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Author Topic: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?  (Read 18096 times)

Floyd Davidson

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2013, 08:11:35 pm »

This thread has deteriorated somewhat into noise, but just to keep one thing clear: In a color managed environment, monitor gamma is "invisible". Source profile gamma is remapped into monitor gamma. So all this discussion about gamma is moot. What you aim for by setting monitor gamma is simply to make the monitor perform well, and that's usually accomplished by staying close to native.

The monitor's hardware adjustment is simply to make the monitor perform well, and that is not what has been discussed.  The discussion is about the target for the calibration process, and hence what the monitor shows when there is color management.

Quote
Outside color management is a different matter. And that's where the Scientific American article repeatedly referred to belongs. Authoritative, maybe, but without a trace of modern color management.

The article specifically discusses calibration of a monitor for a color managed system.
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Czornyj

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2013, 11:54:31 pm »

The article specifically discusses calibration of a monitor for a color managed system.
...in 90's.
Take two displays, calibrate one of them to gamma 2,2 and second to gamma 1,8, create display profiles.  Then open same test image on both monitors in a colour managed application - they'll look exactly the same.

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JRSmit

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2013, 03:17:01 am »

I'm using an Eizo CG241W calibrated with a ColorMunki Photo via Eizo's Color Navigator 6 software.

I 'm editing Nikon files in Photoshop CS6 & Capture NX2 and want the monitor to match my prints as closely as possible.

I've been using the ColorMunki to calibrate the Eizo to 5500K and wonder if this is the best temperature to choose.

Doses anyone have any advice?

 


Send a file to your commercial printshop. Then take thar print and put it under a daylight lamp. Then compare with image on your screen. Do the same with a white paper from yohr printshop. Match the luminace amd white point of your monitor to get a match or as close as possible. Also read andrew's article why are my prints too dark. That is all.
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D Fosse

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2013, 03:31:36 am »

The article specifically discusses calibration of a monitor for a color managed system.

No, it doesn't. You, and the good professor, both seem to miss the distinction between calibration (a basic device modification), and monitor profile (a description of the device in its current state).

A color managed application like Lightroom or Photoshop doesn't care whether the monitor is calibrated or not. It's irrelevant for the purpose. All it cares about is the profile, the description. A standard color management chain converts from a source profile to a destination profile, and that's exactly what happens here. The document profile is converted directly to the monitor profile and that is what goes to the display. IOW, the calibration is not part of the color management chain.

From a color management perspective, a reasonably good monitor doesn't need to be calibrated beyond setting the white point (which then becomes simply "white"). It just needs to be profiled.

(You might want to set the black point as well, but leave that out for now).

I'm sure professor Jim Perkins is a great scholar, but he's very out of date regarding color management. Everything he's saying in that article relates to using non-color managed software. That's the extent of its "authority".
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 03:35:03 am by D Fosse »
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Floyd Davidson

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2013, 06:32:38 am »

No, it doesn't. You, and the good professor, both seem to miss the distinction between calibration (a basic device modification), and monitor profile (a description of the device in its current state).

The "good professor" in fact discussed calibration using various hardware devices, listing several from Pantone, Datacolor and X-Rite in Part One.  The purpose of using these devices, which is what the article discusses, is to generate a profile of the monitor.

It appears that you may be assuming the article is about the hardware configuration of the monitor, which it is not.

Quote
A color managed application like Lightroom or Photoshop doesn't care whether the monitor is calibrated or not. It's irrelevant for the purpose. All it cares about is the profile, the description.

The purpose of calibration is to produce the profile.  Absent calibration there is no profile and therefore no real color managed system at all.

Quote
A standard color management chain converts from a source profile to a destination profile, and that's exactly what happens here. The document profile is converted directly to the monitor profile and that is what goes to the display. IOW, the calibration is not part of the color management chain.

A "document profile" cannot be converted directly to a "monitor profile" absent a profile of the display device having been made with a calibrator.  IOW, the display device characteristics that are profiled play a very important part in a color managed system.

Quote
From a color management perspective, a reasonably good monitor doesn't need to be calibrated beyond setting the white point (which then becomes simply "white"). It just needs to be profiled.

Calibration is the method by which a profile is produced.

Quote
(You might want to set the black point as well, but leave that out for now).

I'm sure professor Jim Perkins is a great scholar, but he's very out of date regarding color management. Everything he's saying in that article relates to using non-color managed software. That's the extent of its "authority".

He knows that calibrating a monitor produces a profile of the monitor.

"The sensor measures a series of colors on your screen and creates a “profile” that brings your display to a reference state."   Datacolor's description of calibrating a monitor at <http://spyder.datacolor.com/portfolio-view/spyder4elite/>.

"monitor profiles are prepared when conducting calibration"  Eizo's description of calibrating a monitor at <http://www.eizo.com/global/library/management/calibration/>.
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Lupin

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2013, 06:57:07 am »

Have you asked the lab what colourspaces they can handle ?
Do they expect images in a specific colourspace ?What do you mean by that ?
Have you just soft proofed to the printer profile ? or assigned a printer profile ? or converted to a printer profile ? the last two almost certainly would be a wrong approach.
 

The lab advises sending files either in sRGB or with one of their profiles applied (the profile used depends on the paper chosen by the client).

For editing - I start with a NEF, make the initial adjustments in NX2 and save as a ProPhoto RGB TIFF. Then I do the rest of the edit in CS6 and save as a PSD file.

For printing - to prepare the file for the lab I'll open the PSD in CS6, apply the lab's paper profile using the 'convert to profile' option, then save as a differently-named TIFF.  This is the file that will go to the printer.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 07:00:07 am by Lupin »
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D Fosse

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2013, 07:34:21 am »

Quote
The purpose of calibration is to produce the profile.

I give up. I don't have time for this. This is totally confused, and not mere semantics.

Anyone else?
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Rhossydd

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2013, 07:53:12 am »

The lab advises sending files either in sRGB or with one of their profiles applied...............
Sounds like you're across the issue pretty well.

Andrew's advice (Digitaldog) reply #1 is the best to follow. Get a known image printed by them, then adjust CT to provide the best match in the expected viewing conditions.
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Lupin

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2013, 08:04:32 am »


Andrew's advice (Digitaldog) reply #1 is the best to follow. Get a known image printed by them, then adjust CT to provide the best match in the expected viewing conditions.

Yes, I'll send them the 40MB test image (Outback's) and get them to print on the chosen paper.

The Eizo is currently on 5500K and looks a tad warm - so I suspect the print will be slightly blue in comparison. I reckon changing to 5750 or 6000K (or somewhere between the two) will give the most accurate match to the test print.
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Floyd Davidson

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2013, 08:11:19 am »

I give up. I don't have time for this. This is totally confused, and not mere semantics.

Anyone else?

I suspect that it actually is sematics.  All of these words for parts of the process are used in sometimes narrow ways, and at other times are overloaded wtih broader meanings.

Generating a profile of the monitor's characteristics is part of "calibration".  But calibration also includes configuration of the monitor itself and it also includes software configuration of the video card (look up tables, for example) and possibly software configuration of either the OS or other system software (video drivers, graphic display systems, etc).

The point is, and has all along been, that Jim Perkins absolutely was speaking of "calibration" using hardware calibrators and he absolutely was discussing the entire range of configurations including generation of a monitor profile.

And his discussion was clearly intended for a system using color managed applications.
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D Fosse

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2013, 09:07:17 am »

Let me just say one thing, and then I'll leave it:

Without a clear linguistic distinction between calibration and profiling, the underlying mechanics and processes are obscured and any meaningful discussion impossible. If it's all indiscriminately lumped under the heading "calibration", entropy goes up and understanding down.

Precise language is essential. Calibration is one thing. A monitor profile is something else. Yes, the calibration LUT is often embedded in the profile, simply because it's a convenient place to store it, and I suspect this is the basis for much of this confusion. But they're still separate with separate functions.

Again: calibration is not part of the color management chain. Color management relies solely on the profile, which is made after the calibration, not during it, and is entirely independent from it.

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Floyd Davidson

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2013, 09:24:07 am »

Again: calibration is not part of the color management chain. Color management relies solely on the profile, which is made after the calibration, not during it, and is entirely independent from it.

A profile is generated using the hardware calibration equipment and the measurements made with it that are used for other parts of the calibration process.  The profile is not independent from the rest of the process, it is merely the end of the entire process.
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Christoph C. Feldhaim

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2013, 09:25:50 am »

I'm using an Eizo CG243W in 10 bit mode connected to display port with the following calibration settings (DTP 94 puck):

Luminosity: 100 cd/m²
Color Temperature:5500 K
Gamma: L*

Luminosity above 100 gave me dark prints, 6500 K gave too warm prints, Gamma values messed my shadows toning.
With the values above I'm quite happy, but of course thats all workplace and exhibition place dependent.

E.G: my PC workplace doesn't have a white painting but some apricot-orange like walls - pros might sigh at this.
But much of the walls is covered by bookshelves with white and mixed colors from the books.
I usually have the room light quite dim here, so 100 cd/m² is bright for this situation and the walls don't mess up my color vision too much.
After printing I turn up the light (halogenide indirect light against the white ceiling) to judge color.
Exhibition places vary, but are mostly a mixed daylight/halogenide Tungsten situation.

Printer is an Epson 7890, printing on Moab Summerset and Ilford Gold Fibre Silk papers

Hope that helped a little

Cheers
 ~Chris.

Addendum:
If you like to go really deep into that color stuff (beyond the questions of mere calibrating or profiling) I recommend this book by
Mark D. Fairchild: "Color Appearance Models"
website: http://www.cis.rit.edu/fairchild/CAM.html
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 09:34:53 am by Christoph C. Feldhaim »
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Rhossydd

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2013, 09:57:26 am »

Luminosity above 100 gave me dark prints, 6500 K gave too warm prints, Gamma values messed my shadows toning.
To be pedantic. Those values caused you edit your images wrongly, they didn't change the image data at all.
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Christoph C. Feldhaim

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2013, 10:26:01 am »

To be pedantic. Those values caused you edit your images wrongly, they didn't change the image data at all.

Agreed - its pedantic ... ;)

Lupin

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2013, 10:40:46 am »

I'm using an Eizo CG243W in 10 bit mode connected to display port with the following calibration settings (DTP 94 puck):

Luminosity: 100 cd/m²
Color Temperature:5500 K
Gamma: L*

Luminosity above 100 gave me dark prints, 6500 K gave too warm prints, Gamma values messed my shadows toning.
With the values above I'm quite happy, but of course thats all workplace and exhibition place dependent.


I'm not sure what L* is - I've seen it at the right end of ColorNavigator's gamma adjustment slider but don't I know why it's called L* instead of a number (such as 2.7). What does it mean?
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Czornyj

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2013, 10:43:58 am »

I'm not sure what L* is - I've seen it at the right end of ColorNavigator's gamma adjustment slider but don't I know why it's called L* instead of a number (such as 2.7). What does it mean?

It's tonal response curve of L*a*b colour space, it doesn't match any gamma curve
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 10:47:47 am by Czornyj »
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Lupin

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2013, 10:58:54 am »

It's tonal response curve of L*a*b colour space, it doesn't match any gamma curve

What is the advantage of using it?
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Christoph C. Feldhaim

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2013, 11:08:59 am »

What is the advantage of using it?

Gamma basically is a relict from the times of cathod ray tube monitors.
My impression is that I get better results from L* with modern LCD screens.
I won't go into the depths of L*a*b here, just so far, that its a color space designed to roughly linearize the numbers representing colors with the subjective perception of colors in a way that you'll feel something being double as bright when the L value is doubled, and same for color in an analogue way.
There have been perception tests made in the past with individuals judging color to achieve that.
But L*a*b is not perfect and you can get nasty color casts when using it in the wrong way - but this is only when using it in Photoshop or elsewhere as a working colorspace - that problem has nothing to do with that monitor calibration thing.
But thats another story.

I'd suggest just try it and see how the tones of your screen and your prints match when using it, especially the shadows.

Cheers
~Chris
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 11:12:48 am by Christoph C. Feldhaim »
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Lupin

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2013, 11:18:18 am »

.......
I'd suggest just try it and see how the tones of your screen and your prints match when using it, especially the shadows.

Cheers
~Chris

Ok, I'll create a profile using L* with 5500K and see what it looks like. My CG241 won't do 10 bit though (unlike your CG243) - I don't think my HD6700 graphics card will either :'(
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