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Author Topic: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update  (Read 126903 times)

digitaldog

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #440 on: July 25, 2014, 12:01:56 pm »

It's marketing hype if it comes from the mouth of marketing, but not when it describes the practice of trying to use Photoshop so you retain infinite editability.

http://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/using/nondestructive-editing.html
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Nondestructive editing allows you to make changes to an image without overwriting the original image data, which remains available in case you want to revert to it.
And again, a Save As... does exactly that! Undo does as well. The term is both ambiguous and unnecessary. But it sounds good hence the Marketing.
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john beardsworth

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #441 on: July 25, 2014, 12:11:20 pm »

Define the term narrowly if you will, but its usage has become broader, for good reasons.
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john beardsworth

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #442 on: July 25, 2014, 12:22:27 pm »

Avoiding unnecessary extra files is a reason for following non-destructive practices, while Undo only works within the Photoshop session.
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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #443 on: July 25, 2014, 12:27:59 pm »

Define the term narrowly if you will, but its usage has become broader, for good reasons.
But Schewe and I disagree, it's not for good reason. You've again failed to backup your POV, you're just jumping on the marketing hype bandwagon.
The definition given by Adobe doesn't imply, it agrees with my use of Save As or Undo as being non destructive, and both actions were around ages before Photoshop had layers or the silly term was used. If you want to use sloppy language or language which is ambiguous (which the term is) or you want to agree that all applications that can save off an iteration while leaving the original intact are non destructive, so be it.
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Saving extra files is a reason for applying non-destructive practices, while Undo only works within the Photoshop session.
Agreed, but by Adobe's own definition, those are STILL non destructive! The silly term doesn't take the number of extra files or the session into account; Nondestructive editing allows you to make changes to an image without overwriting the original image data. It simply defines a practice where the original isn't changed. If you really want that to occur, don't edit the data. If you do edit the data, the edits affect the subsequent numbers. Those numbers may be in a spun off document or not, but the facts and the effect on the data is clear; you've altered the numbers.
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john beardsworth

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #444 on: July 25, 2014, 12:38:11 pm »

No, I'm sticking closely to Jeff's infinite editability definition, not a marketing one. And you can pretend all you want that "I've again failed to backup your POV". Oh dear, so what didn't you understand about the obvious practical advantages of non destructive ways of working? Just try some of those techniques listed by Adobe, smart objects and smart filters for example. But hey, you can lead a horse to water....
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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #445 on: July 25, 2014, 12:43:14 pm »

And you can pretend all you want that "I've again failed to backup your POV". Oh dear, so what didn't you understand about the obvious practical advantages of non destructive ways of working? Just try some of those techniques listed by Adobe, smart objects and smart filters for example. But hey, you can lead a horse to water....
John, here's what I mean by your lack of POV. Adobe states: Nondestructive editing allows you to make changes to an image without overwriting the original image data, which remains available in case you want to revert to it. Does a Save As provide exactly what Adobe states is a non destructive workflow?  So how about a yes or no answer.
I fully understand the practical advantages, I'm stating that the term is unnecessarily as we had this capability even before Photoshop existed let alone when it got layers.
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john beardsworth

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #446 on: July 25, 2014, 01:22:09 pm »

No
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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #447 on: July 25, 2014, 02:28:25 pm »

No
Excellent, thank you. I didn't expect an answer. Now that we got this far, explain it.

I open a document in Photoshop that's never been edited.
I apply some curves and other edits.
I conduct a Save As command and save a new document to the hard drive.
I close the original document and do not save it.
Results (unless you can tell me what I'm missing): Original is as it was prior to opening in Photoshop. I made changes to an image without overwriting the original image data. New document has the edits. New document did undergo some data loss due to rounding errors (there was nothing non destructive in that case but as Jeff has pointed out, the iteration is improved over original).

Nondestructive editing (according to Adobe and others) allows you to make changes to an image without overwriting the original image data, and I just did that with the Save As command, which remains available in case I want to revert back to it. The original data isn't any different after working on it in Photoshop, it of course wasn't over-written.
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john beardsworth

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #448 on: July 25, 2014, 02:59:06 pm »

Yawn....
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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #449 on: July 25, 2014, 03:00:55 pm »

Yawn....
So you can't explain it. Kind of what I suspected, it would poke holes in your theory.
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john beardsworth

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #450 on: July 25, 2014, 03:45:02 pm »

You asked if something was the same as something different, I answer no, and you still need it explained??? You're not poking holes in any theory, just showing you have a problem distinguishing black from white. Time to give your head a quick wobble.
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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #451 on: July 25, 2014, 03:49:58 pm »

You asked if something was the same as something different, I answer no, and you still need it explained???
Yup. Unable to? Sure seems that way.
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ButchM

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #452 on: July 25, 2014, 05:43:14 pm »


I conduct a Save As command and save a new document to the hard drive.


As an unequivocal novice, compared to the two folks participating in this discussion ... to me "Save as" is different.

Save as, can accomplish the same task ... it also brings with it the extra burden of an additional file for each occurrence it is invoked.

Conversely, using adjustment layers, with the original base layer in tact, keeps the clutter to a minimum allowing adjustment, alterations and versioning utilizing a single file. Thus allowing the effort of processing a single file for use in different mediums without maintaining a separate file for each purpose.

Form a pont of semantics the descriptive terms may be for the benefit of marketing efforts, though I much prefer adjustment layers that can be turned off, adjusted, further enhanced, added and deleted as necessary to dealing with the addition of a completely separate file each and every instance I need to perform such tasks.

While I do realize that storage space is inexpensive and organizing our assists has has been greatly simplified ... I'd rather avoid all the clutter. No matter how you prefer to slice the definition of specific terms (or the purpose of their use) to describe the options to achieving the desired goal.
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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #453 on: July 25, 2014, 06:01:14 pm »

Save as, can accomplish the same task ... it also brings with it the extra burden of an additional file for each occurrence it is invoked.
I agree! 100%! That's not what I'm asking of John. Adobe has made a very simple statement in defining what they mean by non destructive editing. I've copied and pasted it more than once. I'm asking John how a Save As doesn't produce the same results they (Adobe) say makes software non destructive. There's no question that what Photoshop provides is vastly more flexible and useful than the Save As command. That isn't the issue or argument. We're talking about a term that I feel is mostly B.S., that described as it is by Adobe could be said of thousands of other applications.

Jeff's term (infinitely re-editable) makes more sense, but non destructive sounds so sexy and as if you are not "destroying" anything. If we're talking about the data from an edit isn't true.

John is simply buying into marketing semantics and can't explain how a Save As does not do what Adobe says makes a product non destructive (make changes to an image without overwriting the original image data).
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lhodaniel

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #454 on: July 25, 2014, 06:10:37 pm »

Forgive me if this has already been stated. I just didn't have the time to go back through all 23 pages of this thread. I've mellowed a bit on CC after the Photography Bundle was made "permanent" and LR5 continues access functionality without subscription. I now subscribe to that. What I now want from Adobe is better a la carte pricing. I'd like to have Acrobat, but not at $20 a month forever. Similarly, I now just do stills but might want to jump into video. I'd like to get PP to learn it and play with it, but not at $20 a month more while it isn't generating revenue. PE is not an option. I tried that, and preferred Corel Video Studio to it. As much as I hate cable companies, they get bundling and pricing of same much better than Adobe does at this point.
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john beardsworth

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #455 on: July 26, 2014, 03:41:25 am »

No, again, I'm not "buying into marketing semantics". Just because you repeat that doesn't make it any more true, and it may just reveal your own blinkered outlook. And no, I'm not unable to explain, just unwilling to waste my time on those who can't, or won't, distinguish black from white or marketing hype from good practical techniques.

Doing a Save As in your example is just old-fashioned good practice when you open an original and create a derivative. Your question was so simplistic it's inane. What happens afterwards - to the derivative file - is what distinguishes what people mean by working non-destructively.

Traditionally you would reopen the file and do more work, something like transform or Silver Efex, for example. As your adjustment layers have masks (eg simulating a grad filter), you would need to get your pixels on a single layer. To avoid destroying anything, would you now apply your silly method of doing a Save As and Close, before continuing and flattening? Make another derivative file to meet your meaningless definition of non-destructive? You would? OMFG. Not very efficient, are we? But check on the big brain on you - in fact, you do have enough nous to create a new merged pixel layer, apply your Transform to this layer and close the file. The only way you can now fine tune the Transform or those adjustment layers is by discarding (ooh, destroying!) that new layer and repeating the previous steps.

The newer "non destructive" approach would be to convert those layers into a smart object, causing the Transform to apply as a smart filter. I still save and close, but my Transform edits remain fully editable. If I feel I need to edit the adjustment layers, I can do that. If I want to go back into the raw conversion, I can do that too. Infinitely-editable, non-destructive, good practice.

See the difference? Anyone else can.

John
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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #456 on: July 26, 2014, 09:08:34 am »

Doing a Save As in your example is just old-fashioned good practice when you open an original and create a derivative. Your question was so simplistic it's inane. What happens afterwards - to the derivative file - is what distinguishes what people mean by working non-destructively.
Yawn.... back at you. The practice is one thing, the results are what you continue to fail to either examine or admit shows how much marketing BS the Adobe quote represents (my point from the start which you wish to agrue about). You've failed to explain how the results of the Save As are any different from what Adobe claims explains as the non destructive workflow in the copy and paste of their text repeated more than once! And yes, the issue (and problem) is the silly understanding that distinguishes what people like you mean by working non-destructively. The Save As command, in terms of the original is just as non destructive, as the Marketing nonsense that I pasted from Adobe! A point you seem lost on understanding.
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See the difference? Anyone else can.
Speaking for everyone yet ButchM wrote:"
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Save as, can accomplish the same task ...
And I agree with him. Adobe's claim in defining what destructive workflow is, is weak marketing speak which you appear to agree with, see the difference?

Edit (time to move on). Here's the bottom line John. Some feel the term non destructive workflow is an ambiguous and largely marketing created term and I'm in that camp. You feel it isn't marketing hype (It's a bit more than a marketing term and is indeed broad enough to mean infinitely re-editable in common usage.)
I supplied Adobe's definition of the term and then illustrated that there are all kinds of ways to do this and that based on Adobe's simplistic and silly marketing term, any app with a Save As command produces the same results. And it does without any further need to explain the benefits of SO's, Layers etc. The term is bogus. Jeff's suggestion doesn't sound anywhere as sexy but sure makes more sense. You want to feel the term and explanation Adobe uses isn't Marketing Speak, go ahead but I think you fall into a camp that people complain some of us of being by defending it, an Adobe Fan Boy.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 09:27:03 am by digitaldog »
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john beardsworth

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #457 on: July 26, 2014, 09:37:24 am »

Ha ha. Looks like it's you doing all the whining about Adobe's example workflows and who doesn't have the wit to recognise how they're different from Save As. Poor you. Maybe stop chewing gum when you're trying to think?

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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #458 on: July 26, 2014, 10:22:29 am »

Ha ha. Looks like it's you doing all the whining about Adobe's example workflows and who doesn't have the wit to recognise how they're different from Save As. Poor you. Maybe stop chewing gum when you're trying to think?
Such language would suggest the adult known as John Beardsworth, who is unable to defined the definition by Adobe, has left the room.
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john beardsworth

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #459 on: July 26, 2014, 11:05:14 am »

Ooh, you do keep saying I'm unable to explain, even when I have done. Diddums. And that claim comes from someone quite unable to grasp a difference between Save As and non-destructive workflows? Haven't you got a brain the size of a planet?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 11:42:24 am by john beardsworth »
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