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Author Topic: Pentax 645Z  (Read 175755 times)

henrikfoto

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #280 on: April 18, 2014, 07:39:00 pm »

Has it been done any test to compare the IQ from the last Pentax 645d to Hasselblad and Phase at similar
type sensor?
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BJL

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Yes, and if you recall we made a five-year bet two years ago about MF sensor prices; I'm not sure who's winning.  
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=65392.msg520976#msg520976
My prediction there for the successor of the 645D was:
Quote
I will go for the same 44x33mm format and a price about the same or modestly lower ...
That still sounds about right, with the 645Z being priced at about current 646D pricing and 15% less than the original 645D pricing.  What I completely missed was the change to Sony CMOS sensors, which might bring Sony's economies of scale to bear and bring MF sensor costs down a bit; on the other hand, the new Phase One and Hasselblad models with that sensor are priced _higher_ than the previous CCD models with the same sensor size!?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 08:05:42 pm by BJL »
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Theodoros

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #282 on: April 19, 2014, 02:52:39 am »

Adapters to the Rolleiflex SL66 system with helicoid are available, but will set you back $800.  They work pretty well.  Alternatively, you can have a skilled mechanic rework those 645 helicoids.  And for the special lenses, you could also have a rigid adapter built.  I have all three versions.  


May you provide a link?  Do they make adapters for Contax or Mamyia too, or are they just for Pentax?
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ndevlin

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #283 on: April 26, 2014, 09:31:03 am »

Has it been done any test to compare the IQ from the last Pentax 645d to Hasselblad and Phase at similar
type sensor?

Yup. We did. 

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/2010_mini_medium_format_shoot_out.shtml

Indistinguishable.

- N.
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eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #284 on: April 26, 2014, 03:48:41 pm »

If Pentax start selling large numbers of MF, they will be calling the shots on the sensor format - Because Sony doesn't care about Phase One's fabulous margins and elevated price point, Sony cares about Sony's sensor sales which only depend on unit numbers.

Edmund



It seems that in their medium format program, Pentax largely depends on sensor manufacturers (e.g. Kodak, Sony) to guide their format choice.  Perhaps initially they were hoping to contract the production of large 54x40 sensors, but as it turned out, Sony's 44x33 CCD sensor gave them enough of a quantum leap to manufacture a new model.  Thus, they opted for the smaller sensor size, even though it doesn't take advantage of the full coverage of some of their wonderful lenses.  For Pentax, the bigger sensor would make sense, if it was offered, especially because of the nice adaptibility of matching P67 lenses.  But for right now, it seems, Ricoh/Pentax is betting on their new 44x33 645Z.  I don't believe that a larger sensor in the future is out of question, especially if the 645Z turns into a huge success and if there was a manufacturer to be had that would supply such a sensor at a reasonable cost to Pentax.  At present, the only limiting lens in terms of coverage is the DA 25mm, and I presume Pentax could re-tool for the manufacturing of the D FA version if necessary.  Some owners of the DA version might not be too excited about having to fork out another $4-5K for a D FA in addition to their DA, but they might have gotten sufficient usage out of the 645D and the 645Z to be willing to gain additional coverage on a larger sensor.  




« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 03:50:28 pm by eronald »
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uaiomex

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #285 on: April 26, 2014, 05:16:58 pm »

I think too that if Pentax sells a significant amount of Z's, the chances will increase exponentially to demand from Sony bigger cmos sensors.
Under this belief, I feel inclined to buy one to help for this quest. lol! Not determinant of course but just another incentive to buy a Z.
Eduardo


If Pentax start selling large numbers of MF, they will be calling the shots on the sensor format - Because Sony doesn't care about Phase One's fabulous margins and elevated price point, Sony cares about Sony's sensor sales which only depend on unit numbers.

Edmund

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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #286 on: April 26, 2014, 08:20:15 pm »

If Pentax start selling large numbers of MF, they will be calling the shots on the sensor format - Because Sony doesn't care about Phase One's fabulous margins and elevated price point, Sony cares about Sony's sensor sales which only depend on unit numbers.

Indeed, there is just no way the kind of volumes projected by P1 and Hassy could have convinced Sony semi-conductor to do the 645Z sensor.

Odds are therefore that P1 and Hassy have access to a - vaguely - MF CMOS sensor thanks to the business model of Pentax. The earlier release of the IQ250 probably only just gave the illusion that P1 was in the driving seat.

Overall, I wouldn't want to be in their shoes at this point in time, but their choice of business model had been leading to this situation for years. Most of us knew it, they knew it.

Most Japanese companies see the emergence of China as an opportunity to reposition themselves as high value items providers. Nikon has made it clear for years that they want to deliver the best 35mm equipment on the market, Ricoh-Pentax is trying to focus on the niche of the niche on top of that.

There was already little factual differentiation between a D800E and the Scandinavian backs, the 645Z is multiplying the threat by a factor of 10 by stealing the show where it hurts most, at the level of the imaging chip itself.

P1 and Hassy don't seem to be worried about it, so I guess we shouldn't be worried either. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 08:25:23 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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Paul2660

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #287 on: April 26, 2014, 09:38:46 pm »

I would very surprised if the chip is not the same between all three, the fab cost of making 2 or 3 different chips, to me would take the cost model/advantage away.  From what I have read on the CMOS vs CCD post, it seems to me that the CMOS design is much more of a drop in component, and not as much tweaking is needed. 

However I am not sure who's processors are being used in each.  Nikon used their Expeed chip on the the D800 family, and D610/600.  Sony I am sure used one of the processors on the A99, which supposedly is the same chip as the Nikon 610/600. 

To your point of the Z bring down P1 or Hassi or both, only time will tell.  As a company, I would be more concerned about advances in mirror-less and phones as these products cost base is exponentially below the Pentax Z. All three players better be watching Sony to see what they have coming next.

To me Pentax still has a ways to go at least here in the US

1.  They need to establish a better dealer channel and warranty repair center in the US--I wonder what their tech support process will be, call center off shore? or dedicated in the US?
2.  Current lenses are older and seem to just have been re-released to the U.S. market  The 35FA goes back to around 2004 as I purchased one then
3.  They have no solution for tech lenses or the Alpa FPS as they won't have a removable back at ship and none seems planned
4.  They have no tilt/shift lenses in the 645 line that I am aware of, and the older 67 lenses that had shift like the 75mm I don't feel will do very well on this 50MP chip
5.  I am not aware of any 645 leaf shutter lenses, but they did have some in the 67 lineup, that may work with the 67/645 adapter
6.  Pentax still has not shipped anything, and I have not seen any pre-ship reviews by anyone, and June is just around the corner
7.  The verdict is still out on how they will tether and what software will support it.  I can't see the wifi solution being much better than the Phase One Capture Pilot which IMO is current not very leading edge
8.  It's still a cropped sensor so the photographers that shoot wide, may or may not wait for a full frame sensor
9.  Just because all three players are using the same chip, the end results may or may not be equivalent.  As a C1 user since 2007 I am aware of what Phase One can deliver from their implementation of this Sony chip.  Pentax so far is not well known for raw software

Right now I don't see it being the beginning of the end for P1 or Hassi,

Paul
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david distefano

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #288 on: April 26, 2014, 10:01:22 pm »


Right now I don't see it being the beginning of the end for P1 or Hassi,

Paul

i don't think anyone believes that this camera will bring about the demise of phase one or hasselblad. i think people are thinking that if, and if is a mighty big word, if the pentax delievers on image quality very near to the other two, a reshuffling a prices may be in order. and then again rolls royce prices haven't lower because of lower priced luxury cars. there is a status at this point in shooting with a phase one product which is considered the rolls royce of medium format digital and as long as that mindset continues i don't see their prices dropping unless the pentax really delivers. and as paul just said, there are other issues, lenses, support, etc. that play into the equations. are these other issues worth the extra $20k? that is up to the photographer.
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eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #289 on: April 27, 2014, 12:46:16 am »

i don't think anyone believes that this camera will bring about the demise of phase one or hasselblad. i think people are thinking that if, and if is a mighty big word, if the pentax delievers on image quality very near to the other two, a reshuffling a prices may be in order. and then again rolls royce prices haven't lower because of lower priced luxury cars. there is a status at this point in shooting with a phase one product which is considered the rolls royce of medium format digital and as long as that mindset continues i don't see their prices dropping unless the pentax really delivers. and as paul just said, there are other issues, lenses, support, etc. that play into the equations. are these other issues worth the extra $20k? that is up to the photographer.

Yeah, maybe there will be a first class VIP forum where Doug and Steve dealers hang out with the "real" customers, and we'll be free to swap images of cats right here :)

Edmund
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Cartman

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #290 on: April 27, 2014, 05:09:30 am »

Yeah, maybe there will be a first class VIP forum where Doug and Steve dealers hang out with the "real" customers, and we'll be free to swap images of cats right here :)

Edmund

I haven't logged in in a long time, but that was too funny not to make note of.
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Conner999

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #291 on: April 27, 2014, 11:07:25 am »

While Pentax's plans/possible sales volumes in NA and likely more so outside NA, will have be of far greater concern to Sony re: the new sensor's business case, having P1 and Hassy using it also has a nice endorsement to it.

That said, I think of equal or greater concern to P1 or Hassy, assuming they chose to continue go it alone (I'd not be surprised to see a Hassy+Sony link-up), should be what SONY has planned for that sensor.  
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eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #292 on: April 27, 2014, 11:17:21 am »

While Pentax's plans/possible sales volumes in NA and likely more so outside NA, will have be of far greater concern to Sony re: the new sensor's business case, having P1 and Hassy using it also has a nice endorsement to it.

That said, I think of equal or greater concern to P1 or Hassy, assuming they chose to continue go it alone (I'd not be surprised to see a Hassy+Sony link-up), should be what SONY has planned for that sensor.  

I think you got the tenses wrong - the question is what people are thinking of doing with the new sensor which Sony is now shopping around. Imagery from the current Phase/Hassy/Pentax MF sensor is a couple of years old, meaning that was the point when it was finalized for production, and the followup has doubtless already been prototyped at this point.

Edmund
« Last Edit: April 27, 2014, 11:19:29 am by eronald »
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #293 on: April 27, 2014, 11:56:22 am »

Imagery from the current Phase/Hassy/Pentax MF sensor is a couple of years old, meaning that was the point when it was finalized for production, and the followup has doubtless already been prototyped at this point.

Edmund, it sounds like you know a lot about the sensor development cycles, and, surprisingly to me, it seems like they're as long as microprocessor development cycles. Can you answer a few questions for me?

Do new sensor designs typically proceed in lockstep with new process design and feature-size changes, or are sensors usually designed for an already-debugged process?

I know we refer to the dominant image capture technology as CMOS, but, since there are on-chip ADCs, is it really not pure CMOS, but a variation on BiCMOS?

What is the process-limited feature size of state-of-the-art sensors? Yes, I know that, these days, there's a lot of debate about feature size metrics that seemed so clear at a couple of hundred nanometers, but an approximate answer would be useful.

Are the current advances in performance that we're seeing from Sony coming mostly from new processes, or from innovative circuit design? Yes, the question is too broad, but any insight would be useful.

Where do the sensor design engineers usually publish? I see some papers at ISSCC, which used to be, and may still be, the go to conference for microprocessors and memory. Is tehre a better place to look?

In your answer, you might consider the following. I am not a semiconductor designer, but started using ICs in 1963 with tricky-to-use DCTL. I have managed groups that designed a couple of dozen ASICs, though, so I know enough about semiconductor design to get me in trouble.

Thanks for any help you can give.

Jim


tsjanik

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #294 on: April 27, 2014, 01:01:45 pm »

Edmond:

Given your often expressed opinions of P1/H pricing, you may find the following entertaining.  Taken from the engineers' comments on Ricoh's 645Z Special Page:

"Thus, we decided to release PENTAX 645Z as a new flagship model in 2014 to call attention to its superiority in image quality overwhelming 35-mm full frame cameras. As for the price, the price range of medium format digital cameras was 3 to 4 million yen, which is hardly payable, but PENTAX 645D was put on sale at the barely reasonable price of 800,000 yen, making an impossible dream come true."

The whole site is worth a look.  It's an obvious translation of the original Japanese text.  Somewhat refreshing in its lack of the typical advertising smoothness.

http://www.camera-pentax.jp/645z/en/

Tom
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Vladimirovich

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #295 on: April 27, 2014, 02:28:26 pm »

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eronald

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #296 on: April 27, 2014, 02:28:42 pm »

Jim,

 Like any non-practising engineer, I am hopelessly out of date.
 However there is a very nice site, ImageSensorsWorld, where you can find news and links and anonymized rumors. I read the stuff from my own perspective ... yours will vary through your own experience :)


Edmund

PS. Yes, I have been told that Eric Fossum is very helpful.
 
Edmund, it sounds like you know a lot about the sensor development cycles, and, surprisingly to me, it seems like they're as long as microprocessor development cycles. Can you answer a few questions for me?

Do new sensor designs typically proceed in lockstep with new process design and feature-size changes, or are sensors usually designed for an already-debugged process?

I know we refer to the dominant image capture technology as CMOS, but, since there are on-chip ADCs, is it really not pure CMOS, but a variation on BiCMOS?

What is the process-limited feature size of state-of-the-art sensors? Yes, I know that, these days, there's a lot of debate about feature size metrics that seemed so clear at a couple of hundred nanometers, but an approximate answer would be useful.

Are the current advances in performance that we're seeing from Sony coming mostly from new processes, or from innovative circuit design? Yes, the question is too broad, but any insight would be useful.

Where do the sensor design engineers usually publish? I see some papers at ISSCC, which used to be, and may still be, the go to conference for microprocessors and memory. Is tehre a better place to look?

In your answer, you might consider the following. I am not a semiconductor designer, but started using ICs in 1963 with tricky-to-use DCTL. I have managed groups that designed a couple of dozen ASICs, though, so I know enough about semiconductor design to get me in trouble.

Thanks for any help you can give.

Jim



« Last Edit: April 27, 2014, 02:32:58 pm by eronald »
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #297 on: April 27, 2014, 03:01:41 pm »


 However there is a very nice site, ImageSensorsWorld, where you can find news and links and anonymized rumors. I read the stuff from my own perspective ... yours will vary through your own experience :)

Thanks, Edmund. That's a good site for what I'm looking for.

Jim

Vladimirovich

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #298 on: April 27, 2014, 04:40:17 pm »

Thanks, Edmund. That's a good site for what I'm looking for.
and you for sure know this blog = http://harvestimaging.com/blog/
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gfx

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Re: Pentax 645Z
« Reply #299 on: April 27, 2014, 05:48:35 pm »

but, imo the main issue is pretty long synchro time 1/125s
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