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Author Topic: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting  (Read 65649 times)

TMARK

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #160 on: January 22, 2014, 04:53:38 pm »

Sorry, I'm sick and cranky, had some wisdom teeth out.  I stand by the sentiment but maybe not the profanity.

;D  :D  LOL….  ???  :P
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TMARK

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #161 on: January 22, 2014, 04:54:51 pm »

I know, generally, what it means.  I apologize for the profanity, but the sentiment remains.

best,

TM

The quantum efficiency shit means, in a nutshell, that you will not get a clean file at 3200 iso. Or that you may get a clean file, but with the smearing effects of noise reduction.

And your average max lens aperture will still be f/3.5-f/4.0. MF lenses are slow.
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eronald

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #162 on: January 22, 2014, 05:05:47 pm »

Sorry, I'm sick and cranky, had some wisdom teeth out.  I stand by the sentiment but maybe not the profanity.


I recommend baby food, the stuff in little pots, surprisingly tasty actually. I found a starter pot, a couple of main dishes and a couple of fruit purees would make a decent though not very cheap meal.

The big advantage of these is you can get them anywhere.

Edmund
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bcooter

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #163 on: January 22, 2014, 05:06:54 pm »

I don't care about any of this shit.  Quantum efficiancy blah blah f____ blah.  Where the rubber meets the road is what is important.  If I could have had a back that produced a clean 1600 - 2000iso in 2008, when we started in motion and I lit everything with ARRI Fresnel's and HMIs, I would have kept using the backs.  At the time the only option was the P65+ using sensor plus.  The f__k if I was going to spend $40k for a 15mpx file for a still image, which in terms of ad production work, is an after thought.  I had already sold my P30+ (same chip as the H31?) to spend copious amounts of money on Red stuff, which actually returned the investment quickly, even in the depths of the recession.

And no, I'm not excited about CMOS.  I think it will be different.  If it does make a clean file at 1600 - 2000iso, it re-opens the door to MF for many professional ad shooters.  I think that's great.


I agree with you on most points.   For video I can use medium format for most of the still work as my p30 will go to 800.  The issue with me and medium format on a motion project isn't the file quality, it's the time involved we have available to shoot the stills.  That's why I bought an S2.

I will be quite happy when I rid myself of most 35mm dslrs as I find them boring and old tech and not old tech in a good way.

But your right, all this white paper crap means nothing, because nobody has used the camera yet and conjecture and real world are miles apart.

The question I would ask (though I know the answer) is the people that will complain about the new medium format cameras will be from people that wouldn't buy them anyway, so who cares?   I doubt seriously if the medium format companies do.   Don't waste time with people that won't hire you, only go to the ones that will.  

I would think that good photographers would jump up and down happy for more options, not bitch like little girls that caught their boyfriend kissing their best friend.

I think that people that bitch about medium format are basically just pissed that the prices of medium format costs what it does.  There the same as RED haters in the cinema world.  Either they want cameras to be a million dollars that everybody has to rent,  or cost less than a cheap dinner.

To me that's the worse part, because I know the people that make, sell and service these larger than 35mm still cameras and they offer professional, honest service, not Amazon click, guess and save 4 dollars sales models.

Because they offer this service they need to be compensated, and being compensated is not a dirty word.  

In your comment about the RED's mine paid for themselves 10 times over in the first year.   Some was the image quality, some the usability and some was the seriousness of the service our studios provide.

I decided if I was going to go into motion I wasn't going to f__k around and I didn't buy 1 I bought 3.   The two R1's dropped in price like a rock a year after i owned them and that didn't matter a whit to me, because they still work and (gasp) they present a professional production and shoot a beautiful file.

IMO

BC

eronald

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #164 on: January 22, 2014, 05:09:28 pm »

J,

 Climb down from your pulpit already, and show us guys in the choir the S2 images!

Edmund

I agree with you on most points.   For video I can use medium format for most of the still work as my p30 will go to 800.  The issue with me and medium format on a motion project isn't the file quality, it's the time involved we have available to shoot the stills.  That's why I bought an S2.

I will be quite happy when I rid myself of most 35mm dslrs as I find them boring and old tech and not old tech in a good way.

But your right, all this white paper crap means nothing, because nobody has used the camera yet and conjecture and real world are miles apart.

The question I would ask (though I know the answer) is the people that will complain about the new medium format cameras will be from people that wouldn't buy them anyway, so who cares?   I doubt seriously if the medium format companies do.   Don't waste time with people that won't hire you, only go to the ones that will.  

I would think that good photographers would jump up and down happy for more options, not bitch like little girls that caught their boyfriend kissing their best friend.

I think that people that bitch about medium format are basically just pissed that the prices of medium format costs what it does.  There the same as RED haters in the cinema world.  Either they want cameras to be a million dollars that everybody has to rent,  or cost less than a cheap dinner.

To me that's the worse part, because I know the people that make, sell and service these larger than 35mm still cameras and they offer professional, honest service, not Amazon click, guess and save 4 dollars sales models.

Because they offer this service they need to be compensated, and being compensated is not a dirty word.  

In your comment about the RED's mine paid for themselves 10 times over in the first year.   Some was the image quality, some the usability and some was the seriousness of the service our studios provide.

I decided if I was going to go into motion I wasn't going to f__k around and I didn't buy 1 I bought 3.   The two R1's dropped in price like a rock a year after i owned them and that didn't matter a whit to me, because they still work and (gasp) they present a professional production and shoot a beautiful file.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 05:18:14 pm by eronald »
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BJL

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Re: DSLR adopted CMOS for IQ advantages like low-light, not for cost savings
« Reply #165 on: January 22, 2014, 05:18:05 pm »

why transparent ? substrate is in its usual place (the side which is not meant to be illuminated by light)
With back-illuminaton the chip is in the opposite orientation, so the substrate would be between the incoming light and the photo-sites.

With normal ("frontside illuminated") sensors, the light comes in on the side of the sensor where the circuitry is deposited, referred to as the front, and behind this there is a relatively thick, opaque substrate of silicon. As a result, the circuitry of the sensor can block some of the incoming light, and micro-lenses are used so partially overcome that problem.

With backside illuminated sensors, the light instead come in from the "back", so that the circuitry on the front of the chip is now on the side away from the incoming light, and so does not block any of the light. To do this, the "back" has to be made transparent, and so is thinned after the basic chip has been made.

To quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back-illuminated_sensor
"A back-illuminated sensor ... orients the wiring behind the photocathode layer by flipping the silicon wafer during manufacturing and then thinning its reverse side so that light can strike the photocathode layer without passing through the wiring layer. ... Thinning also makes the silicon wafer more fragile."

There are some illustrations at http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/technology/technology/theme/exmor_r_01.html
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bcooter

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #166 on: January 22, 2014, 05:25:08 pm »




J,

 Climb down from your pulpit already, and show us guys in the choir the S2 images!

Edmund


Sure.

Send a layout, I'll respond with an estimate.

How's that?

BC

Yea, Like T, I'm not in a very good mood either.  Just spent 23.5 hours in a hospital room with a good friend that passed.  He virtually worked himself to death providing for his family and his business.

Never heard him once complain so I guess I should be nicer.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 05:29:53 pm by bcooter »
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eronald

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #167 on: January 22, 2014, 05:33:16 pm »

Sure.

Send a layout, I'll respond with an estimate.

How's that?

BC

Yea, Like T, I'm not in a very good mood either.  Just spent 23.5 hours in a hospital room with a good friend that passed.  He virtually worked himself to death providing for his family and his business.

Never heard him once complain so I guess I should be nicer.


My apologies. I was trying to be funny, but I guess I put my foot in my mouth. I can certainly empathize with T, as I have had two wisdom teeth extraction procedures and one mouth surgery in a year; this may explain why I have learnt about baby food.

Edmund
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 07:35:33 pm by eronald »
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EricWHiss

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #168 on: January 22, 2014, 05:44:29 pm »

T-MARK hope you recover quickly and BC sorry about your friend


and I hope we all get to see some 50mp CMOS sample images from either Hasselblad or Phase soon!
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eronald

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #169 on: January 22, 2014, 06:31:29 pm »

There are some rumors that while the CMOS Hassy sensor is from Sony, the Phase one might be from ... Canon.

Edmund
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #170 on: January 22, 2014, 06:38:57 pm »

Hi.

Would the new CMOS sensors be affordable and could I afford them I would probably go for the version with the best live view. If they use current CMOS-technology I would expect about 2EV advantage in DR.

Small sensors are not a very good idea, at least if someone is shooting with MF 645SLR with limited lens choice. I would prefer smaller pixels, which I feel are beneficial in reducing aliasing/moiré and helpful in sharpening. I feel it is better that the sensor outresolves the lens the other way around.

Best regards
Erik






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Doug Peterson

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #171 on: January 22, 2014, 06:45:43 pm »

Yea, Like T, I'm not in a very good mood either.  Just spent 23.5 hours in a hospital room with a good friend that passed.  He virtually worked himself to death providing for his family and his business.

BC: sorry to hear of your loss. I'm facing some health issues with my mom at the moment and every moment you are in or dealing with hospital/nursing/physical-rehab is draining, sobering, and just plain awful. Condolences to the family.

Manoli

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #172 on: January 22, 2014, 07:20:25 pm »

... a good friend that passed.  He virtually worked himself to death providing for his family and his business.

Moments such as these remind one just how important the new CMOS sensor is.
Sincerest sympathies both to you and his family.
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bcooter

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #173 on: January 22, 2014, 07:21:52 pm »

Thanks everyone, sorry for being so abrupt.

He was a great guy.  A attorney working for some good people on a huge case and just wouldn't let go, even to his own detriment.   I liked him and he was always a gentleman to me and everyone he met.

Doug, sorry man, my Mom is going through the same stuff and it's hard.

I wish the best for you and your family.

BC
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 07:25:01 pm by bcooter »
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ndevlin

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #174 on: January 22, 2014, 07:57:26 pm »

Just spent 23.5 hours in a hospital room with a good friend that passed.  He virtually worked himself to death providing for his family and his business.

Those are the hours that keep us honest about what matters in life.  Sorry it's your turn to walk that road.

- N.
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Vladimirovich

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Re: DSLR adopted CMOS for IQ advantages like low-light, not for cost savings
« Reply #175 on: January 22, 2014, 08:24:10 pm »

With back-illuminaton the chip is in the opposite orientation, so the substrate would be between the incoming light and the photo-sites.

With normal ("frontside illuminated") sensors, the light comes in on the side of the sensor where the circuitry is deposited, referred to as the front, and behind this there is a relatively thick, opaque substrate of silicon. As a result, the circuitry of the sensor can block some of the incoming light, and micro-lenses are used so partially overcome that problem.

With backside illuminated sensors, the light instead come in from the "back", so that the circuitry on the front of the chip is now on the side away from the incoming light, and so does not block any of the light. To do this, the "back" has to be made transparent, and so is thinned after the basic chip has been made.

To quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back-illuminated_sensor
"A back-illuminated sensor ... orients the wiring behind the photocathode layer by flipping the silicon wafer during manufacturing and then thinning its reverse side so that light can strike the photocathode layer without passing through the wiring layer. ... Thinning also makes the silicon wafer more fragile."

There are some illustrations at http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/technology/technology/theme/exmor_r_01.html

look, probably I simply used the wrong word in English...  with FSI or BSI sensor - one side is towards the lens mount (that side bears CFA/microlenses and that side is later covered with all the AA/IR/UV cut stuff), by substrate I (wrongly) meant the ceramic/plastic piece that covers the other side of the sensor (sensor is "mounted" on it / inside it when sensor assembly is made), that serves to guard the sensor itself, bears external wiring, sensor is germetically insulated inside it with glass glued to it, covering the sensor) ... not the silicone that originally cut from wafer and on which the sensor itself is formed... what is the proper word for that ? something like ceramic packaging probably ? that one provides mechanical safety for sensor itself inside it.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: DSLR adopted CMOS for IQ advantages like low-light, not for cost savings
« Reply #176 on: January 23, 2014, 01:21:24 am »

Hi,

I don't think BSI gives a dramatic improvement on large pixels with modern CMOS. Sony has two versions of the RX-100, the RX-100 with FSI and the RX-100II has BSI. As far as I can recall the RX-100II has somewhat higher ISO rating but DXO-results are otherwise very close.

Best regards
Erik

look, probably I simply used the wrong word in English...  with FSI or BSI sensor - one side is towards the lens mount (that side bears CFA/microlenses and that side is later covered with all the AA/IR/UV cut stuff), by substrate I (wrongly) meant the ceramic/plastic piece that covers the other side of the sensor (sensor is "mounted" on it / inside it when sensor assembly is made), that serves to guard the sensor itself, bears external wiring, sensor is germetically insulated inside it with glass glued to it, covering the sensor) ... not the silicone that originally cut from wafer and on which the sensor itself is formed... what is the proper word for that ? something like ceramic packaging probably ? that one provides mechanical safety for sensor itself inside it.
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Jason Denning

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #177 on: January 23, 2014, 01:32:13 am »

2 24mp sensors side by side make 48x36, add a little marketing magic and you have 50mp. I can't see them releasing a 44x33 after it took years to use the full frame size.
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Jason Denning

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #178 on: January 23, 2014, 01:33:58 am »

High ISO isn't important for tech cams so they can stick with CCD
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gerald.d

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Re: MF CMOS -- now it gets interesting
« Reply #179 on: January 23, 2014, 01:37:25 am »

IQ250 sample images...

https://www.google.com/search?q=IQ250+site%3Aphaseone.com

Better link -

http://gallery.phaseone.com/#/Action-sports/Tim-Kemple/Tim-Kemple_1_gallery.jpg

note that the camera is listed as the 645DF+, so perhaps nothing new on that front coming just yet.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 01:44:33 am by gerald.d »
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