GM1 Review-- What's wrong with bifocals?

[Rhossydd]

Would laser surgery help your eyes?

No, as I said my vision at distances over 5ft is excellent, so any sort of surgical intervention would harm my normal eyesight.
It's known as 'lack of accommodation'. Simply put, as you get older your eye muscles loss their ability to pull close subjects into focus. It pretty much happens to everyone eventually.

Simple answer: Good optical viewfinders on cameras.

[David S]

No, as I said my vision at distances over 5ft is excellent, so any sort of surgical intervention would harm my normal eyesight.
It's known as 'lack of accommodation'. Simply put, as you get older your eye muscles loss their ability to pull close subjects into focus. It pretty much happens to everyone eventually.

Simple answer: Good optical viewfinders on cameras.

Any good view finder will work for me as I am quite happy with EVFs.
Problem is that most of the "market" is younger and has the eye sight of youth just like I did those many years ago. Sometime about 50 or so, the issue made it's appearance. I have no trouble at even 4 feet but cannot ready anything smaller than 18 point type without "reading" glasses.

So viewfinder or nothing!

Dave

[BJL]

Simple answer: Good optical eye-level viewfinders on cameras

be they optical or electronic.

[Rhossydd]

be they optical or electronic.

No, as I said at reply #16

eye level electronic viewfinders .... They're just nowhere near good enough yet.

[jjj]

Michael's comments on viewfinders in the review are pretty much bang on for me, although I also loath eye level electronic viewfinders on still cameras too. They're just nowhere near good enough yet.

Oh I'd disagree with that. As although they are not as good as they will eventually be, they are better than OVFs in many ways already.
Manual focusing wide aperture lenses for example when shooting wide open is simply not possible to do with any accuracy with my Canons. The reason - the focusing screen reduces apparent aperture to f2.8 so it's impossible to accurately focus a f1.4 lens. This completely caught me out when I first tried it, plus the image looked so very different with a much shallower depth of field it makes composition harder. Which brings me to the fact that your view is wysiwig which is far better than viewing something that bears little relationship to what you are actually taking. You can see white balance or exposure issues, you can view in B+W or whatever colour style you fancy, very useful. I'd say the EVF in the Fuji is more useful than the OVF in my 5Ds and finally it's a decent size too. Almost as big as my antique OM cameras. 

[Rhossydd]

Almost as big as my antique OM cameras. 

Quite.
Part of the problem right now is so many newcomers to photography don't appreciate how good optical viewfinders can be, so settle for second rate EVF horrors.

[jjj]

Part of the problem right now is so many newcomers to photography don't appreciate how good optical viewfinders can be, so settle for second rate EVF horrors.

Have you looked at recent EVFs? They are very good and as I said above superior to OVFs in several ways.

[Rhossydd]

Have you looked at recent EVFs?

Yes, including the supposedly wonderful new Sony one. It's grim, I'd rather use a APS-C DSLR.

[jjj]

The EVF in the X-T1 beats the pants off any APS-C looking down a pokey hole viewfinder It's also bigger and better for focusing than my FF bodies and getting things in focus is a key requisite in my books for viewfinder functionality.  

[Rhossydd]

getting things in focus is a key requisite in my books for viewfinder functionality.

Never had a problem with that myself.

[jjj]

Never had a problem with that myself.

Well you can't manually focus fast lenses accurately with Canon focusing screens [I think Nikons are the same], no matter how skilled you are. An f1.4 is effectively f2.8 [DoF], so an EVF is vastly superior in that regard.

[BJL]

Yes, including the supposedly wonderful new Sony one. It's grim, I'd rather use a APS-C DSLR.

Since this thread is originally about a consumer level 4/3" format camera, I am glad that you are not comparing to the OVFs of medium format cameras, or vintage manual focus 35mm format cameras.  So tell me, which APS-C DSLR has a viewfinder that you find superior to the best current EVF offerings? And in which respects is that OVF superior for your usage? (I suspect that you and I have very different needs and criteria for VF's).

[jjj]

I can't stand APSC viewfinders, it's like peering down a tunnel, awful things. So no idea why anyone would think they are good. Let alone a superior product.

[Rhossydd]

So tell me, which APS-C DSLR has a viewfinder that you find superior to the best current EVF offerings? And in which respects is that OVF superior for your usage? (I suspect that you and I have very different needs and criteria for VF's).

EOS 1100D which happened to be on the same stand as the new Sony A7(?) at a store I went to.

I just really hate EVFs. I spend my entire working life with the best ones available for video work, but for stills I want an optical viewfinder.

[Telecaster]

I just really hate EVFs. I spend my entire working life with the best ones available for video work, but for stills I want an optical viewfinder.

Suit yourself, of course. But I'll take truly accurate manual focusing, optional in-finder histograms, etc. any day over the glories of the optical experience. These things are genuinely useful! I do video with my "still" cameras now too...for this EVFs are a huge plus. I do enjoy using my old SLRs, made back when the optical finders really were good, but I'll never buy another camera that doesn't have a full-featured EVF.

-Dave-

[jjj]

EOS 1100D which happened to be on the same stand as the new Sony A7(?) at a store I went to.

So you like tunnel like OVFs and not being able to manually focus fast lenses then? 

I just really hate EVFs. I spend my entire working life with the best ones available for video work, but for stills I want an optical viewfinder.

I agree video camera EVFs are awful, but the ones in video cameras are nothing like as good as the new Olympus/Fuji ones. I've never liked EVFs before these cameras, now I wish my Canon had them.

[Rhossydd]

So you like tunnel like OVFs and not being able to manually focus fast lenses then? 

No, read what I wrote. I thought the EOS optical viewfinder nicer to use than the A7. That doesn't mean that it's my preferred choice of camera.
I'll say again, I don't have difficulties with focusing.

I agree video camera EVFs are awful

Again you're not commenting on what I've written.
Some viewfinders for video cameras are fit for purpose. I'm now usually using a Sony HDVF EL75 it's as good as video viewfinders get, but it's not exactly a cheap option.

[jjj]

No, read what I wrote. I thought the EOS optical viewfinder nicer to use than the A7. That doesn't mean that it's my preferred choice of camera.

Looks like you are the one not reading correctly!  
I didn't say it was your preferred camera, just that you like tunnel like viewfinders which is what you get on APS-C cameras.

I'll say again, I don't have difficulties with focusing.

And more misreading. You must not use fast lenses then I take it [>f2.8]. Because as has been mentioned several the fact that you cannot accurately manual focus them on a ground glass screen as minimum DoF is f2.8.
I've tested this. Focus with OVF and then check with live view and big differences can be observed.

Again you're not commenting on what I've written.
Some viewfinders for video cameras are fit for purpose. I'm now usually using a Sony HDVF EL75 it's as good as video viewfinders get, but it's not exactly a cheap option.

Except, you are the one not reading as I was referring to video viewfinders not ext monitors.

[Rhossydd]

Looks like you are the one not reading correctly!  
I didn't say it was your preferred camera, just that you like tunnel like viewfinders which is what you get on APS-C cameras.

Go back and read what I actually said, Reply #27
" the supposedly wonderful new Sony one. It's grim, I'd rather use a APS-C DSLR."
Let me spell that out for you. I'd prefer to use a APS-C DSLR viewfinder compared to a Sony A7. OK? Nothing about preferring to use an APS-C viewfinder in general.

And more misreading. You must not use fast lenses then I take it [>f2.8].

Again I'm NOT misreading like you.
I don't have difficulties with focusing. No I don't use wide aperture lenses, never suggested I do.

Except, you are the one not reading as I was referring to video viewfinders not ext monitors.

The HDVF EL75 IS a viewfinder, not an external monitor. Check the specs, it only has a viewfinder input and doesn't take a normal video feed.
If you had any knowledge of broadcast camera technology you'd understand that.

Why spend so much time making a fool of yourself arguing over my preference ?
I don't like EVFs, you're welcome to them, I don't need them.

[jjj]

 I really do not mind what your preferences are and you're perfectly entitled to prefer one thing over another. It would be stupid to make you change.
But you are denying some facts, not opinions, facts.  Modern EVFs in stills cameras, have advantages over optical viewfinders that for many people have huge advantages. In particular manually focussing fast lenses, which OVFs simply fail at. And is about as fundamental a flaw as you can get. Just because you have not encountered a problem, doesn't mean it isn't one.
I have some fast primes which sadly are tricky to focus with Canon's OVFs and I don't need glasses either.
Focussing screens on cameras with AF are not very good at manual focusing when compared to cameras without AF.