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Author Topic: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?  (Read 18295 times)

Christoph C. Feldhaim

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2013, 11:29:56 am »

Ok, I'll create a profile using L* with 5500K and see what it looks like. My CG241 won't do 10 bit though (unlike your CG243) - I don't think my HD6700 graphics card will either :'(

It works as well with 8 bit color - plays totally no role with your problem ...
Experimenting with the settings will in the end give you good results.

Good luck!
~Chris

Czornyj

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2013, 11:30:05 am »

What is the advantage of using it?

Better feeling ;)
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digitaldog

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2013, 11:36:06 am »

What is the advantage of using it?
Depending on who you ask, either nothing or it's the greatest target for calibration of this aim point that exists. Still waiting on some useful peer review evidence that using Lstar for display calibration is useful.

In terms of language, Calibration is placing a device into a known, repeatable and if possible ideal condition. A profile just reflects that condition. Yes, you can profile without calibrating (a modern Epson printer with the Epson driver is such an example). You don't have to calibrate a display but if you want a decent print to screen match, you'll probably have to do so. The profile describes this for the ICC aware app's.
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Lupin

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2013, 11:41:49 am »

.... In terms of language, Calibration is placing a device into a known, repeatable and if possible ideal condition. A profile just reflects that condition. Yes, you can profile without calibrating (a modern Epson printer with the Epson driver is such an example). You don't have to calibrate a display but if you want a decent print to screen match, you'll probably have to do so. The profile describes this for the ICC aware app's.

Yes, I should have said: I'll calibrate to L* with 5500K and see what it looks like.
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Lupin

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2013, 11:44:06 am »

It works as well with 8 bit color - plays totally no role with your problem ...

Damn, I was hoping you'd say it was vital - then I'd have an excuse to go out and buy a CG276!  :D
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Christoph C. Feldhaim

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #45 on: October 25, 2013, 11:52:01 am »

Depending on who you ask, either nothing or it's the greatest target for calibration of this aim point that exists. Still waiting on some useful peer review evidence that using Lstar for display calibration is useful.

In terms of language, Calibration is placing a device into a known, repeatable and if possible ideal condition. A profile just reflects that condition. Yes, you can profile without calibrating (a modern Epson printer with the Epson driver is such an example). You don't have to calibrate a display but if you want a decent print to screen match, you'll probably have to do so. The profile describes this for the ICC aware app's.

For me it was simply following an advice from my local camera dealer and it worked greatly.

I'm totally not interested too much in the academic reasoning behind that, since I know the whole color calibration thing is b0rk3d - because our vision is b0rk3d.
I mean our eyes and film and digital sensors - they translate wavelength distributions into a set of 3 or 4 values (RGB values and neural response respectively).
(4 in the case of our eyes - since we have an additional luminosity channel based on mostly green wavelengths).
So - all this reasoning is sort of messed from ground up - despite all the brilliant science behind it.

After all you simply need to find a way to work which allows you to get the look you want to have for your images.
And that is highly subjective, artistic, esoteric, (fill in whatever you like).

Apart from that, for all people seriously interested I strongly recommend that book of Mark D. Fairchild mentioned above.

Cheers
~Chris

EricV

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #46 on: October 25, 2013, 04:20:18 pm »

A profile is generated using the hardware calibration equipment and the measurements made with it that are used for other parts of the calibration process.  The profile is not independent from the rest of the process, it is merely the end of the entire process.
Floyd, let me ask you this question.  Suppose you place two identical monitors side-by-side.  Then you "calibrate" the first monitor to gamma=1.8 and then "profile" that monitor.  If you do not like the semantic separation of calibrate/profile, consider it just one combined process.  Now you repeat that combined process on the second monitor, but with gamma=2.2.  Finally, you open a reference image with an embedded profile in a color managed application on both monitors.  Will the two images look different or the same?  (The correct answer is that they will look the same.) 
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EricV

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #47 on: October 25, 2013, 04:57:41 pm »

From a color management perspective, a reasonably good monitor doesn't need to be calibrated beyond setting the white point (which then becomes simply "white"). It just needs to be profiled.

How does the white point setting interact with the profile and the embedded color space of an image?  After I set or calibrate the monitor to a given color temperature and luminosity, is that the "white point" from now on?  Does profiling change the display of white (255,255,255) based on the color space embedded in the image?  How about neutral gray (128,128,128)?  I realize the color space gamma will change the displayed brightness, but will the color temperature also have an effect, or is the original calibration color temperature preserved?
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Floyd Davidson

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #48 on: October 25, 2013, 07:18:42 pm »

Floyd, let me ask you this question.  Suppose you place two identical monitors side-by-side.  Then you "calibrate" the first monitor to gamma=1.8 and then "profile" that monitor.  If you do not like the semantic separation of calibrate/profile, consider it just one combined process.  Now you repeat that combined process on the second monitor, but with gamma=2.2.  Finally, you open a reference image with an embedded profile in a color managed application on both monitors.  Will the two images look different or the same?  (The correct answer is that they will look the same.) 

Yep, but now let me ask you this... what if you are downloading data from the web using a browser that does not have color management?  What if you are embedding images into any of a variety of other systems, such as a webpage, a computer program, a text editor, or an PDF file, and what about using even color managed applications to view images that do not have an embedded profile?

I personally have always objected to the way most computer systems use color management these days because the above situations are not handled well.  I prefer to let the OS deal with color management rather than each individual application.  I don't mean to say that it is a perfect solution, but for my purposes it is vastly better.  In that direction my own workstation has a customized configuration menu for monitor calibration, and color management to overrides it is generally disabled.  With two clicks of a mouse I can have a large menu of different monitor calibration profiles to choose from. 
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Rhossydd

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #49 on: October 26, 2013, 04:09:58 am »

With two clicks of a mouse I can have a large menu of different monitor calibration profiles to choose from. 
You really don't understand colour management at all.
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JRSmit

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #50 on: October 26, 2013, 04:37:17 am »

+1
For non colormanaged situations i do not care at all.
For producing my images i do care and the info provided by bruce, andrew and jeff proved to work for me the past 5 years. And when i publish to the non colormanaged world, i just check on regular non colormanaged  computer displays or hdtv's. In caze of doubt on a  ipad display.
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D Fosse

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #51 on: October 26, 2013, 04:59:27 am »

Quote
You really don't understand colour management at all.

+2. That's the impression you get. But I've been in discussions like this before and they usually go nowhere (except spiralling round in circles).

I don't know why some people insist on overcomplicating this, constructing all these personal theories. Yes, finding a workable set of calibration targets can take some effort, but the underlying processes are simple.

One example:
Quote
what about using even color managed applications to view images that do not have an embedded profile?

What's the big issue here? Two things can happen: 1) the Photoshop model, assigning the working space. Problem solved, the color management chain humming nicely along and ending up in the monitor profile. Firefox mode 1 uses this. 2) the Safari/default Firefox model, leaving it unmanaged, sending the source data straight to the display.

You just need to figure out which one applies. You don't need a conspiracy theory to deal with it.

And so on.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2013, 05:22:56 am by D Fosse »
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Rhossydd

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #52 on: October 26, 2013, 05:38:30 am »

I don't know why some people insist on overcomplicating this, constructing all these personal theories.
Because they don't understand the fundamentals.
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Manoli

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #53 on: October 26, 2013, 05:47:06 am »

Because they don't understand the fundamentals.

… they don't WANT to understand the fundamentals, enjoy argument for argument's sake - commonly referred to as trolling.
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Lupin

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #54 on: October 26, 2013, 08:38:23 am »

.....  Will the two images look different or the same?  (The correct answer is that they will look the same.)  

How can they look the same? One monitor is set to 1.8 and the other to 2.2 - if everything else remains equal they should look something like this: http://imageshack.us/a/img407/6302/gammadifference.jpg.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2013, 08:46:41 am by Lupin »
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Floyd Davidson

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #55 on: October 26, 2013, 09:30:08 am »

How can they look the same? One monitor is set to 1.8 and the other to 2.2 - if everything else remains equal they should look like this: http://imageshack.us/a/img407/6302/gammadifference.jpg.

The key to the question is that it says view an image with "an embedded profile in a color managed application" which means the monitor profile is used to determine what standard the monitor is set for so the viewing application can change the image data to match the requirements of the embedded profile.  Since in either case it is the embedded profile which determines the final appearance, the usefulness of the two different monitor profiles is as an accurate starting point when adjusting the image data.  You don't end up viewing image data from the original file, and instead see adjusted data edited to match the embedded profile to the selected monitor.

Of course if the embedded profile does not produce an image that matches your printer output (for example because it was constructed for use with a different paper), then the displayed image will not be what you get when the image is printed.

That is one reason that I do not prefer to have color managed by each application, and prefer to ignore embedded profiles by default.  Those do work for some people's workflow, but is awkward for the work that I typically do.  I usually want to see everything in one partricular manner regardless of the viewing program or the embedded profile.  For example when working on images for web display everything looks approximately correct for an sRGB monitor set for 6500K or higher (many default to above 9000K), with gamma 2.2 and with slightly excessive brightness for the environment.  That means it won't be far off for most web viewers.  But when working on print jobs, one of several other monitor profiles are more appropriate.

I don't work to the lowest common denominator of color management, and instead fine tune color management to the specific workflow being used, which is optimized for more flexibility in areas of more significance for time or other efficiency.
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Lupin

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #56 on: October 26, 2013, 10:24:26 am »

I still don't get it -  ??? - maybe I'm missing the point behind Eric's question.

He asked if an image with an embedded profile would look the same on two identical monitors (one at 1.8, one at 2.2) when opened in a colour managed application.

I only have one monitor so let's suppose I simulate having two by using this (very extreme) scenario:

Create ColorNavigator Target A - 100cd / 5500K / Gamma 1.0
Create ColorNavigator Target B - 100cd / 5500K / Gamma 2.6
Open the 40MB Outback ProPhoto RGB test image in Photoshop CS6 (with working space: ProPhoto RGB)

If I do nothing else but switch the CG241 from Target A to Target B (simulating monitor A and monitor B), the appearance of the test image changes dramatically - it certainly does not look the same. If Target A is 1.8 and Target B is 2.2, the change would be far less dramatic but the test image would still look different.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2013, 10:26:13 am by Lupin »
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D Fosse

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #57 on: October 26, 2013, 10:25:03 am »

Quote
How can they look the same?

Welcome to color management. This is a standard profile conversion, and source gamma encoding (document profile) is remapped into destination gamma encoding (monitor profile). This, remember, is a precise description of the monitor's actual behavior, whatever gamma it is calibrated to. The net result is linear. It doesn't matter what the respective gamma values are on either side of this conversion.

Exactly the same thing happens when you convert from Adobe RGB (gamma 2.2) to ProPhoto (gamma 1.8 ).

Without color management you don't have this translation and a 2.2 encoded file must be viewed on a 2.2 display (or any other equal relationship).
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D Fosse

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #58 on: October 26, 2013, 10:32:05 am »

When you switch from calibration target A to target B, you also need to relaunch Photoshop (or whatever CM'ed app you use for viewing), so that it can pick up the corresponding profile and make the proper conversion for the display.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2013, 10:33:50 am by D Fosse »
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Lupin

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #59 on: October 26, 2013, 10:37:41 am »

When you switch from calibration target A to target B, you also need to relaunch Photoshop (or whatever CM'ed app you use for viewing), so that it can pick up the corresponding profile and make the proper conversion for the display.

Ah, ok - that answers it.
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