palestinian civilians Killing
« Reply #299 on: August 10, 2014, 10:19:21 am »

Don't be so stupidly literal, do you not know anything about Judaism? It is a specific example of a 'normal' type of behaviour that I happen to have first hand experience of. I wasn't at all surprised when he was ostracised as that is what usually happens if you marry a non-Jew. Even in this case with his family being very non-orthodox. Other friends have converted to Judaism to be able to get married without getting their betrothed kicked out by their family.


Actually, I know a great deal about Judaism. I grew up in a neighborhood in a little town in New Jersey that was about 1/3 Jewish, so....I remain in informed disagreement with your assertion (Judaism is bigoted). Individuals certainly are or are not bigoted, and I stand by my assertion that you went too far in generalizing from specifics.

P.S.: Personal attacks are not appreciated, Sir.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 13 14 [15] 16 17 ... 20   Go Up