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Author Topic: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?  (Read 17962 times)

Lupin

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Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« on: October 23, 2013, 11:40:25 am »

I'm using an Eizo CG241W calibrated with a ColorMunki Photo via Eizo's Color Navigator 6 software.

I 'm editing Nikon files in Photoshop CS6 & Capture NX2 and want the monitor to match my prints as closely as possible.

I've been using the ColorMunki to calibrate the Eizo to 5500K and wonder if this is the best temperature to choose.

Doses anyone have any advice?

 

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digitaldog

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2013, 12:41:58 pm »

I've been using the ColorMunki to calibrate the Eizo to 5500K and wonder if this is the best temperature to choose.
The best temperature value (which can vary) is that which produces a visual match.
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Lupin

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2013, 12:52:30 pm »

The best temperature value (which can vary) is that which produces a visual match.

I haven't had them printed yet (I'll be using a lab) so I can't tell which produces the best visual match.

To my eye 6500K looks very blue on the Eizo and calibrating to that could produce prints that are far too warm. 5500K looks 'about right' but then so does 6000K.
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tived

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2013, 11:48:33 pm »

do some test prints to satisfy yourself - and share it

Henrik


I use 6500k
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Lupin

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2013, 07:42:32 am »

I use 6500k


Do the whites on your monitor look blue(ish) at 6500K?
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D Fosse

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2013, 08:01:22 am »

To my eye 6500K looks very blue on the Eizo

Me too. Well, not very blue, but blueish. I have settled for 6200, which seems to me to match "standard" paper color very well - in my work environment. As already said, you need to try for yourself.
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Lupin

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2013, 08:14:30 am »

Me too. Well, not very blue, but blueish. I have settled for 6200, which seems to me to match "standard" paper color very well - in my work environment. As already said, you need to try for yourself.

Yes, I suppose I'd better get some test prints made.

6200 still looks slightly blue to me. White looks accurate at somewhere between 5500 and 6000 on this CG241 - so 5750 is perhaps the best option. I'm keeping brightness at 100cd or below (via ColorNavigator) and the Eizo's auto brightness regulator switched off. Ambient light in the room is kept pretty constant by keeping the window blinds closed.
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Floyd Davidson

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2013, 08:41:28 am »

Doses anyone have any advice?

Download a "standard" test image, have it printed at whichever print shop you will be using.  That will provide a reference to work with.  Of course for those who do their own printing the test image provides a standard to adjust their printer against too.

With a "standard" print you can view it in the appropriate light (i.e., wherever it is your eventual product will be viewed, whether that is idea or not) and see how you will want it to appear when displayed on your monitor.

Here is the test image I've used for many years:  http://digitaldog.net/files/Printer%20Test%20file.jpg

Here is another very good image,   Note that it can be downloaded as a 40Mb TIFF file, down at the bottom of this page:  http://www.outbackphoto.com/printinginsights/pi048/essay.html

And best of all about that image, here is a detailed essay on how to use it:  http://www.outbackphoto.com/printinginsights/pi049/essay.html

Whether you use a commacial print lab and just want a reference for what they produce, or for use with your own printer, eventually the test image provides a standard against which the monitor display is configured during calibration.  Brightness, gamma (contrast), and color temperature parameters are set to provide a match between the monitor's display and the paper print.

And, incidentally there are people who find anything from 80 to 160 cd/m correct for brightness (it depends mostly on the ambient light at your monitor's location), anything from 4500K to at least 6500K for color temperature, and anything from less that 1.8 to more than 2.5 for gamma.  I suspect that those last two vary mostly with the color under which the print is viewed and the intensity of the light for gamma.

Another point to note is that there are people here on Lula who get pretty hot about this topic and tend to be a bit nasty about it too.  They probably should be ignored on this any any other topic too...

Here is another well written authoritative discussion of this topic, with good perspective.  It is written by Jim Perkins, a professor at Rochester Institute of Technology.

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/symbiartic/2012/01/17/how-to-calibrate-your-monitor/

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Czornyj

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2013, 09:02:22 am »

Here is another well written authoritative discussion of this topic, with good perspective.  It is written by Jim Perkins, a professor at Rochester Institute of Technology.

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/symbiartic/2012/01/17/how-to-calibrate-your-monitor/

You call it "well written"? With "good perspective"?  ::) :D :-X

Quit joking and read something serious:
http://oicherman.com/Boris/Science/Boris_Oicherman_Phd_thesis.pdf
« Last Edit: October 24, 2013, 09:04:19 am by Czornyj »
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Lupin

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2013, 09:14:25 am »

Many thanks for all the info Floyd.

I'll download the test images you suggested and will get the lab to print them (together with one of my own for comparison) at say 5500, 5750 and 6000K. The question now is which gamma setting to use.

I've read Jim's article - he suggests a gamma of 1.8 for photographic print work - what do you think of using this instead of 2.2? All of the calibrations options I've produced with the ColorMunki Photo are at 2.2 - maybe I should make another set of options at 1.8 and get the lab to make six prints of each test image, i.e. 5500/5750/6000 at 2.2 and 5500/5750/6000 at 1.8.

EDIT - Actually, I can't figure out whether he's recommending 1.8 for print work (as in photography) or for print work (as in books) ???
« Last Edit: October 24, 2013, 09:38:05 am by Lupin »
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tived

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2013, 09:16:49 am »

Damn Czornyj,

is it summarized somewhere?  ;D 281 pages! Well, not tonight honey!

thanks for sharing

Henrik
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Czornyj

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2013, 09:27:42 am »

Chapter 5., p. 267 - Conclusions :)
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Floyd Davidson

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2013, 09:44:35 am »

You call it "well written"? With "good perspective"?  ::) :D :-X

Quit joking and read something serious:
http://oicherman.com/Boris/Science/Boris_Oicherman_Phd_thesis.pdf

That is pretty good material, except it is a PhD thesis and does not provide even the slightest persective for the OP.  In fact though, he can get exactly that!  Yep, the cited article by Perkins gives a pretty good perspective on what the PhD thesis says.  There is no disagreement between them.  

For example, it seems that a number of people do like a more bluish looking monitor screen than measurements would suggest as correct.  The thesis  says, "On average, observers used more blue light to match the paint sample on computer displays than the CIE Standard Colorimetric Observer predicts."  Their experiments verified the discrepancy.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2013, 09:46:15 am by Floyd Davidson »
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Floyd Davidson

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2013, 10:15:14 am »

Many thanks for all the info Floyd.

I'll download the test images you suggested and will get the lab to print them (together with one of my own for comparison) at say 5500, 5750 and 6000K. The question now is which gamma setting to use.

Keep in mind that the data in the image file is "correct".  You do not want to edit or change it in anyway.  Do not open it with PhotoShop and add a profile for printing before sending it off the the printer!  What you want to see is what the printer (yours or the commercial lab) does with "correct" data.

Quote
I've read Jim's article - he suggests a gamma of 1.8 for photographic print work - what do you think of using this instead of 2.2? All of the calibrations options I've produced with the ColorMunki Photo are at 2.2 - maybe I should make another set of options at 1.8 and get the lab to make six prints of each test image, i.e. 5500/5750/6000 at 2.2 and 5500/5750/6000 at 1.8.

EDIT - Actually, I can't figure out whether he's recommending 1.8 for print work (as in photography) or for print work (as in books) ???

He is talking about making prints.  Or actually about the monitor calibaration for editing images that will be printed.  Again, the test print is an example of "correct" data.  It is the "standard" to compare to.

The essay on how to use a test print, at http://www.outbackphoto.com/printinginsights/pi049/essay.html can help a great deal with how to decide brightness, color temperature, and gamma configuration parameters, both for a printer and a monitor.  If you have a print driver that allows adjustments you might want to fine tune brightness, contrast, density, and saturation using a test print to determine what is "correct".  Then it should be profiled with a ColorMonki to get correct colors across the entire tonal range.  If you use a commercial printer, just send them that file and get a print.  That is what you get from them when the image data is "correct".

The cited essay goes into more detail, but essentially you'll choose a gamma value by looking at the gray ramp.  In that particular test print they have a very good ramp, with black values from 0 to 25 and with white values from 243 to 255.  Ramps that show full stops are not fine enough granularity to give precise results.  (Basically, everything with a value of less that 20 is going to be black, and all above 246 or so is going to be white.  Not that there is not variation, but there is not enough to see any fine detail in an image.  Your printer and monitor should each be configured for a gamma that provides that result.)

With either a commercial print lab or a local printer the computer monitor that will be used to edit other images needs to be first configured for brightness, gamma, and color temperature so that it closely matches the test print produced by the target printer.  Then it too is profiled to provide correct colors across the tonal range.

At that point you have an "accurate" system.  It is never going to be perfect, but that will be as close as is possible.  What you see on the monitor will be essentially what it will look like when printed.
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Lupin

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2013, 11:13:37 am »

Keep in mind that the data in the image file is "correct".  You do not want to edit or change it in anyway.  Do not open it with PhotoShop and add a profile for printing before sending it off the the printer!  What you want to see is what the printer (yours or the commercial lab) does with "correct" data.

Ok, I won't alter the downloaded image files at all. According to two Exif viewers (KUSO and Photo-Me), the 406KB file from DigitalDog is ColorMatch RGB and the 40MB file from Outback is ProPhoto RGB. My Photoshop CS6 is set up for ProPhoto RGB so it wouldn't alter the Outback image anyway. Is there any advantage to test-printing both of these or will the Outback file be sufficient?

He is talking about making prints.  Or actually about the monitor calibaration for editing images that will be printed.  Again, the test print is an example of "correct" data.  It is the "standard" to compare to.

Ok.

The essay on how to use a test print, at http://www.outbackphoto.com/printinginsights/pi049/essay.html can help a great deal with how to decide brightness, color temperature, and gamma configuration parameters, both for a printer and a monitor.  If you have a print driver that allows adjustments you might want to fine tune brightness, contrast, density, and saturation using a test print to determine what is "correct".  Then it should be profiled with a ColorMonki to get correct colors across the entire tonal range.  If you use a commercial printer, just send them that file and get a print.  That is what you get from them when the image data is "correct".

The cited essay goes into more detail, but essentially you'll choose a gamma value by looking at the gray ramp.  In that particular test print they have a very good ramp, with black values from 0 to 25 and with white values from 243 to 255.  Ramps that show full stops are not fine enough granularity to give precise results.  (Basically, everything with a value of less that 20 is going to be black, and all above 246 or so is going to be white.  Not that there is not variation, but there is not enough to see any fine detail in an image.  Your printer and monitor should each be configured for a gamma that provides that result.)

With either a commercial print lab or a local printer the computer monitor that will be used to edit other images needs to be first configured for brightness, gamma, and color temperature so that it closely matches the test print produced by the target printer.  Then it too is profiled to provide correct colors across the tonal range.

At that point you have an "accurate" system.  It is never going to be perfect, but that will be as close as is possible.  What you see on the monitor will be essentially what it will look like when printed.


I'm in the middle of reading the 'printinginsights #049' essay. One question springs to mind - I don't have my own printer so I'll be using a commercial lab. My own image files already have the printer profile supplied by the lab, so no problem there - but what about the Outback 40MB test image? Should the lab use their own profile on this too - or should I tell them to use ProPhoto RGB?
 
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Floyd Davidson

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2013, 11:41:19 am »

Is there any advantage to test-printing both of these or will the Outback file be sufficient?

Oh, I expect that just the Outback file would be just fine.

Quote
Should the lab use their own profile on this too - or should I tell them to use ProPhoto RGB?

Good question.  I'm not positive, as I don't use a commercial print lab.

I'd try both, but I expect that using their profile is the right way to do it.
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Czornyj

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2013, 12:32:46 pm »

On the contrary - it makes it clear that the problem is extremely complicated, to some degree all observer models fail, and even in ideal condition there's no chance to find the magic numbers for calibration target that will produce perfect visual match.

Furthermore, there are other variables like spectra of the light, remission curve of paper, amount of OBA, precision of the sensor, viewing conditions and so on...

That is pretty good material, except it is a PhD thesis and does not provide even the slightest persective for the OP.  In fact though, he can get exactly that!  Yep, the cited article by Perkins gives a pretty good perspective on what the PhD thesis says.  There is no disagreement between them.
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Floyd Davidson

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2013, 12:40:58 pm »

On the contrary - it makes it clear that the problem is extremely complicated, to some degree all observer models fail, and even in ideal condition there's no chance to find the magic numbers for calibration target that will produce perfect visual match.

Furthermore, there are other variables like spectra of the light, remission curve of paper, amount of OBA, precision of the sensor, viewing conditions and so on...


Wonderful, but between you and the thesis, there is nothing there for the OP.
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Rhossydd

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2013, 01:54:04 pm »

Ok, I won't alter the downloaded image files at all....
 ColorMatch RGB......
ProPhoto RGB........
 I'll be using a commercial lab.......
Have you asked the lab what colourspaces they can handle ?
Do they expect images in a specific colourspace ?
Quote
My own image files already have the printer profile supplied by the lab, so no problem there.....
What do you mean by that ?
Have you just soft proofed to the printer profile ? or assigned a printer profile ? or converted to a printer profile ? the last two almost certainly would be a wrong approach.
Details like this are where people get things wrong.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2013, 06:04:42 pm by Rhossydd »
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D Fosse

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Re: Eizo & ColorMunki - which color temperature to match prints?
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2013, 05:50:23 pm »

the computer monitor that will be used to edit other images needs to be first configured for brightness, gamma, and color temperature

This thread has deteriorated somewhat into noise, but just to keep one thing clear: In a color managed environment, monitor gamma is "invisible". Source profile gamma is remapped into monitor gamma. So all this discussion about gamma is moot. What you aim for by setting monitor gamma is simply to make the monitor perform well, and that's usually accomplished by staying close to native.

Outside color management is a different matter. And that's where the Scientific American article repeatedly referred to belongs. Authoritative, maybe, but without a trace of modern color management.
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