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Author Topic: No one knows anything article.  (Read 27303 times)

michael

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Re: No one knows anything article.
« Reply #100 on: March 14, 2014, 12:18:44 pm »

Not every company or designer is incompetent. I was not imply that. There are some very bright people out there. I have worked with many of them.

But there are also some clueless ones. And as for their business acumen, all one need do is look at the sad state of their balance sheets to see that many, if not most, haven't a clue on how to climb out of their financial hole.

So, bottom line, I have to disagree with your disagreement.

Michael
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theguywitha645d

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Re: No one knows anything article.
« Reply #101 on: March 14, 2014, 12:25:13 pm »

Really? Your post seems to imply the companies and designers are incompetent.

As for the financial situation, you have no solution for them either.

And I disagree with you as well. But like you said, no one knows anything...
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michael

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Re: No one knows anything article.
« Reply #102 on: March 14, 2014, 12:35:31 pm »

No, that may be what you read, but it's not what I wrote.

If you look closely, I was drawing an analogy, and using a phrase that has been applied to the film industry.

I worked for one of the major Japanese companies in a senior management position some years ago, in their pro video division. There were some of the smartest people I've ever worked with, and also some clueless ones. Regrettable, it was the latter who most often wielded the decision stick.

Michael

Michael
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: No one knows anything article.
« Reply #103 on: March 14, 2014, 12:52:37 pm »

Hi,

There was a boom, now we have saturation. Also, world economy is weak. On the other hand, new markets emerge and new technologies are still ahead. But, the industry needs to work harder.

Best regards
Erik


No, that may be what you read, but it's not what I wrote.

If you look closely, I was drawing an analogy, and using a phrase that has been applied to the film industry.

I worked for one of the major Japanese companies in a senior management position some years ago, in their pro video division. There were some of the smartest people I've ever worked with, and also some clueless ones. Regrettable, it was the latter who most often wielded the decision stick.

Michael

Michael
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Erik Kaffehr
 

theguywitha645d

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Re: No one knows anything article.
« Reply #104 on: March 14, 2014, 01:56:55 pm »

Well, I worked with still film and digital cameras and scanners, not video. I have come to a different conclusion. Sure there are differing levels of talent, but that stratifies with the importance of the product. You cannot keep all the projects with the aging elite. You need to develop the talent.

No, you did not slam everyone. But I do find you like to pick your winners and losers. You slam the Japanese for not innovating and then give a passing mark that Phase should be coming out with a new camera soon. They have been coming out with a new camera for a long time. Locking dials on the Df are really horrible? It seems you are just looking to complain--we certainly get you don't like the Df. Ironically, your latest post calls for simplification in cameras. BTW, things like GPS cost money to put in a camera and since the point of the Df was to simplify and they also needed to control costs, it actually makes sense they dropped the GPS from the body.

You also seem to be a bit confused about how the market developed. Lets take your Sony example. Manufacturers use existing film system mounts for two really good reasons. First, it allowed them to make DSLRs without having to go to tremendous expense of making new lens lines and some of the lines were very extensive. It also lets customers use their existing lenses and nothing angers customers like when they think the company is not supporting them. It was a win for both sides. Sony bought Minolta as a step into DSLRs as well to grab some existing customers. APS became the dominate format for amateurs because of cost. It was also cheaper for the manufacturers to start developing APS lines while having 35mm lenses available. No one, manufacturers nor customers, were going to wait for affordable 35mm sensors. It is also cheaper to make APS lenses and so, when they had APS products, they made lenses to fit--if you thought you might buy a 35mm camera, you should not have bought APS lenses. (APS also needed wides which would have been really hard to make with a 35mm image circle.) Sony had the foresight or luck to make the NEX mount large enough to handle a 35mm chip, but knew it needed to be an APS camera as they were unsure if that would be a consumer camera or an enthusiast camera. They certainly adapted and changed as the market shifted, even driving new markets. Sony has now decided to make another risky move to a FF NEX or a7 series camera. Cameras are expensive to produce as well as lens lines--they do have an a-mount adapter for their DSLR customers. So you are going to have to wait for the lenses. But if this venture fails, then Sony needs to pull out. Lets hope consumers like the cameras and buy them. That is how it works. But the mount development is far from random.

Hasselblad is an outlier, at least their space-shot series. That project was clearly from someone outside the industry that felt they knew how to make cameras better. All that example says is you need more than an MBA to work in the camera industry. I also think you will find this venture will fail miserably. And Hassleblad has not been the first to make this mistake. But this is hardly indicative of the market or industry.

I am sorry, but I simply do not see your premise that "many camera dogs" are produced. Nor that the industry has their heads stuck in the sand. The shrinking industry may well be beyond their control simply because people don't want cameras--you can't make people buy what they don't want.
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theguywitha645d

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Re: No one knows anything article.
« Reply #105 on: March 14, 2014, 02:00:39 pm »

But, the industry needs to work harder.

At what point in history has the camera industry been more innovative than in the last ten years? Or even five years?
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michael

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Re: No one knows anything article.
« Reply #106 on: March 14, 2014, 02:14:12 pm »

Absolutely – the past 10 years have been the most innovative. At least in terms of digital sensor technology. But not necessarily cameras per se.

But if you read what I wrote, you'll see that even this isn't enough reason to give them a "pass". They have produced some truly wretched designs, and need to be called on the carpet for it.

It's not all black and white, and I didn't imply that it was.

Michael
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jrsforums

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Re: No one knows anything article.
« Reply #107 on: March 14, 2014, 03:01:53 pm »

Absolutely – the past 10 years have been the most innovative. At least in terms of digital sensor technology. But not necessarily cameras per se.

But if you read what I wrote, you'll see that even this isn't enough reason to give them a "pass". They have produced some truly wretched designs, and need to be called on the carpet for it.

It's not all black and white, and I didn't imply that it was.

Michael


Envisioning a product, such as a camera or computer, takes looking into a crystal ball 4 to 5 years before the products birth and trying to determine the market requirements and technology that will be available.  Then building a creation plan that deals with all the changes, opinions, business conditions along the way.  Sometimes it works, sometimes not so much.  Those who succeed are successful creators most of the time.

One thing that is true....it is a lot harder to create than to criticize.
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John

jjj

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Re: No one knows anything article.
« Reply #108 on: March 14, 2014, 03:04:55 pm »

One thing that is true....it is a lot harder to create than to criticize.
I'd say it's also a lot easier to create than to get unimaginative people to realise you've come up with a good idea and thus get it made.
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Rob C

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Re: No one knows anything article.
« Reply #109 on: March 14, 2014, 03:40:13 pm »

I'd say it's also a lot easier to create than to get unimaginative people to realise you've come up with a good idea and thus get it made.



And baby, that applies not only to CAMERAS! I remember driving home almost in tears of frustration from some meetings with clients, good ideas crushed and new formats of design squashed because the old was 'us'! And as I guess will happen or has happened with cameras, initial rejection will become acceptance and enthusiasm when it comes from a different source, by which time it's forgotten that you'd already suggested whatever it was a couple of years back, and so you become yesterday's news.

No wonder folks become brickies, plumbers and sparks!

Rob C

Christoph C. Feldhaim

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Re: No one knows anything article.
« Reply #110 on: March 14, 2014, 04:30:09 pm »



And baby, that applies not only to CAMERAS! I remember driving home almost in tears of frustration from some meetings with clients, good ideas crushed and new formats of design squashed because the old was 'us'! And as I guess will happen or has happened with cameras, initial rejection will become acceptance and enthusiasm when it comes from a different source, by which time it's forgotten that you'd already suggested whatever it was a couple of years back, and so you become yesterday's news.

No wonder folks become brickies, plumbers and sparks!

Rob C

Yup - people want security, not creativity.
No risk - no fun - so now you know where the fun has gone ...
Cheers
~Chris

Telecaster

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Re: No one knows anything article.
« Reply #111 on: March 14, 2014, 06:57:12 pm »

Yup - people want security, not creativity.
No risk - no fun - so now you know where the fun has gone ...

IMO we're all walking, talking contradictions. We want security and we value creativity. We crave certainty but we're also inquisitive. We work to maintain the status quo in some areas while hoping for & even trying to drive revolutionary change in others. We can be brilliant in some areas and complete brickheads in others. This last one applies to camera designers & makers too.   ;)

-Dave-
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Isaac

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Most people buying a camera with full 35mm format sensor have little interest in buying lenses for that camera which are designed for "APS-C" sized sensor and so which must be used with a crop. … I doubt that Sony will be able to sustain development of a full range of lens quality in more than one of its current four combinations of format size and lens mount.

It may be that some of those people already have lenses designed for "APS-C".

It may be that some of those people find it convenient to use lenses designed for "APS-C" on their full 35mm format sensor.

Quote
"I do find that 36mp is too much for most work, almost 207mb saved as a tiff!  I'm now using the Sony 10-18mm F/4 on it, and get much more realistic files, 15.3mp in crop mode, for a saved tiff of nearly 88mb.  I usually dump the RAW and full size tiffs when the job is finalized, but that may be weeks.  Most of my work is for either commercial websites or Real Estate, so 36mp is  too much; you only need about 2000 tack sharp pixels wide, a really good lens with 12-16mp is fine.  I'd recommend the A7 for most people, that's what I'd buy if I had to do it over."
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BJL

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It may be that some of those people already have lenses designed for "APS-C".

It may be that some of those people find it convenient to use lenses designed for "APS-C" on their full 35mm format sensor.
Agreed; but that is mostly about existing lens that people already own, not Sony putting the effort into further development of such lenses, or of users of 35mm format cameras choosing to buy lenses that are only useful with a heavy crop.  Some uses might arise, but not enough to contribute much to sales of "APS-C" crop lenses to users of 35mm format cameras.  For a hint of the future that I expect, look at how Canon and Nikon have stopped developing anything beyond f/5.6 zooms for their EF-S and DX formats, and then factor in Sony's lower sales volume and revenues (despite a lot of online optimism, Sony is nowhere close to challenging for #2 in the ILC market.)
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Isaac

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For a hint of the future that I expect…

I suppose we ought to note that Sony have 4 full-frame E-mount lenses for sale, with another ready to ship 04-15-2014; and 17 crop E-mount lenses.

The store website shows 24 full-frame A-mount lenses, and 12 crop A-mount lenses. There already are more Sony E-mount crop lenses than Sony A-mount crop lenses.

I don't know what they'll do in the future.

The $13,000 500mm f/4.0 Super Telephoto Lens is on back-order expected to ship 04-10-2014 -- I wonder how many have been made and who's buying them and how much profit Sony make on them?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 12:56:16 pm by Isaac »
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