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Author Topic: Sony A7r Report  (Read 31913 times)

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2013, 10:33:58 am »

A reasonable view… ;-)

I tend to think of my own pixel peeping as interesting and informative and that of others as an obsessive compulsive disorder  ;)

Another reasonable view :-)

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Is pixel peeping bad? Well no and it is really needed to review a camera for design faults and for advice on how the camera will work optimally. Why do people buy a 36MP camera? I assume to get the maximum resolution for large prints, otherwise it would be much better to buy a lower resolution camera.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 08:38:02 am by ErikKaffehr »
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Erik Kaffehr
 

Telecaster

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Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2013, 02:12:32 pm »

Is pixel peeping bad? Well no and it is really needed to review a camera for design faults and for advice on how the camera will work optimally. Why do people buy a 36MP camera? I assume to get the maximum resolution for large prints, otherwise it would be much better to buy a lower resolution camera.

IMO your "why" question might be better phrased as "Why do photographers who print buy...?" People, in my experience, are into the megapixel sweepstakes for various reasons. Technology-oriented curiosity. Cool, high-performance toys to play with. The endorphin rush gained from having the "best." Look At My Big One posturing. All the usual human stuff.   :)

-Dave-
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Manoli

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Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2013, 02:55:25 pm »

Is pixel peeping bad? Well no and it is really needed to review a camera for design faults and for advice on how the camera will work optimally. Why do people buy a 36MP camera? I assume to get the maximum resolution for large prints, otherwise it would be much better to buy a lower resolution camera.

Another reason is to improve the mpx of mediocre lenses. As DxO have shown through their metrics, a pedestrian to poor performer on a 12MP body will be much improved by a 36MP body and then resampling (downsize) to 12 / 16MP afterwards.
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HSway

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Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2013, 07:46:13 am »

I'm a bit surprised about the reactions in this thread about shutter vibrations. For those who have shot medium format will know that large FP shutters vibrate (a lot). But also smaller FP shutters found in full frame 35mm cameras generate vibrations. What not all seem to know or appreciate is how much vibrations there is and what the differences are between cameras. Just to mention a few:

1) Canon 1Ds mkIII has live view and shooting in LV the behavior is as follows: To start exposure the shutter closes and immediately opens again to start the exposure and at the end closes the shutter and opens it again to show live view.  At longer focal lengths this will create visible blur. For this camera it is better to use mirror lockup.

2) Canon 5D mkIII has live view with electronic first curtain which means that there are no physical movement of the shutter to start the exposure and only at the end of the exposure the shutter will close and open again to show live view.

3) Nikon D800 has live view but no electronic first curtain. Shooting in live view the normal behavior is exactly as the 1Ds mkIII, however if you turn the dial to MUP then the behavior changes such that the first shutter button press will close the shutter and nothing else. The next shutter button press will start the exposure and end of the exposure as normal. Guess why Nikon has added this second option....

DSLR's in live view basically works like mirrorless cameras.

The Sony A7R behaves as the normal mode of the D800 but lacks the second MUP mode (yes, of course, the A7R does not have a mirror but it could have a mode where the shutter closes before it opens again for exposure with a delay). The double movement needed to start the exposure is a serious shock that moves through the camera and from the findings of Lloyd Chambers the camera body is not well isolated against this shock waves that travels through the metal camera body.

The Sony A7 does have electronic first curtain and does not have the shutter vibration issues and works like the Canon 5D mkIII.

One would think it would be a simple firmware fix to make the A7R work like the D800 MUP mode.

Anyone can check their camera behavior in a simple way: Take off the lens and set the camera in manual mode and set the shutter speed to e.g. 5 seconds and push the shutter in live view mode and see what the shutter actually does.

Is pixel peeping bad? Well no and it is really needed to review a camera for design faults and for advice on how the camera will work optimally. Why do people buy a 36MP camera? I assume to get the maximum resolution for large prints, otherwise it would be much better to buy a lower resolution camera.

Good summary. First information about f.el. curtain of A7 vs A7R was conflicting (early Australian review stated it wrong for example). 2 months ago I noted exactly in this sense:

"As to these little cameras, it’s more their shutter rather than lenses (f4 UWA and large aperture prime is coming in 2014 already) I see a trouble with. Certainly on a tripod and certainly at low(er) shutter speeds. Big loud shutter in a tiny body performing its mirrorless cycle without el.front curtain option is an omission that stops me from looking at these in principle. But Sony is about a bigger picture."

I’d do careful testing with this camera (Michael may mention at some point it would be interesting to hear from him about this). Tripod, head, and other factors inside of the camera, settings of course, lens body - their construction/form, possibly off-centre orientation of the camera will determine the effect on the particular combination.
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2013, 01:03:44 pm »

More tests here http://diglloyd.com/blog/2013/20131215_3-SonyA7R-shutter-vibration-180mm-vertical.html

Lloyd Chambers advice: anyone shooting long telephoto lenses should opt for the 24-megapixel Sony A7, which offers an electronic first curtain shutter. Its performance on this scene was impeccable. And even under the best of conditions 36 megapixels is only modestly more resolution than 24 megapixels anyway. Reliable results at 24 megapixels trump the huge blur seen here with the A7R.

It will be interesting to see if Sony will react to these findings.

vjbelle

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Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2013, 01:37:16 pm »

The Sony A7R behaves as the normal mode of the D800 but lacks the second MUP mode (yes, of course, the A7R does not have a mirror but it could have a mode where the shutter closes before it opens again for exposure with a delay). The double movement needed to start the exposure is a serious shock that moves through the camera and from the findings of Lloyd Chambers the camera body is not well isolated against this shock waves that travels through the metal camera body.


Hans,

Maybe you could elaborate a little more..... I don't get what you are saying here.  As I understand it there is a single curtain vibration (first curtain exposing the sensor) followed by a second curtain closing the light path with that timing determining exposure speed.  What happens after that shouldn't matter since the exposure has been made.  What am I missing?

Victor
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2013, 01:51:39 pm »

Hans,

Maybe you could elaborate a little more..... I don't get what you are saying here.  As I understand it there is a single curtain vibration (first curtain exposing the sensor) followed by a second curtain closing the light path with that timing determining exposure speed.  What happens after that shouldn't matter since the exposure has been made.  What am I missing?

Victor

On the A7R to start the exposure the shutter has to close first and then open. Electronic first curtain does a reset of the sensor to start the exposure and with no shutter movement. In both cases the end of the exposure is done by closing the shutter.

vjbelle

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Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2013, 02:07:03 pm »

Ah..... so the delay could occur after the 'close' to reduce the vibration.  Maybe that would be enough and certainly could be addressed with firmware. 

Thanks for the explanation....

Victor
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2013, 04:04:00 pm »

Ah..... so the delay could occur after the 'close' to reduce the vibration.  Maybe that would be enough and certainly could be addressed with firmware. 

Thanks for the explanation....

Victor

Exactly and it could even be similar to the D800 where you can manually delay as long as find necessary. On the D800 there is not a lot of difference between the two modes. Shooting continous as in a bracketing sequence on the other hand generates way too much vibrations. The same is also true on the Canon 5D III even with the electronic first curtain. For landscape shooting a slow shutter speeds at the extremes of the day I find that shooting bracketing sequences it is best to slowly click through the sequence one step at the time. I set the D800 in LV mode and MUP to minimize vibrations. Of course the mirror never moves doing this so it is completely comparable to the mirror less operation.

John Camp

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Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2013, 11:51:42 pm »

Why do people buy a 36MP camera? I assume to get the maximum resolution for large prints, otherwise it would be much better to buy a lower resolution camera.

Another reason is that when you're street shooting and either don't have the time to change to a longer lens, or are afraid to because of the subject matter, you can crop a useable shot out of what would otherwise be not useable (for your particular purpose.)
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2013, 08:36:47 am »

Ah..... so the delay could occur after the 'close' to reduce the vibration.  Maybe that would be enough and certainly could be addressed with firmware. 

Thanks for the explanation....

Victor

Btw. Olympus offers a mode of delayed shutter open after the shutter close to start the exposure on the E-M1 and E-M5 cameras. So the speculation is that Sony might also do this as a firmware fix.

fike

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Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2013, 11:01:30 am »

I generally liked Michael's article and enjoy his insight, but one thing that rubbed me wrong was this:

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Now, Sony has kicked everyone's ass (or at least will in a year or so when they have a proper slate of lenses available to go with their new mirrorless full frame system).

I don't really like predicating a declaration of greatness on something that hasn't happened yet--much less a full year or more out.  I am a "show me the money" kind of guy, and I want to see those lenses in operation before I declare the Sony full frame mirrorless cameras a smashing success. 

I think it is interesting to compare the Leica full-frame rangefinder lenses to the M43 lenses because the Leica ones cover full frame AND are more compact than traditional SLR designs.  I think the big question about the Sony full frame mirrorless initiative will be whether they can really realize a Leica-like quality and compactness with a mass market volume and pricing.  The answer to that question is at least a year out, so the answer to whether the A7r is great is also a at least a year out.
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peterottaway

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Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2013, 09:28:04 pm »

I think various people are confusing market success, financial success and the technical / design concepts being offered by the A7 and any complimentary cameras Sony introduces over 2014 and 2015.

It would seem that like Apple that Sony is attempting to developi an ecosystem of photographic products. For interested photographers there will be RX, the replacements for the Nex family and the more traditional Alphas.
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vjbelle

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Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2013, 07:58:15 am »

Btw. Olympus offers a mode of delayed shutter open after the shutter close to start the exposure on the E-M1 and E-M5 cameras. So the speculation is that Sony might also do this as a firmware fix.

I started a case with Sony.  Its been escalated to engineering along with my test files.  Hopefully others have also contacted Sony.  Maybe a fix is in the future. :)

Victor
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Isaac

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Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2013, 11:12:15 am »

That's a good way for you to respond to the problem you experienced!
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2013, 11:13:04 am »

The saga continues with Lloyd Chambers testing the new Sony 55mm lens on the A7R http://diglloyd.com/

Maybe Michael could comment on this since he should also have seen this issue with the Leica lenses.

It will be interesting to see if Sony does address this issue.

Isaac

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Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2013, 11:28:11 am »

I know that Red Barn!

Now I'll have to read diglloyd just to see what else I recognise ;-)
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Manoli

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Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2013, 12:19:48 pm »

The saga continues with Lloyd Chambers testing the new Sony 55mm lens on the A7R ...

Of interest and concern , yes - but not really a saga unless you choose to make it one. Lloyd Chambers is in fact only touching on something that Jim Kasson has been researching and discussing for some time on his blog, The Last Word - see SONY A7R TESTING, PART 28 ( http://blog.kasson.com) and SHARPNESS TESTING, PART 20.  It started with the D800 and is continuing with the Sony.

Chambers doesn't say at what shutter speed he measures this <1 micron blur on his blog.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 12:27:11 pm by Manoli »
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ferrellmc

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Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2013, 09:21:21 pm »

I did a little Seismometer study on the A7R shutter vibration and compared it to D3 and NEX-7.

It's helpful to see the shutter vibration in graphic form, 3 axes are graphed.

Posted here:

http://beforethecoffee.com/sony-a7r-vibration-comparison-with-nikon-d3-and-sony-nex-7/
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Torbjörn Tapani

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Re: Sv: Re: Sony A7r Report
« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2013, 10:08:59 pm »

Btw. Olympus offers a mode of delayed shutter open after the shutter close to start the exposure on the E-M1 and E-M5 cameras. So the speculation is that Sony might also do this as a firmware fix.

I'm sorry for being off topic but since you are discussing delay mode I thought I might mention the D800 has exposure delay as a menu option. So if you set a delayed exposure , start liveview, enable self timer with at least 2 shots (and some delay of choice) the camera will go through a complete bracket with one press of the shutter. Regardless of the number of shots in the bracket.

So no flapping mirror and no touching the camera on the tripod. I use it all the time. And delay I use for single shots as well.
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