Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: Sony A7r Report  (Read 31912 times)

J. Paul

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 63
Sony A7r Report
« on: December 12, 2013, 06:54:11 am »

Michael,
Thanks for your article about the Sony A7r.  I am following this very closely as I just received (yesterday) my Sony A7r, which is still in the box.  I plan on using this camera with the Metabones adapter and utilize my Canon glass, especially the 17 & 24mm TS lenses. 

I am starting to read with increasing alarm about the possibility of Shutter Vibration and blurred images with this camera.  I don't want to be an alarmist, but I certainly want to know if this is a real issue with this camera before I open the box!  Have you seen any examples of this with your shooting?  I would love to hear from you (a voice I trust) on this matter.  I am trying to decide if this camera is a keeper or if I will be sending it back for a refund.
Regards,
J. Paul
Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11302
    • Echophoto
Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2013, 07:18:38 am »

Hi,

Probably no more problem than on other FP cameras. A7 has electronic first curtain that eliminates reduces that problem.

Diglloyd has reported on this. He observed the problem on the Leica M (240) first.

Best regards
Erik


Michael,
Thanks for your article about the Sony A7r.  I am following this very closely as I just received (yesterday) my Sony A7r, which is still in the box.  I plan on using this camera with the Metabones adapter and utilize my Canon glass, especially the 17 & 24mm TS lenses.  

I am starting to read with increasing alarm about the possibility of Shutter Vibration and blurred images with this camera.  I don't want to be an alarmist, but I certainly want to know if this is a real issue with this camera before I open the box!  Have you seen any examples of this with your shooting?  I would love to hear from you (a voice I trust) on this matter.  I am trying to decide if this camera is a keeper or if I will be sending it back for a refund.
Regards,
J. Paul
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 11:52:40 am by ErikKaffehr »
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

michael

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5084
Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2013, 09:20:22 am »

Shutter vibration. Really?

We'll I suppose if one is shooting at marginal shutter speed, but I've regularly shot with a 35mm lens down to 1/30 sec, and see no problems whatsoever.

Let's keep in mind folks that this is a system with no IS, lens or body. That means that the old rules apply. A minimum of 1/focal length. Indeed being digital, and less forgiving than film I'd even go at double that.

If this is an academic problem for some people, so be it. Not my concern. If people are shooting hand held at shutter speeds slower than 1/focal length then all I can recommend is get a faster lens or use a higher ISO. Of course an electronic front shutter will always trump a mechanical one when it comes to vibration. But having "some" and being a problem are two different thinks.

Michael


Ps: The way I work with the set up is in manual mode with Auto ISO. I set the minimum aperture that I'm comfortable with for the lens and situation, and similarly the aperture, then let auto-ISO do its thing, with the Exposure Compensation dial fine tuning things.

Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11302
    • Echophoto
Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2013, 10:21:03 am »

Hi,

I would suggest that you see the shutter vibration issues with telephoto lenses with camera on tripod, especially if the mount on the adapter is used. Mounting he camera itself on the tripod may have lesser problems.

This info is coming from Diglloyd site. The effect is barely visible.

He reported a similar issue on Leica M. It could be mitigated by using classical focusing instead of live view but not eliminated fully.

Best regards
Erik

Shutter vibration. Really?

We'll I suppose if one is shooting at marginal shutter speed, but I've regularly shot with a 35mm lens down to 1/30 sec, and see no problems whatsoever.

Let's keep in mind folks that this is a system with no IS, lens or body. That means that the old rules apply. A minimum of 1/focal length. Indeed being digital, and less forgiving than film I'd even go at double that.

If this is an academic problem for some people, so be it. Not my concern. If people are shooting hand held at shutter speeds slower than 1/focal length then all I can recommend is get a faster lens or use a higher ISO. Of course an electronic front shutter will always trump a mechanical one when it comes to vibration. But having "some" and being a problem are two different thinks.

Michael


Ps: The way I work with the set up is in manual mode with Auto ISO. I set the minimum aperture that I'm comfortable with for the lens and situation, and similarly the aperture, then let auto-ISO do its thing, with the Exposure Compensation dial fine tuning things.


Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

Vladimirovich

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1311
Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2013, 10:43:58 am »

Probably no more problem than on other FP cameras. A7 has electronic first curtain that eliminates that problem.

but A7r does not + there is a school of thought that system weight (camera + lenses, handheld) vs the speed of shutter impact matters (faster actual xsync = stronger shutter impact)
Logged

Jim Kasson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2370
    • The Last Word
Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2013, 11:36:16 am »

I would suggest that you see the shutter vibration issues with telephoto lenses with camera on tripod, especially if the mount on the adapter is used. Mounting he camera itself on the tripod may have lesser problems.

Erik, my testing confirms everything you say.

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=3757

To put the a7R shutter vibration in perspective, the effect is about one-quarter that of mirror slap on the D800E. The difference is that you can flip the D800E mirror as long before tripping the shutter as you desire, and there is no control to simply close the shutter on the a7R. The M240 workaround is simply to turn off live view and revert to classic metering, so that the shutter is closed when you press the release.

OBTW, there are still two ways that the shutter can influence the sharpness of an image with vibration even in the D800 with the mirror up and the M240 with no LV and classic metering. The opening of the first curtain can move the camera. Most people think about that. What they don't think about is that the closing of the second curtain can also induce vibration that affects the image in the time it takes for the second curtain to traverse the sensor.

I see people blaming the a7R's 1/8000 max shutter speed for some of this vibration. The max shutter speed, to a first order, is determined by how thin a slit you allow, not the speed of the curtain travel. I had a 4x5 Speed Graphic once that went to 1/1000, and the curtains took forever to make it all the way across that big piece of film. The speed of curtain travel mostly determines the maximum X-synch speed, which, at 1/160 on the a7R isn't particularly impressive.

Jim
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 05:36:55 pm by Jim Kasson »
Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11302
    • Echophoto
Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2013, 11:50:36 am »

Hi,

I agree that electronic first curtain doesn't solve all problems, as acceleration of second curtain creates a reaction force moving the camera in the opposite direction. Or it is simply conservation of momentum.  I was considering this before I was writing it, but I was bending for the wrong authority.

Best regards
Erik

Erik, my testing confirms everything you say.

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=3757

To put the a7R shutter vibration in perspective, the effect is about one-quarter that of mirror slap on the D800E. The difference is that you can flip the D800E mirror as long before tripping the shutter as you desire, and there is no control to simply close the shutter on the a7R. The M240 workaround is simply to turn off live vie and revert to classic metering, so that the shutter is closed when you press the release.

OBTW, there are still two ways that the shutter can influence the sharpness of an image with vibration even in the D800 with the mirror up and the M240 with no LV and classic metering. The opening of the first curtain can move the camera. Most people think about that. What they don't think about is that the closing of the second curtain can also induce vibration that affects the image in the time it takes for the second curtain to traverse the sensor.

I see people blaming the a7R's 1/8000 max shutter speed for some of this vibration. The max shutter speed, to a first order, is determined by how thin a slit you allow, not the speed of the curtain travel. I had a 4x5 Speed Graphic once that went to 1/1000, and the curtains took forever to make it all the way across that big piece of film. The speed of curtain travel mostly determines the maximum X-synch speed, which, at 1/160 on the a7R isn't particularly impressive.

Jim
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

douglasf13

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 547
Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2013, 05:57:35 pm »

  I've seen enough tests from various users that show the A7R "shutter shock" as being real, but whether it is an issue for the shooter depends on technique and application.  Either way, it's the double "clack clack" and extra shutter lag of the electronic front curtain shutter-less camera that would bother me.  The EFCS was a welcome addition to the NEX line and is reason enough to go A7, IMO.

 Just like with NEX cameras, how well M lenses work on the A7/R really depends on one's expectations.  Most M lenses (Leica, Zeiss and Voigtlander) at 35mm or wider do show smearing and/or color shift to some degree, and even the 50 Lux shows smearing in the first few apertures on the A7R compared to the m240, but that doesn't make it unusable.  However, if you're expecting M240 performance across the frame, 50mm seems to be the middle ground for M lenses, not 35mm.
Logged

Telecaster

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3686
Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2013, 10:03:24 pm »

I'm of two minds about the "shutter shock" issue. It's been reported with various Micro Four-Thirds cameras too, but I've personally never seen it...and I own three of 'em. So I'm inclined to treat it as irrelevant to real-world photography. OTOH, I don't dismiss the issue as non-existant. It seems to me the mechanical shutter is a gizmo that ultimately will be eliminated in favor of an improved electronic implementation. Fewer moving parts, less manufacturing expense, less vibration, improved reliability. These are good things. It's kinda ironic actually that the A7r, which is a groundbreaking camera in some respects, has such a clunky shutter mechanism. Maybe this will serve to focus attention on the benefits of getting rid of FP shutters altogether.

-Dave-
Logged

J. Paul

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 63
Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2013, 06:23:08 am »

Thanks to all that responded to my concerns about possible shutter vibration with the Sony A7r.  I am going to give it a go and see how it works out.  My only other real potential hurdle with this camera is to see if it plays well with my 17 & 24 Tilt Shift lenses.
J. Paul
Logged

vjbelle

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 594
Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2013, 07:47:14 am »

Shutter vibration. Really?

We'll I suppose if one is shooting at marginal shutter speed, but I've regularly shot with a 35mm lens down to 1/30 sec, and see no problems whatsoever.

Let's keep in mind folks that this is a system with no IS, lens or body. That means that the old rules apply. A minimum of 1/focal length. Indeed being digital, and less forgiving than film I'd even go at double that.

If this is an academic problem for some people, so be it. Not my concern. If people are shooting hand held at shutter speeds slower than 1/focal length then all I can recommend is get a faster lens or use a higher ISO. Of course an electronic front shutter will always trump a mechanical one when it comes to vibration. But having "some" and being a problem are two different thinks.

Michael

Ps: The way I work with the set up is in manual mode with Auto ISO. I set the minimum aperture that I'm comfortable with for the lens and situation, and similarly the aperture, then let auto-ISO do its thing, with the Exposure Compensation dial fine tuning things.

Yes..... shutter vibration really!

If you were to see any shutter shake with a 35mm lens I would think you would be extremely alarmed.  Why don't you see what happens with your 90 or 135?  I have the Leica 90 and have experienced enough shutter shake to know its real.  None of this is hand held but rather on a tripod with 2 second delay.  The danger areas are real for this camera (1/50, 1/60, 1,80, 1/100) and either should be avoided or the use of an extremely large/heavy tripod and head recommended. 


Victor
Logged

Hans Kruse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2102
    • Hans Kruse Photography
Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2013, 09:26:41 am »

Although I can understand your reaction, you really should read the review from Lloyd Chambers and I'm sure if you do that you would be interested in doing your own (double)checking.

He reports vibrations at fast shutter speeds too on longer lenses. I do not want to copy and paste from his site, but given Lloyd is a thorough tester and a committed pixel peeper in his tests, I trust what he reports is real. I was considering adding the Sony A7R with an adapter to use with my best Canon lenses, but his review has certainly turned me cold on that.

It is a bit odd that the A7R does not have the electronic first curtain as in the A7. The D800(E) also does not have electronic first curtain and the sensor is very closely the same, so the theory is that the sensor design does not allow the electronic first curtain to be used with that sensor.

Does it matter? Well yes, if there should be any value in a 36MP sensor then such issues will or can reduce the real resolution such that the theoretical higher resolution does not result in real resolution. Even worse if there is not a simple way to be sure there is no vibration like e.g. use a tripod or over a certain shutter speed and the problem would not be there. This is NOT the case according to the testing by Lloyd!

michael

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5084
Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2013, 09:33:24 am »

I suppose that my response to this is simply..."So what else is new?"

All camera are subject to mirror shock (assuming they have a mirror), shutter shock, and release shock. Tripods that resonate, ball heads that are not toght enough, mounting plates with slop, etc. We've been living with and debating the issues for decades.

The A7r has shutter shock at some shutter speeds with some lenses in some situations. This can be said for virtually every camera ever made.

Ever shooting with a long lens on a Mamiya 645? Ever shoot with ANY lens on a Pentax 67. These are simply things we learn to live with and accomodate.

To read that people are considering not getting an A7r because of shutter shock just blows my mind.

In my annoyance at this new form of pixel peeping all I can say is..."On your way to getting a life, try and also get out and do some photography. Stop worrying about minutia". Cheech.

Michael
Logged

michael

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5084
Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2013, 09:38:09 am »

Hans,

I have a lot of respects for Lloyd and enjoy his site. But as with so many of his reports of late "Me thinks he doth protest to much".

Some of the issues that he points out at indeed there, but their consequences for photographers often lie outside the 99th percentile. For the uninformed that because a red light, rather than a "Oh, so this camera / lens isn't perfect after all".

Michael
Logged

Hans Kruse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2102
    • Hans Kruse Photography
Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2013, 10:26:03 am »

Hans,

I have a lot of respects for Lloyd and enjoy his site. But as with so many of his reports of late "Me thinks he doth protest to much".

Some of the issues that he points out at indeed there, but their consequences for photographers often lie outside the 99th percentile. For the uninformed that because a red light, rather than a "Oh, so this camera / lens isn't perfect after all".

Michael


Michael,

Although I can agree on this to some degree on this as well as your previous post on the general problem, I'd urge you to have a look here http://diglloyd.com/prem/prot/ALLVIEW/SonyFullFrame/A7R-shutterVibration-280mm.html and http://diglloyd.com/prem/prot/ALLVIEW/SonyFullFrame/about-shutter-vibration.html

I have seen many Canon shooters frustrated about not having 36MP on their sensor and the dynamic range of the Exmor sensors in the Sony and the Nikon D800. So would it make sense for those to use a Sony A7R with an adapter so they could use their Canon glass without a wholesale conversion to e.g. Nikon? Given the findings by Lloyd the resolution advantage would evaporate in many cases compared to the Canon 5D III. The same is mostly true for the D800E as well, but that's another story. Given what I haven seen so far in reviews it is not obvious to me that adding a A7R to the arsenal will achieve what people are looking for. Another story is that the money probably in almost any aspect would be better spent on a workshop, books, tutorials or a photographic trip to advance their photography ...

And all equipment has it's quirks for sure and it's important to know how to work around them to achieve the photographic goals related to the shooting style of the photographer. Reviews are there to help the photographer (beginner or advanced expert) to avoid buying the wrong tool for the task if possible. For the vast difference between the beginner and the advanced expert level photographer different types of reviews are needed. Lloyd Chambers hardly helps the beginner to state the obvious, but he does help the advanced enthusiast to judge if his concerns and findings are valid for him. Therefore I value his nerdy dives into extreme details.

vjbelle

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 594
Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2013, 10:43:00 am »

I suppose that my response to this is simply..."So what else is new?"

All camera are subject to mirror shock (assuming they have a mirror), shutter shock, and release shock. Tripods that resonate, ball heads that are not toght enough, mounting plates with slop, etc. We've been living with and debating the issues for decades.

The A7r has shutter shock at some shutter speeds with some lenses in some situations. This can be said for virtually every camera ever made.

Ever shooting with a long lens on a Mamiya 645? Ever shoot with ANY lens on a Pentax 67. These are simply things we learn to live with and accomodate.

To read that people are considering not getting an A7r because of shutter shock just blows my mind.

In my annoyance at this new form of pixel peeping all I can say is..."On your way to getting a life, try and also get out and do some photography. Stop worrying about minutia". Cheech.

Michael

It would be fine with me if this could be mitigated some way but nothing I own is heavy enough to stop that shutter vibration.  My biggest tripod (Gitzo series 3) and Arca Z1 are not enough.  All shutter speeds below 1/250 and above 1s are affected when I shoot with my Leica 90mm.  Contrast this to shooting my 800e with the Zeiss 100mm Macro on a Gitzo series 1 traveler and an Acra head ( total 3.1 lbs. ) which I can shoot at any speed without any noticeable shutter vibration at 100% pixels.  I guess we're just in different worlds but I think anyone considering this camera should take all of this into consideration.

Victor
Logged

Guy Mancuso

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1133
    • http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/index.php
Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2013, 10:54:54 am »

Just wanted to weigh in on this.

Well its not uncommon to see vibration errors with Focal plane shutters. I read the reviews and this really is a fairly common issue. Case in point, I did this test with a Phase One DF body and a Phase One 150 D and Phase One 300mm 4.5. Obviously locked down like a elephant sitting on it and mirror up and 3 second delays with several subjects and the bottom line anything faster than 1/30 or slower than than 1/8 is not any visible vibration issues but at 1/20 and 1/15th being the worst it is clear as day there is a double image vibration issue. I have yet to do this test on a Nikon and not knowing the root cause of it but I do have a good guess as there is either a FP lag in the timing or some type of bounce in the shutter but it is there for sure and anyone trying this will most likely see it as well. I posted this test awhile back on GetDPI but heck if I can find it now. Personally I think its a common issue with focal plane shutters. I also agree there is a ton of whining on it and thats fine but Im also surprised that some folks don't know of this issue to start with and FP shutters.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 10:56:45 am by Guy Mancuso »
Logged
[url=http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showt

StuartOnline

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 404
    • Travels Photographer Stuart Schaefer
Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2013, 11:49:13 am »

I just revieved the Sony A7R on Tuseday. Not having many lenses available I had already purchased the Metabones Canon to Emount Mark lll that I was using on the Sony Nex-7. Have a number of Canon L glass already so it was worth the purchase. It is a little slow with auto focusing with the A7R, however since I am using this camera mainly for landscape shooting it is not a big deal to me. Besides I started using the manual focus peaking feature and found it to work very well. Mostly been using the Canon 17-40mm f/4L since recieving the A7R and have been happy with this setup. I am amazed at the detail you get with this 36MP camera. Still need to try my other Canon glass with the A7R. Do want to get the new Sony FE 24-70mm but it will not be available untill first of next year. To me that is the biggest issues with the realease of the A7/A7R is the lack of lenses. However with the Metabones I am able to use some good lenses.

Stu
Logged

thompsonkirk

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 208
    • http://www.red-green-blue.com
Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2013, 12:04:09 am »

I'm surprised that shutter vibration has become the principal issue.  My main concern is M lens compatibility from the standpoint of color vignetting and corner smearing.  When my A7r body arrives I'll try the new Adobe tool, but I don't expect it to fix smearing.

From what I can gather so far, the WATE is an exception to generally poor performance in corners with lenses of 28mm and shorter.  And I wouldn't want to bulk up with a WATE anyway.  Unfortunately, some of the nicest 35mm Ms are problematic: Cron V4 and to a lesser degree FLE.  With a couple of exceptions, the A7r seems to be a body suited mainly to Ms of focal lengths above 35mm. 

Ironically, the samples I've seen suggest the 35mm that works best from the standpoint of color vignetting and smearing would be  the CV f1.2.  This seems ironic: I'd want a sensor capable of higher ISOs in large part because I'd hate to schlep a lens that size.  I'm also puzzled  by all the test shots that are appearing from A7rs with Noctiluxes.  With higher ISOs, their largest apertures and tiny slice of DOF would be less advantageous from any standpoint but bokeh.
 
My needs are limited I just want a high-ISO sensor to stand in for my M9 in problematic available light.  I'm planning to use the body initially with only 40 Summicron and 50 Sonnar-C.  Both have looked good corner-wise in the test shots that have appeared (esp. on FredMiranda).  I'll be looking for an A7r-compatible 35 that's smaller than my FLE, because I won't have much need of f1.4 at higher ISOs.  When Sony/Zeiss come up with a 28 that matches the A7r's microprocessors, I'll probably try that one.

Like Michael, I skipped the M240.  I didn't like the color very much, and now many many months later when there's a firmware fix and the waiting lists are shorter, it seems to border on obsolescence.  I'm thinking of the A7r as a temporary vehicle for only a few M lenses, until there's a high-ISO M360 or whatever comes next.

Kirk
Logged

Hans Kruse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2102
    • Hans Kruse Photography
Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2013, 10:29:06 am »

I'm a bit surprised about the reactions in this thread about shutter vibrations. For those who have shot medium format will know that large FP shutters vibrate (a lot). But also smaller FP shutters found in full frame 35mm cameras generate vibrations. What not all seem to know or appreciate is how much vibrations there is and what the differences are between cameras. Just to mention a few:

1) Canon 1Ds mkIII has live view and shooting in LV the behavior is as follows: To start exposure the shutter closes and immediately opens again to start the exposure and at the end closes the shutter and opens it again to show live view.  At longer focal lengths this will create visible blur. For this camera it is better to use mirror lockup.

2) Canon 5D mkIII has live view with electronic first curtain which means that there are no physical movement of the shutter to start the exposure and only at the end of the exposure the shutter will close and open again to show live view.

3) Nikon D800 has live view but no electronic first curtain. Shooting in live view the normal behavior is exactly as the 1Ds mkIII, however if you turn the dial to MUP then the behavior changes such that the first shutter button press will close the shutter and nothing else. The next shutter button press will start the exposure and end of the exposure as normal. Guess why Nikon has added this second option....

DSLR's in live view basically works like mirrorless cameras.

The Sony A7R behaves as the normal mode of the D800 but lacks the second MUP mode (yes, of course, the A7R does not have a mirror but it could have a mode where the shutter closes before it opens again for exposure with a delay). The double movement needed to start the exposure is a serious shock that moves through the camera and from the findings of Lloyd Chambers the camera body is not well isolated against this shock waves that travels through the metal camera body.

The Sony A7 does have electronic first curtain and does not have the shutter vibration issues and works like the Canon 5D mkIII.

One would think it would be a simple firmware fix to make the A7R work like the D800 MUP mode.

Anyone can check their camera behavior in a simple way: Take off the lens and set the camera in manual mode and set the shutter speed to e.g. 5 seconds and push the shutter in live view mode and see what the shutter actually does.

Is pixel peeping bad? Well no and it is really needed to review a camera for design faults and for advice on how the camera will work optimally. Why do people buy a 36MP camera? I assume to get the maximum resolution for large prints, otherwise it would be much better to buy a lower resolution camera.
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up