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Author Topic: HD-709A compared to Adobe RGB 1998  (Read 32000 times)

Lundberg02

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HD-709A compared to Adobe RGB 1998
« on: July 24, 2014, 12:29:29 am »

I have been googling for what seems like days and getting nowhere.  The only comparison I can make is in ColorSync Utility> Profiles. If I set aRGB to hold for comparison and click on HD-709A I get something that looks like about 75% of aRGB.  But the 709 and the sRGB are alleged to have the same primaries. If I click on SM170 or sRGB I get a smaller gamut than 709. HD-709A is supposed to be the output profile for Apple computers to provide HDMI. Is it supposed to be anywhere close to aRGB?
I have a new Dell U2413. I set it to use factory Adobe RGB. I see that colors are brighter than my old Dell 2320L sRGB. When I go to Preferences> Displays on my Mac I see that it is using HD-709A. Dell claims that the U2413 is 99% of of Adobe RGB. Not according to ColorSync, it ain't.
I feel like I have been lied to by Dell, or I'm missing something vital in this whole thing.
HD-709A and SM170A only showed up in my profiles list after I fired up the new Dell, so it seems to me that it put them there and the OS decided to use HD-709A when it communicated with the monitor choice of color space.
The more I get into color and devices, the more i see how utterly and totally screwed up everything is. It's like my old days in the defense business. If the print is right, it wasn't built to print. If it was built to print, the print is wrong. Now there's 4k and 8k and new cinema gamuts, and monitor builders are still cutting corners on the old stuff.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 01:03:53 am by Lundberg02 »
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D Fosse

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Re: HD-709A compared to Adobe RGB 1998
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2014, 05:13:23 am »

I don't know why you bother with the HD 709A profile, which appears to be a generic profile intended for use with TV sets. The name implies that it's based on Rec 709, which is an old broadcast standard, with sRGB primaries, D65 white point, but a 2.4 gamma.

All you ever need is a custom display profile that describes your U2413, made with a calibrator. That profile can be built on any of the monitor's presets (as long as it stays on that preset), but it's always best to set the monitor to native/custom. This uses the full gamut of the display without any limitations.

The U2413 more or less covers Adobe RGB. But that's not important as such, it doesn't have to match. The profile describes the monitor as it is, with its native gamut.

Quote
The more I get into color and devices, the more i see how utterly and totally screwed up everything is

Don't let red herrings like the HD 709 profile confuse you. Just forget that. You only need to keep your eye on two profiles - the embedded document profile, and the display profile. These two constitute a complete chain.

And equivalent for print - document profile > printer/paper profile.
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Lundberg02

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Re: HD-709A compared to Adobe RGB 1998
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2014, 08:52:35 pm »

It's much more f___ up than that. My Mac mini only has an HDMI port unless you use an adapter from Thunderbolt to DVI. DVI allows you to use the Dell's Adobe RGB profile or use the calibrate color space setting to create a profile. Using the HDMI port restricts the mini to 709, unless you use a very geeky  Force RGB Terminal fix.
I wasn't getting anywhere googling, so I wrote to Brock Brandenberg of bergdesign.com and he quickly replied with a full explanation. So now I'll get an adapter from Monoprice and, voila! Adobe RGB will light up.
I am pretty happy with the Dell U2413. The ergonomics are excellent. I have never seen a monitor with an up down adjustment and this one is unbelievable. Perfectly balanced in the slide, you just gently move it up and down. Dell is very Windows oriented, so it's not unexpected that they wouldn't warn Mac users about HDMI.
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D Fosse

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Re: HD-709A compared to Adobe RGB 1998
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2014, 07:53:57 am »

OK. This is the first I've heard that the choice of output port determines which display profiles are available. I still don't understand why that should be, but I've mostly been on Windows. I did run an Eizo Foris through HDMI once, as secondary display, but there wasn't any problem with calibration or display profiles.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: HD-709A compared to Adobe RGB 1998
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2014, 05:15:38 pm »

It's much more f___ up than that. My Mac mini only has an HDMI port unless you use an adapter from Thunderbolt to DVI. DVI allows you to use the Dell's Adobe RGB profile or use the calibrate color space setting to create a profile. Using the HDMI port restricts the mini to 709, unless you use a very geeky  Force RGB Terminal fix.
I wasn't getting anywhere googling, so I wrote to Brock Brandenberg of bergdesign.com and he quickly replied with a full explanation. So now I'll get an adapter from Monoprice and, voila! Adobe RGB will light up.
I am pretty happy with the Dell U2413. The ergonomics are excellent. I have never seen a monitor with an up down adjustment and this one is unbelievable. Perfectly balanced in the slide, you just gently move it up and down. Dell is very Windows oriented, so it's not unexpected that they wouldn't warn Mac users about HDMI.

I've noticed similar quirky issues using direct HDMI on my 2010 Mac Mini connected to the HDMI port on my LG 27ea63 but nothing having to do with accessing or dealing with ICC profiles or the system built default "Display" profile, but my LG is sRGB anyway. I know certain features get turned on/off within the LG OSD menu whether I use HDMI>DVI adapter vs direct HDMI one of which is black level which produces crushed blacks no display calibrator can fix. HDMI>DVI which I'm currently using fixes this. When I connect my LG to my TWC TV cable box by direct HDMI it's calibrated perfectly (to my eyes) out of the box to render HD709. I've never seen TV broadcast color look this good without having to fiddle with tone/color adjusts.

Yeah, Brock is really good at returning emails quickly. Could you share what he told you about HDMI?

It's seem something of a black hole as standards are concerned because we're getting into this strange territory where computer video/display calibration clashes with broadcast standards. It would be informative to know what's going on because there are others in other online discussions who have had odd compatibility issues narrowed down to HDMI mysteries some of which were solved using an older or newer HDMI cable that adhered to certain standards. ::)
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Lundberg02

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Re: HD-709A compared to Adobe RGB 1998
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2014, 06:56:30 pm »

Yes, I'll c/p what he said  below. The problem with HD-709A itself is that it has a compromise green primary that is not the same as sRGB, and that it's dynamic range is restricted to values between 16 and 235.  I have purchased a minidisplayport to DVI adapter from Monoprice  (9 bucks) which will arrive in a few days and Brock assured me that it would take care of my problem. I'll probably hook up my old Dell as a second monitor using the HDMI and it won't matter what space it's in.

<
Ah, the wonderful 709 issue. This one’s due to the HDMI connection which I wish Apple would just remove from the machines. It’s fine to temporarily watch a DVD on an external display, but it sucks for regular work because the display is treated like a movie screen and not like a computer monitor. Here’s a blog post for some reading:

http://www.ireckon.net/2013/03/force-rgb-mode-in-mac-os-x-to-fix-the-picture-quality-of-an-external-monitor

My suggestion is not to go through gyrations listed there, but to instead the to ditch the HDMI connection and use the Display Port (mini or regular, based on which cable you have… they’re identical functionality and only vary in size) or the DVI-D port. You may have to get another cable or adaptor, but it will be worth it. Check Monoprice.com for an adaptor if you need one since they’re insanely cheap there. I don’t remember which machine you have, but most newer machines have a DisplayPort and that’s the one I’d recommend using since no adapter is needed. It’s simply a straight Mini Display Port cable or a mini-to-regular cable like this:

http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=102&cp_id=10246&cs_id=1024606&p_id=6007&seq=1&format=2

Here’s the full list of Display Port items with various cables in various lengths, including the mini-to-mini cables too:

http://www.monoprice.com/Search/Index?keyword=display+port

Once you buy from Monoprice, you won’t go anywhere else  And the connection will make a huge difference since you’re locked into the 709 gamut problem right now. Once you see the monitor in the full Adobe RGB space, you’ll be pleasantly shocked >
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: HD-709A compared to Adobe RGB 1998
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2014, 03:15:08 am »

My LG is not a wide gamut display so I have no issues with sRGB or calibration and it only has HDMI, VGA & DVI connects. I'm not having any color or calibration problems with my DVI>2010 Mac Mini HDMI cable.

But I was wondering if there are any screen quality improvements connecting my LG DVI to Mac Mini MiniDisplayPort, but no one yet has provided specifics on this.
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Lundberg02

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Re: HD-709A compared to Adobe RGB 1998
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2014, 06:19:08 pm »

From what Brock says, you would get true sRGB and better blacks and whites.
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Lundberg02

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Re: HD-709A compared to Adobe RGB 1998
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2014, 03:32:24 am »

My Dell U2413 is now hooked up from the Mac mini Thunderbolt port (miniDisplayPort) through a MDP to DVI adapter to the Dell's DVI and is looking good. I connected my older Dell to the HDMI output, for a dual monitor setup. I'm struggling with a difference in blue of my desktop image, and may have to go back to Brock for advice. I really never realized how handy two monitors would be, and I can see why some guys have more than that.  The Adobe RGB gamut is quite noticeably brighter and more saturated. The monitor itself is so bright I had to crank it down to 20 in my dark surroundings.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: HD-709A compared to Adobe RGB 1998
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2014, 07:39:57 am »

The Adobe RGB gamut is quite noticeably brighter and more saturated. The monitor itself is so bright I had to crank it down to 20 in my dark surroundings.

If you're using Brock's SuperCal eyeball calibrator, I'ld suggest you get a real measuring device like a ColorMunki Display to find the cause of the display differences to compare apples to apples. From what I've read about my copy of SuperCal is that the XYZ colorants used to build the matrices within the final ICC display profile are derived from the factory numbers embedded in the EDID chip of the display. Those numbers were created at the factory by measuring the display under unknown settings most likely at default which can be quite bright.

Since you are making severe adjustments to luminance and most likely contrast, it makes those EDID numbers not so accurate. Think of it as something similar to what happens to saturation and hue applying a brightness and contrast edit in Photoshop to a color image. Not so linear behavior wouldn't you say?

Also I believe Mac OS desktop images are color managed so if you had accurate ICC profiles for each display loaded then you shouldn't be seeing any differences assuming your desktop image is tagged with an ICC profile as well.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2014, 07:44:36 am by Tim Lookingbill »
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Lundberg02

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Re: HD-709A compared to Adobe RGB 1998
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2014, 05:32:14 pm »

No disrespect to SuperCal, but I don't think I'm going to use it on the 2413 just yet. The factory cal report I got with it looks very good. I need to get the bottom of why the visible blues are different but the screenshots are identical. The old monitor now looks a bit purple.
I hear you about the desktop images, but I'm not sure where they are to see what profiles they have.  Edit: They're in Macintosh HD/Library/Desktop Pictures.
I revisited the brightness and contrast, and set brt 20 and contr 70 which seems ok now. The older monitor needs to be tamed a bit now by comparison.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2014, 05:52:13 pm by Lundberg02 »
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D Fosse

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Re: HD-709A compared to Adobe RGB 1998
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2014, 07:09:16 am »

Lundberg, you seem to be sufficiently concerned about this that you should really get an i1 Display Pro.

What you need is a display profile that accurately describes the display, end of story. If that description is accurate, blues and all other colors will reproduce accurately as long as they're within gamut. If it isn't, as is apparently the case now, they won't. Only a calibrator will get you there. The Dell profile is a hoax - they say each unit is "individually calibrated" - in reality what they do is stick a probe at the center of the screen to see if it's within shouting distance of 6500K. That's the extent of Dell's post-assembly quality control.

The reason you should get the i1 and not the Munki, is that Dell provides software for hardware calibration on their site, free download. But only the i1D3 sensor is supported. The software is made by x-rite, BTW.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 07:13:35 am by D Fosse »
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: HD-709A compared to Adobe RGB 1998
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2014, 04:12:48 pm »

I just tried out the MiniDisplay Port to DVI adapter made by Apple on my LG27 sRGB-ish display and calibrated it with my ColorMunki Display. No difference over using the Apple supplied HDMI to DVI adapter. Same sRGB-ish gamut ICC profile generated.

I'll be returning the MDP adapter back to my local Best Buy.
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digitaldog

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Re: HD-709A compared to Adobe RGB 1998
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2014, 04:29:08 pm »

The only comparison I can make is in ColorSync Utility> Profiles. If I set aRGB to hold for comparison and click on HD-709A I get something that looks like about 75% of aRGB.  But the 709 and the sRGB are alleged to have the same primaries.
The gamut plot is probably wrong:
http://www.colorwiki.com/wiki/Color_Management_Myths_26-28#Myth_26
Especially if they have the same primaries.
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Lundberg02

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Re: HD-709A compared to Adobe RGB 1998
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2014, 06:09:18 pm »

I'll take the comment about Dell calibration under consideration. They send you a sheet with a lot of data. TFTCentral doesn't have anything bad to say about Dell cal, except that it could be done better  using their methods.  The Dell i1Display Pro procedure is intended for Windows, but I believe it can be done on a Mac as i1 has a Mac version now.  Not really too concerned.
I have pretty much resolved the problem with the blue of the desktop image. Screen shots of the same area on both monitors are identical on the 2413, and on the 2320 as well although more purple. What has happened is that the 2320 has developed a faint pink cast in the backlight. The 2413 is IPS, and the 2320 is probably TN, I'll have to look it up.
Thanks for the link, dd. The 2413 profile supplied by Dell overlays the Adobe 1998 to within an events. I usually rotate around to check the full coverage.
I have both monitors looking similar as far as brightness and contrast now although the settings differ, and I'll just live with the pink cast which is not important for its new intended use. That can't be calibrated out.
Tim did you look to see whether the HDMI to DVI adapter magically changed the profile from HD-709A to sRGB?
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: HD-709A compared to Adobe RGB 1998
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2014, 01:31:44 am »


I have both monitors looking similar as far as brightness and contrast now although the settings differ, and I'll just live with the pink cast which is not important for its new intended use. That can't be calibrated out.
Tim did you look to see whether the HDMI to DVI adapter magically changed the profile from HD-709A to sRGB?

If you're referring to the default profile that's loaded as the system profile changing from HD709A to sRGB, the answer is no. When I changed adapters the default system profile is switched to a simple matrix ICC profile with the name of my display embedded with the EDID derived colorant/WP XYZ numbers only without RGB neutrality correction curves loaded (vcgt). The 3D gamut plots between this simple default system and ColorMunki custom profile are slightly different but extend beyond sRGB in greens, yellows, reds.

Regarding your pink cast I do remember back when I was calibrating a second monitor (Dell 2209WA) attached to my iMac in OS X Tiger only one RGB WP correction curve could occupy the graphics card even though the system will load both vcgt, matrices and profile names and be recognized by color managed apps individually. When dragging a tagged image between the two displays in Photoshop only the matrices that influence hue/sat would update since gamma was identical.

That's why I chose the iMac's screen as the main display which required a severe WP correction curve embedded in the profile to arrive at 6500K because the native WP was too greenish yellow due to the aging iMac screen. I left the Dell at native WP (no custom WP in calibration software) and adjusted RGB gains in its OSD menu to match the calibrated iMac with custom WP. I could've switched to having the Dell as main display but it would cause eyestrain having to adjust to the greenish yellow iMac since it doesn't have RGB gain adjusts.

Since only one custom WP embedded in the ICC profile can occupy the graphics card, I'ld suggest you set both displays WP to native (no custom WP in software) and adjust RGB gains on both to get them to match between the two to get rid of the pink cast on one. Or you could let the software choose its definition of 6500K WP for one display and adjust the other's RGB gains to match it.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2014, 01:35:48 am by Tim Lookingbill »
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Lundberg02

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Re: HD-709A compared to Adobe RGB 1998
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2014, 06:25:58 pm »

That is very interesting, Tim. I think you have explained the problem.  I could swear the old monitor did not have a pink cast when it was the only one being used. I had been thinking that I was only seeing it now because of the side by side comparison.
Another color management gotcha to add to the 39 myths or whatever the number was.
I'll have to reread your post after my dental anesthetic wears off to make sure I get it fully.
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Lundberg02

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Re: HD-709A compared to Adobe RGB 1998
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2014, 02:03:38 am »

Turns out the 2320 doesn't have color temp per se. I fooled around and got the purple out of the galaxy background, but the 2014PrinterTestFileFlat.tif still has light pink faces. Im going to quit while I'm ahead for now.
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hjulenissen

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Re: HD-709A compared to Adobe RGB 1998
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2014, 03:12:39 am »

The problem with HD-709A itself is that it has a compromise green primary that is not the same as sRGB, and that it's dynamic range is restricted to values between 16 and 235. 
Video standards tends to use a restricted range where the whitepoint and blackpoint is defined at 235 and 16. I don't think that this is a significant problem in itself (219 codes vs 256 codes), but non-ideal conversions between two slightly different (small-ish) integer representations might be a cause of concern for high-quality applications.

I believe that many non-professional devices (i.e. computer displays) will do far worse things to your signal internally (using a 6-bit native panel for instance).

-h
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Lundberg02

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Re: HD-709A compared to Adobe RGB 1998
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2014, 04:48:29 pm »

Yes, my Inovision monitor for my 2009 Mac mini is a native 6 bit with FRC.
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