Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: eronald on February 24, 2014, 08:58:49 pm

Title: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on February 24, 2014, 08:58:49 pm
Hi -

There are a variety of reasons why an open medium format camera platform makes sense. In this topic we could discuss whether there would be people interested in investing time and money or contributing such skills in such a product, and what is reasonably attainable in a reasonable amount of time.

In order to fix expectations, I would like to remind people that Linux Torvalds was not very skilled technically when he started Linux, but he got the project off the ground and the pre-existing GNU software suite made the system viable.

Also, the Linux project was  initially a big success for scientists and servers run by professional sysadmins, but  failed to convince the users of conventional desktop PCs. Of course things changed, and now a substantial fraction of the world's phones and tablets run Linux.

In the same way, I believe it would be feasible to do an open source tethered setup in limited time; external processing of the files could then take over: Many on this forum are skilled software engineers. I am not so sure that a mobile camera is an attainable short time goal. The Magic Lantern project has proved very useful to the film-making community, but what we discuss here starts from the sensor, not from an existing working and integrated platform.

Let's discuss -

- what you'd like to see as useful features
- what platform should be a base for the mechanics/optics
- what skills you could bring to the table, and how much time you could contribute


Edmund
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: Doug Peterson on February 24, 2014, 09:07:41 pm
I'm glad to volunteer our inventory of gear for any relevant comparisons or tests. If you come to our NYC studio I'll gladly put you in a room with any of our gear for the day.

This may seem counter to our company's at-the-end-of-the-day purpose of selling medium format backs I maintain that any interest in medium format or high-quality imaging increases demand for our high-end products. So in addition to the personal/academic interest I think it's business-purpose supportable as well.
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: pixjohn on February 24, 2014, 09:08:23 pm
With all do respect, It sounds more like wishful thinking then reality. To many factors, and to small a market would make it unrealistic.  The other factor is money. When you can have a bunch of 16 year old kid's working on coding for free or paying out $100,000's in RD what is more likely? Maybe try the TV show shark tank :)
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on February 24, 2014, 09:12:54 pm
Doug,

 I am very glad you would like to help make this a fun party :)
 Quite a few companies have found open source to be a good business model.
 I would expect that if something like this takes off there would be some specialist vendors like you who would qualify the hardware and distribute it. 

Edmund

I'm glad to volunteer our inventory of gear for any relevant comparisons or tests. If you come to our NYC studio I'll gladly put you in a room with any of our gear for the day.

This may seem counter to our company's at-the-end-of-the-day purpose of selling medium format backs I maintain that any interest in medium format or high-quality imaging increases demand for our high-end products. So in addition to the personal/academic interest I think it's business-purpose supportable as well.
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: matoqui on February 24, 2014, 10:00:26 pm
These people built an open source camera to use it in computational photography. Not medium format, however.

http://graphics.stanford.edu/papers/fcam/
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: bpepz on February 25, 2014, 12:51:55 am
Glad to see interest in this. I like the idea of starting simple on a tethered solution. If a simple working prototype could be made, it would be prime material for a kickstarter project to bring costs down and go even further. Not much I can really contribute though asides from cash if a kick starter is ever made. But I can say what I would like to see, and I will try to keep it realistic. I am not too worried about specs, but more or less the "vision" or direction this could go in.

I would like to see an open and modular platform using medium format sized sensors that can be adapted in various ways at a reasonable price. But don't we all right? Just having open firmware would be amazing. I can see an entire ecosystem of custom firmwares for specialized purposes and continuous improvements from the community. Also exciting would be, once you have a foundation built, custom 3rd party accessories or modular addons could completely change the way it can be used too. Maybe one it has developed a bit, and moved from tethered to a mobile solution, you could install a "CF card" module, or if you don't mind the extra size and weight, a SSD module instead. Being able to customize and specialize would make it worlds over more attractive then closed 35mm and MF systems today. I can probably rant on forever about this, but that is sort of where I would like to see it go. Basically I want to see something like magic lantern for MF, but not just on the firmware side, the hardware side too. I think it would make an amazing combination.
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: Sareesh Sudhakaran on February 25, 2014, 02:01:10 am


In the same way, I believe it would be feasible to do an open source tethered setup in limited time; external processing of the files could then take over: Many on this forum are skilled software engineers. I am not so sure that a mobile camera is an attainable short time goal.

Why rush? A half-baked product won't sell, even if you get it to work.

I believe one should first focus on the market. Who will buy it, why will they and for how much, and how will it be shipped?

A tethered chip to custom software is what you'll find on many researchers' and students' tables. It's not that hard to do. A 'product' is a much more complicated thing. The Digital Bolex Camera is an excellent case study.

Quote

Let's discuss -

- what you'd like to see as useful features

I think we need to start looking at the market in depth before a single electron is allowed to misbehave.

Personally, all I could ever hope for is a Mamiya 7 with a replaceable back, with room to grow until it is 6x7. Small, minimal, easy to calibrate, and a rangefinder already built in (no need to design an EVF or mirror mechanism). Maybe it can start with a fixed leaf shutter lens, an 80mm f/2.8.

No tethering and no mirror - why focus on 'satisfied' MFDB owners? The smart thing to do is go for the Pentax 645D or DSLR or Leica M crowd. Tethering means you need software and a computer. Eliminate the variables and focus on the basics - sensor, firmware, metering, color, body and one lens.

DNG files on CF or SD cards (licensing fees apply from SD). Maybe Sony will have a better deal on their media. Zeiss could supply the lens. Once the camera is up and running, the CF card can be wi-fi enabled for wireless tethering. Let someone right the tethering tools later, right?

The 44x33 Sony sensor definitely does video, but that is another ball game entirely.

Where will it be made and which country is the most cost effective in the immediate sales cycle?

Which license will be be under? Open source is a generic term. Who will look after patenting, accounting and admin?

What would be the long term goals of this enterprise? What structure will it take?
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: Ken R on February 25, 2014, 08:26:21 am
Hi -

There are a variety of reasons why an open medium format camera platform makes sense. In this topic we could discuss whether there would be people interested in investing time and money or contributing such skills in such a product, and what is reasonably attainable in a reasonable amount of time.

In order to fix expectations, I would like to remind people that Linux Torvalds was not very skilled technically when he started Linux, but he got the project off the ground and the pre-existing GNU software suite made the system viable.

Also, the Linux project was  initially a big success for scientists and servers run by professional sysadmins, but  failed to convince the users of conventional desktop PCs. Of course things changed, and now a substantial fraction of the world's phones and tablets run Linux.

In the same way, I believe it would be feasible to do an open source tethered setup in limited time; external processing of the files could then take over: Many on this forum are skilled software engineers. I am not so sure that a mobile camera is an attainable short time goal. The Magic Lantern project has proved very useful to the film-making community, but what we discuss here starts from the sensor, not from an existing working and integrated platform.

Let's discuss -

- what you'd like to see as useful features
- what platform should be a base for the mechanics/optics
- what skills you could bring to the table, and how much time you could contribute


Edmund

Let's not forget about Jim Jannard and RED. His discontent with the current state of affairs of digital cinema propelled him to do something about it and change it forever. (At the time the RED ONE was introduced for 20k, Sony's Digital Cinema Cameras were 10 times the price) He did have a lot of money to throw into the project though. :)
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: bpepz on February 25, 2014, 09:25:07 am
Count me in.

Why rush? A half-baked product won't sell, even if you get it to work.

I believe one should first focus on the market. Who will buy it, why will they and for how much, and how will it be shipped?

A tethered chip to custom software is what you'll find on many researchers' and students' tables. It's not that hard to do. A 'product' is a much more complicated thing. The Digital Bolex Camera is an excellent case study.

I think we need to start looking at the market in depth before a single electron is allowed to misbehave.

Personally, all I could ever hope for is a Mamiya 7 with a replaceable back, with room to grow until it is 6x7. Small, minimal, easy to calibrate, and a rangefinder already built in (no need to design an EVF or mirror mechanism). Maybe it can start with a fixed leaf shutter lens, an 80mm f/2.8.

No tethering and no mirror - why focus on 'satisfied' MFDB owners? The smart thing to do is go for the Pentax 645D or DSLR or Leica M crowd. Tethering means you need software and a computer. Eliminate the variables and focus on the basics - sensor, firmware, metering, color, body and one lens.

DNG files on CF or SD cards (licensing fees apply from SD). Maybe Sony will have a better deal on their media. Zeiss could supply the lens. Once the camera is up and running, the CF card can be wi-fi enabled for wireless tethering. Let someone right the tethering tools later, right?

The 44x33 Sony sensor definitely does video, but that is another ball game entirely.

Where will it be made and which country is the most cost effective in the immediate sales cycle?

Which license will be be under? Open source is a generic term. Who will look after patenting, accounting and admin?

What would be the long term goals of this enterprise? What structure will it take?

Marketing (both real world and Internet), Documentation, Web Development and Support is what I'm good at. I also know a wee bit of Python and created an image processing application in C in college (ages ago, and I can't recall what I did or how I did it). I can commit time, definitely, but only if the core team is in it for the long haul. If a project thinks it will take X time, it will really take 3X+. From experience.

Maybe we can confab a couple of hundred times to know for sure.

Maybe we are over thinking this? I don't really see the point of making an entire camera system with shutter and new lens when there are heaps of great cameras like the Mamiya 7 as you mentioned, and of course stuff like the RZ67, Hasselblad V cameras, and Fuji GX680. It would just be a matter of making a sensor "box" with a modular mount and a couple of sync ports. Also, maybe it does not need to be a huge scale product with distribution chains, offices in every major city, and 24/7 tech support. I am exaggerating a bit, but I like Paul Buffs model of just being able to buy directly from the maker and not not worrying about middlemen, or even better the bare bones Chinese ebay model, my personal favorite.

However, that being said, a single rangefinder, non-tethered back would still be really really cool.

Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: Rob C on February 25, 2014, 09:33:07 am
I'm no geek, unfortunately, so can't contribute anything there, but I can contribute to the wish-list: Hasselblad 500 series-compatible large-sensor square backs that don't cost the Earth would do just fine. The bodies could, I'm sure, be recreated again, and the user interface can't be bettered. IMO.

Why reinvent the wheel when all it needs is a new hub?

Rob C
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: powerslave12r on February 25, 2014, 09:35:32 am
With all do respect, It sounds more like wishful thinking then reality. To many factors, and to small a market would make it unrealistic.  The other factor is money. When you can have a bunch of 16 year old kid's working on coding for free or paying out $100,000's in RD what is more likely? Maybe try the TV show shark tank :)

I think you are underestimating the talent pool willing to work on open source stuff. The list of open source accomplishments today are mind boggling and if you started at the beginning, trying to envision an open source project of such importance from ground zero, you would be forgiven for thinking it's not possible.

This is an insanely great idea. The truth remains that open source hardware projects are harder than open source software projects.

Until more affordable 3D printers!
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: Doug Peterson on February 25, 2014, 09:40:11 am
My dad once told me "the best way to compete, is not to". I don't know if that's attributed to someone he was quoting, and I'm sure he wasn't the first to have the thought, but it always stuck with me.

Meaning if you make a digital back in the conventional sense you compete against the new models on the market as well as every used back out there.

If you make something completely different then you don't have to compete with those.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying you couldn't compete if you go head to head. It just seems more simple not to compete at all.

From this point of view a module built around the Mamiya 7 would seem like a winner. Many people ask for it and no solution is provided by any big player, nor seems forthcoming. It's an entirely different form factor and set of requirements/priorities than existing backs (which are all built with the assumption that there is space behind the film plane to place a thick digital back unit). It also seems a great place for CMOS medium format since being able to shoot at high ISO is a welcome addition to rangefinder applications.

If there was a kickstarter for that, and it looked well thought through, I'd fund it with personal money.
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: torger on February 25, 2014, 11:14:49 am
- what you'd like to see as useful features
- what platform should be a base for the mechanics/optics
- what skills you could bring to the table, and how much time you could contribute

I'm a software guy, work professionally with it, sell software, and also contributed lots to the open source community in various projects, including raw converters. Software folks is easier to come by though than those that can do hardware.

I think the target market should be users of tech cameras (and 4x5") and legacy MF cameras (V, RZ). Supporting Hassy H and 645DF+ would be less interesting I think, those interested in those system generally can pay the price for them. Integrating with mechanical-only cameras is also easier, just a flash sync and you're done. User-changeable mount would be nice.

I don't think tether-only is acceptable, although that would be much easier to design and build. Pro studio users can do with tether only, but customers of this type of back would mostly be amateurs and they want to shoot outdoors. So there must be a CF card and some sort of display with GUI.

Sensor is the big question. If I could choose freely I think a 56x56mm ~7.2um pixel sensor would be ideal for this type of project (60 megapixels), but custom sizes would probably be hard to fund. In lack of that a standard sensor like Dalsa's 48x36mm 48 megapixel CCD would be fine for tech cams and digital lenses, but 6x6 and 6x7 MF users may think it's a bit too small. I think it would be feasible to make a digital back targeted at only tech cam users though, thanks to the huge landscape photography interest there is in the amateur space.

I don't think CMOS is ready yet for this type of back. Too small, too tech cam unfriendly.

End customer price, no more than $6000-$8000 would be nice.
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: JV on February 25, 2014, 11:28:25 am
Thinking along the same lines, support formats other than 645 (6x6 and 6x7) which is currently not being done by the existing players.

Big question is obviously the availability (and price) of 56x56 sensors.

Output files should be in a standard format, none of that IIQ or 3FR nonsense.

IT guy but not very technical anymore, not sure how much I would be able to contribute.
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: Manoli on February 25, 2014, 11:56:22 am
I don't think tether-only is acceptable, although that would be much easier to design and build. Pro studio users can do with tether only, but customers of this type of back would mostly be amateurs and they want to shoot outdoors. So there must be a CF card and some sort of display with GUI.

Couldn't that be solved by offering an 'out' socket so that those who want tethering (or screen size) could output to a tablet ? As a design 'principle' - I'm in favour of modularity.
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: torger on February 25, 2014, 12:02:40 pm
More fantasies:

- DNG raw format, no more closed format b*llsh*t.
- Compact Flash support
- modern touch screen, more important to be strong in outdoor light and viewing angle than having one billion pixels though
- being open source, writing "apps" for the back should be possibly by anyone, like integrating a DoF app or LCC app or whatever, customizing the GUI
- USB3, to enable in the future for anyone interested in tethering, not needed in first release though (amateurs don't tether much)
- most gui effort put into making image review quick and effective. Quickly producing an image from the raw data might not bee too easy
- Real RAW histograms with true raw clip indicators for the ETTR fanatics.
- android-based OS?
- some basic weather-proofing

"Bad" things that could be accepted if necessary:
- some boot time (allows standard OS like android)
- fan (simplifies cooling challenge)
- limited ISO range (CCD)
- limited exposure time due to hot pixels (CCD, no hard limit though)
- no live view (CCD)
- somewhat battery hungry is okay
- could be ugly (ie Imacon Ixpress style)
- does not need to be class-leading in image performance, but must be competitive, especially in the DR, the 'geek' favourite property.

The availability and cost of sensor decides much about the product direction though. If 56x56 and a decent-looking ISO1600 could be feasible it would be a stronger focus on Hassy V and Mamiya RZ et al, with smaller sizes and/or worse ISO performance tech cams may be a stronger focus.

Unfortunately I don't think 56x56 is feasible, it's probably not too hard to come by a CCD in about that size but it would be some sort of astronomy or cartography sensor with strange color response and in need extreme cooling to perform well.
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: Rob C on February 25, 2014, 12:43:19 pm
So, far, it seems several of us here think that enabling the old Hassy V system with a square back is a good idea. I suppose that even if the sensor has to be a very little bit smaller than 56mm x 56mm, it would still do, just as long as the viewfinders were accurate and still large enough to give good viewing. Using the best part of a lens isn't a problem just as long as there's still a good bit of it left usable and you are not effectively dropping down a format size.

Perhaps effort in the direction of square sensor manufacture is the way to go; I'm not sure that a rangefinder such as the Mamaya 67 is the way ahead for digital focussing unless you are willing to resort to using a rear screen, which pretty much makes the camera's point redundant. I can't see an eye-level camera as something I particularly want to use on a tripod. If you really want to turn an rf body like that into a form of reflex viewer via a fake EVF viewfinder instead of an optical one, that's not my idea of a good idea. I see it as an amateur-aimed decision.

Rob C
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: jerome_m on February 25, 2014, 01:17:44 pm
I would like to point out that there are already a few open source CCD camera projects running for astronomy cameras. They may use smaller CCD chips, but there is some expertise in these projects on how to run the necessary electronics. A good start is:
http://opencamera.wikispot.org (http://opencamera.wikispot.org) (check the related links: although some are dead, they give the names of other projects). The original project was the Audine camera project (http://www.astrosurf.com/audine/English/index0.htm) which was quite successful amongst astronomers.

There are manufacturers of open-source astronomy cameras, for example Apogee (http://www.ccd.com). They have several CCD sizes available and can probably be convinced to use a bigger chip.

Astronomy cameras are tethered only.

On another directions, there are large CCDs available from some manufacturers. I know that Fairchild imaging (http://www.fairchildimaging.com/category/product-category/focal-plane-arrays/large-area-ccds) has a 8cm x 8cm 18 mpix chip. These chips are mainly made for X-ray machines and I suppose that there are other manufacturers.

Last but not least, there is open source software for existing cameras, mainly Canon and Panasonic.
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: Chris Livsey on February 25, 2014, 02:29:41 pm
Another example is this project;
http://m8raw2dng.de/
This uses the hacked, just a series of button pushes, to open the Leica M8 "service" menu. this gives access to a RAW file in the raw state before any manipulation. 14 bit data instead of the default 8 bit RAW output. There is also a tool to personally re-map the sensor.
Demonstrates what can be done.
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: jerome_m on February 25, 2014, 02:45:56 pm
There are quite a few alternative firmwares for existing cameras. For example, for Canon: CHDK (http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/CHDK).
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: torger on February 25, 2014, 02:49:41 pm
A large sensor could be key for a success, that's a way to be truly different. If the sensor is 56x56 everything else could be pretty lame and it would still be attractive :)

A monochrome and a bayer color edition of a basic 56x56 back. It would be perfect for Hassy V, Hy6, and every legacy 6x7 camera out there.

As far as I understand the dynamic range of the astronomy chips is a disaster though, unless you have like liquid cooling.

Here's data sheets of two large CCDs, neither is very suitable for this type of back:

80x80mm sensor: http://www.fairchildimaging.com/files/data_sheet_ccd_595.pdf
61x61mm sensor: http://www.fairchildimaging.com/files/ccd6161_data_sheet_january_2013.pdf
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 25, 2014, 04:37:34 pm
Hi,

Possible? Yes! Probable? No!

Why?

Significant initial investment. We would need a few samples of a sensor and evaluation board.

Can we develop a digital interface for sensor, or do we need an ASIC?

The sensor needs to be mounted with decent precision, can we do that?

Just some questions…

Best regards
Erik

Hi -

There are a variety of reasons why an open medium format camera platform makes sense. In this topic we could discuss whether there would be people interested in investing time and money or contributing such skills in such a product, and what is reasonably attainable in a reasonable amount of time.

In order to fix expectations, I would like to remind people that Linux Torvalds was not very skilled technically when he started Linux, but he got the project off the ground and the pre-existing GNU software suite made the system viable.

Also, the Linux project was  initially a big success for scientists and servers run by professional sysadmins, but  failed to convince the users of conventional desktop PCs. Of course things changed, and now a substantial fraction of the world's phones and tablets run Linux.

In the same way, I believe it would be feasible to do an open source tethered setup in limited time; external processing of the files could then take over: Many on this forum are skilled software engineers. I am not so sure that a mobile camera is an attainable short time goal. The Magic Lantern project has proved very useful to the film-making community, but what we discuss here starts from the sensor, not from an existing working and integrated platform.

Let's discuss -

- what you'd like to see as useful features
- what platform should be a base for the mechanics/optics
- what skills you could bring to the table, and how much time you could contribute


Edmund
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on February 25, 2014, 06:11:17 pm
It seems that DIY cameras have been quite well received in the astro community, because the cost (BOM) of components is less than $1K over the sensor cost.  Engineering (dud) sensors are usually cheap, so I guess any of us could afford to do this as a project. Production sensors for MF can be expected to cost, although 35mm chips might be cheaply available with fairly compatible architectures.

Maybe people here could indicate what they would like to do with a tethered liveview camera - that could help us choose an initial camera platform. In other words, it would be interesting to know whether people need to do AF or motor-driven focus stacking, tilt/shift, panorama stitching etc. or whether a back for an Alpa style device would attract interest.

Edmund
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: haplo602 on February 26, 2014, 02:11:19 am
I have an old Megavision S4 that I don't have the cables or interfaces to. So I took it apart :-) It contains a KAF-16801-CE sensor. The spec sheet and design documents do not look that complicated. The interface is quite easy, main problem is power delivery for me (not good in electronics). The ASIC can be any arm controller chip (cheapo STM Cortex-M4 ?) with proper cache. Anyway I'll try to hook it up to a devel board and see what I get.

Anyway, the basic mount should be Hasselblad V, since it is adaptable to about any camera mount there is. Not self contained, the processing/interface done by a smartphone (iPhone, Android) via USB. This makes the back lighter and cheaper since almost anybody has a smartphone these days. Also enables use of already available smartphone apps for processing images and smartphone CPUs are impressive these days (quad cores and such). DNG format RAW.

Sensor size is not deciding, the platform could be made sensor agnostic based on the chip family ...

However the above is just wishes so far :-))) I have little programing skills to contribute.
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: bpepz on February 26, 2014, 08:34:53 am
I have an old Megavision S4 that I don't have the cables or interfaces to. So I took it apart :-) It contains a KAF-16801-CE sensor. The spec sheet and design documents do not look that complicated. The interface is quite easy, main problem is power delivery for me (not good in electronics). The ASIC can be any arm controller chip (cheapo STM Cortex-M4 ?) with proper cache. Anyway I'll try to hook it up to a devel board and see what I get.

Anyway, the basic mount should be Hasselblad V, since it is adaptable to about any camera mount there is. Not self contained, the processing/interface done by a smartphone (iPhone, Android) via USB. This makes the back lighter and cheaper since almost anybody has a smartphone these days. Also enables use of already available smartphone apps for processing images and smartphone CPUs are impressive these days (quad cores and such). DNG format RAW.

Sensor size is not deciding, the platform could be made sensor agnostic based on the chip family ...

However the above is just wishes so far :-))) I have little programing skills to contribute.

That is really cool. I really like the idea of offloading the processing to a smart phone. I wonder if down the road with increased computing power, and decent firmware, you could actually get higher quality files out of existing sensors. At the very least you would have faster processing.

This actually bring ups a whole new idea for me, taking old DBs and switching out the electronics in them. Take some  ancient H25s and put brand new processing in them, usb 3.0 connectivity, LCD via smartphone, stuff like that. If such a service existed where I could send an old back in for an "upgrade" like this I would happily throw down some big bucks on something like that.
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: haplo602 on February 26, 2014, 09:42:08 am
That is really cool. I really like the idea of offloading the processing to a smart phone. I wonder if down the road with increased computing power, and decent firmware, you could actually get higher quality files out of existing sensors. At the very least you would have faster processing.

This actually bring ups a whole new idea for me, taking old DBs and switching out the electronics in them. Take some  ancient H25s and put brand new processing in them, usb 3.0 connectivity, LCD via smartphone, stuff like that. If such a service existed where I could send an old back in for an "upgrade" like this I would happily throw down some big bucks on something like that.

hold your horses :-)

CCD chips require some analog to digital circuitry around them and decent power delivery. Also there are some limits to what the CCD sensor itself can deliver. It's a nice idea, but the RoI would be very small if any ...
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: lance_schad on February 26, 2014, 10:00:19 am
Eronald,
I was at the International Center for Photography yesterday and I walked past the gift store and thought that this may be a good way to for you to possibly jumpstart the project.
(http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0241/3311/products/Product1_1024x1024.jpg?v=1371237370)

All kidding aside it sounds like an interesting project and wish you the best of luck with it.


Lance


Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: torger on February 26, 2014, 10:13:36 am
I'd suspect it will be quite difficult to get low noise out of the CCD sensor, ie you can't just put the components in any order you'd like and hope you'll get maximum image quality out of it, but you'd need to do some tricks to avoid thermal noise etc. To satisfy the customer I think one would have to be pretty competitive on the DR property.

Making the back tether only and with mobile phone interface (wireless etc) is interesting, but I think it would be very valuable to have a stand-alone back so one should look into how difficult that part is. I would imagine that today there would exist kits with display and processing to do the GUI part.

Looking how much issues there are with legacy backs and Compact Flash I get the impression that making a compact flash reader that works with all cards in all conditions is quite complicated.
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on February 26, 2014, 10:26:00 am
Torger,

I would be thankful of you discussed my proposal, not somebody else's.

Let le stress the point again: CMOS IS A BREAKTHROUGH FOR SENSOR HACKERS BECAUSE IT IS DIGITAL, EASY TO INTERFACE, AND HAS LIVEVIEW SO ONE CAN COMPOSE ON THE COMPUTER.

I agree that redoing CCD stuff is a pain. Not an impossibly large pain though, because the astro community have been doing it - the circuitry is already out there. I think that an open source CCD back would be a hack of last resort because you can now buy older backs cheaply, so the only real purpose would be to get eg. 80MP performance at a reasonable price. BUT YOU DON'T GET LIVEVIEW FOR FREE.

However CMOS sensors are digital, so there are no noise issues except thermal dissipation, and by tethering and doing the heavy lifting on an attached device, you bypass all the painful issues with writing files and preparing previews.

Edmund

I'd suspect it will be quite difficult to get low noise out of the CCD sensor, ie you can't just put the components in any order you'd like and hope you'll get maximum image quality out of it, but you'd need to do some tricks to avoid thermal noise etc. To satisfy the customer I think one would have to be pretty competitive on the DR property.

Making the back tether only and with mobile phone interface (wireless etc) is interesting, but I think it would be very valuable to have a stand-alone back so one should look into how difficult that part is. I would imagine that today there would exist kits with display and processing to do the GUI part.

Looking how much issues there are with legacy backs and Compact Flash I get the impression that making a compact flash reader that works with all cards in all conditions is quite complicated.
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: torger on February 26, 2014, 10:46:16 am
I would be thankful of you discussed my proposal, not somebody else's.

Ah okay, did not understand your proposal was locked to CMOS, sorry.

With CMOS I'd say it's not a suitable time to make an open source digital back :-\. There is only one option which is the Sony 44x33mm sensor, and I think the Pentax offer will be cheap enough, and for those that want a detachable back the sensor is a bit smallish (for V mount or RZ), and for technical cameras it has too large issues with crosstalk to work well with technical wides. I've made quite thorough analysis of the crosstalk issue on tech wides over at getdpi.

I guess some would still like to have it, but I would personally not be too interested in the back. I'd like to hear those that would be interested in such a back what they would use it for. I'd guess for some sort of table-top technical photography. But for that application you could get an Arca-Swiss MF-two and a Sony A7r, a 36x24mm sensor is not that much smaller, and soon the 50+ megapixel is coming to that.

I think what people mainly desire in the 'MF geek space' is larger sensors for the legacy MF SLR systems (hassy H and mamiya RZ) and the Hy6, the larger sensor is needed to get the 'look' from the the format's lenses, ie large sensor area is more important than resolution, and live view is of little interest. High ISO would be nice for those working in natural light though. When it comes to tech users I think people are quite satisfied with sensor sizes but lower prices would be nice, and good wide angle compatibility is a must, which the current CMOS doesn't provide. Live view would be great of course, but without wide angle compatibility it's a no go.
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on February 26, 2014, 10:51:11 am
Yes, Hasselblad V mount sounds like a VERY SENSIBLE idea, because there are plenty of camera test mules out there, put out to pasture :) and there are adapters out there for lots of interesting systems like Alpa and Mamiya.

Also, I think quite a few pros would be happy to have a tethered V in the studio for portraits.

I think family chip interfaces are fairly similar, so if we get one chip from a family done, all others will probably fall. In this sense, it might be worth doing prototype work with a smaller Sony sensor.

Edmund

Quote
Anyway, the basic mount should be Hasselblad V, since it is adaptable to about any camera mount there is. Not self contained, the processing/interface done by a smartphone (iPhone, Android) via USB. This makes the back lighter and cheaper since almost anybody has a smartphone these days. Also enables use of already available smartphone apps for processing images and smartphone CPUs are impressive these days (quad cores and such). DNG format RAW.

Sensor size is not deciding, the platform could be made sensor agnostic based on the chip family ...

However the above is just wishes so far :-))) I have little programing skills to contribute.
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: hjulenissen on February 26, 2014, 10:55:47 am
I have seen references to open source cinema cameras. Although technically different, perhaps these projects can give some insight into practical dos and don'ts?

https://www.apertus.org/axiom
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: G* on February 26, 2014, 10:58:55 am
Hi, for me the larger would be the better, and I think that would be a comfortable niche above P1/Leaf/Hassy/Pentax. What are the problems with large sensors? Production environment? Maybe nobody has tried to build a machine that produces large sensors because nobody sees a market there. One should just try, maybe. Or increasing number of errors on one chip and therefore increasing costs until you have produced an error-free sensor? Maybe one should try harder to overcome errors (blind sensels, whatever) with software. When I have really wild dreams I’m seeing a digital 4x5.  :-)
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on February 26, 2014, 11:04:34 am
Torger,

 These are interesting thoughts.

 I believe the large Sony sensor will exist in other versions, among which mono and multispectral, so there might be versions which don't suffer from color crosstalk, and audiences which don't come here - eg. repro for paintings.

 Regarding the A7/A7R,  as these chips are from the same family and CMOS too, we can probably use the smaller ones to prototype the larger ones; an offshoot of this work might be a very cheap 35mm back, and an offshoot from this might be someone like Arca Swiss making a miniature tech camera that can work well with 35mm sensors - just think of how nice that would be!

 Frankly, I think that a miniature Alpa-style 35mm camera with interchangeable backs and iPhone display will appear sooner or later, even if people have to saw Sony cameras in two to make the backs. Taking a hammer to an existing product to make a new one is a well-known design technique :) However one reason to start with MF is the cameras already exist and larger devices with larger tolerances are easier to deal with mechanically.

 I don't know what people really "want". This is the reason why we are having this discussion ...

Edmund

 
Ah okay, did not understand your proposal was locked to CMOS, sorry.

With CMOS I'd say it's not a suitable time to make an open source digital back :-\. There is only one option which is the Sony 44x33mm sensor, and I think the Pentax offer will be cheap enough, and for those that want a detachable back the sensor is a bit smallish (for V mount or RZ), and for technical cameras it has too large issues with crosstalk to work well with technical wides. I've made quite thorough analysis of the crosstalk issue on tech wides over at getdpi.

I guess some would still like to have it, but I would personally not be too interested in the back. I'd like to hear those that would be interested in such a back what they would use it for. I'd guess for some sort of table-top technical photography. But for that application you could get an Arca-Swiss MF-two and a Sony A7r, a 36x24mm sensor is not that much smaller, and soon the 50+ megapixel is coming to that.

I think what people mainly desire in the 'MF geek space' is larger sensors for the legacy MF SLR systems (hassy H and mamiya RZ) and the Hy6, the larger sensor is needed to get the 'look' from the the format's lenses, ie large sensor area is more important than resolution, and live view is of little interest. High ISO would be nice for those working in natural light though. When it comes to tech users I think people are quite satisfied with sensor sizes but lower prices would be nice, and good wide angle compatibility is a must, which the current CMOS doesn't provide. Live view would be great of course, but without wide angle compatibility it's a no go.
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on February 26, 2014, 11:05:54 am
I have seen references to open source cinema cameras. Although technically different, perhaps these projects can give some insight into practical dos and don'ts?

https://www.apertus.org/axiom

Absolutely. This is a very serious modular project. Of course, it is aimed at a smaller sensor, and is electronically and computationally much more difficult than what we are discussing, due to the huge data rates of moving images.  

Edmund
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on February 26, 2014, 11:08:47 am
Hi, for me the larger would be the better, and I think that would be a comfortable niche above P1/Leaf/Hassy/Pentax. What are the problems with large sensors? Production environment? Maybe nobody has tried to build a machine that produces large sensors because nobody sees a market there. One should just try, maybe. Or increasing number of errors on one chip and therefore increasing costs until you have produced an error-free sensor? Maybe one should try harder to overcome errors (blind sensels, whatever) with software. When I have really wild dreams I’m seeing a digital 4x5.  :-)

This is an interesting set of questions. I believe there are some sensors out there but they are CCD-based. However if you would do some research and report back to us ...

Edmund
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: Fine_Art on February 26, 2014, 11:37:29 am
Hi -

There are a variety of reasons why an open medium format camera platform makes sense. In this topic we could discuss whether there would be people interested in investing time and money or contributing such skills in such a product, and what is reasonably attainable in a reasonable amount of time.

In order to fix expectations, I would like to remind people that Linux Torvalds was not very skilled technically when he started Linux, but he got the project off the ground and the pre-existing GNU software suite made the system viable.

Also, the Linux project was  initially a big success for scientists and servers run by professional sysadmins, but  failed to convince the users of conventional desktop PCs. Of course things changed, and now a substantial fraction of the world's phones and tablets run Linux.

In the same way, I believe it would be feasible to do an open source tethered setup in limited time; external processing of the files could then take over: Many on this forum are skilled software engineers. I am not so sure that a mobile camera is an attainable short time goal. The Magic Lantern project has proved very useful to the film-making community, but what we discuss here starts from the sensor, not from an existing working and integrated platform.

Let's discuss -

- what you'd like to see as useful features
- what platform should be a base for the mechanics/optics
- what skills you could bring to the table, and how much time you could contribute


Edmund

Just to be clear, you are talking about a camera OS, not a camera.

Once you start making a real device there are all sorts of quality standards that come up. CE mark. Safety standards based on destructive testing of many units showing it will not start a fire. It will not shock anyone. Industry standards of warranty service.

The software industry has always got to weasel out based on the idea the user can delete something that does not work. The system pretends software can not damage anything. They then wrap their product in EULA to indemnify themselves. This is all something that real companies could not do with real products.

It might be better to make an open source 135 camera format OS. You would get far more coders interested.
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: Fine_Art on February 26, 2014, 11:43:09 am
Off topic:

If the software industry was held to the same standards as other industries, you would not have weekly "security patches" of dysfunctional crap. You would not have hackers botting your PC or taking your credit card data.

The current state of software is a disgrace. It is so because everyone lets them avoid all accountability.
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: EricWHiss on February 26, 2014, 11:57:01 am
I'm definitely interested in this project …   

Larger sensors seem more appealing - and I wonder if the 6.1x6.1 sensor someone linked to earlier could be made to work with the Rollei's, RZ's, Mamiya 7's, Fuji GX680, Tech cameras, etc?   Going bigger and square would be my interest.   

To me a back with the sensor standing proud of the rest with some kind of adapter plate with pass through electronics is going to be the most useful to all. You can't exactly start with a Hasselblad V and make it fit to everything.   Plus I know that tech camera users are always looking for a few more millimeters to get the widest lens possible.

I think some of the astronomy sensor packages might offer some ideas - built in pixel binning, active coolers, ability to control the read out speed (which affects noise).  Overall more user control would be awesome! 

I'm okay with a tethered first solution without on back display screen,  but like the ideas of using smart phones for control or previews.
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: Ken R on February 26, 2014, 12:00:06 pm
My opinion on the subject:

#1 The new camera / back MUST have Live View and a very nice screen on board. It should be a self-contained unit. No cables needed for power or anything but still have wifi for external control if desired and USB3 for tethering. (If its a hassle to use it people will just grab a A7R or D800E)
#2 The new camera / back MUST work with a wide range of lenses. Yes, from the excellent Canon TS-E II lenses to Rodenstock HR-W's. That should limit sensor size to about 54mmx40mm approx. but the does not rule out a smaller sensor like the one in the IQ250 since the Canon TS-E lenses are plenty wide enough to satisfy the wide angle needs of just about any user. This is HUGE, the A7R is already tapping into an extremely large number of Canon lens owners and doing well. It is a BIG market.
#3 The new camera / back MUST cost less than $10,000
#4 The new camera / back MUST have a sensor with at least 50MP and perform well in low light / long exposures and reasonably high iso. (anything less and people will just grab a A7R or D800E like they do now)

So, I am thinking that the new product should be a digital back like unit with a shutter unit in front (as short as possible) and with interchangeable lens mounts or adapters so that almost any lens can be used whether they have an integrated shutter or not. An optional external viewfinder would also be awesome (no need to design a new one just make the ones already available work) with viewing modes that aid manual focusing when off the tripod.

Think of it as a much more refined, compact and integrated (and affordable) FPS unit or Hartblei B1 camera that can be used handheld also if desired.
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: torger on February 26, 2014, 12:32:10 pm
My opinion on the subject:

The sum of #1 to #4 seems like an IQ260 with CMOS. I don't think we could compete on sole rational image quality and feature set, ie make better products than Phase One and price them 1/4 of the price. Making a fantastic all-around consumer product I don't feel likely. The image quality of the 135 systems won't stop with A7r or D800. 50 megapixel sensors are coming and the Otus lens line is expanding.

I think it's more reasonable to think that a back made in a project like this would look more like backs did 15-20 years ago. Like the 60x60mm tether-only Dicomed Bigshot, those were made with standard components by very small companies. The products look ugly home-brew style, had limited feature set but they could produce images with larger sensor area than anyone else. You'd have to focus on a niche within the niche.

I see two opportunities. 1) make a large sensor back for 6x6 and 6x7 cameras. Phase One and Hassy won't go there. You're in your own niche, and with the Hy6 you don't only need to rely on legacy cameras. 2) make a back aimed at budget tech cam landscape photography, to attract amateurs of similar mindset as those that play with 4x5" film today. It's not only about having the highest resolution and widest DR, some like the "old-school" feel of these cameras and just need a decent back they can afford.

Somewhat going back to the time a digital back was nothing more than a drop-in replacement for a film magazine. If it would lack display, letting it look like a film magazine would be quite cool actually. I think no display could work if you still have onboard power and storage and could get decent integration with a phone/tablet.

The big gain with no display is however to go tethered all the way have no storage or raw format processing and draw power from cable, just send the raw signal from the sensor through the cable and solve the rest in software on the computer.
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: Kumar on February 26, 2014, 12:55:00 pm
Is putting two (or more) Sony A7 sensors side-by-side and stitching the resulting images feasible? There may be small differences in image quality between the two sensors, and other problems, but is it doable at all?

Kumar
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: jerome_m on February 26, 2014, 01:11:56 pm
Is putting two (or more) Sony A7 sensors side-by-side and stitching the resulting images feasible? There may be small differences in image quality between the two sensors, and other problems, but is it doable at all?

This has been tried by Minolta on the RD-3000 and RD-175  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minolta_RD-175)cameras, which used 2 and 3 CCDs at the time to increase resolution. In a nutshell: it was not a good idea. The optics needed in front of the CCD limited the system considerably.
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: Christoph C. Feldhaim on February 26, 2014, 02:13:28 pm
I'd like to have a digital back working on a view camera with:
- large sensor area (~60*60 mm or more)
- 24-36 MP would be enough, more wouldn't hurt - with a 60 mm sensor and 36 MP this
   would be 10µ pixels - lots of room for great full well capacity and awesome low ISO ...
- Long exposures up to many many minutes (60?)
- great color filtering and awesome profiles
- great angular response without need of any LCC stuff.
- Also working with old MF systems, like Hassy V, Contax, Mamiya RZ ...
- great screen with live view and focus peeking at any place of the image / live view interface to a tablet (large screen !!!)
- True RAW histogram
- Interface to view camera parameters, like speed, f-stop, lens, shift and tilt data ...
   (maybe just an interface to enter this data manually in a quick and easy way)

Cheers
~Chris
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on February 26, 2014, 03:52:20 pm

The big gain with no display is however to go tethered all the way have no storage or raw format processing and draw power from cable, just send the raw signal from the sensor through the cable and solve the rest in software on the computer.

Yes, this is why I believe the project would be feasible. Digital signals can be transmitted across a cable.

The sensor would be in a metal cartridge with a heatsink on one side and a cover/IR filter on the other.
Suitable external clips on the sensor cartridge would allow the adaptation of the desired camera mount plate and there would be  easily accessible vernier adjustment of the sensor plane.

A local connector would mate the sensor cartridge with a local electronics pod, and then a tough external connector would mount outside whatever back housing is used to tether to the computer. IO wires from the local pod could go to the camera's sync port and other camera connectors.

With such a modular concept, one can design and prototype pieces fairly independently. An updated electronics pod might later contain a full processor and a wifi interface. Users could do field upgrades.

Edmund
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: MichaelEzra on February 26, 2014, 04:38:34 pm
It would be most flexible/customizable to standardize on a smartphone-based control/interface, similar in concept to Sony's QX10 and QX100.

We might also want RawTherapee compatibility:)

The housing can be designed to be elegant and 3D printed!
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: Joe Towner on February 26, 2014, 05:49:37 pm
I had a long list of things to consider but timed-out and didn't save it prior to posting...

- Working within current shipping chips, it figures safe to assume it's either Dalsa or Sony.  I would want to see what pricing is like for engineering/dev board samples of both would cost.  Toss in if there is an ability to dev against a 35mm cmos from Sony and have that all move over to the 44x33 sensor (cheaper initial testing).

- Who's the target user?  It can't be everything to everyone, so what is the ideal?  For form factor, something Alpa-ish would be nice and simple, where we can do 'lens boards' to offer up larger compatibility.

- If we dump the screen and it's associated electronics, making it a tethered specific creation, would it drop the costs significantly?

- Can we do a v1 that's with 35mm chips cheap enough to prove it to do a larger product?
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on February 26, 2014, 07:13:31 pm
Joe,


I believe when firms sell you and SDK they will sell you "engineering grade" chips which have defects but are cheap and useful for testing. I don't think the electronics of the SDK is really different in price depending on the size of the sensor within the same family.

The electronic design toolkit specific to this project of this is not costly IMHO - less than an MF lens cap :) what is a nuisance to start up  is the mechanical design necessary to make the "sensor cartridge" and get the thermal issues and cover glass right. Although it is quite possible that one of the industrial camera companies already has a housing that would be suitable, if not I am sure they could make one up for a reasonable price.

The motivational side here is that anyone with an SDK gets images from day 1, provided he can project an image on the sensor, and from the day we have a mechanical mount, anyone with the camera for that mount can start doing studio files with a hacked version of something like dcraw, although presumably the calibration will be off, the workflow painful, and the setup very iffy. The idea of using a digital CMOS chip allows us to move this design to a toughened version, while in the CCD world analog electronic noise is a really hard issue.

I expect the sensor cartridge would initially mount on a Hasselblad V mount, possibly even obtained from A Hasselblad film back or clone. This would then mount on a Hassy or an Alpa.

Of course Eric will be welcome to help supply Rollei plates :)


Edmund
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: alan_b on February 26, 2014, 07:21:48 pm
Thinking as a potential customer, I start with use cases and product types.  It seems like some shortcuts could be found by modifying existing (forthcoming) products.

1. Small, inexpensive CMOS back (35mm size):  Modify an A7R for easier use on a view/tech camera (maybe not necessary with forthcoming adapter from Arca ––> M2)

2. Live View MFDB at less price than the Phase/HB offerings: Modify the new Pentax

3. Large-sensor (6x6 or larger) MFDB or camera insert: This seems like the ideal target for a ground-up design, also the most likely to be viable when the user has to accept compromises like tethered-only, no live view.

Edit: grammar & clarity
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: EricWHiss on February 26, 2014, 08:09:52 pm
Would love to see 5 axis sensor image stabilization like in the Oly 4/3rds cameras in MFDB.  Woah! That would be amazing!
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: synn on February 26, 2014, 09:05:29 pm
I am no scientist, but considering the scientists have no qualms offering advise to artists here, maybe the reverse is also welcome! :)

Here are a few questions I have regarding this whole project:

1) It's not impossible to get a lab prototype. But is that the extent of this project? Are you looking at manufacturing, certification and everything? Who's gonna take charge of that?

2) No matter how cheap the test kits are (If it was actually as cheap as an MF lens cap, I'd wire USD 20 right now to Sony and get one. Why not?), there's still a significant investment involved. You're looking at 5 figures for sure (The sensor is only one part of the equation). There are enough complaints on this forum about spending that sorts of amount on MF vs spending a lot less on 35mm. What exactly is different about this that will make people donate significant amounts of money into a backyard project; sums they are reluctant to invest in functional, off the rack camera gear?

3) How exactly will the responsibilities be delegated? Members here reside in various geographic locations. Would all the hardware be at one person's residence and the rest provide their contributions via the internet? I can't imagine some fragile electronics being sent across the world a few times during the course of development.

4) Marketing question: Who exactly is the target audience for this product?

 - Is it only academia?
 - Is it a 35mm format shooter who can spend maybe 20% more than his current top of the line body?
 - Is it a current day MF shooter who will find it justifiable to discard his existing MF kit for this?
 - For any of the above, would the project team provide a level of support that is at least on par with the user's existing platforms to make this switch justifiable?

5) Continued from the above, here's a question from an MF shooter.
What will this project offer me, a Credo 40 shooter who mostly does portraits to switch over and buy one of these? Is the promise "Everything my current camera does, only better and at a cheaper price"?

Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on February 26, 2014, 10:13:33 pm
Dear Synn,

 In the US quite a few enthusiasts build their own planes from kits. This gives them access to a hobby and a tool which they could not otherwise afford. In the same way, I am proposing defining a DIY Medium format kit which can then be used by enthusiasts while tethered to a computer.

 Quite clearly such a kit is not for you: it won't take images quickly and reliably, will need to be rebooted occasionally, will not work with c1 or Lightroom, but will work with RPP, dcraw and friends, will not provide a composite Jpeg histogram, but will give simple channel by channel Raw histograms. It will not have Douge+Steve support or 24 hour replacement policies, and it will break if your beautiful models sneeze near it.

 This kit is a geeks' delight. It will be adaptable to almost anything as the sensor cartridge will be fairly robust and remountable, spare interface connections will be provided if possible so people can drive eg. a color filter wheel from the computer, or fire several flash units in sequence, and every setting the sensor has will be exposed. Users will be free to order and deploy monochrome or multispectral sensors if such are available.

 As a kit such an object will not have, nor does it need certification; however I do not intend it to be offered anywhere except the US, Europe and Japan, until I can request an opinion on export controls.  This version is strictly envisaged as being used by people who are comfortable with computers and lab equipment, and who are either hobbyists, or professional photographers who see a need for exceptionally great control and are familiar with purpose-built devices.

 I hope this answers your questions - clearly you are a busy commercial photographer, and better served by reliable and supported equipment such as is marketed by Phase One, Hasselblad and Sinar.

Edmund



I am no scientist, but considering the scientists have no qualms offering advise to artists here, maybe the reverse is also welcome! :)

Here are a few questions I have regarding this whole project:

1) It's not impossible to get a lab prototype. But is that the extent of this project? Are you looking at manufacturing, certification and everything? Who's gonna take charge of that?

2) No matter how cheap the test kits are (If it was actually as cheap as an MF lens cap, I'd wire USD 20 right now to Sony and get one. Why not?), there's still a significant investment involved. You're looking at 5 figures for sure (The sensor is only one part of the equation). There are enough complaints on this forum about spending that sorts of amount on MF vs spending a lot less on 35mm. What exactly is different about this that will make people donate significant amounts of money into a backyard project; sums they are reluctant to invest in functional, off the rack camera gear?

3) How exactly will the responsibilities be delegated? Members here reside in various geographic locations. Would all the hardware be at one person's residence and the rest provide their contributions via the internet? I can't imagine some fragile electronics being sent across the world a few times during the course of development.

4) Marketing question: Who exactly is the target audience for this product?

 - Is it only academia?
 - Is it a 35mm format shooter who can spend maybe 20% more than his current top of the line body?
 - Is it a current day MF shooter who will find it justifiable to discard his existing MF kit for this?
 - For any of the above, would the project team provide a level of support that is at least on par with the user's existing platforms to make this switch justifiable?

5) Continued from the above, here's a question from an MF shooter.
What will this project offer me, a Credo 40 shooter who mostly does portraits to switch over and buy one of these? Is the promise "Everything my current camera does, only better and at a cheaper price"?


Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: synn on February 26, 2014, 10:18:03 pm
Dear Synn,

 In the US quite a few enthusiasts build their own planes from kits. This gives them access to a hobby and a tool which they could not otherwise afford. In the same way, I am proposing defining a DIY Medium format kit which can then be used by enthusiasts while tethered to a computer.

 Quite clearly such a kit is not for you: it won't take images quickly and reliably, will need to be rebooted occasionally, will not work with c1 or Lightroom, but will work with RPP, dcraw and friends, will not provide a Jpeg histogram, but will give Raw histograms. It will not have Douge+Steve support or 24 hour replacement policies, and it will break if your beautiful models sneeze near it.

 This kit is a geeks' delight. It will be adaptable to almost anything as the sensor cartridge will be fairly robust and remountable, spare interface connections will be provided if possible so people can drive eg. a color filter wheel from the computer, or fire several flash units in sequence, and every setting the sensor has will be exposed. Users will be free to order and deploy monochrome or multispectral sensors if such are available.

 As a kit such an object does not have, nor does it need certification. This version is strictly envisaged as being used by people who are comfortable with computers and lab equipment, and who are either hobbyists, or professional photographers who see a need for exceptionally great control and are familiar with purpose-built devices.

 I hope this answers your questions - clearly you are a busy commercial photographer, and better served by reliable and supported equipment such as is marketed by Phase One, Hasselblad and Sinar.

Edmund




Thanks for clarifying that this is a hobby kit and nothing more. Your earlier response to Doug etc. led me to believe that there are commercial aspirations for this project.

Doug,

 I would expect that if something like this takes off there would be some specialist vendors like you who would qualify the hardware and distribute it. 

Edmund


My bad, clearly.
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on February 26, 2014, 10:25:52 pm
Thanks for clarifying that this is a hobby kit and nothing more. Your earlier response to Doug etc. led me to believe that there are commercial aspirations for this project.

My bad, clearly.
Dear Synn,

Doug or Steve will be able to distribute and even originate kit parts if they wish to do so - some of their museum or academic customers may need a community-supported  open source kit camera for very special applications. You will doubtless recall that Masters and Johnson designed a special purpose camera for their research. I hope I have sufficiently satisfied your curiosity. :)

Edmund
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: synn on February 26, 2014, 10:40:56 pm
Doug or Steve will be able to distribute kit parts if they wish to do so - some of their museum or academic customers may need a community-supported  kit camera for very special applications. You will doubtless recall that Masters and Johnson designed a special purpose camera for their research. I hope I have sufficiently satisfied your curiosity. :)

Edmund

Hopefully, this would be the last edit to your post and I would not have to re-think my reply after I post it.  :D

Yes indeed, my curiosity has been satisfied. As you've very clearly explained, there's nothing of particular interest to a working photographer in this project, so all I can contribute is my sincere well wishes for you and your team. I hope you'll come up with something that will teach some guys in Denmark, Sweden and Japan a thing or two about medium format imaging!

Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on February 26, 2014, 10:51:11 pm
I think most people would be very surprised to hear of any modern photographic technology being invented or perfected in France, although the people here have a great respect for art.

This project basically consists of a wire between a sensor and a computer, so it really isn't rocket science.

The big CCD backs employ very sophisticated analog engineering and signal processing to keep noise under control, and hardening such designs in an electronically noisy environment is difficult, an expertise which the designers of remote sensing devices such as Kodak and Dalsa have historically possessed but have not always been allowed to bring to the open market.

The arrival of digital-output CMOS technology appears to be disruptive; Sony's decision to resell their sensors is admirable.

Edmund

Hopefully, this would be the last edit to your post and I would not have to re-think my reply after I post it.  :D

Yes indeed, my curiosity has been satisfied. As you've very clearly explained, there's nothing of particular interest to a working photographer in this project, so all I can contribute is my sincere well wishes for you and your team. I hope you'll come up with something that will teach some guys in Denmark, Sweden and Japan a thing or two about medium format imaging!


Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: torger on February 27, 2014, 01:57:34 am
Yes, this is why I believe the project would be feasible. Digital signals can be transmitted across a cable.

The sensor would be in a metal cartridge with a heatsink on one side and a cover/IR filter on the other.

The digital back would look quite similar to Sinar 54m I guess. Sinar did have stand-alone backs for a while but now today go with the tethered-only concept again, I'm guessing that's because their customer base shoot tethered anyway, and tethered-only backs have the advantage of minimizing hardware design, and making software design easier.

This type of project could prove to be a good alternative to a Sinar back actually, it fits about the same niche. Multishot will be lacking though. If you'd want that the hardware design gets more complicated and I guess you'd need a patent license.

(http://www.krphotodigital.com/images/sinar-54M-00.jpg)
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: Kumar on February 27, 2014, 04:19:46 am
Sinar had the CyberKit, a portable dedicated computer with a screen, much like today's tablets. It could save upto 1600 images, and could be used for review, focus-check, etc. In short, it was a specialized computer for Sinarbacks. Megavision also had an OQO computer that went along with their 22mp backs. Richard Chang showed it to me in 2006, and I thought it was a great concept. Unfortunately, at that time, everyone wanted self-contained backs, and these ideas didn't last long. Perhaps it's time to revive them?

Kumar
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: haplo602 on February 27, 2014, 04:36:23 am
Edmund, have a look at Dalsa web and the pictures of their dev kit. I think it partly covers the modularity you proposed.

Anyway one can also start with a CCD just to prototype some parts of the design (i.e. bus/interface between chip module and processing part).

I do agree that CMOS ships are much easier to work with as they put out digital data already, not need for A/Ds and complicated timing schemes. The only problem is that cmos chips readily available are very small (even 35mm chips are a problem to get).
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: hjulenissen on February 27, 2014, 05:20:00 am
This has been tried by Minolta on the RD-3000 and RD-175  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minolta_RD-175)cameras, which used 2 and 3 CCDs at the time to increase resolution. In a nutshell: it was not a good idea. The optics needed in front of the CCD limited the system considerably.
Considering that using lenses with large image circles seems to be a significant goal, and large image sensors seems to be expensive.

What about using a common FF/crop CMOS sensor, and moving it mechanically to scan the image circle of a MF lens? Sort of like scanning backs, only using a 2d sensor instead of a 1d strip.

All kinds of mechanical/precision challenges, and a final product with some significant limitations, but avoiding the problem of finding a good, economical 56x56mm sensor.

-h
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on February 27, 2014, 06:09:23 am
One could also have a vernier move the back on the Z axis within the case under computer control and use the computer to set focus.

Anything like this would be left to the user to explore, mechanical mods, would be possible  as I envision the sensor itself to be on a small easily detachable casing that then mates to the camera mount.The cartridge could equally well be mated to a movable carriage.

I envision the electronics coming with an onboard interface module of some kind, maybe just an Arduino, that can control external devices under program control, simplifying all sorts of software-controlled imaging eg.  motor driven sensor movements , focus stacking, camera panning or translation as well as control of external devices. People would need to rig up mechanics, eg a turntable to move an object in front of the camera, but computer control would be easy to synch in the software.

Also, there should be a way to trigger acquiring a frame very quickly. The general idea is that people would be encouraged to mix image acquisition and device control, although many present users of this forum would probably just use a fixed Hasselblad V mount, and possibly an old 500 series Hassy to take 50MP studio portraits :)

Flexibility is the whole point of an open-source project. An interesting question open for debate here is whether we should be open to consider using a smaller sensor initially. I am not sure that something the size of a 35mm full-frame sensor in an MF mount makes practical sense, but there are entertaining possibilities of computer-controlled focus, shift and tilt, maybe even using an APS sensor with 35mm lenses that should be debated; with resolutions creeping up maybe a matchbox-sized computer-controlled view camera taking Zeiss Otus lenses is what the studio photography world really needs :)

If one goes to the trouble of using  an open source system, one should at least gain some flexibility in compensation of the inconvenience of using a prototype :)

Edmund


Considering that using lenses with large image circles seems to be a significant goal, and large image sensors seems to be expensive.

What about using a common FF/crop CMOS sensor, and moving it mechanically to scan the image circle of a MF lens? Sort of like scanning backs, only using a 2d sensor instead of a 1d strip.

All kinds of mechanical/precision challenges, and a final product with some significant limitations, but avoiding the problem of finding a good, economical 56x56mm sensor.

-h
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: MrSmith on February 27, 2014, 06:11:21 am
i have nothing of value to contribute to development. ;D

but thinking out loud after reading some of the comments people seem to want to make an add-on to existing cameras? surely just making a mirror less box with a large bayonet mount but short sensor to lens distance and a decent screen on the back for composing would be easier? usb3 tethering plus cf/sd card. the idea being that with an adapter you could use just about any lens you want with live view focus

basically an overblown A7r without the viewfinder.
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: EricWHiss on February 27, 2014, 12:33:57 pm
Am I the only one still not convinced CMOS is better?  Let's just say the IQ 250 samples didn't win me over.   Right now, I'd rather have  CCD.  If CMOS is easier to implement then fine, but I think there are existing CCD sensors with a bigger footprint - like the 6.1cm x 6.1cm chip linked to earlier and no available.

I imagined we'd have a box like that Sinar 54 Torger showed that wirelessly connected to a smartphone for previews or tethered to a computer.  I don't expect much from the first pass.   
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on February 27, 2014, 12:53:14 pm
Am I the only one still not convinced CMOS is better?  Let's just say the IQ 250 samples didn't win me over.   Right now, I'd rather have  CCD.  If CMOS is easier to implement then fine, but I think there are existing CCD sensors with a bigger footprint - like the 6.1cm x 6.1cm chip linked to earlier and no available.

I imagined we'd have a box like that Sinar 54 Torger showed that wirelessly connected to a smartphone for previews or tethered to a computer.  I don't expect much from the first pass.  


Eric,

Would DHW be interested in supporting an open digital back solution?

I am pursuing the sensor question. Possibly you are right, and availability of large chips trumps ease of implementation.

Edmund
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: jerome_m on February 27, 2014, 02:50:29 pm
What about using a common FF/crop CMOS sensor, and moving it mechanically to scan the image circle of a MF lens? Sort of like scanning backs, only using a 2d sensor instead of a 1d strip.

You can already buy something like that to adapt a D800 to a view camera... For example this one (http://www.amazon.com/Fotodiox-Adapter-Calumet-Horseman-Graflok/dp/B004G13XBW).

I suppose that the manufacturer is busy doing the same adapter for the Sony A7r as we speak, since the shorter mount register will make shift easier.
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: EricWHiss on March 01, 2014, 12:57:02 pm
Eric,

Would DHW be interested in supporting an open digital back solution?

I am pursuing the sensor question. Possibly you are right, and availability of large chips trumps ease of implementation.

Edmund


I myself as a Rolleiflex dealer and photographer am interested.  I'm sure DHW would be very interested in another digital back solution, particularly one that could take advantage of a larger portion of their camera's and lens's 6x6 capability.   But I haven't spoken to them directly about this yet and can't say anything about if or how they would/could get involved. And actually, I wonder now out loud if there may be any licensing issues to also sort out when looking to fit a back to a specific camera or platforms?

Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: peterurban on March 01, 2014, 04:29:28 pm
Hi Edmund,

I think a project like this would be very interesting and worthwhile for many reasons - not the least of which to enable individuals or groups to build specialized solutions of "one" that the industry's main vendors can't go after due to lack of market size etc.

I've been working on a personal camera project that I'll be sharing soon and from that experience I believe that a 135 size "medium format" type back would actually find quite a sizeable market. I actually think that 135 chip size backs will be the new "medium format" for technical view cameras of the future (I am not saying that larger chips won't have the known advantages, but also some disadvantages).

Based on the learnings from my project, I am confident to say that 95% of current manufacturers got it wrong when it comes to technical cameras for next generation digital.

I'll be sharing my project here soon which will explain a lot of the above.

For my project I looked into a us vendor called Illunis ( http://www.illunis.com/ ), they - for instance - create a 70mp 135 chip size "camera" that is pretty much exactly what you are looking for as a sensor "module". It interfaces via usb3 and standardized protocols with whatever processing unit (computer) you want to bring to the table. I've talked to their experts and they said the module would initially go for around $10k but would go down with time and volume. They also offer shutter modules etc as well as larger size sensor "cameras".

If I'd be spearheading this a project, this is what I'de be starting with for a good jumpstart. If you get a big enough community behind it - who knows Illunis might be supporting it.

I think the possibilities would be almost endless and many people will be surprised what is possible when commercial and marketing constraints are removed (i.e. closed vs open protocols, open firmwares, total mechanical freedom...)

Will it be hard, frustrating and sometimes seem impossible - yes for sure. Will it a lot of fun, yes I am sure as well. Can it work? Yes, with the right people at the table.

I hope this takes off and I am willing to help where I can.

Cheers,

Peter
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on March 01, 2014, 09:21:34 pm
Hi Peter,

 Thank you for sharing.

 (Obviously) I agree that a bunch of interesting new possibilities open up once you go open source. One side effect is that you suddenly gain a quasi-infinite pool of developers.

 As Bill Gates once complained, "Linux Torvalds has more programmers than Microsoft".

 On the other hand, I think one should be able to make small-format cameras cheaply. The reason anything based on the 70MP CMOSIS chip is expensive and difficult is that the outputs are analog. Sony chips should considerably simplify and cheapen the construction, I would be very surprised if even an MF solution costs more than $5K since there are no development costs to recoup outside mechanical engineering of the sensor cartridge.

Edmund

Hi Edmund,

I think a project like this would be very interesting and worthwhile for many reasons - not the least of which to enable individuals or groups to build specialized solutions of "one" that the industry's main vendors can't go after due to lack of market size etc.

I've been working on a personal camera project that I'll be sharing soon and from that experience I believe that a 135 size "medium format" type back would actually find quite a sizeable market. I actually think that 135 chip size backs will be the new "medium format" for technical view cameras of the future (I am not saying that larger chips won't have the known advantages, but also some disadvantages).

Based on the learnings from my project, I am confident to say that 95% of current manufacturers got it wrong when it comes to technical cameras for next generation digital.

I'll be sharing my project here soon which will explain a lot of the above.

For my project I looked into a us vendor called Illunis ( http://www.illunis.com/ ), they - for instance - create a 70mp 135 chip size "camera" that is pretty much exactly what you are looking for as a sensor "module". It interfaces via usb3 and standardized protocols with whatever processing unit (computer) you want to bring to the table. I've talked to their experts and they said the module would initially go for around $10k but would go down with time and volume. They also offer shutter modules etc as well as larger size sensor "cameras".

If I'd be spearheading this a project, this is what I'de be starting with for a good jumpstart. If you get a big enough community behind it - who knows Illunis might be supporting it.

I think the possibilities would be almost endless and many people will be surprised what is possible when commercial and marketing constraints are removed (i.e. closed vs open protocols, open firmwares, total mechanical freedom...)

Will it be hard, frustrating and sometimes seem impossible - yes for sure. Will it a lot of fun, yes I am sure as well. Can it work? Yes, with the right people at the table.

I hope this takes off and I am willing to help where I can.

Cheers,

Peter

Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: EricWHiss on March 02, 2014, 02:58:08 am
Hi Peter,
Thanks for the link - that's an interesting outfit.  I see they also have the 50mp MF chip in some products which for me is what I'm interested in - the larger sensors, but I'm curious to know about your project and why you think its the new MF for tech cameras. Is that because of the larger DOF smaller sensors provide - all else being equal?

I do have a bunch of people asking me about fitting the A7R to the Rollei X-Act2 technical camera, and one guy Richard Gale has done a really smashing job of it.
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: peterurban on March 03, 2014, 07:38:58 pm
@Eric,

My experience with my project has led me to believe that most technical cameras are conceptually not very suitable to the kind of benefits you'd want from a digital tech camera setup - especially in the filed.

More on that soon :)

Peter
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on March 04, 2014, 01:15:33 am
The interesting question about an open source camera is not only what the sensor would be like, but also what sort of environmental controls could be synched to the imaging aspects - eg automated stitching, panning etc.

Edmund
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: torger on March 04, 2014, 03:05:57 am
@Eric,

My experience with my project has led me to believe that most technical cameras are conceptually not very suitable to the kind of benefits you'd want from a digital tech camera setup - especially in the filed.

More on that soon :)

Intriguing :)

I'm really curious about what you think is wrong with the current tech cameras for field use. I'd say that there are two faults - no real live view and poor angular response (ie requires LCC). The first is not-using-a-CMOS problem but the second is actually becoming worse with current CMOS technology. Current pixels are like 5um wide and 7um deep. We need new sensors with photodiodes closer to the surface of the sensor, fortunately such technology already exists but so far only in small sensors.
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: hjulenissen on March 04, 2014, 03:17:10 am
Judging by my experience (end-user) of open source software projects:

I think it is really hard to beat the large corporations on things like ergonomy, UI, battery life etc. These are things that require some manpower, and a kind of competence that seems to not be easily drawn into open source.

What open source seems to excel at is nitty-gritty technical stuff (e.g. pixel peeping), and adhering to standards. The inherent openness of both product and the process seems to invite thinking out of the box (e.g. the stuff that MagicLantern are putting into old-ish Canon cameras).

-h
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on March 04, 2014, 09:34:20 am
Judging by my experience (end-user) of open source software projects:

I think it is really hard to beat the large corporations on things like ergonomy, UI, battery life etc. These are things that require some manpower, and a kind of competence that seems to not be easily drawn into open source.

What open source seems to excel at is nitty-gritty technical stuff (e.g. pixel peeping), and adhering to standards. The inherent openness of both product and the process seems to invite thinking out of the box (e.g. the stuff that MagicLantern are putting into old-ish Canon cameras).

-h

I agree with everything you say.

For some reason, community open-source developers create software that is not easy to use.

However over the past few years, corporations have also learnt that they can successfully re-use open-source engineering, provided they work hard and wrap and re-skin it.

The most spectacular RECENT example of gift-wrapped open-source is Android. "Desktop Linux" has been a user-interface failure, but the "Touch Linux" called Android has totally defeated Blackberry, Nokia and Microsoft and is even outselling Apple. It is now the leading smartphone and tablet OS.

Another less well known open source success wrapping story is Mac OS X, which builds on an academic Unix/BSD clone, based on a kernel named Mach. The same is true for iOS of course (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach_(kernel)).

In summary, the whole modern mobile phone and tablet industry, iPhone and Android, is based on re-skinned open source.

Between mobile devices and the cloud, open source has already taken over the world, and corporations are making a lot of money from it, thank you very much. Except Microsoft who failed to notice the dagger as it was pushed into their chest.

Edmund
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: torger on March 04, 2014, 11:14:29 am
Open-source get contributions from geeks, and geeks like to make geeky things, which generally isn't user interface design. Understanding user interface design is a much different competence from designing algorithms or device drivers. Another aspect is that to make a great user interface you need a "dictator", someone that unifies the whole experience. It's less suitable for the distributed type of development open-source generally is.

It's easy to criticize a user interface for not being good (constructive criticism too), but it's hard to actually make one from the ground up. Just like it's easy to criticize a photograph and harder to shoot one. I know this myself, even if I think I am quite good at detecting what a good user interface is, I must really work hard if I'm going to make one myself that doesn't suck.

I would not worry too much though, with an open design you can always fix later. And actually, for things I use often I generally prefer user interfaces that are a bit cumbersome to get into but powerful once you know it. "Great" commercial user interfaces often suffer from omitting features an advanced user would like to have, in order to make the interface more user-friendly.
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: hjulenissen on March 04, 2014, 03:25:50 pm
"Great" commercial user interfaces often suffer from omitting features an advanced user would like to have, in order to make the interface more user-friendly.
I think that the great ones have several layers. There is what is presented "in your eyes", this should ideally match my expectations of what I mainly intend to do with the thing. As you use the software and get comfortable doing the basic things, you probably will want to do them more efficiently (or do more advanced operations). At this stage my perfect UI should offer these features at just the place I start looking for them. Kind of like how great Pixar movies offers a great story for your kids, but also adds a deeper layer of fun for the grown-ups.

I think that it is possible (but hardly simple) to make a really great UI for a software application like Lightroom, where you have an advanced set of operations that a large number of people want access to. The thing is that these people have a somewhat common understanding of what they want to do, meaning that it is possible (to some degree) to make a "one-size-fits-all" software for them.

I wish that the mainstream camera manufacturers catered more for us raw photographers. Decent raw histograms would be a start. Focus peaking with good automatic zooming. (hire Guillermo if needed). I like to have immediate hardware access to the fundamental camera parameters (manual focus, AF point/tracking, zoom, exp time, aperture, ISO, EC,...). By having an open philosophy, anyone should be able to write simple "apps" that either run locally on the camera, or on a connected smart phone that have low-level access to image sensor and camera mechanics. There are many skilled people out there, but not all are able or willing to wrestle low-level embedded development.

-h
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on March 04, 2014, 06:11:05 pm
To get back on topic, do you guys have a preference for a specific FPGA family for open source? Discuss ...

I am thinking of doing a breadboard tethered Raw minicam design with some friends just to see what the issues are.

Edmund
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: EricWHiss on March 05, 2014, 12:45:47 am
We should all agree on some minimum set of key specifications for a first iteration, I think.

For me:
the sensor ideally would be bigger than the leica/pentax/IQ250 size
CMOS or CCD ok with me, but I still favor CCD.
Needs to have a universal design with possible adapter plates for different camera platforms(ie. If I can't get it to fit my camera(s) its not working for me, and probably others feel the same)
Pixel count not as important as sensitivity and ability to handle shifted lenses or wide angle lenses close to sensor. 



Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: haplo602 on March 05, 2014, 10:25:02 am
We should all agree on some minimum set of key specifications for a first iteration, I think.

For me:
the sensor ideally would be bigger than the leica/pentax/IQ250 size
CMOS or CCD ok with me, but I still favor CCD.
Needs to have a universal design with possible adapter plates for different camera platforms(ie. If I can't get it to fit my camera(s) its not working for me, and probably others feel the same)
Pixel count not as important as sensitivity and ability to handle shifted lenses or wide angle lenses close to sensor. 




So in current products you are talking about 36x48mm and larger non-microlensed sensors ...
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: torger on March 06, 2014, 09:32:57 am
These Dicomed Bigshot backs from back in 1996 was made with those standard 16 megapixel 61x61mm aerial/satellite CCD sensors:

http://www.epi-centre.com/reports/9610ecs.html
http://www.epi-centre.com/reports/9604cs.html

as far as I understand Dicomed was not a particularly big company at the time, but as one of the article states they did get $27 million in funding for making these type backs, and the monocrome back was $35k and the color $55k.

I wonder what these type of sensors cost today. I would suspect that there could be very high pricing still even if yield is good, due to very low sales volumes. Sensors of this type is sold in different quality levels though, depending on how many pixels that are broken, so you can get a cheaper sensor with lower quality.
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: byarvin on March 06, 2014, 12:56:25 pm
Those Big Shot backs were nothing but trouble and that trouble had nothing to do with the sensors. I suspect that the Phillips sensor combined with a modern image processing engine and card reader instead of the 1996 JackHammer scsi add-in card would do the trick.

Frankly, they were around so long ago that I've forgotten what their image quality was like. All I can recall was somebody emailing me a TIFF file and thinking "this is better than my Canon 10d."

Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial explorationrt
Post by: eronald on March 06, 2014, 01:57:21 pm
Update - I've edited this post to tune it down :)

Eric,

If you insist on CCD, go ahead and do the analog electronics yourself. There's a reason MF backs used to be expensive: CCD backs are hard to make in a way that is noise-immune.
If you want a large CMOS sensor, as minimum (!) larger than the IQ250,  please name the supplier.
If you have the chip, I can make the electronics, no problem, and can find someone to the mechanical engineering.
Let us start with an existing chip, and learn to walk before we run!
When a larger nice chip comes along we will then be ready to do a useful new version.

Edmund.

We should all agree on some minimum set of key specifications for a first iteration, I think.

For me:
the sensor ideally would be bigger than the leica/pentax/IQ250 size
CMOS or CCD ok with me, but I still favor CCD.
Needs to have a universal design with possible adapter plates for different camera platforms(ie. If I can't get it to fit my camera(s) its not working for me, and probably others feel the same)
Pixel count not as important as sensitivity and ability to handle shifted lenses or wide angle lenses close to sensor.  




Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on March 07, 2014, 02:41:06 am
Project Update.

I've looked a bit at the issues involved.

Starting from a CMOS sensor, a tethered open source still camera solution looks feasible.

The unit costs are probably around $1.5K plus the unit price of whatever sensor is employed, although the first few prototypes will probably cost more. These costs are exactly the same whether one uses a large sensor or a small one. I guess the time to have a usable object would be about a year.

An evolution towards a standalone unit might be possible, but it would be a much longer term project - about 3 years probably.

Maybe it is time to start a discussion list for potential participants in such a project. The technology is probably useful for anyone involved in imaging as most of the interface work will be done using an off the shelf FPGA board. Preliminary testing might involve a small cheap and commonly available sensor.

Edmund
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: torger on March 07, 2014, 03:51:47 am
Maybe you should change the heading to say "Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back", as what many really really want is larger sensor than 44x33 and will then get drawn into CCD. Apart from price I think the other main drawback that people reacted on with the IQ250 was the small size.

However, starting with this type of project now means that when ready there could already be larger CMOS sensors with better angular response out on the market, probably Sony-made, which then will be easy to integrate.
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on March 07, 2014, 11:15:07 am
You are right on both counts.

- Yes, I have changed the title.

- Yes, the interface specs tend to be the same in a sensor family, so if we have a proto, then moving to another chip from the same maker should be easy.

Thank you for your constructive remarks.

Edmund

Maybe you should change the heading to say "Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back", as what many really really want is larger sensor than 44x33 and will then get drawn into CCD. Apart from price I think the other main drawback that people reacted on with the IQ250 was the small size.

However, starting with this type of project now means that when ready there could already be larger CMOS sensors with better angular response out on the market, probably Sony-made, which then will be easy to integrate.
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on March 07, 2014, 11:15:50 am
You are right on both counts.

- Yes, I have changed the title.

- Yes, the interface specs tend to be the same in a sensor family, so if we have even a 35mm proto, then moving to another chip from the same maker should be easy.

Thank you for your constructive remarks.

Edmund

Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: EricWHiss on March 07, 2014, 11:16:28 pm
Edmund,
For me what's the point of coming up with something that has a smaller format than what we can buy now?  I mean if only wanted 48x36 then I could buy a used Leaf, Phase, Sinar or Hasselblad/Imacon back for like 5k and be happy.   What I'm interested in is coming up with something bigger than what is offered currently.

I'm not saying it has to be CCD but I don't know of any available CMOS sensors besides the one Sony just made that is even bigger than 24x35.  The Sony sensor isn't doing well with technical cameras so not sure its such a great option anyhow.   I'm not an electronics guy so if you are saying that its much harder to do CCD then that leaves us with some decisions.   I don't see the value in developing an open source 24x35 back - actually there are a number of units for astronomy that already can be worked with that include pixel binning and other cool things in that size and under. 

Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: ErikKaffehr on March 07, 2014, 11:42:22 pm
Hi,

The main reason Edmund wants to use a CMOS design with on sensor AD-s is that all the hard work is done on the sensor. So the output from the sensor is not a brittle analogue signal but an undestructable digital one. Building a support circuitry CCD cameras is very difficult as it must be designed to have very low electronic noise and excellent shielding. Also, analog readout is in all probability far more complex.

Sony's sensor has on sensor converters and so has the Leica M (240) sensor designed by CMOSIS, but Nikon D4 and all Canons use CMOS sensors with off chip ADCs. So all CMOS is not alike. With the Sony type design, the hard work has been done by the sensor vendor.

Best regards
Erik

Edmund,
For me what's the point of coming up with something that has a smaller format than what we can buy now?  I mean if only wanted 48x36 then I could buy a used Leaf, Phase, Sinar or Hasselblad/Imacon back for like 5k and be happy.   What I'm interested in is coming up with something bigger than what is offered currently.

I'm not saying it has to be CCD but I don't know of any available CMOS sensors besides the one Sony just made that is even bigger than 24x35.  The Sony sensor isn't doing well with technical cameras so not sure its such a great option anyhow.   I'm not an electronics guy so if you are saying that its much harder to do CCD then that leaves us with some decisions.   I don't see the value in developing an open source 24x35 back - actually there are a number of units for astronomy that already can be worked with that include pixel binning and other cool things in that size and under. 


Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on March 08, 2014, 12:07:58 am
Erik,

 Thank you for explaining things much more clearly, as I should have.

 There is something I should add: Sensors come in families, often using the same cell structure and the same basic interface circuitry, and CFAs. So a design and software conceived to deal with one sensor will be easily converted to deal with another from that family.

 If we manage to start now with even a very small sensor, then I would expect that we will have gained a jump-start on the day a big sensor we like is freely released - we will know how to read in images, remove pattern noise and color shading, demosaic them, get live previews and add overlays, do edge detection for focus, calibrate for color, process shift and tilt etc.

  In fact I have been looking at the CMOSIS/Zedboard combo being employed by the Apertus project for their cine camera. The CMOSIS chip reads into the Zedboard which is built around a Xilinx Zynq chip that combines an ARM9 core set with an FPGA for IO. This means Linux code can be written fairly easily to control the chip, read the data out a speed, even do pattern noise reduction, and then ship previews or full files across to the host computer via a network connection which could be wifi.  

Engineering becomes much easier once you have a working prototype of a thing you want to perfect.

Edmund

Hi,

The main reason Edmund wants to use a CMOS design with on sensor AD-s is that all the hard work is done on the sensor. So the output from the sensor is not a brittle analogue signal but an undestructable digital one. Building a support circuitry CCD cameras is very difficult as it must be designed to have very low electronic noise and excellent shielding. Also, analog readout is in all probability far more complex.

Sony's sensor has on sensor converters and so has the Leica M (240) sensor designed by CMOSIS, but Nikon D4 and all Canons use CMOS sensors with off chip ADCs. So all CMOS is not alike. With the Sony type design, the hard work has been done by the sensor vendor.

Best regards
Erik

Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: MichaelEzra on March 08, 2014, 12:36:53 am
How about a 3 CCD 36MP D800E sensor for true RGB color capture?
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: ErikKaffehr on March 08, 2014, 12:57:38 am
Hi,

A three sensor design is needs a beam splitter and very precise adjustments. I think that would be much more complex than the design Edmund has in mind.

I am impressed by the energy Edmund puts into this.

Best regards
Erik

How about a 3 CCD 36MP D800E sensor for true RGB color capture?
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on March 08, 2014, 01:27:35 am
Here is what happens when one of the world's best camera and sound companies tries to mess with CCD: They go broke.

http://nofilmschool.com/2013/05/aaton-new-owners-documentary-style-digital-camera/

And here is the incredible quality they managed to get, in case you think they were jokers:
http://vimeo.com/67811891

Edmund
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: Ken R on March 08, 2014, 01:02:46 pm
Here is what happens when one of the world's best camera and sound companies tries to mess with CCD: They go broke.

http://nofilmschool.com/2013/05/aaton-new-owners-documentary-style-digital-camera/

And here is the incredible quality they managed to get, in case you think they were jokers:
http://vimeo.com/67811891

Edmund

As RED showed you need a LOT of money to design, make and market a new Digital Cinema Camera from scratch but more importantly whoever does it needs to do it in a unilaterally controlled way (with vision and strong will) like Jim Jannard did (the same can be said of Steve Jobs), none of this design by committee stuff (Detroit Auto Makers learned that the hard way).
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: MichaelEzra on March 08, 2014, 01:19:45 pm
Oops.. by 3 CCD I surely meant 3 CMOS sensors of D800e:) The original implementation was via 3 CCD in video years ago.
The reason I mention this is that if the intent is to make a distinctly different/unique product, well this would be.
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: jerome_m on March 08, 2014, 02:50:46 pm
This guys are doing an open source 4K movie camera based on a sensor a bit larger than APS-C: https://www.apertus.org (https://www.apertus.org).
Title: using 3 sensors plus beam splitters has been abandoned as sensors get larger
Post by: BJL on March 08, 2014, 02:54:08 pm
Oops.. by 3 CCD I surely meant 3 CMOS sensors of D800e:) The original implementation was via 3 CCD in video years ago.
The reason I mention this is that if the intent is to make a distinctly different/unique product, well this would be.
The video industry has used the approach of three small sensors with dichroic beam splitters with smiler sensors (up to 2/3" format) but has abandoned in favor of a single sensor with CFA when moving to larger sensors, and I believe that part of the reason is that those splitters cause problems with color accuracy and metamerism.

Let me just make my usual unpopular suggestion that the industry is well aware of the three-sensor approach, and yet has moved away from it except in video cameras that use small sensors in favor of using a single larger sensor, so putting aside paranoid conspiracy theories or the comforting internet forum arrogance that we know better how to design products that the companies with experience in actually competing to make sales to demanding professionals, it seems very likely that the theoretical advantages of three-sensor arrays are outweighed by their disadvantages when larger sensors are in use.  (The extra cost of two more sensors is unlikely to be the reason for makers of professional video cameras to abandon a technically superior alternative, since sensor cost is a small fraction of the price of such cameras.)
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: EricWHiss on March 08, 2014, 03:21:27 pm
Ok, I already understand the extra challenges of working with a CCD sensor (for this ad hoc group in particular).  My point was rather to ask what CMOS sensors exist that we can buy that are bigger than 24x35mm, or better yet a sensor bigger than the new sony one?   I don't see any myself.

If this group decides that it's too much work or too difficult to approach a CCD sensor that has a large size such as the Truesense 50mp or one of the others pointed out, then what CMOS sensor could be used?   

I feel that if it boils down to only the new sony CMOS, we'd have a lot easier go buying the new pentax and hacking it than trying to build this from scratch components.
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on March 08, 2014, 03:39:16 pm
You mean hack the Pentax, like take it apart?
I am not good at reverse engineering, like some people who disassemble firmware, although of course as part of my training I have reverse engineered VLSIs in  the sense of reconstructing how they work from the microscope images. Thinking inside the box is a skill I dont really have :) Design is more fun.



Edmund

Ok, I already understand the extra challenges of working with a CCD sensor (for this ad hoc group in particular).  My point was rather to ask what CMOS sensors exist that we can buy that are bigger than 24x35mm, or better yet a sensor bigger than the new sony one?   I don't see any myself.

If this group decides that it's too much work or too difficult to approach a CCD sensor that has a large size such as the Truesense 50mp or one of the others pointed out, then what CMOS sensor could be used?  

I feel that if it boils down to only the new sony CMOS, we'd have a lot easier go buying the new pentax and hacking it than trying to build this from scratch components.

Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: ErikKaffehr on March 09, 2014, 05:10:40 pm
Hi,

I guess that Eric means transplanting the sensor to another assembly that could be a digital back. I guess it would be possible but not feasible. It would also definitively not be open source. To be open source you would need to be in control of the source code.

Best regards
Erik

You mean hack the Pentax, like take it apart?
I am not good at reverse engineering, like some people who disassemble firmware, although of course as part of my training I have reverse engineered VLSIs in  the sense of reconstructing how they work from the microscope images. Thinking inside the box is a skill I dont really have :) Design is more fun.



Edmund

Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: EricWHiss on March 09, 2014, 07:28:25 pm
What I really mean is that if the group which is really just Edmond and maybe one or two others then we have very limited options.  We can either try the CCD road and have a large sensor - even larger than what is available now or we can wait some years until larger CMOS sensors are available and cheap. 

Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on March 09, 2014, 10:24:23 pm
What I really mean is that if the group which is really just Edmond and maybe one or two others then we have very limited options.  We can either try the CCD road and have a large sensor - even larger than what is available now or we can wait some years until larger CMOS sensors are available and cheap.  


Eric,

 You have stated the problem for MF users perfectly - and also explained why they have to pay atrocious prices.

 AFAIK, CCD and CMOS essentially cost the same price in large-ish sizes; the price is determined by chip area, not megapixels. The only thing is there are no large size CMOS chips available at the moment.
 
 However, AFAIK, CCD is essentially dead - the existing chips will be produced and reproduced, but no engineer who *I* know wants to go anywhere near that technology if they are not specialists; the lesson from the Aathon failure serves as a cautionary tale.  So Dalsa and Truesense have essentially *run out of new customers* for their smaller full-frame designs. The smallish interline designs are also going to get killed by the new generation CMOS chips with fast global shutters.

 The usual suspects who already have CCD camera backs and engineers who understand CCD electronics and calibration may release new backs based on similar or larger chips; the rumored existence of stocks of high quality but aging large format sensors may be persuasive in a market where a large-size back sells for an engineers annual income in Europe.  However as I say, I don't think any new entrant is going to go anywhere near the technology.

 My feeling is that now that the Omerta has been broken by Sony, and CMOSIS, the reigning large chip champions Dalsa and Truesense will of necessity release larger and fully digital chips to the general public, and the availability issues will solve themselves. They doubtless have some designs, but have not made them commercially available. I would expect such designs - at least small versions-  to appear within a matter of months. It is clear that their websites are already preparing the customers for the switchover (http://www.teledynedalsa.com/imaging/knowledge-center/appnotes/ccd-vs-cmos/).

Now, nobody with an ounce of sense in the civilian visible-light imaging community is going to budget for expensive analog engineering and shielding if a competing chip can be found that outputs digital data directly. You can see this revolt at Leica who moved away from the analog design of the M8 and M9 CCDs to a CMOSIS (Fillfactory) CMOS design, and got a simpler design problem, higher ISO, liveview and video as a result. I would expect the next S to lift a larger chip off the same shoulder :) Blackmagic seem to be using a smaller device from CMOSIS as well, with good commercial and practical success.

I may be wrong on all of the above. In any case I have a project which calls for looking at a CMOS design, and I will be setting up a lab experiment soon to gather some real-world experience.

This stuff is new to me, but I'm now gathering and organizing my information form an engineering perspective. I hope you will forgive me for my superficial treatment of what is doubtless a difficult topic.

I remain as always, your most humble servant.



Edmund
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: EricWHiss on March 09, 2014, 11:59:02 pm
Well as I have stated, I'm agnostic on the CCD vs CMOS position, but as CMOS sensors have made it to the photographic realm for more than 10 years but it was only this year that MF sized CMOS sensors have been made, I'm betting that it is not as clear cut as you describe it that CMOS is so clearly superior. But undoubtedly the market which wants video and live preview will force CMOS to the fore, possibly to the detriment of some still images. 

There are a lot of firms who specialize in integrating the CCD sensors - so I don't see the CCD electronics as something difficult that can be re-invented.
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on March 10, 2014, 12:14:33 am
Well as I have stated, I'm agnostic on the CCD vs CMOS position, but as CMOS sensors have made it to the photographic realm for more than 10 years but it was only this year that MF sized CMOS sensors have been made, I'm betting that it is not as clear cut as you describe it that CMOS is so clearly superior. But undoubtedly the market which wants video and live preview will force CMOS to the fore, possibly to the detriment of some still images.  

There are a lot of firms who specialize in integrating the CCD sensors - so I don't see the CCD electronics as something difficult that can be re-invented.

As digital backs now trade at a multiple of the prices of Medium format camera bodies eg. Rollei with good lenses and complex mechanics and electronics , I would say that the market disagrees with your assessment of availability of cheap labor. Nobody is stopping DHW from adding a back to their camera - but, feel free to hire your own engineering team, or just buy from Jenoptik like Leica and Sinar- I for one am going nowhere near a CCD design.

Eric, I'm tired, and I don't think you make sense.

Edmund

PS.

I forecast a drop in the price of CCD sensors, as the existing chip stocks get dumped. For all I know there will also be a glut of CCD design specialists on the market and a revival of the MF back niche.
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: ErikKaffehr on March 10, 2014, 02:44:47 am
Hi,

The obvious suggestion is that Eric collects a group of interested engineers to design a CCD based solution and Edmund continues with CMOS based design that he finds more practical.

Best regards
Erik


As digital backs now trade at a multiple of the prices of Medium format camera bodies eg. Rollei with good lenses and complex mechanics and electronics , I would say that the market disagrees with your assessment of availability of cheap labor. Nobody is stopping DHW from adding a back to their camera - but, feel free to hire your own engineering team, or just buy from Jenoptik like Leica and Sinar- I for one am going nowhere near a CCD design.

Eric, I'm tired, and I don't think you make sense.

Edmund

PS.

I forecast a drop in the price of CCD sensors, as the existing chip stocks get dumped. For all I know there will also be a glut of CCD design specialists on the market and a revival of the MF back niche.

Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on March 10, 2014, 02:55:52 am
Hi,

The obvious suggestion is that Eric collects a group of interested engineers to design a CCD based solution and Edmund continues with CMOS based design that he finds more practical.

Best regards
Erik



Absolutely. We can have a common mechanical design so we interface with as many cameras as possible including of course the wonderful Rollei SLRs and .... TLRs.

Edmund
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: haplo602 on March 10, 2014, 03:25:07 am
Edmund, the main problem with CCD vs CMOS is about now vs future. We do not know what the CMOS future will bring, however we know perfectly well what the CCD present can give us.

I guess you can hibernate this project for a few years untill more CMOS options become available or you can start protoryping on a 35mm chip.
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on March 10, 2014, 04:13:57 am
Edmund, the main problem with CCD vs CMOS is about now vs future. We do not know what the CMOS future will bring, however we know perfectly well what the CCD present can give us.

I guess you can hibernate this project for a few years untill more CMOS options become available or you can start protoryping on a 35mm chip.

Haplo,

Ah. The voice of reason has decided to visit LL. What a relief.
I do so agree with you.
You know, if I were asked whether I prefer CCD to CMOS I would reply CCD every day.
But unfortunately Speedbird aka. Concorde has been retired, as has the SR-71.
I have a good non-mf reason to prototype CMOS with a small chip anyway.

Edmund
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: EricWHiss on March 10, 2014, 04:27:37 am
As digital backs now trade at a multiple of the prices of Medium format camera bodies eg. Rollei with good lenses and complex mechanics and electronics , I would say that the market disagrees with your assessment of availability of cheap labor. Nobody is stopping DHW from adding a back to their camera - but, feel free to hire your own engineering team, or just buy from Jenoptik like Leica and Sinar- I for one am going nowhere near a CCD design.

Eric, I'm tired, and I don't think you make sense.

Edmund

PS.

I forecast a drop in the price of CCD sensors, as the existing chip stocks get dumped. For all I know there will also be a glut of CCD design specialists on the market and a revival of the MF back niche.


Woah, Edmund, you must have been tired!  No where have I mentioned cheap labor and I'm not working on a project for DHW anyhow - you are reading things into my words in your sleepiness. 

But in any case, I think you should move forward on your own as I don't think we have enough shared specifications to work on the same project and you might have to wait some years for the cmos anyhow!   ;)      by that time Erik K will have made his 20,000th post and still not learned how to pick out sarcasm when he sees it!  :o
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on March 11, 2014, 01:09:39 am
Woah, Edmund, you must have been tired!  No where have I mentioned cheap labor and I'm not working on a project for DHW anyhow - you are reading things into my words in your sleepiness.  

But in any case, I think you should move forward on your own as I don't think we have enough shared specifications to work on the same project and you might have to wait some years for the cmos anyhow!   ;)      by that time Erik K will have made his 20,000th post and still not learned how to pick out sarcasm when he sees it!  :o

By "on my own" I guess you mean without *you*. Sure, I will do exactly the same as Phase One and not support Rollei.

Edmund
Title: Re: Open Source Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: ErikKaffehr on March 11, 2014, 01:44:09 am
Hi,

As a late comment, I would say that I would agree with Ken's points.

Initially, I felt that the crop factor was a bit large. But, a decent kit can be built around the sensor that can use many fine lenses. Regarding resolution I am pretty sure we will see something at 50MP+ coming from Sony, the sensor maker. Current APS-C designs top out at 24 MP and that would translate to 54 MP. As I have sensors of different pitches between 3.9 and 6.8 microns, I have done some experiments and I would say that it is absolutely the case that small pixels give better detail rendition in an area that is in absolute focus.

So, keeping up the resolution is a significant factor, but that is really up to the sensor makers.

Would a back be available at 10k (€) I would definitively be interested, as I feel a back like that makes a good combo with a technical camera.

Best regards
Erik


My opinion on the subject:

#1 The new camera / back MUST have Live View and a very nice screen on board. It should be a self-contained unit. No cables needed for power or anything but still have wifi for external control if desired and USB3 for tethering. (If its a hassle to use it people will just grab a A7R or D800E)
#2 The new camera / back MUST work with a wide range of lenses. Yes, from the excellent Canon TS-E II lenses to Rodenstock HR-W's. That should limit sensor size to about 54mmx40mm approx. but the does not rule out a smaller sensor like the one in the IQ250 since the Canon TS-E lenses are plenty wide enough to satisfy the wide angle needs of just about any user. This is HUGE, the A7R is already tapping into an extremely large number of Canon lens owners and doing well. It is a BIG market.
#3 The new camera / back MUST cost less than $10,000
#4 The new camera / back MUST have a sensor with at least 50MP and perform well in low light / long exposures and reasonably high iso. (anything less and people will just grab a A7R or D800E like they do now)

So, I am thinking that the new product should be a digital back like unit with a shutter unit in front (as short as possible) and with interchangeable lens mounts or adapters so that almost any lens can be used whether they have an integrated shutter or not. An optional external viewfinder would also be awesome (no need to design a new one just make the ones already available work) with viewing modes that aid manual focusing when off the tripod.

Think of it as a much more refined, compact and integrated (and affordable) FPS unit or Hartblei B1 camera that can be used handheld also if desired.
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: synn on March 11, 2014, 07:42:42 am
By "on my own" I guess you mean without *you*. Sure, I will do exactly the same as Phase One and not support Rollei.

Edmund

For someone with a Ph.D in their signature, your posts are unbelievably childish at times.
I can honestly say that the chances of DHW making its own back are higher than this pipe dream seeing the light of the day.

Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on March 11, 2014, 07:52:43 am
I can honestly say that the chances of DHW making its own back are higher than this pipe dream seeing the light of the day.



Well, I certainly hope DHW makes a back of their own, since nobody seems to be promoting their camera.

In a way it's strange to see all these novelties in 4/3 priced at $300 or something, and then almost no products for people willing to pay $50K.

Edmund
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: Christoph C. Feldhaim on March 11, 2014, 07:56:14 am
Well, I certainly hope DHW makes a back of their own, since nobody seems to be promoting their camera.

In a way it's strange to see all these novelties in 4/3 priced at $300 or something, and then almost no products for people willing to pay $50K.

Edmund


Its called mass market, Edmund ... ;)
Its also one of the cruel reasons why they cut off aid money from the poor to consolidate their national budget, instead of taking from the rich.

Cheers
~Chris
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on March 11, 2014, 08:38:11 am
Its called mass market, Edmund ... ;)
Its also one of the cruel reasons why they cut off aid money from the poor to consolidate their national budget, instead of taking from the rich.

Cheers
~Chris

Ah, you explain things so wonderfully, you guys at Goldmann Sachs really understand economics ;)

Edmund
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: Christoph C. Feldhaim on March 11, 2014, 09:00:36 am
Ah, you explain things so wonderfully, you guys at Goldmann Sachs really understand economics ;)

Edmund

LOL - I wish had the according salary to a Goldman-Sachs employee.
Just working in healthcare though ...
Cheers
~Chris
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: EricWHiss on March 11, 2014, 01:33:32 pm
Edmund,
I'm sorry if there was a misunderstanding somewhere - it sounds like you are bit upset - no hard feelings here.   "You" was of course meant in the plural. 

Just to be clear - my interest in a project to build a custom digital back is purely personal as I have an interest in this for a long time. It would be awesome to have a big sensor because I think larger sensors have a different look - just like larger film formats do.    Rollei makes an ideal platform with good lenses for a large square but also Mamiya with their RZ and 7 series rangefinder.  Surely there are others too plus the technical cameras.    Actually I'd also like to see a 4x5 inch large format sensor.

My guess is that the business managers of the Phase, Sinar, Leaf's of the world, plus the sensor chip makers have all worked out the economics of doing such a project and decided that it isn't feasible otherwise we would see them doing these projects.

But it would be cool and I still think that the larger sensor is the final frontier for MFDB….
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: ErikKaffehr on March 11, 2014, 03:13:19 pm
Hi Eric,

I can see that Edmund may be a bit confused, with your kind of comments it is not easy to know if you are sarcastic, ignorant, intolerant or serious.

Best regards
Erik

Edmund,
I'm sorry if there was a misunderstanding somewhere - it sounds like you are bit upset - no hard feelings here.   "You" was of course meant in the plural.  

Just to be clear - my interest in a project to build a custom digital back is purely personal as I have an interest in this for a long time. It would be awesome to have a big sensor because I think larger sensors have a different look - just like larger film formats do.    Rollei makes an ideal platform with good lenses for a large square but also Mamiya with their RZ and 7 series rangefinder.  Surely there are others too plus the technical cameras.    Actually I'd also like to see a 4x5 inch large format sensor.

My guess is that the business managers of the Phase, Sinar, Leaf's of the world, plus the sensor chip makers have all worked out the economics of doing such a project and decided that it isn't feasible otherwise we would see them doing these projects.

But it would be cool and I still think that the larger sensor is the final frontier for MFDB….

Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: EricWHiss on March 11, 2014, 05:41:12 pm
Ah Edmund,
I see that you have appointed Erik K as your spokesperson?  

Erik wait for your cues, please!  When I address a post to "The chicken little of color aliasing", that's when you are supposed to answer next, okay?  :P
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on March 11, 2014, 08:23:29 pm
Ah Edmund,
I see that you have appointed Erik K as your spokesperson?  

Erik wait for your cues, please!  When I address a post to "The chicken little of color aliasing", that's when you are supposed to answer next, okay?  :P

Eric,

 I don't need a spokesperson, I have me own big mouth!

 Thx for your private message. Actually, I phoned one of the companies you cited, Illunis. These are electronic dragonslayers of the first order; but they explained that they do computer-tethered cameras with no postprocessing of the images.

 Prices seem commensurate with the value of their work, if I understand rightly you can buy a big chip back for $15K. If you ever order something from them, tell me in advance and I'll try and help spec a back that can become autonomous later rather than tethered.

 I expect that I can make a CMOS back for $10K less than they can, if I can get the chips.

 
Edmund
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: haplo602 on March 12, 2014, 09:59:30 am
Haplo,

Ah. The voice of reason has decided to visit LL. What a relief.
I do so agree with you.
You know, if I were asked whether I prefer CCD to CMOS I would reply CCD every day.
But unfortunately Speedbird aka. Concorde has been retired, as has the SR-71.
I have a good non-mf reason to prototype CMOS with a small chip anyway.

Edmund

oh well ...

:mouth wide shut:
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on March 12, 2014, 10:46:23 am
oh well ...

:mouth wide shut:


Haplo,

 You seem astonished that I agree with you. One can be crazy but lucid.

 LL MF zone seems to be where all the divas and spoilt kids come; this where people *need* a 30ft limo with a built-in swimming pool.

 P1 aka Leaf have played this audience like a violin, so you have 80MP backs and 60MP backs and 39 MP backs 30MP backs even old 20 and 16MP used backs, and color and monochrome and IR, and all variety of sizes and Phase label and Leaf label and then Phammy and Contax and V and Hy6 mount, some of those cameras which work great but haven't been in production since Elvis went out to buy cigarettes. Of course people who "need" all this "choice" are ready to pay as much as a rockstar for his next guitar.

 And all of this for an audience of what? 1000 sales a year? 2000?  It seems P1 have 300 employees. You work out how the shark needs to keep swimming to stay alive.

 So now I look at this with the eyes of an EE, and I see that the main technology, CCD, which has driven all this limousine-extension business, is now basically as admirable and obsolete as the SR71 and the Space Shuttle. Which in fact is to be expected since it is declassified military and remote sensing technology of the 70s and 80s. So one shouldn't expect many more novel CCD chips to get designed or in fact made. But it is great that you can get it, because you certainly paid for it. Wikipedia tells me the going price of an electro-optical keyhole viewer was equivalent to that of a Nimitz, in the high 10 figure range. I guess scientists should be happy Nasa finally managed to get one Hubble to look out, after launching a whole bunch of them that aimed their mirrors and CCDs downwards.

 Yes, CCD is a great technology. Yes it's going away. Except for the military who can afford to make it work, consumer imagery is now overwhelmingly going to be CMOS with onboard ADC. Yes, if I had a Strad, or a Louis Lot flute I would keep it and play it every day.  Yes, I may be over 50 but I won't do a dead design. So, yes, the best thing to do is to start prototyping and wait for what my professors called "le rendez vous téchnologique", the moment when the new tech hits the market  and everything changes, to arrive. Thank you for giving me an opportunity to share.

Edmund

PS. I spoke yesterday to a company that is starting to prototype flexible plastic sheet sensors, and they expect to be in production in a few years, with large sheets, albeit with a low resolution. I think chances are we might bring back 8x10 within my working life.
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: ErikKaffehr on March 12, 2014, 03:37:13 pm
Hi,

Interesting stuff…

Alternate technologies, thinking out of the box, the future is not always an extrapolation what we have now.

Best regards
Erik



PS. I spoke yesterday to a company that is starting to prototype flexible plastic sheet sensors, and they expect to be in production in a few years, with large sheets, albeit with a low resolution. I think chances are we might bring back 8x10 within my working life.

Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: BJL on March 12, 2014, 04:25:41 pm
... a company ... is starting to prototype flexible plastic sheet sensors, and they expect to be in production in a few years, with large sheets, albeit with a low resolution. I think chances are we might bring back 8x10 within my working life.
Is this based on LCD or LED panel technology? I understand that display panel fabrication tools can also be used to make sensors that are bigger but of lower resolution than those made with CMOS technology (which includes CCDs!).  LCD panels for phones are now at 651ppi or beyond (40 micron spacing) and that could give a 6510x5208 (34MP) sensor in 8"x10" format. That starts to sound useful, for people who are into that sort of thing.

Maybe your project should be redirected towards an LCD panel based digital back for 10"x8" view cameras!  Call it the Janus, with a panel on the front for taking and another on the back for preview.
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: EricWHiss on March 12, 2014, 08:24:46 pm

PS. I spoke yesterday to a company that is starting to prototype flexible plastic sheet sensors, and they expect to be in production in a few years, with large sheets, albeit with a low resolution. I think chances are we might bring back 8x10 within my working life.


This would be cool!  How about a 1 meter by 1 meter sensor?   There is no substitute for sensor size...
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: EricWHiss on March 12, 2014, 08:27:01 pm
Call it the Janus, with a panel on the front for taking and another on the back for preview.

Good idea!
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on March 12, 2014, 08:32:53 pm
This would be cool!  How about a 1 meter by 1 meter sensor?   There is no substitute for sensor size...


Yeah, well 50x50 cm or something are apparently their initial sizes, at low resolution.

I don't know if many of us have the right camera at home :)

What would be nice would be a super-janus, where you flip a switch and it turns into an lcd and lets you do a contact print.

Edmund
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: Sareesh Sudhakaran on March 13, 2014, 05:24:58 am
Yeah, well 50x50 cm or something are apparently their initial sizes, at low resolution.

Possibly a noob question: I thought only Dalsa and Truesense made medium format CCD sensors, and now Sony makes MF CMOS sensors. How can anybody else have the technical and artistic knowhow to produce world-class images?

By the way, here's a link I found of the pricing of Kodak's 50 MP KAF-50100: http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1309562 $3,500 for volume in 2009 could translate to $2,000 for volume today. Initial R&D, manpower, equipment and software development would really raise the overheads that need to be recovered...makes me wonder if the Pentax 645D has the best pricing ($6.6K now) that is viable.
Title: other makers of larger than 35mm format sensors, for uses like medical
Post by: BJL on March 13, 2014, 09:51:42 am
I thought only Dalsa and Truesense made medium format CCD sensors, and now Sony makes MF CMOS sensors. How can anybody else have the technical and artistic knowhow to produce world-class images?
Kodak/Truesense and Dalsa are the only two that have been serving the medium format camera market, but a number of other companies offer sensors in formats larger than 35mm for other markets like industrial, medical, astronomical, aerial mapping and cameras in satellites. Teledyne was doing so even before it acquired Dalsa, and Fairchild is another.

With CCD sensors larger than 35mm format, looking at medium format photographic equipment is seeing only the tip if the iceberg, with even Kodak and Dalsa making most of their sensor models and most of their sales in other markets.
Title: Re: other makers of larger than 35mm format sensors, for uses like medical
Post by: eronald on March 14, 2014, 06:33:49 pm
One can make any tethered CMOS camera device (no display, no menus) for around $500 of electronics + cost of mechanics + sensor cost. It might be possible to turn it into an iPad-driven device fairly easily. Design costs for the boards would be around $6K in Europe.

This makes a 35mm mini-alpa a perfectly feasible project, and in fact might make it more useful than a Sony.

Of course, if you do this with a big sensor you get an interesting MF solution.

The trick is that you can do what the Apertus people are doing, run Linux on an FPGA/CPU combo (Zynq) so that user-level code can easily be written on the Linux module. So you don't pay for software development because most of is done by your user community.

I think even with MF CCD solutions from one of the suppliers Eric cited, you'd end up with an under $10K tethered device.

Edmund
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: EricWHiss on March 14, 2014, 07:37:52 pm
Yeah, well 50x50 cm or something are apparently their initial sizes, at low resolution.
I don't know if many of us have the right camera at home :)
Edmund

I'm building a camera right now in my studio for 12x14 inch direct positive paper with a copy lens in copal 3 shutter.  Totally different direction from this thread, but you can get the direct positive paper in 24 inch rolls so I cut one in half in the changing room and am using it on two epson printer spools like a really big film cassette. 

I think that 50cm x 50cm flexible sensor would fit right into my camera!
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: Lacunapratum on March 14, 2014, 09:35:27 pm
... and of course you can fold it up in your pocket if you need to take it for a hike. 
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: MichaelEzra on March 14, 2014, 09:49:04 pm
... and of course you can fold it up in your pocket if you need to take it for a hike. 

"roll it" :)
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: synn on March 14, 2014, 10:17:18 pm
A 30+ MP 8x10 sensor that doesn't cost the GDP of a small country sounds very interesting indeed!
I have been wanting to do large format portraiture for a long time and this might be the ticket for it.
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on March 14, 2014, 10:17:45 pm
"roll it" :)

And you can use it for an Xray when get brought down from the hike :)

These things are made for industrial xrays apparently, at least that's an important market where being able to take images inside things is lucrative.

Edmund
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on March 14, 2014, 10:20:45 pm
A 30+ MP 8x10 sensor that doesn't cost the GDP of a small country sounds very interesting indeed!
I have been wanting to do large format portraiture for a long time and this might be the ticket for it.

I wouldn't expect much more than a few MP within the next few years; the density is not great.
http://www.isorg.fr/actu/0/plastic-logic-and-isorg-claim-the-prestigious-flexi-award-for-their-revolutionary-flexible-plastic-image-sensor_206.htm

To cite:
The collaboration is based on the deposition of organic printed photodetectors (OPD), pioneered by ISORG, onto a plastic organic thin-film transistor (OTFT) backplane, developed by  Plastic Logic, to create a flexible sensor with a 4x4 cm active area, 375um pitch (175um pixel size with 200um spacing) and 94 x 95 = 8930 pixel resolution. As much as for the technical achievement, this award recognises the far-reaching potential of the underlying technology

Edmund
Title: Re: other makers of larger than 35mm format sensors, for uses like medical
Post by: RichDesmond on March 16, 2014, 10:06:58 pm
One can make any tethered CMOS camera device (no display, no menus) for around $500 of electronics + cost of mechanics + sensor cost. It might be possible to turn it into an iPad-driven device fairly easily. Design costs for the boards would be around $6K in Europe.

This makes a 35mm mini-alpa a perfectly feasible project, and in fact might make it more useful than a Sony....

That would be very interesting to me. Given the sensor realities at the moment I think a strong argument can be made for proceeding in that direction.
Title: Re: other makers of larger than 35mm format sensors, for uses like medical
Post by: eronald on March 16, 2014, 10:14:12 pm
That would be very interesting to me. Given the sensor realities at the moment I think a strong argument can be made for proceeding in that direction.

What sort of work would you be doing - and what sort of focal lengths would you require?

Edmund
Title: Re: other makers of larger than 35mm format sensors, for uses like medical
Post by: RichDesmond on March 17, 2014, 07:24:58 pm
What sort of work would you be doing - and what sort of focal lengths would you require?

Edmund

Mostly landscapes, with some architecture interiors (mainly churches) Nothing really long (100mm equiv) Wides mostly, which I realize may be a problem.

A Canon FF with the 17 and 24 TS lenses (and others, of course) is a workable solution, but I've been mulling over the tech camera route for a while now. Not in a huge hurry, this is all for a project my wife and I are slooowly working on. My retirement is a couple of years away, that's when we'll get serious and the pace will pick up.
Title: Re: other makers of larger than 35mm format sensors, for uses like medical
Post by: eronald on March 17, 2014, 07:38:38 pm
Mostly landscapes, with some architecture interiors (mainly churches) Nothing really long (100mm equiv) Wides mostly, which I realize may be a problem.

A Canon FF with the 17 and 24 TS lenses (and others, of course) is a workable solution, but I've been mulling over the tech camera route for a while now. Not in a huge hurry, this is all for a project my wife and I are slooowly working on. My retirement is a couple of years away, that's when we'll get serious and the pace will pick up.

I'd go ahead and get the Canon - I rate my chances of finishing the job (getting something usable by third parties outside a lab) at 5%, my chances of getting to a tethered lab version at 20%.

Also, I think I will encourage the use of 35mm retrofocus wides initially, because the symmetrical designs need really precise mounting, and tolerances will get worse due to a small sensor, even if I use an Alpa for testing.

The status of the project is that I've got a feel for the requisite hardware architecture (inspired by the Apertus cine project), have located suppliers for the custom processing electronics boards I will ultimately need, and am preparing to order evaluation electronic kits. At the moment I believe I'm still in my zone of competence. I'm waiting on the partner who will share this eval phase, and the choice of initial small test sensor is still undecided.

Edmund
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: peterurban on March 17, 2014, 07:51:33 pm
By the way, this guy had a 8x10 digital "maxiback" made custom to his needs - certainly not in the price range of what most people would find acceptable but potentially lots to learn from ...

http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2011/08/23/mitchell-feinbergs-8x10-digital-capture-back/

Cheers,

P
Title: Re: other makers of larger than 35mm format sensors, for uses like medical
Post by: RichDesmond on March 17, 2014, 07:53:28 pm
I'd go ahead and get the Canon - I rate my chances of finishing the job (getting something usable by third parties outside a lab) at 5%, my chances of getting to a tethered lab version at 20%.

Also, I think I will encourage the use of 35mm retrofocus wides initially, because the symmetrical designs need really precise mounting, and tolerances will get worse due to a small sensor, even if I use an Alpa for testing.

The status of the project is that I've got a feel for the requisite hardware architecture, have located suppliers for the custom processing electronics and am preparing to order evaluation electronic kits.

Edmund

I'll probably do that regardless, I understand the hurdles. :) But that wouldn't preclude me from trying your system also if it becomes available.
FWIW, a tethered solution is fine for me, and I think anything you can do to minimize complexity will greatly increase your changes of having a workable system.
Title: Re: other makers of larger than 35mm format sensors, for uses like medical
Post by: synn on March 17, 2014, 11:03:22 pm
Mostly landscapes, with some architecture interiors (mainly churches) Nothing really long (100mm equiv) Wides mostly, which I realize may be a problem.

A Canon FF with the 17 and 24 TS lenses (and others, of course) is a workable solution, but I've been mulling over the tech camera route for a while now. Not in a huge hurry, this is all for a project my wife and I are slooowly working on. My retirement is a couple of years away, that's when we'll get serious and the pace will pick up.

A Hartblei Hcam / Alpa FPS with a digital back and Canon T/S lenses sounds perfect for your needs IMO.
Title: Re: other makers of larger than 35mm format sensors, for uses like medical
Post by: eronald on March 17, 2014, 11:23:39 pm
A Hartblei Hcam / Alpa FPS with a digital back and Canon T/S lenses sounds perfect for your needs IMO.

I agree. Or an Arca Swiss.

I'm seriously thinking of getting one of the above as a base for my own project - much cheaper because I own the lens and don't need the back :)

Edmund
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: hjulenissen on March 18, 2014, 04:14:53 am
Kind of a long shot here... How different are camera sensors really from display panels? Obviously, camera sensors convert light to a voltage (or some other suitable electric information carrier), while displays convert voltage to light (talking about e.g. OLED here, not backlighted LCD panels).

Displays can be manufactured at really large sizes and reasonably high density (4000x2000x3 elements), obviously motivated by the willingness of people to pay money for large, detailed displays. Could the large display manufacturers switch their production line for one evening, making a bunch of 10" diagonal "retina" sensors?

I guess it fundamentally is a question about the difference between a photodiode and a light-emitting diode?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active-pixel_sensor#Pixel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-emitting_diode#Physics

-h
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on March 18, 2014, 05:14:15 am
The ISORG guys I posted about earlier are adapting the flexible display production line of Plastic Logic to make their flexible sensors.


Edmund

Kind of a long shot here... How different are camera sensors really from display panels? Obviously, camera sensors convert light to a voltage (or some other suitable electric information carrier), while displays convert voltage to light (talking about e.g. OLED here, not backlighted LCD panels).

Displays can be manufactured at really large sizes and reasonably high density (4000x2000x3 elements), obviously motivated by the willingness of people to pay money for large, detailed displays. Could the large display manufacturers switch their production line for one evening, making a bunch of 10" diagonal "retina" sensors?

I guess it fundamentally is a question about the difference between a photodiode and a light-emitting diode?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active-pixel_sensor#Pixel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-emitting_diode#Physics

-h
Title: Re: other makers of larger than 35mm format sensors, for uses like medical
Post by: RichDesmond on March 18, 2014, 08:48:22 am
A Hartblei Hcam / Alpa FPS with a digital back and Canon T/S lenses sounds perfect for your needs IMO.

Yep. :)  That (or something very similar) may be what I end up with.
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: torger on March 20, 2014, 04:35:20 am
Here's another really large CMOS sensor, strange form factor though (150 megapixel 157x27.5mm):

http://www.gpixelinc.com/en/Newsinfo.aspx?m=20140313105347500252
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: MichaelEzra on April 29, 2014, 08:53:03 pm
A good friend of mine (from Israel) is offering for sale a Nikon D600 body with a damaged lens mount - it somehow broke off along with a small part of the camera body.
The damage occurred due to a very light impact to the 70-200mm lens while it was attached to the camera. Lens did not suffer:)
Camera & sensor itself is fully functional. US Nikon refused to repair this damage stating that "camera is beyond economical repair".
Please let me know if there is any interest to use this as a base for development, and your offer. I have the camera in my possession in NYC.

(http://michaelezra.com/Temp/D600_DamagedLensMount.jpg)
Title: Re: Open Source CMOS Medium Format Camera/Back - An initial exploration
Post by: eronald on April 29, 2014, 09:13:55 pm
A good friend of mine (from Israel) is offering for sale a Nikon D600 body with a damaged lens mount - it somehow broke off along with a small part of the camera body.
The damage occurred due to a very light impact to the 70-200mm lens while it was attached to the camera. Lens did not suffer:)
Camera & sensor itself is fully functional. US Nikon refused to repair this damage stating that "camera is beyond economical repair".
Please let me know if there is any interest to use this as a base for development, and your offer. I have the camera in my possession in NYC.

(http://michaelezra.com/Temp/D600_DamagedLensMount.jpg)

Michael,

 Thank you for the offer. Give me a day, I will ask my friends how hard it is to use this chip, and how it is attached.

Edmund