Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6   Go Down

Author Topic: No one knows anything article.  (Read 27788 times)

peterzpicts

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14
Re: No one knows anything article.
« Reply #60 on: February 28, 2014, 07:35:23 pm »

Spot on as usual Mike,
I must speak up for Yamaki-san and Sigma.
Sigma's Global vision line seems to be hitting a sweet spot as far as a balance between performance and price. True that.
However I think we need to put the SD1 pricing debacle in perspective with the benefit of hindsight.
Looking at time lines it appears Michihiro (Yamaki Senior) was suffering from Ill health evidenced by his passing about 6 months after the release of SD1.  Kazuto-san has eluded to the initial yield of the Merrill generation chips was so poor, maybe one or two per wafer that their costs would make the SD1 not manufactureable. I suspect the decision was made to ship it at the cost of manufacturing.  Allowing Michihirio to ship the highest resolution camera short of MF as his capstone achievement for the short time until the D800 appeared.
Obviously in the intervening time the wafer processing issues were worked through and props should be given for the corrective actions taken with the release of the Merrill versions.  I thought the gift points towards Sigma gear for the few who ponied up for a SD1 a nice peace offering.
Paul
Logged

Fine_Art

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1172
Re: No one knows anything article.
« Reply #61 on: February 28, 2014, 10:18:44 pm »

Eh?  Did we read the same article?  I don't see any moaning.  Michael was giving his opinion on the current directions the major players in the camera industry are going.  And I really don't think the analogy with "bad workmen blaming their tools" comes into it.  Quite the reverse, Michael - if you have bothered to read many of his previous reviews and essays - is of the opinion that image quality is pretty much a given these days.  But it is the design and ease of use that defines the choice and success of gear.  Michael used whatever he pleases to suit the task in hand, and is in the possibly fortunate position of being able to play with most of the worthwhile cameras in current production.  In fact it is precisely because such "fantastic times photographically" are here that it is worth seeing perhaps where certain manufacturers may be going wrong in their implementation of technology.
We don't want Canon or Nikon to stop making cameras because they missed the boat in looking at new formats.  Michael doesn't want Hasselblad going down the pan because they wasted money on ridiculous niche jewellery.

Yes, we all like different things, I don't think Michael is denying that.  But he's wondering why manufacturers, despite their huge resources, go down a cul-de-sac in design terms.  Did Sony really mean to end up with four lens mounts?  They have obviously made a mistake in planning/foresight somewhere, but it is not being argued they don't make superb cameras.

I'm not sure why you have such a negative take on the article when everything stated is probably fairly accurate and in any case just MR's opinion.  Write your own piece, or instead of being so negative write a reply that states specifically why you think say Sony or Nikon has got it exactly right, and provide some evidence to counter Michael's point of view.

Lastly, I hope you are a very talented photographer because to accuse MR of being a 'Bad Workman' shows that you do not believe in getting or showing evidence before making strong statements.  Michael is the founder of this site and he is perfectly entitled to write an opinion piece about the current state of the industry as he sees it.

Jim

Yeah, I was going to jump on this post as well. I thought I better  read down a few posts first to see who has beat me to it. The only sour grapes is from the poster.

#1) Michael is right in his analysis of the products.
#2) Michael is right in his opinion of how the companies are performing.
#3) the probability your photography can hold a candle to his is close to 0.

In particular the comments on Sony are exactly the problem I had with what they are doing. Their sensor technology is the best, I don't think anyone doubts that. Their camera division seems to be taking a ride on that, selling crippled solutions that will force you to buy again. Hence I went to Nikon which has an impressive product in the D600/800. I refused to ever buy a DT lens so if Sony gets their act together by a few years time, I might buy another sony.

I bet others can look at his words on the manufacturer they deal with and say, yeah, he nailed it.

Andy Grove, the ex CEO of Intel wrote a book on the difficulty of seeing the "inflection point" of the business. He used that phrase in the sense of the mathematical point on a graph. I think decision node is better. It has more in common with a decision tree than going from concave up to down or vice versa. The significance of his point stands, everyone is limited by their interpretation of what the have experienced. Others see the world differently. Building a product based on your expectations may not work. What is worse is the whole landscape is changing so by the time that product is ready who knows what else is going on. Yes, it is a very complicated situation, far more complex that controlled science in a lab.

If I was nitpicky I would suggest a small change to the title Noone knows everything they need to. That may be more precise but it loses the ability to make the point Michael made without explanation. So his choice of words is the best.

Michael still has it!
Logged

jjj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4728
    • http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com
Re: No one knows anything article.
« Reply #62 on: March 01, 2014, 12:20:17 pm »

In particular the comments on Sony are exactly the problem I had with what they are doing. Their sensor technology is the best, I don't think anyone doubts that. Their camera division seems to be taking a ride on that, selling crippled solutions that will force you to buy again.
That was Sony's business model in video and that sort of attitude is why RED ended being started as Sony weren't the only ones.
Logged
Tradition is the Backbone of the Spinele

graeme

  • Guest
Re: No one knows anything article.
« Reply #63 on: March 02, 2014, 07:25:46 am »

'smart people can also be incredibly stupid'

Yes they can, especially when they step outside their area of expertise and assume that their smartness will be enough.
Logged

iau

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3
Re: No one knows anything article.
« Reply #64 on: March 02, 2014, 08:45:53 am »

Reading the comments about the Nikon Df reminded me about something that I experienced this week. I just got the new Fuji X-T1. Great looking camera and love the feel/controls. BUT I accidentially bump the video button and started filming while carrying the camera. This happens without me knowing it.

I wish Fuji had done what Nikon did with the Df and skipped video. If they couldn't  they should at least make it possible to disable and configure the button to something useful for me. I can't even remove the symbol for1080p HD in the viewfinder. Such small things can be very annoying when everything else seems to be so well done.
Logged

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600

... I accidentially bump the video button and started filming while carrying the camera. This happens without me knowing it.

I wish Fuji had done what Nikon did with the Df and skipped video.
That would be "treating dandruff by decapitation", in the words of Frank Zappa. [EDIT: "dandruff" not "acne"; I misremembered the quote.]

Some far more reasonable solutions are:
- to allow the video button to be reprogrammed to a different function or disabled entirely
or
- to have no dedicated video button but instead access video as a mode setting, using the usual shutter release button.

For example, I have my "red dot" button do AEL/AFL; on the rare occasions when I want video, I access it through the mode dial.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 11:03:04 am by BJL »
Logged

jjj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4728
    • http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com
Re: No one knows anything article.
« Reply #66 on: March 02, 2014, 11:01:31 am »

That would be "treating acne by decapitation", in the words of Frank Zappa.
Spot on. ;)
Logged
Tradition is the Backbone of the Spinele

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
Re: No one knows anything article.
« Reply #67 on: March 02, 2014, 11:07:01 am »

Pity I wasn't spot on in my quotation!
Logged

TeeKay

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 33
Wrong about Pentax (No one knows anything article.)
« Reply #68 on: March 02, 2014, 02:12:19 pm »

Mr. Reichmann writes about Pentax that "their DSLRs, while quite nice machines, don't really blaze any new ground".

The optional Bayer-AA-Filter for the K-3 is pretty new ground blazing, AFAIC.

All cameras without Bayer-AA-filters today are not fit for purpose for certain situations as they will cause moiré and colour artifacts that irrevocably destroy information.

Having a permanent Bayer-AA-filter was the only remedy so far.

The Pentax K-3 uses its sensor-based shake reduction mechanics to introduce a very small amount of blur whenever the photographer asks for it in order to avoid aliasing.
There are even two levels to choose from.

And BTW, a camera does not need to be outstanding in any one discipline. I'd rather choose a camera that is great in all aspects for a very affordable price than one that is outstanding in one area but only good in others and costs and arm and a leg. A true photographer is not looking for a new ground blazing camera. A true photographer looks for a tool that is right for the intended application area. The small and weathersealed bodies by Pentax are very fit for a number of purposes. That they now also beat the competition in frames-per-second or low-light AF capabilities are welcome extras, but by no means requirements.
Logged

ndevlin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 679
    • Follow me on Twitter

That would be "treating dandruff by decapitation", in the words of Frank Zappa. [EDIT: "dandruff" not "acne"; I misremembered the quote.]
I'm going to disagree on this one.  Video, unless done right, is utterly useless.  Very few camera makers do it right.  I would much rather skip the extra button and the extra ports on the camera, than have a 'feature' I will literally never use. 

If I ever do video seriously, I will chose a good video (or video enabled) camera, which will not be the same as my stills camera.  In the meantime, my iphone does quite adequate video for my 'needs'.

Just my 2c. I agree Nikon ,may have left it off as a gimmick, but it's not a wrong choice. The price on the Df, however, is obnoxious.

- N.
Logged
Nick Devlin   @onelittlecamera        ww

jjj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4728
    • http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com
Re: No one knows anything article.
« Reply #70 on: March 03, 2014, 11:50:27 am »

Nick, I'm going to both disagree and also agree with you about video on DSLRs.
If you just want to shoot some amateur video footage then yes a dedicated small chip video camera or even an iPhone is more ergonomic/practical. But if you are interesting in film making then cameras like the 5Ds are just fine and dandy.
A camera body in the film world is simply a small part of a more complex rig of equipment. It is basically no more than a recording device with a lens mount, on/off switch and the ability to change exposure settings. And just because some folks here do not use the video, does not mean many others do not. I never use P or S mode on my camera and A mode once in a blue moon as I shoot manually nearly all the time, yet I've ended up in modes other than manual on numerous occasions as the 5DII didn't have a lock on the very easily moved mode dial. A lock on the 5DIII solved that problem, as would a similar solution with 'rec' buttons on DSLRs or better completely customisable buttons.
An included feature that a few people do not use, very rarely stops people buying cameras. Missing features like video however will stop many more from making a purchase.

I've never understood why camera makers/software designers are so reluctant to allow customisation. It will get rid of a huge numbers of complaints re ergonomics as people can set up their kit to suit their often quite specific needs and everyone wins.  ;D
Logged
Tradition is the Backbone of the Spinele

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600

That would be "treating dandruff by decapitation" ... Some far more reasonable solutions are:
- to allow the video button to be reprogrammed to a different function or disabled entirely
or
- to have no dedicated video button but instead access video as a mode setting, using the usual shutter release button.
I'm going to disagree on this one.  Video, unless done right, is utterly useless.  Very few camera makers do it right.  I would much rather skip the extra button and the extra ports on the camera, than have a 'feature' I will literally never use.  

If I ever do video seriously, I will chose a good video (or video enabled) camera, which will not be the same as my stills camera.  In the meantime, my iphone does quite adequate video for my 'needs'.
Nick,

I respect your high standards, and your preference to use two separate, dedicated, optimized tool kits for still and video photography (or rather to reject any intermediate option between that optimal tool and iPhone video snapshots).
However, that is irrelevant to the fact that:
- the sensor and other electronic hardware of the Df could easily support a video capability that many people would find useful (if only to allow them to record both still and video images while wandering through Scottish forests without having to carry twice as much gear: one irony of those Df adds was that in places, the motion of the scene added much to the idyllic impression),
and
- enabling those inherent video capabilities would have a negligible adverse impact on cost or ease of use for stills photography.
As I said in the post you  are responding to, no extra button is needed, so why did you repeat that criticism? For example the Pentax K-5 takes the option of just adding one "video" notch on the mode dial, using the normal shutter release button to activate video recording.
The price on the Df, however, is obnoxious.
Indeed: and this is probably in part due to the disabling of video capabilities (along with rejecting the user-inteface developments enabled by modern electronic controls that the majority of SLR users clearly prefer). Adding video could have broadened the potential customer base, leading to increased sales volume and so shifting down the most profitable retail price level. You always pay a premium for distinguishing yourself from the "herd" of the marketplace in a way that brings no benefit beyond identifying your egregious tastes.
Logged

ndevlin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 679
    • Follow me on Twitter
Re: No one knows anything article.
« Reply #72 on: March 03, 2014, 01:44:51 pm »

I know what you're saying, but video, imho, is not for dabblers.  Unless the camera can do professional-level video in all respects (sound, codec, etc) to me it's pointless.  My videographer friends who dabble in stills always wonder why the camera makers bother with video. Canon, Sony and a few others apparently often get it right, which is why the 5DIII is a popular video tool. But on things like the Df, why?

But yes...it's omission was almost certainly a marketing decision.   Less-for-more  ;)

- N.
Logged
Nick Devlin   @onelittlecamera        ww

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
Re: No one knows anything article.
« Reply #73 on: March 03, 2014, 02:19:56 pm »

Unless the camera can do professional-level video in all respects (sound, codec, etc) to me it's pointless.
Indeed: you are talking about your personal preferences for video; I am talking about the fact that a great many potential customers have different opinions, and that Nikon's decision has made the Df obviously inferior for many photographers while not making it one iota better for you or any other "pure photographer" --- unless you can explain how having a "video" position on the mode dial that you can choose never to use significantly impairs your usage of a camera for stills photography.

Given your comment that "my iphone does quite adequate video for my 'needs'", I am puzzled why you would prefer to have to pull out a phone for such needs, rather that switching your DSLR to video mode if you happen to have it with you.

One again, the bottom line for me is that no one has demonstrated any practical disadvantage to proving video capabilities if done in a suitable way, like the Pentax K-5 approach of having no dedicated video button or switch.
Logged

jjj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4728
    • http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com
Re: No one knows anything article.
« Reply #74 on: March 03, 2014, 03:15:29 pm »

I know what you're saying, but video, imho, is not for dabblers.
Have you not seen YouTube!?! :o

Quote
Unless the camera can do professional-level video in all respects (sound, codec, etc) to me it's pointless.  My videographer friends who dabble in stills always wonder why the camera makers bother with video. Canon, Sony and a few others apparently often get it right, which is why the 5DIII is a popular video tool. But on things like the Df, why?
Because photographers sometimes like to grab some footage and have no interest in carry a full on professional video camera.
The reason cameras maker incorporate video is because on the whole the end user really likes it and it sells cameras. Previously people who were not film makers would have to buy a video camera as that was the only option. Once digital pocket cameras added video then for most people that was all they need. Just like a phone can do pictures that satisfy the vast majority of folks photographic needs.
Logged
Tradition is the Backbone of the Spinele

bcooter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1520
Re: No one knows anything article.
« Reply #75 on: March 03, 2014, 07:52:41 pm »


I know what you're saying, but video, imho, is not for dabblers.  Unless the camera can do professional-level video in all respects (sound, codec, etc) to me it's pointless.  My videographer friends who dabble in stills always wonder why the camera makers bother with video. Canon, Sony and a few others apparently often get it right, which is why the 5DIII is a popular video tool. But on things like the Df, why?

But yes...it's omission was almost certainly a marketing decision.   Less-for-more  ;)

- N.

My wish is just to see a maker not predetermine a market.

I think that's what Michael's essay is about.    I know from a lifetime of projects, the projects that worked had inspiration, the willingness to adapt to the situation and a goal to produce the best work that could be done on the day.

No segment oriented thought, no playing to a single age, ethnic, geographical, monetary market only.    Just produce the best still, movie, commercial, utube, flicker, instigram piece  you can and you'd be amazed that how many people it will pull from every demographic.*

Same with cameras.

I think the whole DF thing is a marketing ploy.  I like Nikons, the film versions more than the digital models, but in an era of declining sales, I don't see the point in hobbling anything.

It seems to me that since olympus was first out of the block (other than Leicas M series) with a digital camera that had some of the look of a traditional film camera everyone followed suit.  Nikon, Sony and Fuji.

But the DF is what it is and it's not for my work, though if the Sony A7 had the codecs, the autofocus of the Panasonic gh3/4 and the still capabilities of the Olympus em5/1, Sony would have gotten my money, because when you combine the pana and the oly given they use the same lens mount, you really have one system that works well in both still and motion imagery.

If only the olympus would hardwire tether to a computer, then they'd be about perfect, but the A7 is all over the map.

Lots of lens options, but few new native lenses, xlr inputs for sound, headphone jack to monitor, but a small 28mbs codec in 2k.

Also the autofocus sensors don't  cover the whole sensor which confuses me with a mirrorless camera and these aren't features that aren't out there now, they're just features that are either limited due to price or omitted to rush a product to market . . . or worse Sony is afraid to get into territory that covers their higher priced cameras.

Digital cameras aren't film cameras, but could learn a few lessons from what worked in the past, what would work today.

From the past, having an f stop ring on the lenses and a shutter dial on the body is simple and doesn't take any thought as to which dial does what.

Right angle grips that have all the controls on the grip (including being able to move the focus points) are smart and have been around a long time.

For new think, the Fuji Xti viewfinder that does a second screen for spot focus is ingenious, mirrorless, if good and you take the time to get used to it can an amazing aid.

A mix of modern and old, like the olympus add on  finder that goes horizontal to vertical gives you options that most medium format cameras don't even offer today.

IMO

BC

*of the projects we've produced that didn't have great success were always because they were limited to a certain segment or over thought.   In other words they were limited by a set of rules before we even started.   Nothing great ever comes out of fear which is a form of limiting a service or product.


Logged

jjj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4728
    • http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com
Re: No one knows anything article.
« Reply #76 on: March 03, 2014, 08:35:11 pm »

*of the projects we've produced that didn't have great success were always because they were limited to a certain segment or over thought.   In other words they were limited by a set of rules before we even started.   Nothing great ever comes out of fear which is a form of limiting a service or product.
Or from committees, but then fear is probably the issue there too.
Logged
Tradition is the Backbone of the Spinele

jjj

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4728
    • http://www.futtfuttfuttphotography.com
Re: No one knows anything article.
« Reply #77 on: March 03, 2014, 08:43:58 pm »

Digital cameras aren't film cameras, but could learn a few lessons from what worked in the past, what would work today.

From the past, having an f stop ring on the lenses and a shutter dial on the body is simple and doesn't take any thought as to which dial does what.
Even better have aperture on lens as you suggest and shutter speed around lens mount like the OM cameras. Way better than the fiddly dial on top of camera. Which sadly the X-T1 has emulated.

Quote
Right angle grips that have all the controls on the grip (including being able to move the focus points) are smart and have been around a long time.
And if you are going to have right angle grips, make sure all the controls are in exactly the same place as when the camera is horizontal. Unlike on the X-T1, which is it's other serious demerit. A shame as I really liked the camera otherwise, particularly the viewfinder.

Logged
Tradition is the Backbone of the Spinele

John Rausch

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7
Re: No one knows anything article.
« Reply #78 on: March 06, 2014, 08:21:02 pm »

The big problem with that shutter speed dial is the old ones ranged from B to 1,000 or 2,000 and had 1/2 stop (sometimes) increments. We now expect 1/3 stop increments and a shutter speed up to 4,000. That's a who bunch of clicks for a reasonably sized dial.

On the X-T1 the dial only clicks in at full stops and the command wheel is used to "fine turn" +/- 2/3 stop. I find it annoying and often go back and forth between the two controls. It would be a very crowded and likely unreadable dial to cover that many positions.

With a large unmarked wheel with the shutter speed reading out on an LCD (better idea, an e-ink display, on even when the camera is off) you can spin it around as much as necessary to get the shutter speed you want. Plus, you can set in the menu settings the increment you want to use, 1/2 or 1/3 stop.

Someone tell me how this can work on a single physical dial.
Logged

trichardlin

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 71
Re: No one knows anything article.
« Reply #79 on: March 06, 2014, 08:48:53 pm »

Even better have aperture on lens as you suggest and shutter speed around lens mount like the OM cameras. Way better than the fiddly dial on top of camera. Which sadly the X-T1 has emulated.

Good in theory, until you need to quickly switch mode or do any sort of customization (as Michael mentioned in his article).  It can be done, but the confusion it brings is not worth it.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6   Go Up