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Author Topic: Pentax 645Z  (Read 175759 times)

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #300 on: April 27, 2014, 06:30:35 pm »

but, imo the main issue is pretty long synchro time 1/125s

Maybe they made a trade-off between high synchronization speed with shutter-vibration at all shutter-speeds, versus higher ISO ...?

Cheers,
Bart
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #301 on: April 27, 2014, 07:40:50 pm »

eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #302 on: April 27, 2014, 08:58:36 pm »

Tom,

 Yes, indeed, thank you for the entertainment. There is an endearing earnestness in this text, very different from the usual "we are the best" shout of Phase and Hassy advertising.

 "Barely affordable" would be a good pricing description, and in fact that is the way I think most people felt about the pre-digital Hasselblad.
Edmund

Edmond:

Given your often expressed opinions of P1/H pricing, you may find the following entertaining.  Taken from the engineers' comments on Ricoh's 645Z Special Page:

"Thus, we decided to release PENTAX 645Z as a new flagship model in 2014 to call attention to its superiority in image quality overwhelming 35-mm full frame cameras. As for the price, the price range of medium format digital cameras was 3 to 4 million yen, which is hardly payable, but PENTAX 645D was put on sale at the barely reasonable price of 800,000 yen, making an impossible dream come true."

The whole site is worth a look.  It's an obvious translation of the original Japanese text.  Somewhat refreshing in its lack of the typical advertising smoothness.

http://www.camera-pentax.jp/645z/en/

Tom
« Last Edit: April 27, 2014, 09:30:11 pm by eronald »
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Telecaster

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #303 on: April 27, 2014, 11:29:38 pm »

Yes, indeed, thank you for the entertainment. There is an endearing earnestness in this text, very different from the usual "we are the best" shout of Phase and Hassy advertising.

"Barely affordable" would be a good pricing description, and in fact that is the way I think most people felt about the pre-digital Hasselblad.

There's always translation nuance to consider. "Barely affordable" could as easily be translated as "just affordable," which conveys the same information but with a more positive tone.   ;)

-Dave-
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eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #304 on: April 28, 2014, 12:11:36 am »

There's always translation nuance to consider. "Barely affordable" could as easily be translated as "just affordable," which conveys the same information but with a more positive tone.   ;)

-Dave-

Dave,

My japanese ability, actually my western brain, is not capable of understanding the subtext and nuance that could be conveyed in that language.

Their japanese sentence is different - I did look at it. However, their english version sentence is "As for the price, the price range of medium format digital cameras was 3 to 4 million yen, which is hardly payable, but PENTAX 645D was put on sale at the barely reasonable price of 800,000 yen, making an impossible dream come true. "

I think they stress that they had an unreasonably low aimpoint. Japanese are very strong on explaining that a job was undertaken after a long and careful discussion where consensus was reached on the difficult issues being difficult and it was resolved that each would do his part ... so the text here might convey that the project lead proposed and management accepted a low profit margin, and engineering a low BOM, whereby the company could create an innovative entry-level product for a class of consumer who had no access to MF at that point in time. What the subtext is and for whom it is intended, I have no way of imagining, with my western brain and no local knowledge.

Edmund
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 02:03:11 am by eronald »
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MrSmith

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #305 on: April 28, 2014, 05:15:38 am »

slightly on topic but i didn’t think worthy of it’s own thread.
what about Fuji? they make some of the H/blad body and the lenses and have their own expertise in MF would they throw their hat in the ring with a cheaper MFD option?
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bcooter

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #306 on: April 28, 2014, 07:13:10 am »

I'll let you in on a little secret.

Even in today's squeezed  economy professional or photo loving enthusiast, regardless of what people write, cost isn't always the driving factor for using a certain camera.

Sometimes not even usability.

Not just in the still world, same with cinema, where mega (well use to be mega) budgets prevail.    The Panasonic gh4 won't kill off or be used for anything big other than a rotocopter, RED didn't kill off Arri and the price difference of those machines runs, 4 grand to 40 grand to 80 large.

I know cats working on budget squeezed productions that will beg the underline producer to rent certain lenses at a trillion dollars a week because they love that look, even though the color will be performed by some guy that's pulling minimum wage on an Imac.

The Pentax is probably a good camera, the seeseedee version I wanted to buy, I liked it,  but it had a small buffer and it wouldn't tether.

The New Pentax will probably fix some or most of this, other than it's seemos which isn't my brand of digital film, but don't think Phase, or Hasselblad, or Leica is going to put a closed sign on the window because Pentax announced something at a lower price.

For one The Pentax has no juice in the pro world.   There is little if anything in rentals, no planned service outside of Japan and by the time you buy two of them so you have a backup, change out all of your lenses, your talking about 35k in costs and if your a phase, leica or blad owner and have a set of lenses and know the system, you can spend 25 to 35 for a seemos camera, not have to learn any new menus, or be forced to buy an English to Japanese App to get service.

Now I personally think any still camera that is over 15 large is too much, but hey, people are gonna buy the 35 gazillion dollar Phase because they like them, like their dealers and one thing about Phase and Blad and Leica is they'll last longer than the interior decoration of the dmv.

I also personally know that in the new world of the professional webographer 89.76% of every pro photograph is shot with a Nikon or Canon D something.   Nothing wrong with that, other than their pretty generic in look though they do about anything up to the level of pretty good.

The crazy thing is Pentax has always made interesting stuff.  Strange but interesting.  I mean who would make a 645 film camera where the back wouldn't remove, or a super sized 35mm camera that took 220 roll film and had so much going for it other than the flash sync was measured by an abacas, it took a team of brain surgeons to load it fast and it had so much mirror slap you could use it to simulate 4.6 tremors for Los Angeles bridge integrity.

But you gotta hand it to them.   They're building a 1/4 priced almost medium format camera in a world that has mobile phone in every pocket for the new "professional" thinks a big camera is a dee anything because the new definition of tumbler has gone from a glass that holds two fingers of 24 year old scotch to a way to show a portfolio to the world.

I wish Pentax well.

I wish all the camera makers well.

It's time for me to order another Leica S2.

IMO

BC


Gel

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #307 on: April 28, 2014, 11:45:48 am »

And this is true, it's 'almost' a medium format camera.

In fact anything with a 1.3x crop isn't a medium format camera imho. Call me out on that, but the big draw of Medium format is the size of the sensor.

I can see why Sony made these sensors first and can't wait to see the full frame offering in about 18 months.

Lacunapratum

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #308 on: April 28, 2014, 01:43:43 pm »

Hilarious post on Pentax's idiosyncrasies, Brian. 

... even though I liked the 645Nii for its removable inserts, durability, almost total lack of shutter and mirror vibration, and price, and did not feel limited by the lack of magazines.  Always thought the 645 film system was written off by far too many for the lack of magazines.  You could always either carry a second body (which I did and which was affordable) or if it was that important to change film, skip the rest of the film mid-roll and start with a new film.  For me, the 67ii worked well for its ability to handle fast lenses and telephotos, but your descriptions of its shortcomings was to the point. 

The 645Z seems to be the almost perfect camera, if you are willing to carry it around.  I used the 645D with the new 90mm macro on the weekend.  I was thinking if Pentax comes out with a few more killer lenses like the 25mm and the 90mm, it'll be a  dream system.  And now you have almost three types of lens options:  those very new lenses (expensive), a return of the existing FA lenses, and inexpensive used lenses which are still available in good shape. 

Haven't used Leica and Hasselblad though.  Two medium format systems (Pentax and Rollei) are enough, especially with the 645Z around the corner and plenty of wonderful Schneider glass for the Hy6.  The Leica would tempt me, because of its design and its lenses, if I wasn't too invested in the other two already.  Phase never really interested me because of the Mamiya bodies it comes with, but they have made some nice lenses recently.  A new body would be good for them.  And for me, some Phase dealer interactions have been less than desirable, at best.  And with all of those Sony rebadges, Hasselblad as a company certainly has lost much of its appeal for me.  Happy Rollei (DHW) is still keeping things going and Pentax is going strong!
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eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #309 on: April 28, 2014, 02:49:38 pm »

And this is true, it's 'almost' a medium format camera.

In fact anything with a 1.3x crop isn't a medium format camera imho. Call me out on that, but the big draw of Medium format is the size of the sensor.

I can see why Sony made these sensors first and can't wait to see the full frame offering in about 18 months.

C'mon, one can guess that upsized versions of this chip in backs from P1 and H will drop at Photokina. Especially aerial photography wants both resolution and ISO, desperately; repro wants liveview and resolution; both can be delivered by *large* CMOS chips, and there are a bunch of P&H buyers who just want the latest and greatest whatever it is ...

Edmund
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 03:53:56 pm by eronald »
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eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #310 on: April 28, 2014, 11:48:08 pm »

Ah, I see you like'er :)
Well, at least guys who meet a new girl don't have to look for a twin of her before they can get married :)

Edmund



I'll let you in on a little secret.

It's time for me to order another Leica S2.

IMO

BC




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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #311 on: April 29, 2014, 12:40:36 am »

Hi,

I am not sure about Sony making larger size sensor, time will show. Obviously, Sony can make the 1.3X crop chips at reasonable cost, else Pentax would not be able to make the 645Z at low price. So it is quite probable that they can make larger sensors at still reasonable cost. Bodes well for your MFD project!

Best regards
Erik

C'mon, one can guess that upsized versions of this chip in backs from P1 and H will drop at Photokina. Especially aerial photography wants both resolution and ISO, desperately; repro wants liveview and resolution; both can be delivered by *large* CMOS chips, and there are a bunch of P&H buyers who just want the latest and greatest whatever it is ...

Edmund
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eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #312 on: April 29, 2014, 02:20:16 am »

Hi,

I am not sure about Sony making larger size sensor, time will show. Obviously, Sony can make the 1.3X crop chips at reasonable cost, else Pentax would not be able to make the 645Z at low price. So it is quite probable that they can make larger sensors at still reasonable cost. Bodes well for your MFD project!

Best regards
Erik


I somehow think that won't be for tomorrow :)
Guess I'll be starting to look at the electronics around august/september, but very possibly I will just play around with small sensors.

Edmund
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Paul2660

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #313 on: April 29, 2014, 08:25:38 am »

Hi,

I am not sure about Sony making larger size sensor, time will show. Obviously, Sony can make the 1.3X crop chips at reasonable cost, else Pentax would not be able to make the 645Z at low price. So it is quite probable that they can make larger sensors at still reasonable cost. Bodes well for your MFD project!

Best regards
Erik


It will be interesting to see if Sony does come out with a "full" frame 645 CMOS Chip, to me full frame is the size of the Current Dalsa chips in the IQ 60 and 80MP backs.  I realize that this is still not full frame 645. 

Dalsa has been quiet on this for a while but has been a partner with Phase One and others with CCD.  I was not able to find any CMOS technology by Dalsa for cameras, however considering their company size, I feel it's safe to assume they do make CMOS. 

Sony currently seems to have the magic for creating a high DR/high ISO chip set.  Seen first with the D800, and now in the 50MP sensor.  The reported capabilities of the Live View of the Sony chip is impressive and it seems so far that Phase One has done a good job in their Live View implementation.  Nikon did not do so well with theirs with the 36MP chips:

1.  Way too much noise in low light which makes low light focus very difficult
2.  Confusion on where the correct setting spot is for 100% view for focus as you can zoom past 100%

If the full frame CMOS MF chip comes from Dalsa, instead of Sony I will curious to see if all the same Dynamic range capabilities will be there along with the same amount of iso range.

I am also curious if the current 50MP chip from Sony has the same apparent segmentation, the lines for the read outs, that tend to cause centerfolding/tiling with the Dalsa full frame chips. 

Paul
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #314 on: April 29, 2014, 05:47:23 pm »

Hi,

According to DALSA they are making both CMOS and CCD.

It would be nice if someone developed an economical alternative to Phase backs. Edmund has some ambitions to try, I wish him good luck.

Best regards
Erik

It will be interesting to see if Sony does come out with a "full" frame 645 CMOS Chip, to me full frame is the size of the Current Dalsa chips in the IQ 60 and 80MP backs.  I realize that this is still not full frame 645. 

Dalsa has been quiet on this for a while but has been a partner with Phase One and others with CCD.  I was not able to find any CMOS technology by Dalsa for cameras, however considering their company size, I feel it's safe to assume they do make CMOS. 

Sony currently seems to have the magic for creating a high DR/high ISO chip set.  Seen first with the D800, and now in the 50MP sensor.  The reported capabilities of the Live View of the Sony chip is impressive and it seems so far that Phase One has done a good job in their Live View implementation.  Nikon did not do so well with theirs with the 36MP chips:

1.  Way too much noise in low light which makes low light focus very difficult
2.  Confusion on where the correct setting spot is for 100% view for focus as you can zoom past 100%

If the full frame CMOS MF chip comes from Dalsa, instead of Sony I will curious to see if all the same Dynamic range capabilities will be there along with the same amount of iso range.

I am also curious if the current 50MP chip from Sony has the same apparent segmentation, the lines for the read outs, that tend to cause centerfolding/tiling with the Dalsa full frame chips. 

Paul
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eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #315 on: April 29, 2014, 06:50:27 pm »

Hi,

According to DALSA they are making both CMOS and CCD.

It would be nice if someone developed an economical alternative to Phase backs. Edmund has some ambitions to try, I wish him good luck.

Best regards
Erik


My ambitions are at the usual dead stop. In August, I think I will start looking at interfacing a small CMOS sensor to see what the issues are.

Edmund
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BJL

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According to DALSA they are making both CMOS and CCD.
Yes, but apparently the CMOS sensors are only custom designs, and the site mentions no specific models while hinting at niches like "radiation hardened" and "wafer scale": this product list is all CCD despite the heading: http://www.teledynedalsa.com/imaging/products/sensors/selector/

Also, note the name Teledyne-Dalsa and look at what Teledyne's overall business is, and ditto for ON Semiconductor, new owner of the former Kodak sensor division.  Now more than ever, sensors for medium format cameras are a tiny part of what those sensor making operations are aimed at, not a driving force in their sensor development.

Ironically, Sony now seems far more focused on sensors for "normal photography" as opposed to technical and scientific imaging, if only because Sony provides such a large proportion of sensors for "normal photography" in everything from phones to SLRs, and digital photography innovation seems to be mostly "trickle up" from the higher volume, larger revenue mass market to the larger "niche formats", meaning 1" and up.   Sony has already worked with Phase One on the design of its 44x33mm 50MP CMOS sensor, and is even happy to work with a competitor like Olympus, designing and providing 4/3" format sensors that Sony has no use for in its own products.
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eronald

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Yes, but apparently the CMOS sensors are only custom designs, and the site mentions no specific models while hinting at niches like "radiation hardened" and "wafer scale": this product list is all CCD despite the heading: http://www.teledynedalsa.com/imaging/products/sensors/selector/

Also, note the name Teledyne-Dalsa and look at what Teledyne's overall business is, and ditto for ON Semiconductor, new owner of the former Kodak sensor division.  Now more than ever, sensors for medium format cameras are a tiny part of what those sensor making operations are aimed at, not a driving force in their sensor development.

Ironically, Sony now seems far more focused on sensors for "normal photography" as opposed to technical and scientific imaging, if only because Sony provides such a large proportion of sensors for "normal photography" in everything from phones to SLRs, and digital photography innovation seems to be mostly "trickle up" from the higher volume, larger revenue mass market to the larger "niche formats", meaning 1" and up.   Sony has already worked with Phase One on the design of its 44x33mm 50MP CMOS sensor, and is even happy to work with a competitor like Olympus, designing and providing 4/3" format sensors that Sony has no use for in its own products.

Sony is now the main supplier of sensors to the photographic industry, and makes a tidy profit from this component business.

Edmund
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kdphoto

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #318 on: July 29, 2014, 04:39:05 pm »

Just received the camera, it's wonderful!!
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BernardLanguillier

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Sony has already worked with Phase One on the design of its 44x33mm 50MP CMOS sensor.

Do we know for a fact that they worked together on this design? What would Sony have needed from Phaseone that they didn't know already?

My guess remains that the 50mp "MF" sensor is being produced only because Pentax committed to a large purchase for the 645Z, which made the part available for smaller players such as Phaseone and Hassy.

Cheers,
Bernard
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