Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: How to make "image white" into "paper white"  (Read 10478 times)

hjulenissen

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2051
How to make "image white" into "paper white"
« on: March 10, 2014, 06:12:12 am »

I'd like to have a white vignette that fades into paper white. I.e. the image borders should match perfectly with the paper outside of the print area.

Is there a simple way to achieve this? I only did a simple trial and it did not work out (still able to see the abrupt transition between paper and active print area).

-h
Logged

TonyW

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 643
Re: How to make "image white" into "paper white"
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2014, 11:50:53 am »

In PS one way would be to select the area of interest using the elliptical or rectangular marquee selection tool.  Once happy with the placement click on add mask then making sure the mask is still selected go to Filters / Blur / Gaussian Blur and experiment with the radius to get the effect you need.  I appreciate you asked in the LR forum but as I do not know how to do it in LR hoped that this may be of some help
EDIT:Curious I had a look and in LR there is a way using the Effects panel and Post crop vignetting.  You may have already tried this way but playing with the Amount, Midpoint, Roundness and Feather will work but appears to offer less control than PS
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 12:19:51 pm by TonyW »
Logged

hjulenissen

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2051
Re: How to make "image white" into "paper white"
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2014, 08:06:46 am »

I am aware of how to make a post-crop vignette in Lightroom. What I am not aware of is how to make it fade into paper white (as opposed to print white).

When making a white vignette the direct way, I can see a difference between the corners of the active image area, and the paper margins.

-h
Logged

TonyW

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 643
Re: How to make "image white" into "paper white"
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2014, 10:40:57 am »

I think I understand except for "paper white as opposed to print white"?  

If you mouse over the areas that should be absolute white i.e. paper white no ink, the values shown in the histogram should be 100% for RGB anything less than this will throw ink at the paper and you are likely to see the changes you have noted.  If the vignette is close to the edges of the print and feather is set high it is quite possible that no areas will be paper white 100% RGB.  Perhaps an adjustment brush around the edges would ease the transition, or consider adding the Radial filter to ease the transition to white?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 10:58:00 am by TonyW »
Logged

Christoph C. Feldhaim

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2509
  • There is no rule! No - wait ...
Re: How to make "image white" into "paper white"
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2014, 10:59:12 am »

Usually RGB 255-255-255 should translate into no-ink.
Shouldn't it?

TonyW

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 643
Re: How to make "image white" into "paper white"
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2014, 11:07:18 am »

Yes but LR readouts are percentages unless you switch to the Tone Curves panel
Logged

BCRider

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 27
Re: How to make "image white" into "paper white"
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2014, 01:21:14 pm »

...(still able to see the abrupt transition between paper and active print area).

Was the image fading properly to "no-ink"?  If not then TonyW's ideas seem helpful as that is the first step.

If the image is fine, then perhaps it is due to gloss-differential?   You don't say what inks or paper are being used.  Unfortunately, other than changing inks or paper I don't know a fix for that. 

If the image is good, then I suppose it could also be due to a poor printer profile (i.e. profile white point isn't properly mapped to the paper white).   In that case, most likely the profile is being affected by Optical Brighteners (try remaking the profile with UV cut or vice-versa?) or perhaps the profile was made with a poor device.
Logged

Paul Williamson

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 75
    • http://www.mustbeart.com
Re: How to make "image white" into "paper white"
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2014, 10:26:30 pm »

I think I know a way that should work in Photoshop, but not in Lightroom. I'm too lazy to test this right now but theoretically ...

Convert to Profile and use your *printer* profile for the destination space.

Now, edit the edges of the image so that they fade to pure (255,255,255) white.

Now print with the same profile. This should preserve the numeric values of the edited image, so white should really be white.

Note that you can't necessarily expect to convert this back to a normal editing space and still have the fade go to pure white. It might work with some editing spaces, but for others the printer's pure white would be out of gamut for the editing space.

If you still see a border, what you're seeing is posterization in the extreme bright tones just short of white. That is, the best fade-to-white you can hope for is limited by the lightest gray that your printer can print. At some point, it has to transition from some dots of black (or light black or light light black depending on your ink set) to zero dots. This transition cannot be perfectly smooth. The best it can do is to use its lightest neutral ink and add space between the dots. The printer firmware may put a limit on how much space it is willing to add. Once the dot spacing gets big enough to see, it isn't a convincing near-white anymore, just paper white with a bunch of visible dots. Depending on the details of the arithmetic, printing in 16-bit mode might help.

A possible solution to this problem is to print the white border, all the way to edges of the paper (or far enough to disappear under the matt, if there is one). That way your printer's best near-white would be the whitest thing visible, and nobody would notice that it's not identical to paper white. This would also solve any problem with gloss differential caused by gloss optimizer.
Logged

JRSmit

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 922
    • Jan R. Smit Fine Art Printing Specialist
Re: How to make "image white" into "paper white"
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2014, 04:29:15 am »

I'd like to have a white vignette that fades into paper white. I.e. the image borders should match perfectly with the paper outside of the print area.

Is there a simple way to achieve this? I only did a simple trial and it did not work out (still able to see the abrupt transition between paper and active print area).

-h
In print the image white will become the paper white. So if the vignette at the border is white (rgb 100%) the print will not show a border transition.
Logged
Fine art photography: janrsmit.com
Fine Art Printing Specialist: www.fineartprintingspecialist.nl


Jan R. Smit

KeithR

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 759
Re: How to make "image white" into "paper white"
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2014, 01:14:45 pm »

I am by no means a PS expert(advanced novice might be a better description) but what I might do(in LR) is to do your white vignette as you would, check to see if the the edges are as close to 100% as you can get then bring it into PS. Once in PS, chose Image>Image size and resize your image so that it is(let's say) .25 inch smaller all around. In PS(still) create a new canvas. Under File>New and create a new canvas(make sure the resolution is the same as your original) fill it with white(255,255,255) to the output size you want. Open both windows side by side, click on the original file and drag it to the blank canvas. I think it's either shift click or ctrl click to center the the image onto the blank canvas. Your original image, since it is smaller, will now have that white vignette fade into paper white(and since you're in PS should read 255,255,255 all the way around. When done, flatten the image, save it with a new name and if you mean to print out of LR just import the new image.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 01:18:56 pm by KeithR »
Logged
The destination is our goal but it’s the journey we experience

Yauman

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5
Re: How to make "image white" into "paper white"
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2014, 05:33:35 am »

I'd like to have a white vignette that fades into paper white. I.e. the image borders should match perfectly with the paper outside of the print area.

Is there a simple way to achieve this? I only did a simple trial and it did not work out (still able to see the abrupt transition between paper and active print area).

-h

Ok, if I think I understand what you want , it's quite easy but in Photoshop rather than Lightroom - I do this every day with my product photography (I photograph photo equipment to advertise for sale on eBay and the background has to be paper white to blend with the frame background - see example attached.)

Here's the steps:
1. Make a copy layer (Cmd-J)
2. Select the lasso tool and free hand draw a lasso selection around the object - not very tight - 50+ pixels from the edges of the object is good - make it free hand to be a bit random.
3. Create mask - then Cmd-I to invert mask. (assume default - ie black mask) That will mask the object you want to keep from changing.
4. Select the object's thumb - then Cmd-L to select Image Adjustment level change.  Pull the far right (white) set all the way to the left .  This will blow the image to 100% white - except for the protected object masked off.
5. Select the mask thumbnail and select properties. Play with the "feather" control to smooth out the masked look (about 80 pixel is about right.)
6. Merge the two layer - voila you have it!

See image attached:
Logged

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: How to make "image white" into "paper white"
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2014, 10:19:29 am »

Yes but LR readouts are percentages unless you switch to the Tone Curves panel
  could you explain that.  I only seem to be seeing percentages.  How do I se the actual 0-255 number?

TonyW

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 643
Re: How to make "image white" into "paper white"
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2014, 11:48:06 am »

Alan, sorry my error, nothing to do with the Tone Curves :-[  I should have said by switching on Soft Proofing and selecting your paper profile will enable you to see RGB values
Logged

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: How to make "image white" into "paper white"
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2014, 09:35:45 pm »

Tony:  Yes, thanks, when I click on Soft Proofing I can see the values.  I notice that the only other change was  to a white background.  What other changes are happening when you click soft proofing?

TonyW

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 643
Re: How to make "image white" into "paper white"
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2014, 06:10:59 am »

I notice that the only other change was  to a white background.  What other changes are happening when you click soft proofing?
IMHO a little bit of Adobe magic  :).  With soft proofing you can check your colours are in gamut for both display and output device and by setting the correct profile for that device will simulate how your image will look, for instance when printed and allow you to make changes to the image based on how the soft proof version looks in comparison to the monitor view.

To see RGB percentage values rather than numbers in the Develop module seems to be a logical choice when dealing with raw files and actual RGB numerical values may be of value only when we know the output colour space and need to produce an exact colour e.g. Pantone.  For me most of the time I concentrate on making the image look good and how RGB numbers are displayed is not of great importance other than perhaps confirming neutrals which would be equal RGB values either numbers or percentages
Logged

Torbjörn Tapani

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 319
Re: How to make "image white" into "paper white"
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2014, 06:40:10 am »

Tony:  Yes, thanks, when I click on Soft Proofing I can see the values.  I notice that the only other change was  to a white background.  What other changes are happening when you click soft proofing?

The input file could have a lot more levels than 256 (8 bits). When you enable soft proofing LR show you a preview of your 12 or 14 bit RAW file as it would appear in a 8 bit color space. So LR has not calculated the value (0-255) until soft proofing is enabled.
Logged

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: How to make "image white" into "paper white"
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2014, 01:53:47 pm »

OK I see the changes in Proof Copy.  So now I have 9 different profiles I can select for my Epson iP4600.  Are these different models of the same iP4600 printer?  Or do I select one of these profiles that I like by checking the view on the monitor and then the printer follows the ICM profile?   How do you adjust for the type of paper?  Are there BW profiles available to download or only color?

http://imgcdn.geocaching.com/cache/613e576f-ba9e-40bf-b7ce-5965f5282365.jpg?rnd=0.185583

TonyW

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 643
Re: How to make "image white" into "paper white"
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2014, 04:21:46 pm »

Few questions there Alan  :).  Easier to answer by dissecting the post.  Please bear in mind that anything below assumes that you already have a correctly calibrated and profiled monitor.
OK I see the changes in Proof Copy.  So now I have 9 different profiles I can select for my Epson iP4600.
I assume Epson was a typo as the profiles are Canon

Quote
Are these different models of the same iP4600 printer?
No they are different paper profiles describing the characteristics of each of the Canon papers and Canon ink using your iP4600.

Quote
Or do I select one of these profiles that I like by checking the view on the monitor and then the printer follows the ICM profile?
It would not be the best idea to select a profile based on what you like the look of on screen as each profile has been made for the particular paper e.g. glossy, matt etc and would probably not be optimal and may look poor once printed

Quote
How do you adjust for the type of paper?
Printer manufacturers icc profiles can be confusing outside of the manufacturers own application.  Canon certainly do not seem to be an exception here.  As I do have a couple of lightweight Canon printers and referring to my notes this I believe should help you identifying the correct profile
MP = Matte Photo Paper, PR = Photo Paper Pro, SP = Photo Paper Plus Glossy, GL = Photo Paper Plus Glossy II, SG = Photo Paper Plus Semi-Gloss, PT= Photo Paper Pro Platinum.
The numbers appended after the name refer to the print quality 1= highest to 5 (I think!) = lowest

So if I have decoded your profile examples correctly your Canon paper profile names refer to the following Canon papers only:

GL2/SG2 = Photo Paper Glossy II/ Semi Gloss/ quality 2
GL3/SG2 = Photo Paper Glossy II/ Semi Gloss/ quality 3
MP2 = Canon Matte Photo Paper / quality 2
PR1 = Canon Photo Paper Pro/ quality 1
PR2 = Canon Photo Paper Pro/ quality 2
PR3 = Canon Photo Paper Pro/ quality 3
PT2 = Canon Photo Paper Pro Platinum / quality 2
PT3 = Canon Photo Paper Pro Platinum / quality 3

Quote
Are there BW profiles available to download or only color?
I am not aware of any B&W profiles only for this printer and inkset.  So my suggestion would be:

Convert your image to B&W (virtual copy LR?)
In Soft proof select the profile for the particular paper you are going to use 
Make your density and contrast adjustments as required using soft proofing view, turn on the comparison view if required.
Then print from LR Print module ideally allowing LR to manage and do not forget to turn off printer manages colour in the printer dialogue. 
Note that as the printer is not a specialised B&W printer you may still get a colour cast as it will be trying to make a neutral greyscale by mixing colours.
Logged

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 15850
    • Flicker photos
Re: How to make "image white" into "paper white"
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2014, 07:54:07 pm »

Yes it's Canon, the Epson is my V600 scanner. Thanks for a very thorough and understandable clarification.

One question.  While editing levels COLOR contrast etc, do you do that in soft proof or what?  What should my color gamut be set for in the calibrated sv2?

TonyW

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 643
Re: How to make "image white" into "paper white"
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2014, 07:30:56 am »

My preference is to edit the image first in Develop module and only when satisfied turn on soft proofing, select dual view to compare original with the soft proof side by side and select the paper profile.  Once you have done this you will most likely see that the soft proof version actually needs a little tweaking to match what you see in the 'normal' view so you can use the Create Proof Copy button and work on a virtual copy of your original.  It just makes sense to me to leave your original edits alone as you may want to print to different output devices or papers in the future which will likely require different 'tweaks' to match the original.

Colour gamut of the monitor IMO should be set to the highest.  If you have the options to switch between native which may be close to Adobe RGB, or sRGB use the Adobe RGB setting.  The reason being that it is likely that both your camera can record and your printer can output a wider gamut than sRGB and it is also possible that the printer paper combination is able to exceed Adobe RGB at least in some areas.  So it seems to make sense to make sure that first you can see as much as possible what your camera sensor has captured onscreen as well as being able to output that to print media as close as possible
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up