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Author Topic: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration  (Read 46306 times)

eronald

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #120 on: March 12, 2014, 10:46:23 am »

oh well ...

:mouth wide shut:


Haplo,

 You seem astonished that I agree with you. One can be crazy but lucid.

 LL MF zone seems to be where all the divas and spoilt kids come; this where people *need* a 30ft limo with a built-in swimming pool.

 P1 aka Leaf have played this audience like a violin, so you have 80MP backs and 60MP backs and 39 MP backs 30MP backs even old 20 and 16MP used backs, and color and monochrome and IR, and all variety of sizes and Phase label and Leaf label and then Phammy and Contax and V and Hy6 mount, some of those cameras which work great but haven't been in production since Elvis went out to buy cigarettes. Of course people who "need" all this "choice" are ready to pay as much as a rockstar for his next guitar.

 And all of this for an audience of what? 1000 sales a year? 2000?  It seems P1 have 300 employees. You work out how the shark needs to keep swimming to stay alive.

 So now I look at this with the eyes of an EE, and I see that the main technology, CCD, which has driven all this limousine-extension business, is now basically as admirable and obsolete as the SR71 and the Space Shuttle. Which in fact is to be expected since it is declassified military and remote sensing technology of the 70s and 80s. So one shouldn't expect many more novel CCD chips to get designed or in fact made. But it is great that you can get it, because you certainly paid for it. Wikipedia tells me the going price of an electro-optical keyhole viewer was equivalent to that of a Nimitz, in the high 10 figure range. I guess scientists should be happy Nasa finally managed to get one Hubble to look out, after launching a whole bunch of them that aimed their mirrors and CCDs downwards.

 Yes, CCD is a great technology. Yes it's going away. Except for the military who can afford to make it work, consumer imagery is now overwhelmingly going to be CMOS with onboard ADC. Yes, if I had a Strad, or a Louis Lot flute I would keep it and play it every day.  Yes, I may be over 50 but I won't do a dead design. So, yes, the best thing to do is to start prototyping and wait for what my professors called "le rendez vous téchnologique", the moment when the new tech hits the market  and everything changes, to arrive. Thank you for giving me an opportunity to share.

Edmund

PS. I spoke yesterday to a company that is starting to prototype flexible plastic sheet sensors, and they expect to be in production in a few years, with large sheets, albeit with a low resolution. I think chances are we might bring back 8x10 within my working life.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 12:10:38 pm by eronald »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #121 on: March 12, 2014, 03:37:13 pm »

Hi,

Interesting stuff…

Alternate technologies, thinking out of the box, the future is not always an extrapolation what we have now.

Best regards
Erik



PS. I spoke yesterday to a company that is starting to prototype flexible plastic sheet sensors, and they expect to be in production in a few years, with large sheets, albeit with a low resolution. I think chances are we might bring back 8x10 within my working life.

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BJL

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #122 on: March 12, 2014, 04:25:41 pm »

... a company ... is starting to prototype flexible plastic sheet sensors, and they expect to be in production in a few years, with large sheets, albeit with a low resolution. I think chances are we might bring back 8x10 within my working life.
Is this based on LCD or LED panel technology? I understand that display panel fabrication tools can also be used to make sensors that are bigger but of lower resolution than those made with CMOS technology (which includes CCDs!).  LCD panels for phones are now at 651ppi or beyond (40 micron spacing) and that could give a 6510x5208 (34MP) sensor in 8"x10" format. That starts to sound useful, for people who are into that sort of thing.

Maybe your project should be redirected towards an LCD panel based digital back for 10"x8" view cameras!  Call it the Janus, with a panel on the front for taking and another on the back for preview.
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EricWHiss

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #123 on: March 12, 2014, 08:24:46 pm »


PS. I spoke yesterday to a company that is starting to prototype flexible plastic sheet sensors, and they expect to be in production in a few years, with large sheets, albeit with a low resolution. I think chances are we might bring back 8x10 within my working life.


This would be cool!  How about a 1 meter by 1 meter sensor?   There is no substitute for sensor size...
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EricWHiss

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #124 on: March 12, 2014, 08:27:01 pm »

Call it the Janus, with a panel on the front for taking and another on the back for preview.

Good idea!
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eronald

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #125 on: March 12, 2014, 08:32:53 pm »

This would be cool!  How about a 1 meter by 1 meter sensor?   There is no substitute for sensor size...


Yeah, well 50x50 cm or something are apparently their initial sizes, at low resolution.

I don't know if many of us have the right camera at home :)

What would be nice would be a super-janus, where you flip a switch and it turns into an lcd and lets you do a contact print.

Edmund
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Sareesh Sudhakaran

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #126 on: March 13, 2014, 05:24:58 am »

Yeah, well 50x50 cm or something are apparently their initial sizes, at low resolution.

Possibly a noob question: I thought only Dalsa and Truesense made medium format CCD sensors, and now Sony makes MF CMOS sensors. How can anybody else have the technical and artistic knowhow to produce world-class images?

By the way, here's a link I found of the pricing of Kodak's 50 MP KAF-50100: http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1309562 $3,500 for volume in 2009 could translate to $2,000 for volume today. Initial R&D, manpower, equipment and software development would really raise the overheads that need to be recovered...makes me wonder if the Pentax 645D has the best pricing ($6.6K now) that is viable.
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BJL

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other makers of larger than 35mm format sensors, for uses like medical
« Reply #127 on: March 13, 2014, 09:51:42 am »

I thought only Dalsa and Truesense made medium format CCD sensors, and now Sony makes MF CMOS sensors. How can anybody else have the technical and artistic knowhow to produce world-class images?
Kodak/Truesense and Dalsa are the only two that have been serving the medium format camera market, but a number of other companies offer sensors in formats larger than 35mm for other markets like industrial, medical, astronomical, aerial mapping and cameras in satellites. Teledyne was doing so even before it acquired Dalsa, and Fairchild is another.

With CCD sensors larger than 35mm format, looking at medium format photographic equipment is seeing only the tip if the iceberg, with even Kodak and Dalsa making most of their sensor models and most of their sales in other markets.
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eronald

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Re: other makers of larger than 35mm format sensors, for uses like medical
« Reply #128 on: March 14, 2014, 06:33:49 pm »

One can make any tethered CMOS camera device (no display, no menus) for around $500 of electronics + cost of mechanics + sensor cost. It might be possible to turn it into an iPad-driven device fairly easily. Design costs for the boards would be around $6K in Europe.

This makes a 35mm mini-alpa a perfectly feasible project, and in fact might make it more useful than a Sony.

Of course, if you do this with a big sensor you get an interesting MF solution.

The trick is that you can do what the Apertus people are doing, run Linux on an FPGA/CPU combo (Zynq) so that user-level code can easily be written on the Linux module. So you don't pay for software development because most of is done by your user community.

I think even with MF CCD solutions from one of the suppliers Eric cited, you'd end up with an under $10K tethered device.

Edmund
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EricWHiss

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #129 on: March 14, 2014, 07:37:52 pm »

Yeah, well 50x50 cm or something are apparently their initial sizes, at low resolution.
I don't know if many of us have the right camera at home :)
Edmund

I'm building a camera right now in my studio for 12x14 inch direct positive paper with a copy lens in copal 3 shutter.  Totally different direction from this thread, but you can get the direct positive paper in 24 inch rolls so I cut one in half in the changing room and am using it on two epson printer spools like a really big film cassette. 

I think that 50cm x 50cm flexible sensor would fit right into my camera!
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Lacunapratum

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #130 on: March 14, 2014, 09:35:27 pm »

... and of course you can fold it up in your pocket if you need to take it for a hike. 
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MichaelEzra

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #131 on: March 14, 2014, 09:49:04 pm »

... and of course you can fold it up in your pocket if you need to take it for a hike. 

"roll it" :)
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synn

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #132 on: March 14, 2014, 10:17:18 pm »

A 30+ MP 8x10 sensor that doesn't cost the GDP of a small country sounds very interesting indeed!
I have been wanting to do large format portraiture for a long time and this might be the ticket for it.
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eronald

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #133 on: March 14, 2014, 10:17:45 pm »

"roll it" :)

And you can use it for an Xray when get brought down from the hike :)

These things are made for industrial xrays apparently, at least that's an important market where being able to take images inside things is lucrative.

Edmund
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eronald

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #134 on: March 14, 2014, 10:20:45 pm »

A 30+ MP 8x10 sensor that doesn't cost the GDP of a small country sounds very interesting indeed!
I have been wanting to do large format portraiture for a long time and this might be the ticket for it.

I wouldn't expect much more than a few MP within the next few years; the density is not great.
http://www.isorg.fr/actu/0/plastic-logic-and-isorg-claim-the-prestigious-flexi-award-for-their-revolutionary-flexible-plastic-image-sensor_206.htm

To cite:
The collaboration is based on the deposition of organic printed photodetectors (OPD), pioneered by ISORG, onto a plastic organic thin-film transistor (OTFT) backplane, developed by  Plastic Logic, to create a flexible sensor with a 4x4 cm active area, 375um pitch (175um pixel size with 200um spacing) and 94 x 95 = 8930 pixel resolution. As much as for the technical achievement, this award recognises the far-reaching potential of the underlying technology

Edmund
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RichDesmond

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Re: other makers of larger than 35mm format sensors, for uses like medical
« Reply #135 on: March 16, 2014, 10:06:58 pm »

One can make any tethered CMOS camera device (no display, no menus) for around $500 of electronics + cost of mechanics + sensor cost. It might be possible to turn it into an iPad-driven device fairly easily. Design costs for the boards would be around $6K in Europe.

This makes a 35mm mini-alpa a perfectly feasible project, and in fact might make it more useful than a Sony....

That would be very interesting to me. Given the sensor realities at the moment I think a strong argument can be made for proceeding in that direction.
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eronald

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Re: other makers of larger than 35mm format sensors, for uses like medical
« Reply #136 on: March 16, 2014, 10:14:12 pm »

That would be very interesting to me. Given the sensor realities at the moment I think a strong argument can be made for proceeding in that direction.

What sort of work would you be doing - and what sort of focal lengths would you require?

Edmund
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RichDesmond

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Re: other makers of larger than 35mm format sensors, for uses like medical
« Reply #137 on: March 17, 2014, 07:24:58 pm »

What sort of work would you be doing - and what sort of focal lengths would you require?

Edmund

Mostly landscapes, with some architecture interiors (mainly churches) Nothing really long (100mm equiv) Wides mostly, which I realize may be a problem.

A Canon FF with the 17 and 24 TS lenses (and others, of course) is a workable solution, but I've been mulling over the tech camera route for a while now. Not in a huge hurry, this is all for a project my wife and I are slooowly working on. My retirement is a couple of years away, that's when we'll get serious and the pace will pick up.
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eronald

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Re: other makers of larger than 35mm format sensors, for uses like medical
« Reply #138 on: March 17, 2014, 07:38:38 pm »

Mostly landscapes, with some architecture interiors (mainly churches) Nothing really long (100mm equiv) Wides mostly, which I realize may be a problem.

A Canon FF with the 17 and 24 TS lenses (and others, of course) is a workable solution, but I've been mulling over the tech camera route for a while now. Not in a huge hurry, this is all for a project my wife and I are slooowly working on. My retirement is a couple of years away, that's when we'll get serious and the pace will pick up.

I'd go ahead and get the Canon - I rate my chances of finishing the job (getting something usable by third parties outside a lab) at 5%, my chances of getting to a tethered lab version at 20%.

Also, I think I will encourage the use of 35mm retrofocus wides initially, because the symmetrical designs need really precise mounting, and tolerances will get worse due to a small sensor, even if I use an Alpa for testing.

The status of the project is that I've got a feel for the requisite hardware architecture (inspired by the Apertus cine project), have located suppliers for the custom processing electronics boards I will ultimately need, and am preparing to order evaluation electronic kits. At the moment I believe I'm still in my zone of competence. I'm waiting on the partner who will share this eval phase, and the choice of initial small test sensor is still undecided.

Edmund
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 08:14:26 pm by eronald »
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peterurban

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Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
« Reply #139 on: March 17, 2014, 07:51:33 pm »

By the way, this guy had a 8x10 digital "maxiback" made custom to his needs - certainly not in the price range of what most people would find acceptable but potentially lots to learn from ...

http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2011/08/23/mitchell-feinbergs-8x10-digital-capture-back/

Cheers,

P
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